Regarding the Eldrazi Tron matchup - we are def favoured. They absolutely hate Eldrazi Displacer (displacing Ballista feels pretty good amongst other things you can displace) and good players will try to Needle it. They durdle a lot - we have ancient stirrings and dorks to get things going. We are faster and can get TKS and Smasher down faster. Furthermore, our removal and sb is just superior in every way.
I don't side in Stony against Eldrazi Tron because EE is very strong against them - blow up any hate like Needle or Chalice - you can snag numerous other cards such as Collar, Ballista etc as well. If you play Unified Will you should consider bringing this in, I play Needle and Natural State - you should def bring those in as well if you have them.
I think we have a small edge on the play getting down TKS and Smasher faster because of dorks, but maps for temples is a real thing when they are on play and them landing the t3 TKS before you can definitely hurts. We may have a small edge in the 'race out my threats' category, but the issue is that I feel like their inevitability is better than ours. Ours depends heavily on displacer, but once they hit tron they have about 8 cards off the top of my head that become nightmares (4x Ballista, which at the very least murder the displacer that gets them, 2x Endbringer, 2x Karn). Additionally their Basilisk collar can be very troublesome since it makes racing very tough if we don't close out quick. I am completely unconcerned with opposing chalices in the main, which give us a reasonable target for our EE if nothing else, and oftentimes come down after our dork or stirrings gets played, and causes a lot of OPs to keep hands they wouldn't have otherwise. I don't think they will be boarding them in against us, it hurts them too much to try and cut us off cards that don't stop them from dying, and the card is dead against us on 2 (until SB). I think Stony is a house against them, especially when landing on turn 2, as it shuts off a ton of their threats and fixing. Making their proactive cards like map / collar / batterskull / ballista activations / mindstone into dead cards is big game as you can usually catch them with their pants down. I didn't take out EE because it was a nonbo with Stony, but because I felt like it absolutely doesn't do enough. At best it kills a basilisk collar or a spellskite? It would be a waste to use on map or mindstone, which both take themselves off the board in a hurry anyway, and using it to kill Ballista is only relevant one ballista is enormous and you are in a losing spot anyway. It just felt like a bad card for the matchup since it does less work than the stony against the things it is supposed to be good against. I brought in the disdainful strokes, but only 2 out of three because I was concerned that drawing more than one might cost me the game on the backfoot, as opposed to other matchups like ad nauseum where if I have two I am delighted. It's a value card here more than anything, and I think outshines unified will in a pretty meaningful way as I wouldn't cast will on anything I couldn't cast stroke on anyhow, and it doesn't have the creature count stipulation.
On a sidenote, I am IslandsAreStillRad, and I see you around all the time and I worry that people think we are the same person.
My major comment is that you def keep in EE even though there is a non-bo with Stony. Both cards are too powerful against Affinity to leave out. Similarly I bring in Worship. Yes they can play around it with inkmoth or even blow it up with wear//tear - it's still won me plenty of matches despite all of that..
Similarly I would keep in E-Wit against Jund - yes you are bringing in gy hate (mostly relics anyway) but its still worth it for the grind value - if you aren't playing E-wit against an attrition/grindy deck then what are you playing it against?
All of this is flat out objectively correct. Ripping either EE or Stony against Affinity is crucial, and any situation where you draw EE and Stony is definitely a situation you want to be in, nonbo or not. This same situation applies to jund. Relic is less exciting against them than Abzan (since they generally are running Bob over Flayer and don't have lingering) but witness is a house and a half. Jund wants to trade with you card per card, and eWit cheats on that front. The things we get back from eWit were taken by thoughtseizes for a reason.
Just tested bringing in 2 Ewit + 2 RIP against Grixis. The nonbo is very real and I don't think that particular configuration works against Grixis. It might be worth it against Jund where Ewit has more immediate value and RIP can be abrupt decayed, but against Grixis and possibly Abzan I'm not sure it's worth a sideboard slot.
I'm definitely shaving down to just 1 Ewit, but I might think about shaving from 2 RIP to 1 RIP 1 Relic to mitigate the nonbo.
Id agree with your sentiments. If you are using a higher number of E-Wit or Matter Reshaper - then your gy hate is better off with a higher number of Relic's.
For example when I was running 2 E-Wit and 2-3 Reshaper - all my gy hate was Relics. My more recent builds have 1 E-witness main (or 1 reshaper). With this build im less concerned about the non-bo and am comfortable pushing up to 2x RIP.
Interesting points you bring up KevPlace - re. Stony vs EE against Eldrazi Tron. I'll have to re-think bringing in Stony Silence over EE. The increased use of MindStone in addition to your other points has me thinking I need to bring in SS and cut EE..
