I agree. You can fill your deck with land destruction (ghost quarter, tec edge, field of ruin) and make this a winning deck against tron. The problem is that you lose so much to your good match ups it isn't worth it unless your field is tron.
Because currently we have anguished unmaking and while it is very versatile it doesn't make the match much better
Vindicate is a little slow to combat Tron, but you could do it on the play. One would need a little luck when on the draw.
Vindicate one Tron land and then extract it and Voila! No Tron for you!
This is of course even easier with a Ghost Quarter, but having an extra card or two that can get the job done is a good thing. Vindicate can also take care of Ugin, and Karn and can make Wurmcoil into Push-able bits. That last is sort of a desperate measure but one does what he must.
Vindicate is a turn slower than Trophy, but it doesn't replace the land. BW tokens is even slower than Rock or especially Jund, so it's an even worse match-up with Tron, but Vindicate would move the needle a very small amount in the positive direction. Moreover, Vindicate just has a great deal of other uses and it doesn't cost three life.
how do we beat amulet or is it like tron. autoloss
Well it depends a lot on your draw, if you get discard spells on the play and get the amulet and then some of the enablers they are going to have a hard time, after sideabord bringing lost legacy or runed halo (naming titan or valakut) can make the game a win.
Unlike tron where every card they play is a bomb against us and so we can't answer all of them Amulet just has two cards to be concerned about: titan and valakut. Obviously a nut hand from them can kill us in turn 2 but also pretty much any other deck looses to them that way.
how do we beat amulet or is it like tron. autoloss
It's definitly not a good matchup, but we can win if we play it well and know how to disrupt the deck. I play against it a lot and like to think I understand the matchup pretty well, so let me see if I can help a little.
Amulet Titan is really complicated, that goes both for the player and the opponent. If one only faces it once in a while (even though it has gotten more popular recently) chances are one might not even know everything the deck is capable of.
The main things to understand here are firstly, how their landbase works (and how much slower it gets without Amulet of Vigor and Azusa, Lost but Seeking) and secondly, that dealing with one Primeval Titan is almost never enough since the usual lands an experienced Amulet player will get are a Simic Growth Chamber and Tolaria West to tutor up Summoner's Pact and get another Titan (rinse and repeat).
A good Amulet player will only go for the burst damage option of Slayers' Stronghold and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion if they know there is very little chance of it not killing you.
The first thing you need to do in order to win this matchup is disrupt their gameplan by slowing down their mana production. This can best be done through our discard spells. Your main targets early on are Amulet of Vigor if you can catch it on t1 (always go for this if you can) and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. This changes slightly once they have the mana down to cast their big guys, or already have an established Amulet or Azusa on the board. In that case go for Primeval Titan, Engineered Explosives and Summoner's Pact(before they have the mana to pay for it, since it's an instant) and potentially Walking Ballista (if they have a lot of mana to cast a big one).
The second thing that's necesary to win is to disrupt the decks combo engine. This is to slow them down enough to where a durdly deck like ours can actually kill them before they kill us. The unfortunate thing is, that we can't really do this in game one, as we need sideboard cards for it. Bring in Surgical Extractionesque effects. Your main targets in order of priority are Summoner's Pact, Primeval Titan and Tolaria West. Engineered Explosives is on that list too, IF you know that they're playing more than 1.
This part of the gameplan is extremely important, just discard is not enough to disrupt them, as they can very easily tutor up the things they need on a whim. You will not win a topdeck war unless the Amulet player gets VERY VERY unlucky.
As far as sideboard cards are concerned, here are some that have served me well:
Damping Sphere: It's another way to slow down their mana production. It will buy you time (usually a few turns) but won't win you the game, you need to combine this with a clock.
Aven Mindcensor: Arguably the best card vs them, as it disrupts their combo engine all by itself. Amulet also plays very little interaction, so they'll struggle to get rid of the bird.
Surgical Extraction: Or really any effect like it. These help to disrupt the combo engine. Very important!
login suggested Runed Halo, which I don't love in the matchup, but it can work. The thing is, that even if their Titans can't damage you, they'll still attack and tutor up all the lands they need to find what they need to kill you through the Halo.
Also he mentioned Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle , which is not a card Amulet Titan plays, that one belongs to Titanshift, which is a very different deck.
how do we beat amulet or is it like tron. autoloss
It's definitly not a good matchup, but we can win if we play it well and know how to disrupt the deck. I play against it a lot and like to think I understand the matchup pretty well, so let me see if I can help a little.
