I started playing with Grim Flayer again and I'm not disappointed. Sometimes it's a 4/4, sometimes it's a 2/2, but what really matters is it's combat trigger. I've found myself beating a lot of decks just because I was able to dig and find my proper hate card. He also plays extremely nicely with Dark Confidant, stacking cards to mitigate life loss. I'm not playing any delirium enablers because delirium isn't vital to my gameplan. I simply swapped 3 Flayers for my 3 Scavenging Ooze and the rest is stock.
Speaking of Scavenging Ooze, does anybody really believe it's worth a slot anymore? I'm hardly ever excited to draw one and even in matchups where it should excel, it's extremely underwhelming. I feel like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet has a similar role (Lifegain, GY stuff), but just does it a little better. I know some people are going to scald me for not playing Ooze simply because they don't like change and Ooze has been a staple for years, but I challenge you to really think about how good that card is and report back.
Recap: Replaced Ooze with Grim Flayer and am really liking it.
I won't feel secure going down less than 2 Scoozes. It just does so much - gives you an out against Dredge, stabilise against burn, grow bigger than smashers in a grind, neuters snapcaster, offsets Dark Confidant's pings, remove opponent's delirium etc
I took FlyingDelver's advice and upped my Scooze count to 3, from 2. I've only had one local to hit since I made the change, but I agree with all of the above sentiments. The upside to running Scooze is too good to cut him completely. I've been itching to try Flayer so I may drop back to 2, but lifegain is a real thing in this deck.
I feel like Flayer is in competition with the Bob slot more than anything, but that's tricky because as you said, he synergizes really well there.
Kalitas is a bit too slow in a lot of matchups for what you want from Scooze. He's also harder to hit consistently since you're very unlikely to run more than 1-2 copies of him.
I would never leave my home without at least 2 Oozes in my 75. I would never replace those with Flayer, Flayer in my experience is just too much of a swingy card to have consistant value. And I like consistancy in my deck. It might be personal, but for me flayer was either great or complete garbage and with big ass creatures being present in this format I think the second case applies more often than the first case.
Speaking of Scavenging Ooze, does anybody really believe it's worth a slot anymore?
I don't believe it's worth a slot, I believe it's worth three.
Comparing Ooze to Kalitas doesn't make any sense. Kalitas depends on other cards to grow and gain you life, is costly, doesn't deal with Souls, Conflagrate or Snapcaster, etc.
I've just finished my weekly testing session against team mates and I wanted to play against Living End this morning with the list I want to bring to GP Birmingham (August) :
I won 3-2 before side boarding thanks to the 3 Scavenging Ooze and the 2 Kalitas.
Discard is pretty efficient against their cascade spells and Liliana of the Veil to discard your own Tarmogoyf when you know they will soon cast a cascade spell are the most efficient ways to deal with Living End before SB.
In : +3 Nihil Spellbomb / +3 Collective Brutality / +2 Fulminator Mage / +1 Maelstrom Pulse / +1 Damnation Out : -3 Lightning Bolt / -3 Fatal Push / -2 Abrupt Decay / -1 Kolaghan's Command / -1 Liliana of the Veil
I won 9-2 with the previous SB tech.
With 9 discards, 3 GY hate + Ooze and Kalitas, it's really hard for them to win a game or you keep a terrible hand against LE.
Don't hesitate to mull until you find a GY hate and/or discard spells.
I'm not even sure claim/fame will be good for grixis, why on earth would Jund want it? I mean, sure it'd be nice to bring Goyfs back, but I'm not sure I'd get rid of an all around useful card for a conditional one. At least Shadow decks have a huge 10/10 or snapcaster.
I feel like Bontu's Last Reckoning is the only possible card, and I doubt that should be ran over damnation.
Don't think Jund got new tools from the spoiled set.
Claim // Fame is definitely more conditional but I think it's just better in a shell that has a more aggressive slant (aka older Flayer Jund builds and the like).
I just wanted to ask you about your opinions about Jund's future.. do you think that Jund will get back on top of Tier 1 anytime soon? I would like to foil it out, but I am afraid that Modern will develop in other direction and that Jund will never be as strong as it was in the past.. please help
Jund is still very strong.
It will stay strong.
The only things that making jund t3 is because nobody plays it atm because everybody is trying the new shinny decks like DS flavor or new company thing.
Bolt, terminate, grim lavamancer seems strong at the moment due to all the decks playing around fatal push. Bolt and lavamancer hit mirran crusader too.
Should we be playing 4 bolts again?
What should we be playing at the 4 drop? Olivia, kalitas, huntmaster? Never been a fan of Chandra.
3-4 leylines or 3-4 spellbomb/graffdiggers in the board?
Should we still be playing fulminators or should we just concede to the big man matchups such as tron, etron, shapeshift?
With the rise of Grixis DS and UW control (about 19-20% of the paper met agame for both), what do you think about Choke or Boil in our 75 ?
Boil is easier to cast and can slow down for a while if not managed.
On the other hand, Boil can be played in Instant and is more effective when resolved.
UW Control runs a ton of counters and plays the long game better than you, I feel like on the draw it's going to be very difficult to play boil or Choke. You could play the boil at EOT and play something critical in hopes they tapped out. I can't even be excited about Thrun anymore because of the tools they play that can handle him.
Jund is definitely not looking good right now outside of FNM's. Take a look on MTGGOLDFISH and just the top 12
Grixis-50/50 overall, I'd say. You may have a leg up game 1 but they have Lillies of their own, the games are tough for both decks to win. Lingering souls busts this matchup wide open for the Abzan variation.
Affinity-50/50, some people could argue it's even pretty good post-board. I think most players would agree the wins are usually close though. I think it's definitely in our favor when we play the 2nd K-Commmand and shatterstorm
Eldrazi Tron-Bad
Titan Shift-Bad
Burn-50/50- Personally, I have good record against burn players. Some people may feel it very much favors Jund, I'm always hearing and reading different opinions on this. ME, personally, it feels 65-35, but I hear so many Jund players lament about this matchup.
UW Control-Unfavorable, but only by about 5ish percent, only more if they're really gearing to destroy fair decks. Reid Duke always writes that he's not happy to see blue control decks. They aren't horrible matchups, but they're grindy and you really have to earn them
Dredge-Bad to unfavorable. Removal is awful against them.
Tron-Demorlizingly bad.
Counters Company-Favorable. The deck sucks, it was way better as a value deck with the combo backup. Creature combo against a deck built to kill creatures feels good.
UR Storm-Favorable to good. Discard into Goyf into LOTV is difficult for storm.
Junk-Unfavorable, lingering souls is one of the worst fair cards to see as Jund, and the card makes your LOTV worse in the mirror.
I have no experience against Humans as Jund, can't comment.
Based off of what I just wrote, would you take Jund to an open field?
I've been jamming some Jund recently, the wins are hard earned and the meta is harsh enough that one little mistake will definitely blow it for you. There's such a large amount of big mana decks out there, which is shocking, since Grixis preys on big mana, it only gets worse if for some reason it falls out of favor. Even in my fnms I've ran into a lot of big mana, and a lot of the fair decks I am seeing are running lingering souls (which means now I'll play NOTSB in the side).
It's very hard to play fair in modern, you're better off playing decks that don't interact, but that bores me; it's taking a 1 mana 8/8 with a 1 mana counter to keep up with combo/linear decks.
Junds a pile of good cards though, all it could take is a few sets for it to suddenly hit tier 1 again, right now jund is feeling severely outdated though. You'd be surprised how similar grixis shadow feels to jund, it's basically a jund deck with Snaps and cantrips, while staying lean with less lands as topdecks.
If I were you I'd foil out the black cards, like fatal pushes, thoughtseizes, some LOTV, etc. You can see where the meta is going from there. I literally have my entire jund deck foiled out minus 1 Verdant Catacomb, was pretty surprised how much of it translated to Grixis being foiled out.
Jund could come back, but it'll take severe meta changes and fall outs, Jund isn't a weak deck, it's just a little outdated and left behind for the moment, Abzan is barely clinging to tier 2, death shadow jund is---well, it's really not a great deck once the meta realized interaction is all it takes for the deck to fold.
GBx is just in a bad spot, which sucks, because I literally have a filled to the brim toolbox of nothing but GBx staples and sideboard staples.
Jund and Abzan are personal favorites of mine, and I share that feeling with many, many Modern players. No matter how powerful the other decks get, there will always be a group of die-hards that will carry the torch for Tarmogoyf and Liliana of the Veil.
I actually believe that this is a very good time to be playing G/B/x. Fatal Push is an awesome addition to the color combination, Lingering Souls is one of the best ways to beat Grixis Shadow, and the non-white versions have strong appeal in other matchups.
There's not one particular version of G/B/x that's very popular right now. Instead, it's mostly about personal taste. But at your next Modern tournament, you shouldn't be surprised to run into Classic Abzan, Jund, Jund Death's Shadow, Abzan Traverse, Abzan Knight of the Reliquary, or straight G/B Midrange.
Reid Duke combined like 4 to 6 GBx decks for that meta share, he was being disingenuous in that article.
9% for Jund, Junk, Rock, Abzan Traverse, Death Cloud. Those are not amazing meta game numbers.
It still shocks me to see Jund under 2%, like, I knew it'd hit tier 2 after DSJ was discovered---it feels way too established and powerful to be in the developing competitive section.
So I'm trying some experimental stuff with midrange Jund. For this, I need a way (a card) that specifically helps me run through the chaff in my deck like Thought Scour and Serum Visions does for blue. Does anyone have ideas? I literally have come up blank and apparently I'm searching databases with the wrong keys words.
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I won't feel secure going down less than 2 Scoozes. It just does so much - gives you an out against Dredge, stabilise against burn, grow bigger than smashers in a grind, neuters snapcaster, offsets Dark Confidant's pings, remove opponent's delirium etc
I feel like Flayer is in competition with the Bob slot more than anything, but that's tricky because as you said, he synergizes really well there.
Kalitas is a bit too slow in a lot of matchups for what you want from Scooze. He's also harder to hit consistently since you're very unlikely to run more than 1-2 copies of him.
I don't believe it's worth a slot, I believe it's worth three.
Comparing Ooze to Kalitas doesn't make any sense. Kalitas depends on other cards to grow and gain you life, is costly, doesn't deal with Souls, Conflagrate or Snapcaster, etc.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Shatterstorm
I won 3-2 before side boarding thanks to the 3 Scavenging Ooze and the 2 Kalitas.
Discard is pretty efficient against their cascade spells and Liliana of the Veil to discard your own Tarmogoyf when you know they will soon cast a cascade spell are the most efficient ways to deal with Living End before SB.
In : +3 Nihil Spellbomb / +3 Collective Brutality / +2 Fulminator Mage / +1 Maelstrom Pulse / +1 Damnation
Out : -3 Lightning Bolt / -3 Fatal Push / -2 Abrupt Decay / -1 Kolaghan's Command / -1 Liliana of the Veil
I won 9-2 with the previous SB tech.
With 9 discards, 3 GY hate + Ooze and Kalitas, it's really hard for them to win a game or you keep a terrible hand against LE.
Don't hesitate to mull until you find a GY hate and/or discard spells.
Gus
What do you guys think about it in classic Jund Midrange?
UR Twin - RIP
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I feel like Bontu's Last Reckoning is the only possible card, and I doubt that should be ran over damnation.
Don't think Jund got new tools from the spoiled set.
Jund is still very strong.
It will stay strong.
The only things that making jund t3 is because nobody plays it atm because everybody is trying the new shinny decks like DS flavor or new company thing.
It will rise to Tier 2 and then tier 1 again.
Bolt, terminate, grim lavamancer seems strong at the moment due to all the decks playing around fatal push. Bolt and lavamancer hit mirran crusader too.
Should we be playing 4 bolts again?
What should we be playing at the 4 drop? Olivia, kalitas, huntmaster? Never been a fan of Chandra.
3-4 leylines or 3-4 spellbomb/graffdiggers in the board?
Should we still be playing fulminators or should we just concede to the big man matchups such as tron, etron, shapeshift?
Boil is easier to cast and can slow down for a while if not managed.
On the other hand, Boil can be played in Instant and is more effective when resolved.
What are your thoughts about those cards ?
Gus
Grixis-50/50 overall, I'd say. You may have a leg up game 1 but they have Lillies of their own, the games are tough for both decks to win. Lingering souls busts this matchup wide open for the Abzan variation.
Affinity-50/50, some people could argue it's even pretty good post-board. I think most players would agree the wins are usually close though. I think it's definitely in our favor when we play the 2nd K-Commmand and shatterstorm
Eldrazi Tron-Bad
Titan Shift-Bad
Burn-50/50- Personally, I have good record against burn players. Some people may feel it very much favors Jund, I'm always hearing and reading different opinions on this. ME, personally, it feels 65-35, but I hear so many Jund players lament about this matchup.
UW Control-Unfavorable, but only by about 5ish percent, only more if they're really gearing to destroy fair decks. Reid Duke always writes that he's not happy to see blue control decks. They aren't horrible matchups, but they're grindy and you really have to earn them
Dredge-Bad to unfavorable. Removal is awful against them.
Tron-Demorlizingly bad.
Counters Company-Favorable. The deck sucks, it was way better as a value deck with the combo backup. Creature combo against a deck built to kill creatures feels good.
UR Storm-Favorable to good. Discard into Goyf into LOTV is difficult for storm.
Junk-Unfavorable, lingering souls is one of the worst fair cards to see as Jund, and the card makes your LOTV worse in the mirror.
I have no experience against Humans as Jund, can't comment.
Based off of what I just wrote, would you take Jund to an open field?
I've been jamming some Jund recently, the wins are hard earned and the meta is harsh enough that one little mistake will definitely blow it for you. There's such a large amount of big mana decks out there, which is shocking, since Grixis preys on big mana, it only gets worse if for some reason it falls out of favor. Even in my fnms I've ran into a lot of big mana, and a lot of the fair decks I am seeing are running lingering souls (which means now I'll play NOTSB in the side).
It's very hard to play fair in modern, you're better off playing decks that don't interact, but that bores me; it's taking a 1 mana 8/8 with a 1 mana counter to keep up with combo/linear decks.
Junds a pile of good cards though, all it could take is a few sets for it to suddenly hit tier 1 again, right now jund is feeling severely outdated though. You'd be surprised how similar grixis shadow feels to jund, it's basically a jund deck with Snaps and cantrips, while staying lean with less lands as topdecks.
If I were you I'd foil out the black cards, like fatal pushes, thoughtseizes, some LOTV, etc. You can see where the meta is going from there. I literally have my entire jund deck foiled out minus 1 Verdant Catacomb, was pretty surprised how much of it translated to Grixis being foiled out.
Jund could come back, but it'll take severe meta changes and fall outs, Jund isn't a weak deck, it's just a little outdated and left behind for the moment, Abzan is barely clinging to tier 2, death shadow jund is---well, it's really not a great deck once the meta realized interaction is all it takes for the deck to fold.
GBx is just in a bad spot, which sucks, because I literally have a filled to the brim toolbox of nothing but GBx staples and sideboard staples.
Source : https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-state-of-modern-july-2017/
Personnaly I'm pretty happy about Jund, it's less played and need some real good knowledges about the meta game to perform well with it.
Gus
9% for Jund, Junk, Rock, Abzan Traverse, Death Cloud. Those are not amazing meta game numbers.
It still shocks me to see Jund under 2%, like, I knew it'd hit tier 2 after DSJ was discovered---it feels way too established and powerful to be in the developing competitive section.