So thats 2 bad MU covered by 1 card, which is a decent qualification for the board.
I never said the card was bad. I literally listed all the reasons for why you could consider playing the card. What I did say was you shouldn't make a crappy Mardu build just to play the thing and instead play 1 Sacred Foundry if Valakut bothers you that much. Meanwhile decent sideboard options for Tron already exist. Pithing Needle is highly underrated for this matchup and useful for things like KCI, manlands, Lantern Control, etc.
I'm more inclined to say that the incredible amount of disruption still hasn't allowed this deck any good finishes since,
Good finishes are influenced by (a) how many people play the deck and (b) how many people that play the deck choose not to play garbage lists like you. Unfortunately both those factors don't look so great for this deck. People buy this deck because it's more budget friendly, hence the lower skill floor of the players. It's the same reason the old Amulet Bloom deck never gained popularity despite being objectively the best deck in the format by win %.
Legion's Landing. Making Legion's Landing flip means you're winning? Let's be real, you'll attack with plenty of games with 3 tokens but it won't mean the game is won yet.
It doesn't mean you're winning, it just means that extra land isn't going to be doing anything 90% of the time because by then you already have 3-4 lands in play. The more serious reason to not run the card is because you're playing a 1/1 lifelink with no evasion for one mana. That's a terrible conversion rate. Instead of relying on a 1/1 lifelink card to shore up your aggro match, why don't you actually 'get gud' and play some more removals and discard spells that will save your more life in the long run? Am I being too logical here?
RE: Mardu Pyromancer. As you have pointed out, whether a deck is good or not depends on the meta. Its good now. Is BW Tokens "better" than this? Hell no. How long has it been since a meta that favored this deck was present? I mean you can carry on waiting, while the rest of us post "terrible decks". Maybe another year?
Uh you do realize Mardu Pyromancer has terrible conversation rates? Just to give an example 0/6 Mardu players made Pro Tour top 35 in a creature heavy meta. Yeah BW Tokens is a better deck than this garbage. Your control elements - a.k.a discards and removals - are nearly as good; actually it's better because their mana base can't handle path to exile which is the only way to deal with Gurmag Angler and Hollow Ones. This deck is geared to beat only one deck and that's Humans. Meanwhile BW Tokens has by far the better control, combo, and even most creature matchups. You think BW Tokens has a bad matchup against Valakut and Tron? Try playing Mardu Pyromancer, which can barely get cards into the graveyard. BW Tokens is better against removals, beats creature decks with evasion, and applies faster pressure most of the time.
Tokens is hell of a lot better than people think it is with a proper build and the right pilot. You complain about "not the right meta" based on what exactly? The meta is way better now than it was a 1-2 years ago when I moved on to Legacy. Combo decks are at an all time low and most of the aggro decks aside from Humans is a decent matchup like Shadows, Affinity, and even Burn. Ux Control is like 50/50 depending on how you build the deck. Tron is the one popular deck that's heavily favored against Tokens but now you have far superior answers to Tron than you did a year ago. Warning issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
yikes emu, pardon me for picking a fight with you, what with all your pro tour wins and... wait who are you again?
Oh, a netdecker. Look, there's a place called r/spikes where you don't have to deal with this pesky thing called an imagination.
Its a classic excuse, "the deck isn't performing because nobody plays it". That's like saying the Chery QQ is actually an amazing car, it just hasn't won any rallies or races because nobody brings it there. BW tokens isn't brought to the races because people know better. Maybe I'm being too harsh on you, because you DID move on to another format a year ago, right?
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You guys are going against the last 2 years of posts in this thread. We have always been a nice and constructive community that would ALWAYS listen to opinions and help people needing some advice. What you are doing here is childish and only damages the forum and your reputation. I would kindly ask you to stop this and behave as the rest of the forum has always treated you. Thanks.
Now to the matter. I am very much in line with what emu said. This deck is much better than the tier says, mainly because of the number of players in competitive events. Last two "big" events I have been to were a PPTQ where I went 6th out of 40+ people (7-2-1 I believe), and a MKM modern event where I went 6-4 but with some punting on my side, to be honest. In september I will be taking this deck to GP Stockholm, where OBVIOUSLY I plan to win hehe. I will be making some meta analysis and SB tech in the upcoming weeks, so guys be ready to contribute.
The only thing I disagree with is Legion's Landing. I have tried it before and the card feels really powerful. We dont usually play it turn 1, because most of the people running it run 1 or 2 max. It is however, a free creature if you already have 3 creatures (which doesnt mean you are already winning) and the late game is very powerful. Agree that discard is very important, but give it a try if you havent yet. I am currently playing 2 of them. Along with 6 discard spells, 2 CB, 2 Lilianas, I dont feel I need more disruption than that.
I might repeat some of what tarotplz just said, but here are my 2cents:
- With only 2 PW main, Windbrisk Heights are definitely not worth it. Replace for the 4th Courtyard.
- DiStone is really not good enough. If you are targeting tokens, you already have ZP in the main, which should get the job done 99% of the times (most tokens are 1/1s). I would remove these two for sure.
- 3 Zealous seem a bit too much. Considering that you run 15 token generators (which is slightly over the average) I could see playing 3. But I believe 2 is the right number.