Amulet Titan is really complicated, that goes both for the player and the opponent. If one only faces it once in a while (even though it has gotten more popular recently) chances are one might not even know everything the deck is capable of.
The main things to understand here are firstly, how their landbase works (and how much slower it gets without Amulet of Vigor and Azusa, Lost but Seeking) and secondly, that dealing with one Primeval Titan is almost never enough since the usual lands an experienced Amulet player will get are a Simic Growth Chamber and Tolaria West to tutor up Summoner's Pact and get another Titan (rinse and repeat).
A good Amulet player will only go for the burst damage option of Slayers' Stronghold and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion if they know there is very little chance of it not killing you.
The first thing you need to do in order to win this matchup is disrupt their gameplan by slowing down their mana production. This can best be done through our discard spells. Your main targets early on are Amulet of Vigor if you can catch it on t1 (always go for this if you can) and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. This changes slightly once they have the mana down to cast their big guys, or already have an established Amulet or Azusa on the board. In that case go for Primeval Titan, Engineered Explosives and Summoner's Pact(before they have the mana to pay for it, since it's an instant) and potentially Walking Ballista (if they have a lot of mana to cast a big one).
The second thing that's necesary to win is to disrupt the decks combo engine. This is to slow them down enough to where a durdly deck like ours can actually kill them before they kill us. The unfortunate thing is, that we can't really do this in game one, as we need sideboard cards for it. Bring in Surgical Extractionesque effects. Your main targets in order of priority are Summoner's Pact, Primeval Titan and Tolaria West. Engineered Explosives is on that list too, IF you know that they're playing more than 1.
This part of the gameplan is extremely important, just discard is not enough to disrupt them, as they can very easily tutor up the things they need on a whim. You will not win a topdeck war unless the Amulet player gets VERY VERY unlucky.
As far as sideboard cards are concerned, here are some that have served me well:
Damping Sphere: It's another way to slow down their mana production. It will buy you time (usually a few turns) but won't win you the game, you need to combine this with a clock.
Aven Mindcensor: Arguably the best card vs them, as it disrupts their combo engine all by itself. Amulet also plays very little interaction, so they'll struggle to get rid of the bird.
Surgical Extraction: Or really any effect like it. These help to disrupt the combo engine. Very important!
login suggested Runed Halo, which I don't love in the matchup, but it can work. The thing is, that even if their Titans can't damage you, they'll still attack and tutor up all the lands they need to find what they need to kill you through the Halo.
Also he mentioned Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle , which is not a card Amulet Titan plays, that one belongs to Titanshift, which is a very different deck.
I've come by to congratulate the BW tokens community on the printing of Despark. A clean and cheap answer to virtually everything Tron casts save O-stone, which you have Stony Silences for. Ugin will still buy them a lot of time, but eh.
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It's questionable whether Despark will earn a place in the side-board. Obviously, in a given LGS there might be enough Tron to justify it, but it probably won't make it in a broader environment. I might be wrong.
I've beaten Tron with Damping Sphere and Stony Silence - he cast Oblivion Stone in between, lol - and last FNM I beat momo-U Tron in two games with just Damping Sphere.
But it's still a pretty horrible match-up and I doubt Despark is going to fix it.
Despark also hits a few targets in Izzet Pheonix. Granted Path is better but i'll still take the extra removal.
Well, not *strictly* better, given that nix wants to chain 3 spells and the more lands you give them, the easier it will be for them to accomplish that without manamorphose. Like Reid Duke said, you can't underestimate the downside of ramping the opponent.
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I agree with pzbw7z here, Despark is probably far too specific to actually make our deck much better than it currently is. Sure it'll help a bit vs Tron, but it still will be a horrible matchup and it'll take a way sideboard slots in our already overfilled sideboards which we need to fight vs other decks.
Vindicate would be a nice addition. One could certainly justify a copy of two in the 75.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Because currently we have anguished unmaking and while it is very versatile it doesn't make the match much better
Vindicate one Tron land and then extract it and Voila! No Tron for you!
This is of course even easier with a Ghost Quarter, but having an extra card or two that can get the job done is a good thing. Vindicate can also take care of Ugin, and Karn and can make Wurmcoil into Push-able bits. That last is sort of a desperate measure but one does what he must.
The ability to run Field of Ruin or Ghost Quarter along with Assassin's Trophy makes Rock about 40%-60% against Tron whereas Jund is nearly an auto-loss.
Vindicate is a turn slower than Trophy, but it doesn't replace the land. BW tokens is even slower than Rock or especially Jund, so it's an even worse match-up with Tron, but Vindicate would move the needle a very small amount in the positive direction. Moreover, Vindicate just has a great deal of other uses and it doesn't cost three life.
A short list of targets include:
any other obnoxious enchantment or artifact, and any creature even if the CMC is over four without provided a compensatory land.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
Well it depends a lot on your draw, if you get discard spells on the play and get the amulet and then some of the enablers they are going to have a hard time, after sideabord bringing lost legacy or runed halo (naming titan or valakut) can make the game a win.
Unlike tron where every card they play is a bomb against us and so we can't answer all of them Amulet just has two cards to be concerned about: titan and valakut. Obviously a nut hand from them can kill us in turn 2 but also pretty much any other deck looses to them that way.
It's definitly not a good matchup, but we can win if we play it well and know how to disrupt the deck. I play against it a lot and like to think I understand the matchup pretty well, so let me see if I can help a little.
Amulet Titan is really complicated, that goes both for the player and the opponent. If one only faces it once in a while (even though it has gotten more popular recently) chances are one might not even know everything the deck is capable of.
The main things to understand here are firstly, how their landbase works (and how much slower it gets without Amulet of Vigor and Azusa, Lost but Seeking) and secondly, that dealing with one Primeval Titan is almost never enough since the usual lands an experienced Amulet player will get are a Simic Growth Chamber and Tolaria West to tutor up Summoner's Pact and get another Titan (rinse and repeat).
A good Amulet player will only go for the burst damage option of Slayers' Stronghold and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion if they know there is very little chance of it not killing you.
The first thing you need to do in order to win this matchup is disrupt their gameplan by slowing down their mana production. This can best be done through our discard spells. Your main targets early on are Amulet of Vigor if you can catch it on t1 (always go for this if you can) and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. This changes slightly once they have the mana down to cast their big guys, or already have an established Amulet or Azusa on the board. In that case go for Primeval Titan, Engineered Explosives and Summoner's Pact(before they have the mana to pay for it, since it's an instant) and potentially Walking Ballista (if they have a lot of mana to cast a big one).
The second thing that's necesary to win is to disrupt the decks combo engine. This is to slow them down enough to where a durdly deck like ours can actually kill them before they kill us. The unfortunate thing is, that we can't really do this in game one, as we need sideboard cards for it. Bring in Surgical Extractionesque effects. Your main targets in order of priority are Summoner's Pact, Primeval Titan and Tolaria West. Engineered Explosives is on that list too, IF you know that they're playing more than 1.
This part of the gameplan is extremely important, just discard is not enough to disrupt them, as they can very easily tutor up the things they need on a whim. You will not win a topdeck war unless the Amulet player gets VERY VERY unlucky.
As far as sideboard cards are concerned, here are some that have served me well:
Damping Sphere: It's another way to slow down their mana production. It will buy you time (usually a few turns) but won't win you the game, you need to combine this with a clock.
Aven Mindcensor: Arguably the best card vs them, as it disrupts their combo engine all by itself. Amulet also plays very little interaction, so they'll struggle to get rid of the bird.
Surgical Extraction: Or really any effect like it. These help to disrupt the combo engine. Very important!
Anguished Unmaking: or really any insant speed removal that can save you from a charging Primeval Titan is very nice to have.
login suggested Runed Halo, which I don't love in the matchup, but it can work. The thing is, that even if their Titans can't damage you, they'll still attack and tutor up all the lands they need to find what they need to kill you through the Halo.
Also he mentioned Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle , which is not a card Amulet Titan plays, that one belongs to Titanshift, which is a very different deck.
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've beaten Tron with Damping Sphere and Stony Silence - he cast Oblivion Stone in between, lol - and last FNM I beat momo-U Tron in two games with just Damping Sphere.
But it's still a pretty horrible match-up and I doubt Despark is going to fix it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Well, not *strictly* better, given that nix wants to chain 3 spells and the more lands you give them, the easier it will be for them to accomplish that without manamorphose. Like Reid Duke said, you can't underestimate the downside of ramping the opponent.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
BWB/W Tokens
Pauper:
RUGAffinity
EDH:
BWAyli, Eternal Pilgrim
I like having 3 alpine moons and 3 stony silence in my sideboard.
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