So I plan on making a major update to the primer. Please:
- send me a decklist (yes fine you can send me a splash list too)
- suggested cards list
- matchup analysis
I don't think windbrisk heights or shambling vent are auto includes. Fast lands or plains are just fine. I would go with 8 fetch lands
I find 2 EBT land in any combination to be about the right number, but they definitely aren't mandatory, I'd also cut Windbrisk before cutting Vent every time.
@rick90 I'd cut the 3rd Shock from your list and either add another Fetid, Vent, or Plains.
1) windbrisk heights : not great. You often hide something weak and it is not worth the tempo loss. At best run 1.
2) shambling vents : my experience was that running 4 was too much, as it results in drawing frequent multiples. Running 2, I started missing the card when I really needed it. So now I run 3. It is a fantastic card against the aggro decks but note that I do play a more controlling build so playing everything on curve is less of an issue. It single-handedly wins the game against Burn sometimes and it helps leverage against board wipes. Against aggros, the opponent is forced to trade off creatures against it because of the lifelink.
I really want to make some kind of honor of the pure build with 4 of these. It becomes an insane lifelink goyf immune to bolt.
I'm playing with this list:
Https://deckstats.net/decks/74507/628552-bw-tokens-v2/en
I would like suggestions and ideas of how to play against mirror.
My meta:
Jund(4)
Infect(3)
Junk(2)
Bant Eldrazi(2)
Afinity(2)
Tokens(2)
Chord(2)
URW Nahiri(2)
Valakut variations(rg and urg)
Well I don't know if this is all in the primer but:
mirror --> side out all the discards. Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession easily dodge or laugh at your hand disruptions. Winning the mirror comes down to anthems (planeswalkers, virtue, or zealous persecution).
BGx --> we don't have room to take out all discards but I don't think we want to. Discards are bad in top deck mode so you don't want too many, as the game will inevitably grind out. You should take out more discards against Abzan (e.g Siege Rhino and Lingering Souls) but against Jund there are more worthy targets (dark confidant, kolaghan's command,anger of the gods, in addition to typical maelstrom pulse and abrupt decay). This deck does not have a lot of turn 1 plays so having hand disruption is still the best play against BGx in the early turns.
Side in Rest in Peace, as this neutralizes almost all their threats and Kolaghan's Command. Try to coordinate this after flashbacking Lingering Souls. Engineered Explosives is decent if you run it. Board in Pithing Needle for Scavenging Ooze, Raging Ravine, and Liliana of Last Hope.
Infect --> side in any removals. This match-up is all about drawing removals while building your own board state. Runed Halo is also superb here. Pithing Needle turns off 4 of their threats, as well as sided-in Spellskite. Zealous persecution obviously.
Affinity --> side in same as Infect, but with more artifact hate.
Bant Eldrazi --> More removal spells if possible. Eldrazi Displacer is a big problem, possibly consider Pithing Needle but maybe not. Zealous persecution to deal with their dorks and trade favorably against the bigger uglies. Any sort of board wipe is good. Put in some kind of artifact/enchantment hate as they often have spellskite or Worship or Chalice of the Void. Selfless spirits I also side in as they always bring in Engineered Explosives and sometimes even a board wipe. They are also good for combat tricks. Runed Halo is great against Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher.
Chord --> Grafdigger's cage or Nihil Spellbomb. Rest in Peace can be great as well, if they are more combo based. Flaying Tendrils if you run any.
UWR Nahiri --> Nihil Spellbomb or any 1-sided graveyard hate. Grafdigger's cage is good. Pithing Needle on Nahiri, which is a problematic card for Tokens exiling enchantments. It can also stop Celestial Colonnade. Side out a couple removals. Duress obviously. Any hand disruption is good as they want to fill their hands.
Valakut --> Runed Halo is great here, against both Valakut and Primieval Titan. Selfless spirits are necessary for sided in Anger of the Gods and Engineered Explosives, as well as providing a decent clock compared to BB. To be honest, this is a difficult deck to side in against. Even things like Fulminator Mages are not great.
1) windbrisk heights : not great. You often hide something weak and it is not worth the tempo loss. At best run 1.
2) shambling vents : my experience was that running 4 was too much, as it results in drawing frequent multiples. Running 2, I started missing the card when I really needed it. So now I run 3. It is a fantastic card against the aggro decks but note that I do play a more controlling build so playing everything on curve is less of an issue. It single-handedly wins the game against Burn sometimes and it helps leverage against board wipes. Against aggros, the opponent is forced to trade off creatures against it because of the lifelink.
I really want to make some kind of honor of the pure build with 4 of these. It becomes an insane lifelink goyf immune to bolt.