- This leaves us 3 slots, that should be filled with 2 Fatal Push and probably another walker. I think running 3 Sorins main is the right call. At least, that is what I intend to do for GP Stockholm too. I have been playing around with SLoI, but I am going back to SSV for the GP. No jokes there.
- If you, for example, cant get 2 FP, maybe you could fit a copy of Start/Finish there. Adds more tokens and a removal spell. The card is better in midrange versions, but if you are adding it on top, and not replacing any of the key token generators, it can only do good.
- I dont really like adding HotPure, because 5 anthems might be dead cards sometimes and you dont want to lose momentum on the board. Specially with ZP. If you time is correctly, you will probably be able to blow your opponent in 1 attack.
About the SB:
We are talking GP, so you want to have things clear.
2x Auriok Champion: I play it myself, but I am very likely going to replace it with somthing. Even against burn is sometimes too slow, and the only other good application is DeathShadow decks, but we are already favoured there. In my case, I am considering timely reinforcements and Runed halo for that spot (maybe blessed alliance).
1x Basilisk Collar: I never got to really test this card because I didnt really had many chances. It can be great, and it is something I am definitely considering.
2x Damping Sphere: I replaced my 3 Stony with them. I see you run 2/1, and that is okay too. I just like consistency.
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: Great card but in your deck, this is an easy maindeck card. Maybe the third Sorin that I mentioned, or one of the FP. This guy is great.
1x Pithing Needle: Cheap narrow answer for everything. In a GP? I think it is a must have. 2 wont hurt.
2x Rest in Peace: great. Considering you pack 4 GQ, I would try to fit some surgical extractions or extirpates for tron lands. they are also good against combo decks (combined with discard) and can be played t1. Sometimes t2 is too late to drop RiP (for example, on the draw).
1x Stony Silence
2x Sundering Growth: disenchant here. Not worth the risk
2x Wrath of God: If you run 15+ tokens, I dont think this card is as bad you say. You just have to play it when the outcome is favourable for you. Just play it smart, and you will be able to rebuild much faster than you opponent, given that you buffered some tokens in hand (or Lingering Souls in GY). If you have a damnation, run 1 and 1, because humans is a thing and meddling mage is a pain in the ass. If you really dont like it, Ghostly Prison works great too.
Gather the Townsfolk feels very lackluster in comparison to the other token producers we like to run. You really only want it on t2 and you'll never be at 5 or less life by then. It's a worse topdeck than RtA becasue it can't suprise block anything.
Gather the Townsfolk saw some play a few years ago. Melissa De Tora sometimes played it in her Pro-Tour decks. That was a bunch of cards ago; I haven't seen it in the discussion for a good while. Still, dropping five tokens has to be a fells-good moment.
I am now playing 2 Blessed Alliances in the side. The decision was made because Auriok Champion was not good enough IMO. Options I considered were:
- Timely Reinforcements: Great card, but itbeing a sorcery and the lack of versatility makes not really appealing. I had this card in my deck some time ago, but burn players see it coming from far away. They just need to leave up their skullcrack mana and EOT boros charm you.
- Leyline of Sanctity: Big tournaments rely on consistency, and this card is everything but that. Helps in a lot of matchups, but the math of running 2 copies in the SB is very bad. Even going up to 4 would not be too good, and would take slots from SB.
Blessed Alliance is just more versatile and easy to play. It also works against Eldrazis, bogles... So I think i am settled now.
I also included the third Sorin, Solemn Visitor over SorinLoI, and the deck felt much better yesterday in the testing. Played against burn, goblins, and infect. Burn is really 50/50, although 2 Legions landing help. Goblins is 60-40, and Infect is like 90-10.
For a deck to want both 4 RtA and 4 Gather the Townsfolk there must be some pay off for it, since Gather is really quite.. bad. Possible pay off cards are Legion's Landing and Windbrisk heights, since these will reward you for attacking with 3, and maxing out on 2 drop token makers helps you get the pay off on turn 3 as consistently as possible.
Otherwise if 2 cmc cards are in want, I'd look toward additional anthem effects like Honor of the Pure, Zealous Persecution is very sweet against mardu pyro and affinity.
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For a deck to want both 4 RtA and 4 Gather the Townsfolk there must be some pay off for it, since Gather is really quite.. bad.
No one would want four Gather the Townsfolk. Melissa played two back in the day. There are probably better options today, but I'm not sure I would want Honor of the Pure over Townsfolk. Those are the two things that come to mind for two-drops to play on-curve but I've never played either personally in BW tokens. Zealous Persecution is a good two-drop but it isn't an on-the-curve card so it doesn't help with the curve-out plan.
While I don't plan to try it myself, a copy or two of Townsfolk is far from the worst idea I've heard here. Four copies would be; however, a really really bad idea.
guys, what is your opinion about the humans matchup? I have been testing and it feels quite winnable. My SB strategy is: -2 LotV +1 Damnation +1 Wrath of God
Key cards:
t1 discard is extremely powerful. I win most of the times I am able to cut them off from their explosive starts.
removal: obviously
Vault of the archangel creates super favourable trades
Sorin performs also great. Sometimes, if the table is stable enough, we dont want to immediately attack (unless we have virtue), but to keep Sorin alive and emblem him.
Bitterblossom: attacking with a 7/7 champion of the parish? I would rather eat 1 life from BB, thanks. IMPRESSIVE CARD THIS BB
Opinions? How do you guys approach the MU? Thanks for the feedback!!
