I'm currently running 25 lands and 4 manlands (2 ragine ravine 2 treetop) and am planning for some of the grindier matchups like control and midrange mirrors to board out a land. Question is, which land should I be cutting? I had a couple friends told me to board out a fetch but wondering if people had other suggestions.
I'm currently running 25 lands and 4 manlands (2 ragine ravine 2 treetop) and am planning for some of the grindier matchups like control and midrange mirrors to board out a land. Question is, which land should I be cutting? I had a couple friends told me to board out a fetch but wondering if people had other suggestions.
I would not suggest to do that. In attrition based matchups you actually want to grind and hit landdrops. Plus, with FoR being popular, you cant do that.
Its actually the opposite: Against fast aggro and combo matches where you can cut a land. And in that case, I would cut the fourth basic primarily.
What's your experience against the new BBE Ponza decks? Tested against the deck yesterday and it always felt like an uphill battle. Stone Rain, Blood Moon and threats like Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon are a big problem for Jund, especially when being on the draw.
Edit: (Postboard) Knowing they boarded in several Baloths, would you board out Lili, gamble with +1 or only use her edict effect?
With BBE it gets worse for us I think. I always had the impression that Ponza often looses to itself, as they can have really bad topdecks later in the game. Its really about surviving the first wave of their spells to be in a good shape. Thats why a turn 1 discard spell or a bolt for their dork is really great.
About Baloths, I am not sure. What I have seen, those are less played than before. I would just ignore it I think, since LoTV is a real powerhouse against the deck to rip their hand apart. The ulti from Lili is also often game over. It is quite hard if you 100 % know they have baloths though. I think I would certainly not board out all copies of her at the very least.
What's your experience against the new BBE Ponza decks? Tested against the deck yesterday and it always felt like an uphill battle. Stone Rain, Blood Moon and threats like Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon are a big problem for Jund, especially when being on the draw.
Edit: (Postboard) Knowing they boarded in several Baloths, would you board out Lili, gamble with +1 or only use her edict effect?
I watched Cory's mining video on TCG, and i was like, "yeah, man, I have most of those staples in paper and mtgo, let me try it out"
I did not think the deck was good, and BBE doesn't push this into tier 1. The problem with Ponza is that it still has to play a bunch of bad cards. Obviously, when it gets rolling it feels unbeatable, but some of it's openers seriously fall apart to either a turn 1 discard or turn 1 removal. The deck really has trouble establishing against pressure if it doesn't have a moon and threat quickly.
I would just keep playing LOTV against them, we can't play afraid against them, they'll beat us in the long game.
Ponza is maybe tier 2 now? I think the deck still kinda sucks, though, it has so many bad topdecks.
I still think Hollow One is the busted deck that's going to give jund players a fit.
Also, I agree, I think a lot of blue matchups got easier and closer.
Grixis feels like the toughest matchup now, since they're so dense with removal. I've found fulminator mage less impressive against their deck compared to UW and Jeskai. However, Creeping Tarpit and Azcanta are still things.
Outside of Grixis, I absolutely do not feel unfavored against blue decks now, it's definitely become a skill matchup now. Not that it wasn't before, but in the past we couldn't handle all their answers.
What's your experience against the new BBE Ponza decks? Tested against the deck yesterday and it always felt like an uphill battle. Stone Rain, Blood Moon and threats like Inferno Titan and Stormbreath Dragon are a big problem for Jund, especially when being on the draw.
Edit: (Postboard) Knowing they boarded in several Baloths, would you board out Lili, gamble with +1 or only use her edict effect?
The matchup is how it always is, it really hasn't changed. Early disruption followed up by a goyf is where you wanna be. Make sure to fetch your basic forest before anything so you can play your 'threat' creatures under a Blood Moon. With BBE I think our deck improved more than theirs. I've had mull to 5's beat that deck quite frequently.