The main reason I rather like 4-cmc Elspeth because flinging Shambling Vents is sooo good.
shred memory works good as GY hate,picks four cards of your choice,is instant speed,and has transmute so it tutors in case it's dead in hand.And it's a quarter to buy them versus extraction so its a great budget option. hallowed moonlight is another option,its instant speed,draws a card and is cheap,again,for budget purposes. It also stops hoards of tokens,blink decks,nahiri into emrakul and wurmcoil decks(tron).
Both cards fit into the two mana slot,one draws a card and the other tutors for any two mana spell (bitterblossom)for instance.
Hope this helps those looking for budget options and those that can't find leylines or extractions.
1) windbrisk heights : not great. You often hide something weak and it is not worth the tempo loss. At best run 1.
2) shambling vents : my experience was that running 4 was too much, as it results in drawing frequent multiples. Running 2, I started missing the card when I really needed it. So now I run 3. It is a fantastic card against the aggro decks but note that I do play a more controlling build so playing everything on curve is less of an issue. It single-handedly wins the game against Burn sometimes and it helps leverage against board wipes. Against aggros, the opponent is forced to trade off creatures against it because of the lifelink.
I really want to make some kind of honor of the pure build with 4 of these. It becomes an insane lifelink goyf immune to bolt.
I am presently doing it (vent + honor of the pure) and it is quite magnificent when both are on the board simultaneously. For extra profit I also run the Tidehollow scullers, which come down as 3/3 and occasionally, Thought-Knot Seer. The numbers of interest are 3 vents, 2 honors, 2 tidehollow. There are still 4 virtues, none were cut for the 2 honors. 6 anthems isn't bad at all.
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Heights is only worth it for hiding Elspeth Tirel or Sorin if you are using them. I myself do use both so they are useful.
Casting Elspeth for 1 and then another spectral procession is stupid and fun.
I feel mainboard timely can be just as good as SP if you intentionally take damage to set it off by turn 3 with pain/shock/fetchlands/thoughtseize.
I played tokens originally when it looked more like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3397&d=220933&f=ST and I think it's worth looking at older token playstyles to see why they worked and learn from that, if we want to diverge from splashtalk.
1) windbrisk heights : not great. You often hide something weak and it is not worth the tempo loss. At best run 1.
2) shambling vents : my experience was that running 4 was too much, as it results in drawing frequent multiples. Running 2, I started missing the card when I really needed it. So now I run 3. It is a fantastic card against the aggro decks but note that I do play a more controlling build so playing everything on curve is less of an issue. It single-handedly wins the game against Burn sometimes and it helps leverage against board wipes. Against aggros, the opponent is forced to trade off creatures against it because of the lifelink.
I really want to make some kind of honor of the pure build with 4 of these. It becomes an insane lifelink goyf immune to bolt.
I am presently doing it (vent + honor of the pure) and it is quite magnificent when both are on the board simultaneously. For extra profit I also run the Tidehollow scullers, which come down as 3/3 and occasionally, Thought-Knot Seer. The numbers of interest are 3 vents, 2 honors, 2 tidehollow. There are still 4 virtues, none were cut for the 2 honors. 6 anthems isn't bad at all.
Shambling Vents is just fantastic. I've won so many games off of it. But I personally wouldn't run Tidehollow Sculler ever, Honor of the Pure or not.
Heights is only worth it for hiding Elspeth Tirel or Sorin if you are using them. I myself do use both so they are useful.
Casting Elspeth for 1 and then another spectral procession is stupid and fun.
I feel mainboard timely can be just as good as SP if you intentionally take damage to set it off by turn 3 with pain/shock/fetchlands/thoughtseize.
I played tokens originally when it looked more like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3397&d=220933&f=ST and I think it's worth looking at older token playstyles to see why they worked and learn from that, if we want to diverge from splashtalk.
Indeed it is always nice to look at the older lists. Well, preferably a Modern one rather than Standard. But one thing you'll notice is that even a few years back, the lists before Bitterblossom were much more aggro-midrange oriented. They ran more threats and anthems. Melissa De Tora at one point even suggested we run Gather the Townsfolk just to have more threats. Personally, I think that's stretching it but I agreed with a lot of her deck choices even in today's meta(Liliana of the Veil in side, not running Elspeth/ Hero of Bladehold/ Tidehollow Sculler, sundering growth, etc.).
Running less threats and anthems mean the rest of the cards must be geared towards the control elements. We could start running counterspells but right now Modern is a format where removal spells are just better at what they do which is why I'm going the red splash.
I recently switched out the 1 Flaying Tendril for another Anger of the Gods. Turns out hitting Prized Amalgam and boosted Merfolks is kinda a key point.
A card I've been testing lately is Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I expected it to be a bad spectral procession but it is quite flexible due to the potential burn. Probably won't make the cut but it's not bad.