2-1 against BW superfriends
A more PW-based version of our deck. I grindy games, we are the best.
IN: Pithing needle
OUT: Lilianas
2-1 against Jund
No sideboard. Game 2, he could take over after I mulliganed and he stuck a Lili, the last hope. Otherwise easy.
1-2 against 4C shadow
This is usually a very good matchup. But the draws were just not great. I drew many lands and 1 token generator in one of the games... Crazy. I guess ***** happens sometimes.
IN: Blessed alliance, RiP
OUT: collective brutality, 1 legions landing
1-2 against knightfall creatures
deck featuring knight of the reliquary, Collected company and so on. Game one I resisted with BB but couldnt find a lifegain source to take over the game. Game two I made him discard very heavy and couldnt keep up. Game 3 I made a dumb mistake by not playing tokens and hoping to draw a land next turn for damnation. I had a bit of bad luck, but I definitely should have chumped while I could.
IN: Damnation, Wrath, 1 Pithing, 1 Surgical
OUT: Lilis, Legions Landing
After the match, i should have brought a disenchant or 2 instead of the needle and/or the surgical because of Worship.
Not really happy about the results. But I feel deaths shadow is definitely one of our best matchups, hands down. Was just bad luck. CoCo decks are sometimes too explosive for us if we dont stop them quickly. Leasons learnt, and keep going
2-1 against BW superfriends
A more PW-based version of our deck. I grindy games, we are the best.
IN: Pithing needle
OUT: Lilianas
2-1 against Jund
No sideboard. Game 2, he could take over after I mulliganed and he stuck a Lili, the last hope. Otherwise easy.
1-2 against 4C shadow
This is usually a very good matchup. But the draws were just not great. I drew many lands and 1 token generator in one of the games... Crazy. I guess ***** happens sometimes.
IN: Blessed alliance, RiP
OUT: collective brutality, 1 legions landing
1-2 against knightfall creatures
deck featuring knight of the reliquary, Collected company and so on. Game one I resisted with BB but couldnt find a lifegain source to take over the game. Game two I made him discard very heavy and couldnt keep up. Game 3 I made a dumb mistake by not playing tokens and hoping to draw a land next turn for damnation. I had a bit of bad luck, but I definitely should have chumped while I could.
IN: Damnation, Wrath, 1 Pithing, 1 Surgical
OUT: Lilis, Legions Landing
After the match, i should have brought a disenchant or 2 instead of the needle and/or the surgical because of Worship.
Not really happy about the results. But I feel deaths shadow is definitely one of our best matchups, hands down. Was just bad luck. CoCo decks are sometimes too explosive for us if we dont stop them quickly. Leasons learnt, and keep going
Played a Modern FNM on Friday for probably the first time in 4-5 months (I felt in round 3 with a "Have you even played before?" moment told below). Used a version based pretty heavily off diateone's list. Had about 18 people playing.
Round 1: 2-1 against Kiln Fiend Bloo deck.
Game 1 I lost on turn 3 on the play to 26 damage to the face.
Games 2 and 3 I had the removal and then the creatures to turn it tables.
In: 3x Damping Sphere
Out: 3x Bitterblossom
1-0
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
1-1
Round 3: 2-1 against a Balance combo deck
Game 1 he drew 2 balance and I was able to play around the rest and keep enough pressure on to get it.
Game 2 I sided out 4 cards, shuffled up, drew my hand, and realized that I had accidentally shuffled my entire sideboard into my deck instead of setting the other ones to the side... I drew 3 useless cards that game and not surprising lost.
Game 3 I just stayed ahead of him again.
Hand control and Planeswalkers were great here.
In: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Disenchant
Out: 3x Fatal Push, 1x Collective Brutality
2-1
Round 4: 2-1 against Storm.
Game 1 I never drew instant speed removal and got stormed.
Games 2-3 I dropped Damping Sphere before he could find his way, and had both instant speed removal (used some on his creatures also) and a surgical ready both times.
The sideboard is so good here.
In: 3x Damping Sphere, 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 3x Bitterblossom, 2x Start // finish, 2x Legion's Landing
3-1
Round 5: 1-1-1 against R/G Ponza
Matched up with one of my friends I came with. If we split we would both make top 8, so we did and just played for fun, and he did me in a couple messing around games.
3-1-1
Top8 Round 1: 2-0 against R/G Ponza
Got my friend again immediately in top8.
Both games I drew the hand control and removal when I needed it, kept up the pressure, and had enough lands. Game 2 I won through an Anger of the Gods killing like 8 spirit tokens. :0
4-1-1
Top8 Round 2: 2-1 against B/R Burn
The rematch of the one round I lost.
Game 1 he flooded out.
Game 2 he hit turn 3 blood moon and I didn't see fetch or basic all game.
Game 3 I had enough life gain and he had just too many lands. The strong play here was when I had a 1/1 lifelink vampire token out and swinging and he played skullcrack to stop the life gain and in response I played my Blessed Alliance to get that 4 life.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
5-1-1
Top8 Round 3: 1-1-1 against Bogles
Technically he got the wins, but we just split the prize pool as it was about 2am and we were ready to leave and I didn't care about the wins (I think he wanted the points.). Just as well, as I think he would have rolled me. 4x mainboard leyline of sanctity, ouch.