Just did terribly at FNM yesterday... my first negative record in months. Lost to elves and valakut which aren't surprising but also lost to delver thanks to a misplay. My recent record against Grixis delver/control is only 1-3. The lists I've played against seemed pretty tuned against us with fulminators, roasts, etc. Two of those postboard game losses were even with a resolved RIP and elspeth in hand.
I think 2x RIP 1x Elspeth is not a great package for the fair matchups. Elspeth is too expensive way too often. RIP sometimes doesn't do anything, say against a turn 1 delver, and actually may hinder you because it's functional card disadvantage. Ewit, while not an absolute hoser, is still a high quality card against fair decks and I think does a better all-around job than RIP and Elspeth in those situations. Its flexibility allows us to withstand fulminators, recur removal when we need it, and find gas when we need it. But the non-bo between RIP and Ewit is real like I mentioned before... and it's not like we can cut RIP because it's just too valuable in other random grave-centric matchups where Relic isn't enough.
So here's my proposal: 1 RIP, 1 Grafdiggers, 2 Ewit in sideboard, but don't always bring in RIP against fair decks.
Vs Grixis: +2 Ewit, 1 Grafdiggers, no RIP
Vs Jund: +2 Ewit, no RIP
Vs DS Jund: +2 Ewit, 1 RIP
Vs Abzan: +2 Ewit, 1 RIP (Abzan is a little more grave reliant)
Anyone tried Elder Deep-Fiend in this build? Could be a great surprise finisher EOT off a Skyspawner or Displacer maybe, and allows us the mana to cast Smasher and then swing with both on our next turn while having already tapped down troublesome lands or blockers... too cute, maybe? Also not sure about the limitations of the UU casting cost. Looking more for experience here more than theory crafting, though I'd definitely listen to either or both. Thanks!
Anyone tried Elder Deep-Fiend in this build? Could be a great surprise finisher EOT off a Skyspawner or Displacer maybe, and allows us the mana to cast Smasher and then swing with both on our next turn while having already tapped down troublesome lands or blockers... too cute, maybe? Also not sure about the limitations of the UU casting cost. Looking more for experience here more than theory crafting, though I'd definitely listen to either or both. Thanks!
I play 3x Drowner + 1x Elder. Surprises them w an opp upkeep tap all opp lands. Emerge it on a Reshaper and you'll hit value town!
Anyone see the bant eldrazi list that placed 7th at SCG modern open this weekend. They played 3 delver of secrets. This is interesting but could be tough to flip with only 8 total spells to flip. Thoughts?
How essential is EE to this deck? I ask because I've been running the deck without it and still consistently doing well. EE is a bit out of my budget at the moment, so I've been playing an extra Blessed Alliance and one-of Stubborn Denial instead. Am I just playing an objectively worse version of this deck, or is there merit to not playing EE?
EE is often a 1-sided board wipe when set on sunburst = 2. In other matchups it is often the difference against go-wide strategies that Bant can have difficulty beating - Affinity, Small Zoo, Merfolk, Elves etc. Further to this it is the 'swiss-army knife' of removal - hitting artifacts, enchantments that may otherwise lock us out or just need removing to advance the board state optimally.
In summary I would always play a minimum of 2x EE - ratchet bomb is a possible 'budget' option if you dont want to pay for EE..
So I've been working on my overall game with this deck for about a month now, and tonight is the first night I feel like I understood the deck and how to SB better. Since starting modern I have gone 2-2 consistently, and tonight I finally went 4-0. Small victories but baby steps right?
Round 1 Vs U/W Spirits 2-1 Win
Round 2 Vs Knightfall/ Bant Company 2-1 Win (Great match)
Round 3 Vs Puresteel Paladin Combo/Cheerios 2-1 Win
Round 4 Vs Kiki Chord 2-0 Win
So this meta was light on GB/x decks so...yeah deck drew well and did what it had to do. Looking forward to more testing as I'll be at GP San Antone (close to home so why not?). The decks I've had the most trouble with are:
Ad Nauseam (I mean...sure...lol)
Any Delver Variant
Elves
Eldrazi Tron is weird, I'm not quite sure how to board here,
We are of course favored against delver pre-board but I don't think it's really that lopsided postboard. They take out all of their dead spells and there's not really anything we bring in that really improves that matchup.
I want to try testing out vapor snag or unsummon as a 1-2 of mainboard to replace dead slots (e.g. matter reshaper). It's a little bit weird for sure, and access to blue can sometimes be an issue. However, losing one of our fatties can often be game ending if we don't have gas, and vapor snag can be a great way of protecting that threat. It also allows us some interesting interactions such as giving an extra TKS effect in combo / spell based matchups or be a 2-for-1 against removal when used to protect a reality smasher. It also gives us T1-T2 board interaction that doesn't accelerate our opponent, for example against mana dorks or infect. Coincidentally, vapor snag happens to be great against delver.