Definitely switched the deck around and I think it's in a good place. Main board Timely Reinforcements is bonker. 2 Sorin, 2 new Gideon. No Bitterblossom. And secret tech: a 1 of Smugglers Copter (could even be 2). 3/3 easily crewed with card draw. You discard dead plays or Souls. If even pumps up for Murderous Cut this way. Brilliant card in this list.
Lost to Tron in game 1, 2-1. Seems like an impossible match up. Beat Merfolk 2-1 and then Burn 2-0. Aggro seems like a great matchup and Timely/Sorin/Vault just makes Burn cry. Then lost 2-0 to the secret tier 1 deck of the meta, Bant Humans. Was a LONG game. Gummed it up with Sorin/Gideon and tokens.
Yeah, short report but I rarely, if ever, do these. New deck for me, getting a handle on it. Lots of fun. I will bring the deck home and put up a list when I have a chance.
I am still not sold on Ghostly Prison, the timely is a concession to Burn. I am not even going to try against Tron and the same goes for Merfolk. Flaying Tendrils or Wrath of God was in the side, but I think we are better off improving the matches where we stand a chance than ones where we don't.
What are people running for card draw? Just windbrisk heights? I'm thinking of running something like Night's Whisper as a 2 of.
Phyrexian arena is still my favorite card. For those saying its a liability in a fast meta, well, we're the control deck with targeted discard and chump blockers and cheap removal. If we can't stay alive long enough to resolve a 3 cmc enchantment to turn the corner, it just means we failed at our job is all. Arena takes over too many games for me to ever think of replacing.
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While I do agree with michaelvogler I do want to point out that Bitterblossom is extremely important to our long game in most cases.
- send me a decklist (yes fine you can send me a splash list too)
- suggested cards list
- matchup analysis
You can post here or pm.
I find 2 EBT land in any combination to be about the right number, but they definitely aren't mandatory, I'd also cut Windbrisk before cutting Vent every time.
@rick90 I'd cut the 3rd Shock from your list and either add another Fetid, Vent, or Plains.
1) windbrisk heights : not great. You often hide something weak and it is not worth the tempo loss. At best run 1.
2) shambling vents : my experience was that running 4 was too much, as it results in drawing frequent multiples. Running 2, I started missing the card when I really needed it. So now I run 3. It is a fantastic card against the aggro decks but note that I do play a more controlling build so playing everything on curve is less of an issue. It single-handedly wins the game against Burn sometimes and it helps leverage against board wipes. Against aggros, the opponent is forced to trade off creatures against it because of the lifelink.
I really want to make some kind of honor of the pure build with 4 of these. It becomes an insane lifelink goyf immune to bolt.
I'm playing with this list:
Https://deckstats.net/decks/74507/628552-bw-tokens-v2/en
I would like suggestions and ideas of how to play against mirror.
My meta:
Jund(4)
Infect(3)
Junk(2)
Bant Eldrazi(2)
Afinity(2)
Tokens(2)
Chord(2)
URW Nahiri(2)
Valakut variations(rg and urg)
But trust me on the discard...
mirror --> side out all the discards. Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession easily dodge or laugh at your hand disruptions. Winning the mirror comes down to anthems (planeswalkers, virtue, or zealous persecution).
BGx --> we don't have room to take out all discards but I don't think we want to. Discards are bad in top deck mode so you don't want too many, as the game will inevitably grind out. You should take out more discards against Abzan (e.g Siege Rhino and Lingering Souls) but against Jund there are more worthy targets (dark confidant, kolaghan's command,anger of the gods, in addition to typical maelstrom pulse and abrupt decay). This deck does not have a lot of turn 1 plays so having hand disruption is still the best play against BGx in the early turns.
Side in Rest in Peace, as this neutralizes almost all their threats and Kolaghan's Command. Try to coordinate this after flashbacking Lingering Souls. Engineered Explosives is decent if you run it. Board in Pithing Needle for Scavenging Ooze, Raging Ravine, and Liliana of Last Hope.
Infect --> side in any removals. This match-up is all about drawing removals while building your own board state. Runed Halo is also superb here. Pithing Needle turns off 4 of their threats, as well as sided-in Spellskite. Zealous persecution obviously.
Affinity --> side in same as Infect, but with more artifact hate.
Bant Eldrazi --> More removal spells if possible. Eldrazi Displacer is a big problem, possibly consider Pithing Needle but maybe not. Zealous persecution to deal with their dorks and trade favorably against the bigger uglies. Any sort of board wipe is good. Put in some kind of artifact/enchantment hate as they often have spellskite or Worship or Chalice of the Void. Selfless spirits I also side in as they always bring in Engineered Explosives and sometimes even a board wipe. They are also good for combat tricks. Runed Halo is great against Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher.
Chord --> Grafdigger's cage or Nihil Spellbomb. Rest in Peace can be great as well, if they are more combo based. Flaying Tendrils if you run any.