5-2-1
It was a ton of fun and felt good. Cleaning up my own mistakes will definitely make it work better but still worked well.
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
That's quite a reckless burn list. I can tell you I'd never run Blood moon or claim // fame as it's heavily discouraged in a "true" burn list. what you describe sounds a lot more like a rakdos aggro, which is kinda like burn with a bigger focus on creatures. Nitpicking aside, nice job on th rematch
also, most bogles mainboard the leyline now. They know discard and sacrifice are their big weakness. The last thing they want is getting their bogle thoughseized. I usually deal with them with Runed halo.
Mono-R burn lists often play Blood Moon in the side-board and sometimes main-deck; I mean, why not?
Most Modern burn decks are not mono-R; Most are at least Boros now and frequently Naya, the one described sounded fairly typical of an old-school list. BR was formerly popular as was Dega (before Mardu was a thing) and those cards were popular then. Many lists now have a least a G splash for Atarka's Command and/or Destructive Revelry; the latter side-board. Such decks usually cannot use Blood Moon as there is too much to side-out and such decks are often themselves vulnerable to Blood Moon or land destruction effects as they rarely run basic lands other than Mountains. I beat a Boros burn deck with my Ghost Quarter Rock in part by keeping him off W and therefore unable to cast Boros Charm and Lightning Helix.
I didn't use Liliana enough to get much of a feel for her. I have generally run the 2/2 Sorin/Gideon split and liked that, but this was the first time running Liliana.
No Spectrals was interesting but not a big issue on token generating, generally. I was actually happy not to have them that day as I faced Blood Moon or Land Destruction in 4 out of 6 real matches, and it would have been hard to cast it.
Didn't really see much of Start // Finish either, so not much to write home about. I do love the instant speed of it though against decks that I may need to remove a creature on their turn but also need to create a board presence if I don't.
The Bitterblossoms seemed fine. I saw them a decent bit still, but I faced enough aggro/combo decks that they didn't matter much in most matches and I sided them out a decent bit. If it was a heavy control/midrange meta, I would probably go up to 4.
I didn't blow up any lands all night with my lands as none of the decks I played against really cared about it, except Ponza and we didn't draw destruction lands and mana enchantments at the same time. I dodged the Tron player and saw no one with man lands. They were more useful as mana for me and the colorless didn't seem to hurt (and they made just as good mountains as any of my other non basics. ) So, they seemed fine. Better to have and not need, I suppose.
The sideboard seemed solid for what I faced. My friends had told me beforehand that there was all kinds of things running around at the LGS but a lot of aggro and combo stuff, so I adjusted accordingly. I dropped 3x stony silence for the 3x damping sphere (and it paid off) and I think I switched out 2x Pithing needle for the 2x blessed alliance (which seemed a solid choice for the night). I felt like I usually had the cards I needed in the sideboard, it was just a matter of drawing them, like usual. As MisterMuffin21 mentioned above, it certainly wouldn't hurt to bring back a runed halo or 2 with some of those decks running around.
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
That's quite a reckless burn list. I can tell you I'd never run Blood moon or claim // fame as it's heavily discouraged in a "true" burn list. what you describe sounds a lot more like a rakdos aggro, which is kinda like burn with a bigger focus on creatures. Nitpicking aside, nice job on th rematch
also, most bogles mainboard the leyline now. They know discard and sacrifice are their big weakness. The last thing they want is getting their bogle thoughseized. I usually deal with them with Runed halo.
Yeah, it could have been closer to a Rakdos aggro, but other than the mentioned cards, everything else seemed normal stock burn. I am glad teh luck was on my side in the rematch (at least in 1 extra game).
That would be a perfect answer to them for sure. I may see about fitting that in the side again. All I would have had against them this time would have been the 2 board wipes (with wrath being weak against totem armor), the disenchants, and the blessed alliances (Hoping they didn't draw a leyline.). I am rather glad that I didn't have to actually play him for prizes. I had also had an anguished unmaking in the side for a while that I had taken out but may bring back with all of the enchantment and artifacts running around.
Heeeeyyy!!! nice to see such a good result with a so similar list. I truly believe is the best implementation of tokens so far. Of course, I might be biased for how cool I consider myself
Jokes apart, congrats for the final! As a brief comment, and although it turned out super fine for you, I believe that, considering the amoount of UW control decks around, pithing is a must have in the SB. If your local meta doesnt match that, then I would be okay removing it. Also Engineered explosives sees play in many different decks. I thing I will be packing a couple in my SB for Stockholm.
Hello People
I've been playing a bit with a more aggressive RTA version of the deck.
Went 3-1 with one bye at FNM. Lost to Bant spirits - seems like an aweful matchup, won against Humans and Mardu Pyromancer.
The deck always ends up grinding it out. The aggressive slant of the deck doesn't seem to bring much of a payoff really.
So i thought about how to make a grindy RTA version; one reason is so i dont have to buy bitterblossom or Liliana, the other is to see if it works.
I've come up with this list.
My experience with the former RTA version was:
Flipping LL is nice if you have something to spend the mana on.
Ramping with PtE is a very real thing.
Winbrisk needs some big payoffs.
There's a lot of creature heavy decks running around, so instant blockers - RTA - are nice and so are maindeck sweepers - Settle.
I would love som feedback, so please comment
Hey, there!
I think the general consensus has been that we usually want to avoid having more than 2-3 lands that unconditionally enter the battlefield tapped and then the next part of that is that Windbrisk Heights has generally been considered not worth it, these days. That may have been a reason for adding the Ethspeths but a 6 drop can be a hard pill to drop in modern if you don't have real ramp (LL is not always there). Now, you may have already practiced a ton with it and love it, but I would suggest dropping the elspeths as too expensive in most capacities. If you want the walkers I would up the 4 drops, maybe a Sorin, lord of innistrad.
Then, without Eslpeth, you can go down to 24 lands very safely and drop the 2x Windbrisk Heights and throw in another fetch.
You probably want to get up to the 4th Intangible Virtue, as it is one of the strongest cards in our deck.
Also, without the double black count of liliana or the value of bitterblossom, if you want to be grindier, good ol' spectral procession is one of the best value-per-cost token producers we can run.
So, if I gave you suggestions for direct changes it would be:
- 2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
- 2x Windbrisk Heights
+ 1x Windswept Heath
+ 1x Intangible Virtue
+ 2x Spectral Procession
You may feel that losing Elspeth and Heights makes you weaker in the late game, but there are many times where in the mid to late game we still don't have 6 mana and just need something usable or an untapped land. I think you can still be grindy enough while also being more consistent.
According to metashares Valakut is far less common than you think: http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO & https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper
I actually like to deal with actual numbers over my subjective experiences.
I never said the card was bad. I literally listed all the reasons for why you could consider playing the card. What I did say was you shouldn't make a crappy Mardu build just to play the thing and instead play 1 Sacred Foundry if Valakut bothers you that much. Meanwhile decent sideboard options for Tron already exist. Pithing Needle is highly underrated for this matchup and useful for things like KCI, manlands, Lantern Control, etc.
Good finishes are influenced by (a) how many people play the deck and (b) how many people that play the deck choose not to play garbage lists like you. Unfortunately both those factors don't look so great for this deck. People buy this deck because it's more budget friendly, hence the lower skill floor of the players. It's the same reason the old Amulet Bloom deck never gained popularity despite being objectively the best deck in the format by win %.
It doesn't mean you're winning, it just means that extra land isn't going to be doing anything 90% of the time because by then you already have 3-4 lands in play. The more serious reason to not run the card is because you're playing a 1/1 lifelink with no evasion for one mana. That's a terrible conversion rate. Instead of relying on a 1/1 lifelink card to shore up your aggro match, why don't you actually 'get gud' and play some more removals and discard spells that will save your more life in the long run? Am I being too logical here?
Uh you do realize Mardu Pyromancer has terrible conversation rates? Just to give an example 0/6 Mardu players made Pro Tour top 35 in a creature heavy meta. Yeah BW Tokens is a better deck than this garbage. Your control elements - a.k.a discards and removals - are nearly as good; actually it's better because their mana base can't handle path to exile which is the only way to deal with Gurmag Angler and Hollow Ones. This deck is geared to beat only one deck and that's Humans. Meanwhile BW Tokens has by far the better control, combo, and even most creature matchups. You think BW Tokens has a bad matchup against Valakut and Tron? Try playing Mardu Pyromancer, which can barely get cards into the graveyard. BW Tokens is better against removals, beats creature decks with evasion, and applies faster pressure most of the time.
Tokens is hell of a lot better than people think it is with a proper build and the right pilot. You complain about "not the right meta" based on what exactly? The meta is way better now than it was a 1-2 years ago when I moved on to Legacy. Combo decks are at an all time low and most of the aggro decks aside from Humans is a decent matchup like Shadows, Affinity, and even Burn. Ux Control is like 50/50 depending on how you build the deck. Tron is the one popular deck that's heavily favored against Tokens but now you have far superior answers to Tron than you did a year ago.
Warning issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Oh, a netdecker. Look, there's a place called r/spikes where you don't have to deal with this pesky thing called an imagination.
Its a classic excuse, "the deck isn't performing because nobody plays it". That's like saying the Chery QQ is actually an amazing car, it just hasn't won any rallies or races because nobody brings it there. BW tokens isn't brought to the races because people know better. Maybe I'm being too harsh on you, because you DID move on to another format a year ago, right?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Now to the matter. I am very much in line with what emu said. This deck is much better than the tier says, mainly because of the number of players in competitive events. Last two "big" events I have been to were a PPTQ where I went 6th out of 40+ people (7-2-1 I believe), and a MKM modern event where I went 6-4 but with some punting on my side, to be honest. In september I will be taking this deck to GP Stockholm, where OBVIOUSLY I plan to win hehe. I will be making some meta analysis and SB tech in the upcoming weeks, so guys be ready to contribute.
The only thing I disagree with is Legion's Landing. I have tried it before and the card feels really powerful. We dont usually play it turn 1, because most of the people running it run 1 or 2 max. It is however, a free creature if you already have 3 creatures (which doesnt mean you are already winning) and the late game is very powerful. Agree that discard is very important, but give it a try if you havent yet. I am currently playing 2 of them. Along with 6 discard spells, 2 CB, 2 Lilianas, I dont feel I need more disruption than that.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
- With only 2 PW main, Windbrisk Heights are definitely not worth it. Replace for the 4th Courtyard.
- DiStone is really not good enough. If you are targeting tokens, you already have ZP in the main, which should get the job done 99% of the times (most tokens are 1/1s). I would remove these two for sure.
- 3 Zealous seem a bit too much. Considering that you run 15 token generators (which is slightly over the average) I could see playing 3. But I believe 2 is the right number.
- This leaves us 3 slots, that should be filled with 2 Fatal Push and probably another walker. I think running 3 Sorins main is the right call. At least, that is what I intend to do for GP Stockholm too. I have been playing around with SLoI, but I am going back to SSV for the GP. No jokes there.
- If you, for example, cant get 2 FP, maybe you could fit a copy of Start/Finish there. Adds more tokens and a removal spell. The card is better in midrange versions, but if you are adding it on top, and not replacing any of the key token generators, it can only do good.
- I dont really like adding HotPure, because 5 anthems might be dead cards sometimes and you dont want to lose momentum on the board. Specially with ZP. If you time is correctly, you will probably be able to blow your opponent in 1 attack.
About the SB:
We are talking GP, so you want to have things clear.
2x Auriok Champion: I play it myself, but I am very likely going to replace it with somthing. Even against burn is sometimes too slow, and the only other good application is DeathShadow decks, but we are already favoured there. In my case, I am considering timely reinforcements and Runed halo for that spot (maybe blessed alliance).
1x Basilisk Collar: I never got to really test this card because I didnt really had many chances. It can be great, and it is something I am definitely considering.
2x Damping Sphere: I replaced my 3 Stony with them. I see you run 2/1, and that is okay too. I just like consistency.
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: Great card but in your deck, this is an easy maindeck card. Maybe the third Sorin that I mentioned, or one of the FP. This guy is great.
1x Pithing Needle: Cheap narrow answer for everything. In a GP? I think it is a must have. 2 wont hurt.
2x Rest in Peace: great. Considering you pack 4 GQ, I would try to fit some surgical extractions or extirpates for tron lands. they are also good against combo decks (combined with discard) and can be played t1. Sometimes t2 is too late to drop RiP (for example, on the draw).
1x Stony Silence
2x Sundering Growth: disenchant here. Not worth the risk
2x Wrath of God: If you run 15+ tokens, I dont think this card is as bad you say. You just have to play it when the outcome is favourable for you. Just play it smart, and you will be able to rebuild much faster than you opponent, given that you buffered some tokens in hand (or Lingering Souls in GY). If you have a damnation, run 1 and 1, because humans is a thing and meddling mage is a pain in the ass. If you really dont like it, Ghostly Prison works great too.
If I were you I would go:
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
5x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Windswept Heath
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Thoughtseize
4x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Fatal Push
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Damping Sphere
1x Stony Silence
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Disenchant
2x Wrath of God
Dont take it as the holy grial. As I said, just my 2 cents.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Gather the Townsfolk saw some play a few years ago. Melissa De Tora sometimes played it in her Pro-Tour decks. That was a bunch of cards ago; I haven't seen it in the discussion for a good while. Still, dropping five tokens has to be a fells-good moment.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
- Timely Reinforcements: Great card, but itbeing a sorcery and the lack of versatility makes not really appealing. I had this card in my deck some time ago, but burn players see it coming from far away. They just need to leave up their skullcrack mana and EOT boros charm you.
- Leyline of Sanctity: Big tournaments rely on consistency, and this card is everything but that. Helps in a lot of matchups, but the math of running 2 copies in the SB is very bad. Even going up to 4 would not be too good, and would take slots from SB.
Blessed Alliance is just more versatile and easy to play. It also works against Eldrazis, bogles... So I think i am settled now.
I also included the third Sorin, Solemn Visitor over SorinLoI, and the deck felt much better yesterday in the testing. Played against burn, goblins, and infect. Burn is really 50/50, although 2 Legions landing help. Goblins is 60-40, and Infect is like 90-10.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Otherwise if 2 cmc cards are in want, I'd look toward additional anthem effects like Honor of the Pure, Zealous Persecution is very sweet against mardu pyro and affinity.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
No one would want four Gather the Townsfolk. Melissa played two back in the day. There are probably better options today, but I'm not sure I would want Honor of the Pure over Townsfolk. Those are the two things that come to mind for two-drops to play on-curve but I've never played either personally in BW tokens. Zealous Persecution is a good two-drop but it isn't an on-the-curve card so it doesn't help with the curve-out plan.
While I don't plan to try it myself, a copy or two of Townsfolk is far from the worst idea I've heard here. Four copies would be; however, a really really bad idea.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Key cards:
t1 discard is extremely powerful. I win most of the times I am able to cut them off from their explosive starts.
removal: obviously
Vault of the archangel creates super favourable trades
Sorin performs also great. Sometimes, if the table is stable enough, we dont want to immediately attack (unless we have virtue), but to keep Sorin alive and emblem him.
Bitterblossom: attacking with a 7/7 champion of the parish? I would rather eat 1 life from BB, thanks. IMPRESSIVE CARD THIS BB
Opinions? How do you guys approach the MU? Thanks for the feedback!!
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
2-1 against BW superfriends
A more PW-based version of our deck. I grindy games, we are the best.
IN: Pithing needle
OUT: Lilianas
2-1 against Jund
No sideboard. Game 2, he could take over after I mulliganed and he stuck a Lili, the last hope. Otherwise easy.
1-2 against 4C shadow
This is usually a very good matchup. But the draws were just not great. I drew many lands and 1 token generator in one of the games... Crazy. I guess ***** happens sometimes.
IN: Blessed alliance, RiP
OUT: collective brutality, 1 legions landing
1-2 against knightfall creatures
deck featuring knight of the reliquary, Collected company and so on. Game one I resisted with BB but couldnt find a lifegain source to take over the game. Game two I made him discard very heavy and couldnt keep up. Game 3 I made a dumb mistake by not playing tokens and hoping to draw a land next turn for damnation. I had a bit of bad luck, but I definitely should have chumped while I could.
IN: Damnation, Wrath, 1 Pithing, 1 Surgical
OUT: Lilis, Legions Landing
After the match, i should have brought a disenchant or 2 instead of the needle and/or the surgical because of Worship.
Not really happy about the results. But I feel deaths shadow is definitely one of our best matchups, hands down. Was just bad luck. CoCo decks are sometimes too explosive for us if we dont stop them quickly. Leasons learnt, and keep going
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
2-1 against BW superfriends
A more PW-based version of our deck. I grindy games, we are the best.
IN: Pithing needle
OUT: Lilianas
2-1 against Jund
No sideboard. Game 2, he could take over after I mulliganed and he stuck a Lili, the last hope. Otherwise easy.
1-2 against 4C shadow
This is usually a very good matchup. But the draws were just not great. I drew many lands and 1 token generator in one of the games... Crazy. I guess ***** happens sometimes.
IN: Blessed alliance, RiP
OUT: collective brutality, 1 legions landing
1-2 against knightfall creatures
deck featuring knight of the reliquary, Collected company and so on. Game one I resisted with BB but couldnt find a lifegain source to take over the game. Game two I made him discard very heavy and couldnt keep up. Game 3 I made a dumb mistake by not playing tokens and hoping to draw a land next turn for damnation. I had a bit of bad luck, but I definitely should have chumped while I could.
IN: Damnation, Wrath, 1 Pithing, 1 Surgical
OUT: Lilis, Legions Landing
After the match, i should have brought a disenchant or 2 instead of the needle and/or the surgical because of Worship.
Not really happy about the results. But I feel deaths shadow is definitely one of our best matchups, hands down. Was just bad luck. CoCo decks are sometimes too explosive for us if we dont stop them quickly. Leasons learnt, and keep going
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I ran:
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Arid Mesa
1x Field of Ruin
Sorcery (12)
2x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instant (9)
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
2x Start // finish
Enchantment (9)
3x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Legion's Landing
2x Auriok Champion
2x Blessed Alliance
3x Damping Sphere
2x Disenchant
1x Slaughter the Strong
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Wrath of God
Round 1: 2-1 against Kiln Fiend Bloo deck.
Game 1 I lost on turn 3 on the play to 26 damage to the face.
Games 2 and 3 I had the removal and then the creatures to turn it tables.
In: 3x Damping Sphere
Out: 3x Bitterblossom
1-0
Round 2: 0-2 against B/R burn running vexing devil, bump in the night, and claim // fame
Game 1 came down to if he had Skullcrack in hand or not and he did.
Game 2 I dumbly played into Blood Moon and got to spend some turns looking at mountains.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
1-1
Round 3: 2-1 against a Balance combo deck
Game 1 he drew 2 balance and I was able to play around the rest and keep enough pressure on to get it.
Game 2 I sided out 4 cards, shuffled up, drew my hand, and realized that I had accidentally shuffled my entire sideboard into my deck instead of setting the other ones to the side... I drew 3 useless cards that game and not surprising lost.
Game 3 I just stayed ahead of him again.
Hand control and Planeswalkers were great here.
In: 2x Surgical Extraction, 2x Disenchant
Out: 3x Fatal Push, 1x Collective Brutality
2-1
Round 4: 2-1 against Storm.
Game 1 I never drew instant speed removal and got stormed.
Games 2-3 I dropped Damping Sphere before he could find his way, and had both instant speed removal (used some on his creatures also) and a surgical ready both times.
The sideboard is so good here.
In: 3x Damping Sphere, 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Surgical Extraction
Out: 3x Bitterblossom, 2x Start // finish, 2x Legion's Landing
3-1
Round 5: 1-1-1 against R/G Ponza
Matched up with one of my friends I came with. If we split we would both make top 8, so we did and just played for fun, and he did me in a couple messing around games.
3-1-1
Top8 Round 1: 2-0 against R/G Ponza
Got my friend again immediately in top8.
Both games I drew the hand control and removal when I needed it, kept up the pressure, and had enough lands. Game 2 I won through an Anger of the Gods killing like 8 spirit tokens. :0
4-1-1
Top8 Round 2: 2-1 against B/R Burn
The rematch of the one round I lost.
Game 1 he flooded out.
Game 2 he hit turn 3 blood moon and I didn't see fetch or basic all game.
Game 3 I had enough life gain and he had just too many lands. The strong play here was when I had a 1/1 lifelink vampire token out and swinging and he played skullcrack to stop the life gain and in response I played my Blessed Alliance to get that 4 life.