I personally board out LoTV in most potential Baloth situation. It's so backbreaking to our deck (which is why I give a sideboard slot to the card). LoTV's edict effect isn't too good here anyways since they got dorks and cards that don't matter in the long-run. But then again, it's all how you set up the deck post-sideboard. My feelings are different than @FlyingDelver's
Heart of the cards, man. Would you stop ticking LOTV up against Titanshift because of Baloth?
The edict isn't what makes LOTV so good, it's destroying the resources in their hand.
Ponza feels like a mixed bag to play against, it never feels easy, but it feels 50/50ish.
Well, you have a point. I wouldn't stop ticking her up if I still have her in the deck post-board. Usually I side them out.
Against them, targeted discard is the way to go. My reasoning on this is that in Titanshift and Scapeshift, I don't think every card in their deck matters in the matchup. Only certain cards like Through the Breach, Scapeshift, Titan's, Bring to Light, and other combo-centric matter. In our deck, I believe that EVERY card of ours matters. So I prefer to approach them with low cost selective hand disruption with thoughtseize, inquisition, and collective brutality.
That being said, assessing the two modes on LoTV; her +1 is now not exactly to our benefit because some of their cards don't matter and all of ours do. And her -2 doesn't matter much either thanks to dorks or hasty breaching. Which, in my opinion, makes her mediocre at best; and our deck trims mediocre cards for other cards post board.
I've found the happy medium to be playing and ticking up Liliana in situations where I can defend her against a Baloth. So, not jamming her turn 3 with only a Confidant in play, sequencing Goyf on turn 2 instead of other two drops, or waiting to play her until having 4 or 5 lands in play to hold up a removal spell. I do usually shave one or two in this matchup, though, because double black can be challenging against Ponza.
The Grixis matchup is interesting. Because most of their spells are just 1-for-1, I've been thinking that I shouldn't be boarding up to 6 discard spells, and should just try to overload their removal. I also think that Lightning Bolt might be a card worth leaving in, because they generally don't gain life back after they've lost it (vs Jeskai playing Lightning Helix), so just whittling them down and burning them out for the last couple points is a very real option. I haven't gotten to try it yet, but I'm interested in cutting my hard removal (Terminate, Fatal Push), shaving a bolt, and shaving down on my discard spells to bring in Finks, Fulminator, and maybe a single Nihil Spellbomb. This approach is probably less reasonable against versions of the deck running AV.
Monday, my opponent had Jace on board and brainstorming for like---6 turns. He just couldn't keep up. I put down Bob, Bob, Goyf, Goyf, BBE. And I made him use his mana awkwardly to kill Ravine. Going wide against them is real, though you really have to be careful not go get blown out by anger of the gods (which is legit against us).
I wouldn't leave the bolt in against them, just overload them. I do think I cut all removal except for terminate since I saw Tasigur.
I think the key to beating Grixis is not letting them tap out how they would like to.
Oh, also, I think on the draw Kitchen Finks is hysterical against them, they only play 1x anger in the side usually, and if Tasigur isn't out there to wall it off, thats two spells they need to burn, or a snap+bolt interaction.
While I find kitchen finks underwhelming against Jeskai and UW, I find it great against grixis
I think you have to tick LoTV up against Ponza regardless of Obstinate Baloth. LoTV is one of the best cards we have them because of her +1 ability which can tear their hand apart which is exactly what we want to do. Obstinate Baloth doesn't change that, you simply can't afford to board her out not to play her because you fear of Baloth.
If they have it they do, but otherwise she will always do a good work for us.
And I would simply disagree. Again, only certain cards matter. They can still run us over with titans, PK Nallar, and their BBE's. Them having an empty hand is only an extension of what is truly effective, which is taking away their power cards, and leaving them with the cards that do nothing or we can work around i.e. dorks, stone rain abilities, and Blood Moon (if you get lucky fetches).