Talking about some odd ideas, what about using Evolutionary Leap in this deck ?
It can help not run out of creatures and works well with the Scions and Matter Reshaper.
One of our deck's greatest weaknesses is tempo, and an enchantment that doesn't have an immediate effect on the battlefield is certainly tempo loss. The only situation where Evoleap would be good is to help grind out card advantage. But even then, it's a terrible topdeck and not the card I would want against a losing board state vs jund abzan or grixis. Feel free to test it and report results.
Weird, I've never had any problems with Ad Nauseam. Game one TKS disrupts their plan long enough for you to take the game hitting them fast. G2 I bring in my counter package (1x negate 2x stubborn denial) and 2x Stony Silence to shut down bloom.
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UWGBant EldraziUWG Decided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.
Trying this deck out and had a few questions for you all ...
1) What's the point of playing talisman main? Blood moon insulation? More T3 TKS?
2) It seems like 5 mana dorks and 23 lands is the "optimal" amount of mana sources (ignoring talismans) is that right?
3) Some lists seem to shave the third yavimaya coasts for a utility land (ghost quarter, sea gate wreckage, etc) is that essentially free?
4) Eleder Deep-Fiend over the 4th drowner seems like it could be pretty badass ... or just having access to a 5th big fat fatty thing in general. How has EDF worked and what other cards have you all found success with?
Thanks in advance for the insights!
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Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
Thanks for the advice, It's helped out, played at my LGS and went 2-2. Not the best showing but I learned a lot, I learned...Blood Moon is just a huge problem, however now I know that Skred Red plays 4x, I will prioritize getting basics lol.
I did beat Deathshadow again haven't had a huge problem beating that deck. A few players are running that deck (0ne of our locals topped 8'd the SCG dallas open this past weekend and is a very approachable and darn nice!) and I feel like the we just, win. Displacer is huge and Drowner just doesn't care what's on the other side. It just taps things down and swings.
Yep, questions:
1) Like the poster above, Tailsman or no Tailsman and why the UW one and not GW
2) Espelth or the 2nd Worship?
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
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I think we have a small edge on the play getting down TKS and Smasher faster because of dorks, but maps for temples is a real thing when they are on play and them landing the t3 TKS before you can definitely hurts. We may have a small edge in the 'race out my threats' category, but the issue is that I feel like their inevitability is better than ours. Ours depends heavily on displacer, but once they hit tron they have about 8 cards off the top of my head that become nightmares (4x Ballista, which at the very least murder the displacer that gets them, 2x Endbringer, 2x Karn). Additionally their Basilisk collar can be very troublesome since it makes racing very tough if we don't close out quick. I am completely unconcerned with opposing chalices in the main, which give us a reasonable target for our EE if nothing else, and oftentimes come down after our dork or stirrings gets played, and causes a lot of OPs to keep hands they wouldn't have otherwise. I don't think they will be boarding them in against us, it hurts them too much to try and cut us off cards that don't stop them from dying, and the card is dead against us on 2 (until SB). I think Stony is a house against them, especially when landing on turn 2, as it shuts off a ton of their threats and fixing. Making their proactive cards like map / collar / batterskull / ballista activations / mindstone into dead cards is big game as you can usually catch them with their pants down. I didn't take out EE because it was a nonbo with Stony, but because I felt like it absolutely doesn't do enough. At best it kills a basilisk collar or a spellskite? It would be a waste to use on map or mindstone, which both take themselves off the board in a hurry anyway, and using it to kill Ballista is only relevant one ballista is enormous and you are in a losing spot anyway. It just felt like a bad card for the matchup since it does less work than the stony against the things it is supposed to be good against. I brought in the disdainful strokes, but only 2 out of three because I was concerned that drawing more than one might cost me the game on the backfoot, as opposed to other matchups like ad nauseum where if I have two I am delighted. It's a value card here more than anything, and I think outshines unified will in a pretty meaningful way as I wouldn't cast will on anything I couldn't cast stroke on anyhow, and it doesn't have the creature count stipulation.
On a sidenote, I am IslandsAreStillRad, and I see you around all the time and I worry that people think we are the same person.
All of this is flat out objectively correct. Ripping either EE or Stony against Affinity is crucial, and any situation where you draw EE and Stony is definitely a situation you want to be in, nonbo or not. This same situation applies to jund. Relic is less exciting against them than Abzan (since they generally are running Bob over Flayer and don't have lingering) but witness is a house and a half. Jund wants to trade with you card per card, and eWit cheats on that front. The things we get back from eWit were taken by thoughtseizes for a reason.
I'm definitely shaving down to just 1 Ewit, but I might think about shaving from 2 RIP to 1 RIP 1 Relic to mitigate the nonbo.