In: 2x Auriok Champion, 2x Blessed Alliance
Out: 2x Bitterblossom, 2x Thoughtseize
5-1-1
Top8 Round 3: 1-1-1 against Bogles
Technically he got the wins, but we just split the prize pool as it was about 2am and we were ready to leave and I didn't care about the wins (I think he wanted the points.). Just as well, as I think he would have rolled me.
5-2-1
It was a ton of fun and felt good. Cleaning up my own mistakes will definitely make it work better but still worked well.
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
also, most bogles mainboard the leyline now. They know discard and sacrifice are their big weakness. The last thing they want is getting their bogle thoughseized. I usually deal with them with Runed halo.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Most Modern burn decks are not mono-R; Most are at least Boros now and frequently Naya, the one described sounded fairly typical of an old-school list. BR was formerly popular as was Dega (before Mardu was a thing) and those cards were popular then. Many lists now have a least a G splash for Atarka's Command and/or Destructive Revelry; the latter side-board. Such decks usually cannot use Blood Moon as there is too much to side-out and such decks are often themselves vulnerable to Blood Moon or land destruction effects as they rarely run basic lands other than Mountains. I beat a Boros burn deck with my Ghost Quarter Rock in part by keeping him off W and therefore unable to cast Boros Charm and Lightning Helix.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I didn't use Liliana enough to get much of a feel for her. I have generally run the 2/2 Sorin/Gideon split and liked that, but this was the first time running Liliana.
No Spectrals was interesting but not a big issue on token generating, generally. I was actually happy not to have them that day as I faced Blood Moon or Land Destruction in 4 out of 6 real matches, and it would have been hard to cast it.
Didn't really see much of Start // Finish either, so not much to write home about. I do love the instant speed of it though against decks that I may need to remove a creature on their turn but also need to create a board presence if I don't.
The Bitterblossoms seemed fine. I saw them a decent bit still, but I faced enough aggro/combo decks that they didn't matter much in most matches and I sided them out a decent bit. If it was a heavy control/midrange meta, I would probably go up to 4.
I didn't blow up any lands all night with my lands as none of the decks I played against really cared about it, except Ponza and we didn't draw destruction lands and mana enchantments at the same time. I dodged the Tron player and saw no one with man lands. They were more useful as mana for me and the colorless didn't seem to hurt (and they made just as good mountains as any of my other non basics.
The sideboard seemed solid for what I faced. My friends had told me beforehand that there was all kinds of things running around at the LGS but a lot of aggro and combo stuff, so I adjusted accordingly. I dropped 3x stony silence for the 3x damping sphere (and it paid off) and I think I switched out 2x Pithing needle for the 2x blessed alliance (which seemed a solid choice for the night). I felt like I usually had the cards I needed in the sideboard, it was just a matter of drawing them, like usual. As MisterMuffin21 mentioned above, it certainly wouldn't hurt to bring back a runed halo or 2 with some of those decks running around.
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Yeah, it could have been closer to a Rakdos aggro, but other than the mentioned cards, everything else seemed normal stock burn. I am glad teh luck was on my side in the rematch (at least in 1 extra game).
That would be a perfect answer to them for sure. I may see about fitting that in the side again. All I would have had against them this time would have been the 2 board wipes (with wrath being weak against totem armor), the disenchants, and the blessed alliances (Hoping they didn't draw a leyline.). I am rather glad that I didn't have to actually play him for prizes.
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Jokes apart, congrats for the final! As a brief comment, and although it turned out super fine for you, I believe that, considering the amoount of UW control decks around, pithing is a must have in the SB. If your local meta doesnt match that, then I would be okay removing it. Also Engineered explosives sees play in many different decks. I thing I will be packing a couple in my SB for Stockholm.
EDIT: ah! and Walking ballistas!
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Hey, there!
I think the general consensus has been that we usually want to avoid having more than 2-3 lands that unconditionally enter the battlefield tapped and then the next part of that is that Windbrisk Heights has generally been considered not worth it, these days. That may have been a reason for adding the Ethspeths but a 6 drop can be a hard pill to drop in modern if you don't have real ramp (LL is not always there). Now, you may have already practiced a ton with it and love it, but I would suggest dropping the elspeths as too expensive in most capacities. If you want the walkers I would up the 4 drops, maybe a Sorin, lord of innistrad.
Then, without Eslpeth, you can go down to 24 lands very safely and drop the 2x Windbrisk Heights and throw in another fetch.
You probably want to get up to the 4th Intangible Virtue, as it is one of the strongest cards in our deck.
Also, without the double black count of liliana or the value of bitterblossom, if you want to be grindier, good ol' spectral procession is one of the best value-per-cost token producers we can run.
So, if I gave you suggestions for direct changes it would be:
- 2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
- 2x Windbrisk Heights
+ 1x Windswept Heath
+ 1x Intangible Virtue
+ 2x Spectral Procession
You may feel that losing Elspeth and Heights makes you weaker in the late game, but there are many times where in the mid to late game we still don't have 6 mana and just need something usable or an untapped land. I think you can still be grindy enough while also being more consistent.
Good luck!
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
3W, enchantment
Convoke
When Conclave Tribunal enters the battlefield, exile target nonland permanent until Conclave Tribunal leaves the battlefield.
This seems like a pretty good card on first glance. What's your opinion on it? Is the non-permanence of the removal too big of a downside?