Grixis is without a doubt the most difficult Control deck to beat. It might sound controversial because I am not a big fan of the card in our sb, but Surgical Extraction is a powerhouse against them. Yes this matchup is all about attrition and Surgical is usually a very bad card in these kind of matchups but taking their K-command or Snap is basically game over. Inifnite loops of Snap into K-command is usually unbeatable for us unless we have several threats on the board which is unusual against Grixis.
Thing is, I don't think the matchup got worse for us since the unbanning, but it was already very bad before. There was just nobody playing the deck apart from Corey.
If I saw Grixis on a regular basis, I would think about adding 1 additional Finks or a Hazoret to the sb.
I think Fulminator is better against Jeskai, while Finks is better against Grixis, but I'm usually bringing both in for both matchups. One card that I think gets more interesting as a consideration with BBE is Troll Ascetic, which does a nice Thrun impression while also being cascade-able. I'm not sure what the meta needs to look like for that to become something I actually want to play, but I like having the option.
Well, you have a point. I wouldn't stop ticking her up if I still have her in the deck post-board. Usually I side them out.
Against them, targeted discard is the way to go. My reasoning on this is that in Titanshift and Scapeshift, I don't think every card in their deck matters in the matchup. Only certain cards like Through the Breach, Scapeshift, Titan's, Bring to Light, and other combo-centric matter. In our deck, I believe that EVERY card of ours matters. So I prefer to approach them with low cost selective hand disruption with thoughtseize, inquisition, and collective brutality.
That being said, assessing the two modes on LoTV; her +1 is now not exactly to our benefit because some of their cards don't matter and all of ours do. And her -2 doesn't matter much either thanks to dorks or hasty breaching. Which, in my opinion, makes her mediocre at best; and our deck trims mediocre cards for other cards post board.
So on the topic of LoTV vs Ponza and Valakut, we need to differentiate. Let me start with Valakut.
You claim that, for example in the Valakut matchup, that every card of us matters and only a few from theirs matter. That and in combination with potential Baloths leads you to the conclusion that LoTV should be sided out. If that were the case, it is obviously right. But I do not agree with the first part concerning Valakut. I do believe that its actually the other way around, only a few cards of ours matter and every card from the Valakut player matters. Think about the matchup. What is the plan of Valakut? Its hitting landdrops and ramping. Against Jund, they don't need to win with a Scapeshift. They can just win with a Titan, getting a few Valakut triggers and as soon as Valakut is online, nearly every card they draw is directly translated to 3 dmg. Sometimes even more. It is actually our deck that has loads of dead cards in that matchup. Discard is really bad vs lands. You cant take them. Discard is only semi good against Scapeshift. You can take it, but a topdecked Scapeshift is never stopped by discard. Especially IOK is very unreliable, since we cant snag Scapeshift or Titan to gain some precious time. Willy Edel also confirms that, as he said discard is not good against 1-card combo decks (Scapeshift). Removal is really dead. Bolt from ours is nearly useless, unless we can kill the opponent if we got them low enough. Ooze is way too slow as a threat. KCommand is very clunky and not impactful enough. Maelstrom Pulse almost means we have to tap out only to kill a Titan at best case scenario (which has already dealt its dmg when coming into play). I think you get my point. Valakut is incredibly resilient, and its definitely not a deck that relies on Titan or Scapeshift. We cant play our Jund game against them because half of our cards are dead. We only have interaction with the hand. And besides Goyf for a quick finish and Fulminator for obvious reasons, LoTV is our best card in the matchup. Its the biggest reason why Valakut runs baloth in the SB in the first place. If LoTV was bad, they would not need to run it. That being said, its definitely not an autowin if we have LoTV. Simply because valakut has soo many live topdecks as the deck is soo resilient.
Now, for Ponza the thing is a little bit different. They tend to have way worse topdecks than Valakut does. This makes LoTV worse later in the game. Ofc a topdecked giant will always be a problem. But I think LoTV, if we have it early, can really give us a big time advantage, as we slow our opponents down. And I think the edict effect is quite reliable still, since their dorks should be killed by us asap anyway. We have lots of removal which means a dork is not gonna live long in that matchup usually. Often LoTV is one needed out to beat a topdecked Stormbreath or Infernal Titan. I think also, since the deck plays mostly ramp, lands LD and then their threat, that a Lili uptick after the first wave of aggresion has passed, has a high chance of snagging a big ass threat like Titan. All in all I do like LoTV in both matchups.
Well, this is why I've been heavy on 3x Collective Brutality and 2x Finks in the board. This wasn't just an overblown reaction to burn. CB has a ton of usage against combo, burn, some aggro creature, and control. Finks has it's uses in the mirror, burn, some control, and aggro decks that aren't combo-centric.
I don't think I'd feel great playing Haz in board, but I certainly like her more than Thrun or Choke. There is some merit to possibly playing Hazoret in the side. For now I'm skeptical of it, but I wouldn't blow it off as totally unlikely.
I also begin to question if I want Liliana, the Last Hope if I already have her in the mainboard. If she's not in the mainboard she should be in the side, but...I don't know, I don't think it's often I want two of her, except against something like elves.
I have to say, I'm really happy to see all these great posts. The Facebook group has gone to hell and I would be disappointed to see them flood these boards with posts.
Well, this is why I've been heavy on 3x Collective Brutality and 2x Finks in the board. This wasn't just an overblown reaction to burn. CB has a ton of usage against combo, burn, some aggro creature, and control. Finks has it's uses in the mirror, burn, some control, and aggro decks that aren't combo-centric.
I don't think I'd feel great playing Haz in board, but I certainly like her more than Thrun or Choke. There is some merit to possibly playing Hazoret in the side. For now I'm skeptical of it, but I wouldn't blow it off as totally unlikely.
I also begin to question if I want Liliana, the Last Hope if I already have her in the mainboard. If she's not in the mainboard she should be in the side, but...I don't know, I don't think it's often I want two of her, except against something like elves.
Certainly right, CB and Finks look good in general now. Hazoret would be totally a mirror breaker imo. And she is amazing against Control. I personally would probably run her over the second Finks if I had a slot.
Don't know about cutting LtLH from the board. I think she is more or less needed since we cut down on removal (compared to pre BBE).
I am also not a big fan of Hazoret in the board, especially now that BBE has taken that 4cmc slot, and I don't want more than 4 cards that cost 4 mana.
Regarding the second Last Hope in the board, I am also still unsure about it. Grim Lavamancer and Last Hope combined take the slot of a wipe in my board, I just think they are more versatile than something like Anger. If I had to take out Last Hope from my board I feel like I would need some kind of sweeper against Mardu or small creature strategies, but as of now, with Lili and Lavamancer I never really missed the days of Anger (apart from the Hollow One/Dredge matchup).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I would not suggest to do that. In attrition based matchups you actually want to grind and hit landdrops. Plus, with FoR being popular, you cant do that.
Its actually the opposite: Against fast aggro and combo matches where you can cut a land. And in that case, I would cut the fourth basic primarily.
Edit: (Postboard) Knowing they boarded in several Baloths, would you board out Lili, gamble with +1 or only use her edict effect?
About Baloths, I am not sure. What I have seen, those are less played than before. I would just ignore it I think, since LoTV is a real powerhouse against the deck to rip their hand apart. The ulti from Lili is also often game over. It is quite hard if you 100 % know they have baloths though. I think I would certainly not board out all copies of her at the very least.
I watched Cory's mining video on TCG, and i was like, "yeah, man, I have most of those staples in paper and mtgo, let me try it out"
I did not think the deck was good, and BBE doesn't push this into tier 1. The problem with Ponza is that it still has to play a bunch of bad cards. Obviously, when it gets rolling it feels unbeatable, but some of it's openers seriously fall apart to either a turn 1 discard or turn 1 removal. The deck really has trouble establishing against pressure if it doesn't have a moon and threat quickly.
I would just keep playing LOTV against them, we can't play afraid against them, they'll beat us in the long game.