UWR Nahiri --> Nihil Spellbomb or any 1-sided graveyard hate. Grafdigger's cage is good. Pithing Needle on Nahiri, which is a problematic card for Tokens exiling enchantments. It can also stop Celestial Colonnade. Side out a couple removals. Duress obviously. Any hand disruption is good as they want to fill their hands.
Valakut --> Runed Halo is great here, against both Valakut and Primieval Titan. Selfless spirits are necessary for sided in Anger of the Gods and Engineered Explosives, as well as providing a decent clock compared to BB. To be honest, this is a difficult deck to side in against. Even things like Fulminator Mages are not great.
The main reason I rather like 4-cmc Elspeth because flinging Shambling Vents is sooo good.
hallowed moonlight is another option,its instant speed,draws a card and is cheap,again,for budget purposes. It also stops hoards of tokens,blink decks,nahiri into emrakul and wurmcoil decks(tron).
Both cards fit into the two mana slot,one draws a card and the other tutors for any two mana spell (bitterblossom)for instance.
Hope this helps those looking for budget options and those that can't find leylines or extractions.
I am presently doing it (vent + honor of the pure) and it is quite magnificent when both are on the board simultaneously. For extra profit I also run the Tidehollow scullers, which come down as 3/3 and occasionally, Thought-Knot Seer. The numbers of interest are 3 vents, 2 honors, 2 tidehollow. There are still 4 virtues, none were cut for the 2 honors. 6 anthems isn't bad at all.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Casting Elspeth for 1 and then another spectral procession is stupid and fun.
I feel mainboard timely can be just as good as SP if you intentionally take damage to set it off by turn 3 with pain/shock/fetchlands/thoughtseize.
I played tokens originally when it looked more like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3397&d=220933&f=ST and I think it's worth looking at older token playstyles to see why they worked and learn from that, if we want to diverge from splashtalk.
Shambling Vents is just fantastic. I've won so many games off of it. But I personally wouldn't run Tidehollow Sculler ever, Honor of the Pure or not.
Indeed it is always nice to look at the older lists. Well, preferably a Modern one rather than Standard. But one thing you'll notice is that even a few years back, the lists before Bitterblossom were much more aggro-midrange oriented. They ran more threats and anthems. Melissa De Tora at one point even suggested we run Gather the Townsfolk just to have more threats. Personally, I think that's stretching it but I agreed with a lot of her deck choices even in today's meta(Liliana of the Veil in side, not running Elspeth/ Hero of Bladehold/ Tidehollow Sculler, sundering growth, etc.).
Running less threats and anthems mean the rest of the cards must be geared towards the control elements. We could start running counterspells but right now Modern is a format where removal spells are just better at what they do which is why I'm going the red splash.
I recently switched out the 1 Flaying Tendril for another Anger of the Gods. Turns out hitting Prized Amalgam and boosted Merfolks is kinda a key point.
A card I've been testing lately is Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I expected it to be a bad spectral procession but it is quite flexible due to the potential burn. Probably won't make the cut but it's not bad.
Definitely switched the deck around and I think it's in a good place. Main board Timely Reinforcements is bonker. 2 Sorin, 2 new Gideon. No Bitterblossom. And secret tech: a 1 of Smugglers Copter (could even be 2). 3/3 easily crewed with card draw. You discard dead plays or Souls. If even pumps up for Murderous Cut this way. Brilliant card in this list.
Lost to Tron in game 1, 2-1. Seems like an impossible match up. Beat Merfolk 2-1 and then Burn 2-0. Aggro seems like a great matchup and Timely/Sorin/Vault just makes Burn cry. Then lost 2-0 to the secret tier 1 deck of the meta, Bant Humans. Was a LONG game. Gummed it up with Sorin/Gideon and tokens.
Yeah, short report but I rarely, if ever, do these. New deck for me, getting a handle on it. Lots of fun. I will bring the deck home and put up a list when I have a chance.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
1 Swamp
2 Shambling Vent
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Fetid Heath
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Godless Shrine
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Hero of Bladehold
4 Bitterblossom
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Dismember
4 Path of Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
3 Auriok Champion
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Timely Reinforcements
I am still not sold on Ghostly Prison, the timely is a concession to Burn. I am not even going to try against Tron and the same goes for Merfolk. Flaying Tendrils or Wrath of God was in the side, but I think we are better off improving the matches where we stand a chance than ones where we don't.
Yes, I know all about red.
Phyrexian arena is still my favorite card. For those saying its a liability in a fast meta, well, we're the control deck with targeted discard and chump blockers and cheap removal. If we can't stay alive long enough to resolve a 3 cmc enchantment to turn the corner, it just means we failed at our job is all. Arena takes over too many games for me to ever think of replacing.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
3 Monastery Mentor
Instants (13)
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Murderous Cut
1 Secure the Wastes
Sorceries (15)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night's Whisper
4 Intangible Virtue
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands (23)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Zealous Persecution