For example when I was running 2 E-Wit and 2-3 Reshaper - all my gy hate was Relics. My more recent builds have 1 E-witness main (or 1 reshaper). With this build im less concerned about the non-bo and am comfortable pushing up to 2x RIP.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
I think 2x RIP 1x Elspeth is not a great package for the fair matchups. Elspeth is too expensive way too often. RIP sometimes doesn't do anything, say against a turn 1 delver, and actually may hinder you because it's functional card disadvantage. Ewit, while not an absolute hoser, is still a high quality card against fair decks and I think does a better all-around job than RIP and Elspeth in those situations. Its flexibility allows us to withstand fulminators, recur removal when we need it, and find gas when we need it. But the non-bo between RIP and Ewit is real like I mentioned before... and it's not like we can cut RIP because it's just too valuable in other random grave-centric matchups where Relic isn't enough.
So here's my proposal: 1 RIP, 1 Grafdiggers, 2 Ewit in sideboard, but don't always bring in RIP against fair decks.
Vs Grixis: +2 Ewit, 1 Grafdiggers, no RIP
Vs Jund: +2 Ewit, no RIP
Vs DS Jund: +2 Ewit, 1 RIP
Vs Abzan: +2 Ewit, 1 RIP (Abzan is a little more grave reliant)
Anyone tried Elder Deep-Fiend in this build? Could be a great surprise finisher EOT off a Skyspawner or Displacer maybe, and allows us the mana to cast Smasher and then swing with both on our next turn while having already tapped down troublesome lands or blockers... too cute, maybe? Also not sure about the limitations of the UU casting cost. Looking more for experience here more than theory crafting, though I'd definitely listen to either or both. Thanks!
I play 3x Drowner + 1x Elder. Surprises them w an opp upkeep tap all opp lands. Emerge it on a Reshaper and you'll hit value town!
No one in their right mind would play Delver in Bant Eldrazi.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
In summary I would always play a minimum of 2x EE - ratchet bomb is a possible 'budget' option if you dont want to pay for EE..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Round 1 Vs U/W Spirits 2-1 Win
Round 2 Vs Knightfall/ Bant Company 2-1 Win (Great match)
Round 3 Vs Puresteel Paladin Combo/Cheerios 2-1 Win
Round 4 Vs Kiki Chord 2-0 Win
So this meta was light on GB/x decks so...yeah deck drew well and did what it had to do. Looking forward to more testing as I'll be at GP San Antone (close to home so why not?). The decks I've had the most trouble with are:
Ad Nauseam (I mean...sure...lol)
Any Delver Variant
Elves
Eldrazi Tron is weird, I'm not quite sure how to board here,
How do we approach these decks? SB and gameplans?
My current list:
1x Breeding Pool
3x Brushland
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
3x Yavimaya Coast
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Drowner of Hope
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Skyspawner
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
Instant (5)
1x Blessed Alliance
4x Path to Exile
Artifact (2)
2x Engineered Explosives
Sorcery (4)
4x Ancient Stirrings
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Natural State
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Worship
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I want to try testing out vapor snag or unsummon as a 1-2 of mainboard to replace dead slots (e.g. matter reshaper). It's a little bit weird for sure, and access to blue can sometimes be an issue. However, losing one of our fatties can often be game ending if we don't have gas, and vapor snag can be a great way of protecting that threat. It also allows us some interesting interactions such as giving an extra TKS effect in combo / spell based matchups or be a 2-for-1 against removal when used to protect a reality smasher. It also gives us T1-T2 board interaction that doesn't accelerate our opponent, for example against mana dorks or infect. Coincidentally, vapor snag happens to be great against delver.
It can help not run out of creatures and works well with the Scions and Matter Reshaper.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
1) What's the point of playing talisman main? Blood moon insulation? More T3 TKS?
2) It seems like 5 mana dorks and 23 lands is the "optimal" amount of mana sources (ignoring talismans) is that right?
3) Some lists seem to shave the third yavimaya coasts for a utility land (ghost quarter, sea gate wreckage, etc) is that essentially free?
4) Eleder Deep-Fiend over the 4th drowner seems like it could be pretty badass ... or just having access to a 5th big fat fatty thing in general. How has EDF worked and what other cards have you all found success with?
Thanks in advance for the insights!
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
I did beat Deathshadow again haven't had a huge problem beating that deck. A few players are running that deck (0ne of our locals topped 8'd the SCG dallas open this past weekend and is a very approachable and darn nice!) and I feel like the we just, win. Displacer is huge and Drowner just doesn't care what's on the other side. It just taps things down and swings.
Yep, questions:
1) Like the poster above, Tailsman or no Tailsman and why the UW one and not GW
2) Espelth or the 2nd Worship?
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn