I kinda like the list a bit better than the red splash that people have been posting about. Although personally I dislike having actual creatures on the field. My build just has spells to create tokens. The biggest thing for me is being able to destroy things on the field other than creatures. Like Enchantments or Walkers. I really like the fact that you will have a favorable matchup against Merfolk with this build, And most likely Affinity. My thoughts on Abrupt Decay are that besides the control decks that would counter it, I think it's overrated. Have you thought about replacing it with Beast Within? This card hits, Ugin, Karn, Eldrazi fatties. Anything that is trying to get to you. Once Ugin hits it's hard to come back. Just a thought. +1 for this deck tho
Cavalry: True, and that is what I thought you meant. I was giving you a hard time. Sorry
I agree with you Mirage, but, green gives us one ace in the hole against control: Voice of Resurgence. If you can land it, then they can counter your stuff, but you still get some value. While that in no way negates Grixis Control, it does make the match up harder for them to sequence correctly and makes their removal that much worse. I also agree your assessment of Abrupt Decay. I do like the idea of siding Beast Within against Tron though. That is brilliant. In fact, that is probably the best idea for splash that I have ever seen.
And terminate is better than bolt?? I can't even right now, I just can't. I don't have enough evens to can't.
Terminate gets Exarch, Iona (They'll usually name white), and Elesh Norn just to name a few problematic creatures that you can't bolt your way around. As has been pointed out we really don't care about the player targeting part of bolt so it just gets used as removal. Path is a better 1cmc removal option, Terminate replaces Go for the Throat, Smother, Doom Blade etc as our additional removal and unlike those doesn't have restrictions.
I play Abzan CoCo as well, and the debate of Path vs Decay has been raging for quite a while in that thread. The verdict is decidedly decay over path (either a split, or 2 decay main and path sb) because it is more versatile and doesn't grant land advantage early. CoCo doesn't have as much room for spells.
Beast Within is okay, but an extra mana, a turn later, and gives them a beast but could hit planeswalkers etc. Although you can turn a 1/1 token that's about to disappear into a 3/3 too, so there's that. Like pathing your own token to find the land you need. Sometimes just the right move.
Incidentally I also play Grixis Twin. In there the argument is cut vs. Terminate vs. Dismember vs. Go for the throat. Even in Grixis the black red cost can be harder on the manabase than cut or GftT. But don't forget about Dreadbore if you are considering red splash as well. Dismember is worth considering as it helps vs some indestructible creatures out there.
It may be worth considering what has been determined in the threads of some of the tier 1-2 decks. Do we need 4 path for example? Or is that held over from an earlier meta. Just playing devils advocate there.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.... lol! Tokens I'd let sit as it was not well placed, but I'm thinking it's due a comeback!
I'm okay with hero of bladehold, bft, and voice as my only creatures rather than being a token purist. They have value.
The argument that bolt isn't as useful as discard in the early games is something you can make about virtually any removal spell. I'd rather see bolt than path most of the times in the early game. In fact, i don't like running 4 paths due to giving the enemy an extra land. I may side a couple possibly but there are better options like terminate if you decide to splash red. I stick with 2-3 paths.
Voice of the resurgence is great against control. Against anything else...? I think I would rather stick with auriok champion if I did run a creature build. And by the way, I realized we could run dark confidants if we replace midnight haunting for spectral procession. Just a food for thought.
And is dragon tempest actually worth running? It seems like a bad conditional bolt most of the times.
I am considering moving mardu charm up to 2. It is simply way too versatile.
Good points. But why not run go for the throat over terminate to avoid spellskite?
I think that would be very meta dependant as I have yet to see Skite out of the side vs tokens. Though the Skite issue does bring up another reason for Red splash. Wear/Tear cannot be jacked by Skite if you're going after enchantments unlike disenchant variants, plus you can fuse it to kill Skite while you're at it. Terminate also gets Nexuses which can be relevant in Infect/Affinity heavy metas as it gives you ~2 more removal vs them.
Good points. But why not run go for the throat over terminate to avoid spellskite?
Indeed, what I've been doing, GftT MB in my Grixis Twin. Should do that in tokens too. Although the other Grixis Twin players seem not to get the MB with a 1/1 Terminate/Throat split I do over 2 Terminates main. That colorless mana does help in Grixis, or Mardu with mana base. Should be a good card here too. The argument that Twin wants skite gone makes it an even better removal card for tokens. Decay still has more applications.
Round 1 (1-0) Zoo
honestly I should have lost he miss played game 3 pretty badly and flat out punted, Game 1 was close but he got me game 2 I rolled with a great curve
Round 2 (2-0) Infect
Not much to say here I won both games easily, game 2 Zealous on double elf was sweet
Round 3 (2-1) BW Tokens
G1 he drew more spectrals than I did\
G2 I curved out great, he didn't
G3 I drew awful he got Intagible and Zealous and I didn't
Round 4 (3-1) Burn
Stole game 1
Game 2 Forge Tender, Double firewalker nough said
I've been playing tokens for the last 18mo as my main deck and the current meta is the most hostile I've ever seen it towards this deck.
Every time I join a league it seems like a get 2x tron matches that I swear I'm about 25% to win, they basically have to draw bad even an average hand will get there it seems like vs tokens.
The long and short of it in regards to b/w tokens right now is that you're a big dog to burn, tron and bloom... That's half of the top tier, not a fun place to be.
The deck's strength is vs junk/jund, any fair deck and it's more or less a 50/50 vs all the twin decks maybe even a favorite.
If bloom gets hit with a ban, we can probably get the burn match to 50/50 with a good sideboard and some main deck TR. Then it's just tron that we're dead to, that is sort of where things where 6 months ago when I thought this was a strong deck to run out in wide open events and MTGO leagues.
Also, looking at mtgoldfish and seeing a Gaddok teeg buyout and eye of Ugin going up up up, I'm of the opinion that you'll see a ton of tron at the Modern PT and subsequently afterwards on MTGO. Seems like people are gearing up to play tron or board teeg against it.
Does anyone still use Elspeth tirel in this deck? With Oath of Gideon spoiled, Elspeth can ultimate on cast, ruining whatever your opponent has on the other side. Considering you'll already have some tokens and a pump out, seems pretty devastating.
How on earth are you a big dog to burn? 2 Aurioks, 2 Timelys and 3 Sorins main make it really hard for them to win. Plus 4 Inquisition of kozilek to stop them.
That matter of factly? Id think it would at least be worth trying. Sorin would ultimate on your next turn, lili could force sac twice, and I think it puts tirel back in play. It's been a long time since ive run this deck though so I could be out of touch. Don't forget too, the oath produces 2 tokens itself.
I don't think Oath should be dismissed out-of-hand but I suspect its planeswalker-boosting ability would only very rarely be as relevant as the advantages of competing token generators. And adding more PWs would just draw focus from the main gameplan. If you wanted to give it a whirl though I'd say just as a one-of.
I believe an Oath build exists for this deck, and I believe it could be VERY powerful. Planeswalker ultimates as soon as they hit the board? Yes please! This would probably be a more controlling variation, but it could work.
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I play 3 Voice in Coco. Most Coco players are huge supporters of Voice. Opponent needs to deal with it. It causes them issues on your turn like Grand Abolisher. However, despite Voice being a cornerstone and intimidating in Coco, the Voice tokens never get that big. In tokens they'd be much better placed.
Looking at the Grixis Twin thread, they've just been discussing the Eldrazi Processor deck with fear. In the same paragraph they fear tokens, but still laugh that Tokens still isn't showing much in dailies. I think our discussion here and testing is a key to turning this around.
Tirel + Oath is pretty sweet, but I can't think of very many decks that are running enough non-creature (non-land) permanents that make it worth it. It does amount to Plague Wind most of the time, but you also lose any anthems, blossom, walkers, and oath itself.
On the topic of Oath itself I also think it is worth testing if you are running around 5ish walkers. I don't think 3 mana 2 1/1 ground pounders is worth the slot alone (especially considering the potential glut of 3 mana cards already), so having the ability to take advantage of the second ability is important.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Well Oath seems like a win more card when it is played in the ideal scenario. Otherwise, we typically play tokens turn 3 and want a pw on turn 4. Oath demands we play it somewhere in between, which ruins the curve. If it was 2 mana, it might have seen play but being legendary is also problematic.
Best way to deal with Tron and Bloom without flat out losing is to splash red imo but perhaps a green or blue splash have something to offer.
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I agree with you Mirage, but, green gives us one ace in the hole against control: Voice of Resurgence. If you can land it, then they can counter your stuff, but you still get some value. While that in no way negates Grixis Control, it does make the match up harder for them to sequence correctly and makes their removal that much worse. I also agree your assessment of Abrupt Decay. I do like the idea of siding Beast Within against Tron though. That is brilliant. In fact, that is probably the best idea for splash that I have ever seen.
Terminate gets Exarch, Iona (They'll usually name white), and Elesh Norn just to name a few problematic creatures that you can't bolt your way around. As has been pointed out we really don't care about the player targeting part of bolt so it just gets used as removal. Path is a better 1cmc removal option, Terminate replaces Go for the Throat, Smother, Doom Blade etc as our additional removal and unlike those doesn't have restrictions.
Beast Within is okay, but an extra mana, a turn later, and gives them a beast but could hit planeswalkers etc. Although you can turn a 1/1 token that's about to disappear into a 3/3 too, so there's that. Like pathing your own token to find the land you need. Sometimes just the right move.