Ponza is maybe tier 2 now? I think the deck still kinda sucks, though, it has so many bad topdecks.
I still think Hollow One is the busted deck that's going to give jund players a fit.
Grixis feels like the toughest matchup now, since they're so dense with removal. I've found fulminator mage less impressive against their deck compared to UW and Jeskai. However, Creeping Tarpit and Azcanta are still things.
Outside of Grixis, I absolutely do not feel unfavored against blue decks now, it's definitely become a skill matchup now. Not that it wasn't before, but in the past we couldn't handle all their answers.
The matchup is how it always is, it really hasn't changed. Early disruption followed up by a goyf is where you wanna be. Make sure to fetch your basic forest before anything so you can play your 'threat' creatures under a Blood Moon. With BBE I think our deck improved more than theirs. I've had mull to 5's beat that deck quite frequently.
I personally board out LoTV in most potential Baloth situation. It's so backbreaking to our deck (which is why I give a sideboard slot to the card). LoTV's edict effect isn't too good here anyways since they got dorks and cards that don't matter in the long-run. But then again, it's all how you set up the deck post-sideboard. My feelings are different than @FlyingDelver's
The edict isn't what makes LOTV so good, it's destroying the resources in their hand.
Ponza feels like a mixed bag to play against, it never feels easy, but it feels 50/50ish.
Well, you have a point. I wouldn't stop ticking her up if I still have her in the deck post-board. Usually I side them out.
Against them, targeted discard is the way to go. My reasoning on this is that in Titanshift and Scapeshift, I don't think every card in their deck matters in the matchup. Only certain cards like Through the Breach, Scapeshift, Titan's, Bring to Light, and other combo-centric matter. In our deck, I believe that EVERY card of ours matters. So I prefer to approach them with low cost selective hand disruption with thoughtseize, inquisition, and collective brutality.
That being said, assessing the two modes on LoTV; her +1 is now not exactly to our benefit because some of their cards don't matter and all of ours do. And her -2 doesn't matter much either thanks to dorks or hasty breaching. Which, in my opinion, makes her mediocre at best; and our deck trims mediocre cards for other cards post board.
The Grixis matchup is interesting. Because most of their spells are just 1-for-1, I've been thinking that I shouldn't be boarding up to 6 discard spells, and should just try to overload their removal. I also think that Lightning Bolt might be a card worth leaving in, because they generally don't gain life back after they've lost it (vs Jeskai playing Lightning Helix), so just whittling them down and burning them out for the last couple points is a very real option. I haven't gotten to try it yet, but I'm interested in cutting my hard removal (Terminate, Fatal Push), shaving a bolt, and shaving down on my discard spells to bring in Finks, Fulminator, and maybe a single Nihil Spellbomb. This approach is probably less reasonable against versions of the deck running AV.
Monday, my opponent had Jace on board and brainstorming for like---6 turns. He just couldn't keep up. I put down Bob, Bob, Goyf, Goyf, BBE. And I made him use his mana awkwardly to kill Ravine. Going wide against them is real, though you really have to be careful not go get blown out by anger of the gods (which is legit against us).
I wouldn't leave the bolt in against them, just overload them. I do think I cut all removal except for terminate since I saw Tasigur.
I think the key to beating Grixis is not letting them tap out how they would like to.
While I find kitchen finks underwhelming against Jeskai and UW, I find it great against grixis
And I would simply disagree. Again, only certain cards matter. They can still run us over with titans, PK Nallar, and their BBE's. Them having an empty hand is only an extension of what is truly effective, which is taking away their power cards, and leaving them with the cards that do nothing or we can work around i.e. dorks, stone rain abilities, and Blood Moon (if you get lucky fetches).
Thing is, I don't think the matchup got worse for us since the unbanning, but it was already very bad before. There was just nobody playing the deck apart from Corey.
If I saw Grixis on a regular basis, I would think about adding 1 additional Finks or a Hazoret to the sb.
So on the topic of LoTV vs Ponza and Valakut, we need to differentiate. Let me start with Valakut.
You claim that, for example in the Valakut matchup, that every card of us matters and only a few from theirs matter. That and in combination with potential Baloths leads you to the conclusion that LoTV should be sided out. If that were the case, it is obviously right. But I do not agree with the first part concerning Valakut. I do believe that its actually the other way around, only a few cards of ours matter and every card from the Valakut player matters. Think about the matchup. What is the plan of Valakut? Its hitting landdrops and ramping. Against Jund, they don't need to win with a Scapeshift. They can just win with a Titan, getting a few Valakut triggers and as soon as Valakut is online, nearly every card they draw is directly translated to 3 dmg. Sometimes even more. It is actually our deck that has loads of dead cards in that matchup. Discard is really bad vs lands. You cant take them. Discard is only semi good against Scapeshift. You can take it, but a topdecked Scapeshift is never stopped by discard. Especially IOK is very unreliable, since we cant snag Scapeshift or Titan to gain some precious time. Willy Edel also confirms that, as he said discard is not good against 1-card combo decks (Scapeshift). Removal is really dead. Bolt from ours is nearly useless, unless we can kill the opponent if we got them low enough. Ooze is way too slow as a threat. KCommand is very clunky and not impactful enough. Maelstrom Pulse almost means we have to tap out only to kill a Titan at best case scenario (which has already dealt its dmg when coming into play). I think you get my point. Valakut is incredibly resilient, and its definitely not a deck that relies on Titan or Scapeshift. We cant play our Jund game against them because half of our cards are dead. We only have interaction with the hand. And besides Goyf for a quick finish and Fulminator for obvious reasons, LoTV is our best card in the matchup. Its the biggest reason why Valakut runs baloth in the SB in the first place. If LoTV was bad, they would not need to run it. That being said, its definitely not an autowin if we have LoTV. Simply because valakut has soo many live topdecks as the deck is soo resilient.
Now, for Ponza the thing is a little bit different. They tend to have way worse topdecks than Valakut does. This makes LoTV worse later in the game. Ofc a topdecked giant will always be a problem. But I think LoTV, if we have it early, can really give us a big time advantage, as we slow our opponents down. And I think the edict effect is quite reliable still, since their dorks should be killed by us asap anyway. We have lots of removal which means a dork is not gonna live long in that matchup usually. Often LoTV is one needed out to beat a topdecked Stormbreath or Infernal Titan. I think also, since the deck plays mostly ramp, lands LD and then their threat, that a Lili uptick after the first wave of aggresion has passed, has a high chance of snagging a big ass threat like Titan. All in all I do like LoTV in both matchups.
I don't think I'd feel great playing Haz in board, but I certainly like her more than Thrun or Choke. There is some merit to possibly playing Hazoret in the side. For now I'm skeptical of it, but I wouldn't blow it off as totally unlikely.
I also begin to question if I want Liliana, the Last Hope if I already have her in the mainboard. If she's not in the mainboard she should be in the side, but...I don't know, I don't think it's often I want two of her, except against something like elves.
Oh. Also.
Seth Manfield and Jund mirrors. Discuss.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14491&writer=Seth Manfield&articledate=3-7-2018
Certainly right, CB and Finks look good in general now. Hazoret would be totally a mirror breaker imo. And she is amazing against Control. I personally would probably run her over the second Finks if I had a slot.
Don't know about cutting LtLH from the board. I think she is more or less needed since we cut down on removal (compared to pre BBE).
Regarding the second Last Hope in the board, I am also still unsure about it. Grim Lavamancer and Last Hope combined take the slot of a wipe in my board, I just think they are more versatile than something like Anger. If I had to take out Last Hope from my board I feel like I would need some kind of sweeper against Mardu or small creature strategies, but as of now, with Lili and Lavamancer I never really missed the days of Anger (apart from the Hollow One/Dredge matchup).