Incidentally I also play Grixis Twin. In there the argument is cut vs. Terminate vs. Dismember vs. Go for the throat. Even in Grixis the black red cost can be harder on the manabase than cut or GftT. But don't forget about Dreadbore if you are considering red splash as well. Dismember is worth considering as it helps vs some indestructible creatures out there.
It may be worth considering what has been determined in the threads of some of the tier 1-2 decks. Do we need 4 path for example? Or is that held over from an earlier meta. Just playing devils advocate there.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.... lol! Tokens I'd let sit as it was not well placed, but I'm thinking it's due a comeback!
I'm okay with hero of bladehold, bft, and voice as my only creatures rather than being a token purist. They have value.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Voice of the resurgence is great against control. Against anything else...? I think I would rather stick with auriok champion if I did run a creature build. And by the way, I realized we could run dark confidants if we replace midnight haunting for spectral procession. Just a food for thought.
And is dragon tempest actually worth running? It seems like a bad conditional bolt most of the times.
I am considering moving mardu charm up to 2. It is simply way too versatile.
I think that would be very meta dependant as I have yet to see Skite out of the side vs tokens. Though the Skite issue does bring up another reason for Red splash. Wear/Tear cannot be jacked by Skite if you're going after enchantments unlike disenchant variants, plus you can fuse it to kill Skite while you're at it. Terminate also gets Nexuses which can be relevant in Infect/Affinity heavy metas as it gives you ~2 more removal vs them.
Indeed, what I've been doing, GftT MB in my Grixis Twin. Should do that in tokens too. Although the other Grixis Twin players seem not to get the MB with a 1/1 Terminate/Throat split I do over 2 Terminates main. That colorless mana does help in Grixis, or Mardu with mana base. Should be a good card here too. The argument that Twin wants skite gone makes it an even better removal card for tokens. Decay still has more applications.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Raise the Alarm
2x Bitterblossom
1x Secure the wastes
4x Intangible Virtue
4x Path to Exile
1x Smother
1x Murderous Cut
4x Inquistion of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Liliana of Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Windswept Heath
4x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Fetid Heath
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Swamp
7x Plains
2x Stony Silence
2x Kor Firewalker
1x Burrenton Forge tender
2x Timley Reinforcements
2x Rest in Peace
1x Duress
2x Wrath of God
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Disenchant
Round 1 (1-0) Zoo
honestly I should have lost he miss played game 3 pretty badly and flat out punted, Game 1 was close but he got me game 2 I rolled with a great curve
Round 2 (2-0) Infect
Not much to say here I won both games easily, game 2 Zealous on double elf was sweet
Round 3 (2-1) BW Tokens
G1 he drew more spectrals than I did\
G2 I curved out great, he didn't
G3 I drew awful he got Intagible and Zealous and I didn't
Round 4 (3-1) Burn
Stole game 1
Game 2 Forge Tender, Double firewalker nough said
Every time I join a league it seems like a get 2x tron matches that I swear I'm about 25% to win, they basically have to draw bad even an average hand will get there it seems like vs tokens.
The long and short of it in regards to b/w tokens right now is that you're a big dog to burn, tron and bloom... That's half of the top tier, not a fun place to be.
The deck's strength is vs junk/jund, any fair deck and it's more or less a 50/50 vs all the twin decks maybe even a favorite.
If bloom gets hit with a ban, we can probably get the burn match to 50/50 with a good sideboard and some main deck TR. Then it's just tron that we're dead to, that is sort of where things where 6 months ago when I thought this was a strong deck to run out in wide open events and MTGO leagues.
Also, looking at mtgoldfish and seeing a Gaddok teeg buyout and eye of Ugin going up up up, I'm of the opinion that you'll see a ton of tron at the Modern PT and subsequently afterwards on MTGO. Seems like people are gearing up to play tron or board teeg against it.
That matter of factly? Id think it would at least be worth trying. Sorin would ultimate on your next turn, lili could force sac twice, and I think it puts tirel back in play. It's been a long time since ive run this deck though so I could be out of touch. Don't forget too, the oath produces 2 tokens itself.
For Elves, check out Hour of Reckoning as a sideboard option. I have found it to be quite good against elves and Merfolk, in particular.
Looking at the Grixis Twin thread, they've just been discussing the Eldrazi Processor deck with fear. In the same paragraph they fear tokens, but still laugh that Tokens still isn't showing much in dailies. I think our discussion here and testing is a key to turning this around.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
On the topic of Oath itself I also think it is worth testing if you are running around 5ish walkers. I don't think 3 mana 2 1/1 ground pounders is worth the slot alone (especially considering the potential glut of 3 mana cards already), so having the ability to take advantage of the second ability is important.
Best way to deal with Tron and Bloom without flat out losing is to splash red imo but perhaps a green or blue splash have something to offer.