MTG Salvation

I went to a local FNM yesterday and did 3-1 with this deck.

Won against Humans (thanks to Mana Tithe countering Vial turn 1 and Hour of Reckoning game 2)
Won against affinity (easy as it is supposed to be)
Forgot what was the third match, bu I won
Loss against Tron, even with Damping Sphere, he simply hard casted stone and cracked it for the win.

I feel the deck is solid, but Im going to do the following changes:

+1 Shambling Vent
-1 Raise the Alarm
Maybe 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar on SB

Hello all! A long time lurker here. I need help in upgrading my B/W Tokens deck, which hasn't changed since Amonkhet release.


I know that 4 x Marsh Flats and 4 x Bitterblossom are pretty much given, but they are outside my budget currently. Any upgrades that aren't as pricey? Is Legion's Landing worth adding?

Quote from diateone »

I have to strongly disagree on that. Ever since I dropped my spectral for Start // Finish, the deck works better than ever. To me, they make more sense in aggressive builds.

Also, totally in line with this:

Quote from tarotplz »

With how your list is constructed, I think it makes much more sense why you would be branching out to other answers.

Tbh, I personally think that the speed of the aggressive version of this deck is a bit overrated. It's not that fast. Especially the big mana decks of Modern are used to go up against things like Affinity, Burn or Humans. These are all significantly faster than even the fastest of aggressive builds we can play. I used to think that we could beat things by racing them, but it never worked very well for me.

Being aggro is not the most efficient way to use our deck. I am not saying that it should not be played, but it is just not the best shape you can give to the deck. We are probably the grindiest deck ever, so just exploit this as an advantage and dont try to get away from it.

We are the grindiest deck ever that can't beat Tron or Valakut. This is why the deck isn't taken seriously in the competitive scene. I'm sorry to say it but that's the reality. When you call yourself grindy and your best topdeck is Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, its hard to lay claim to "grindiest". We're go-wide AGGRO, its just a matter how whether you want to start your clock earlier or later.

Okay... I'm a tiny bit confused here...

I do run one or two copy of Start // finish from time to time so I can definitely attest that it's not a bad card. However, it never struck me as a Spectral procession replacement/upgrade and I am not sold at all on this idea. Is it really that good in multiple (like more than 2)? Did I miss a top 8 list somewhere that ran it? I kind of want an explenation on this, because right now, I just don't see how we'd want Start // finish OVER Spectral procession... kinda feel like we'd want both at some number and not cut one altogether for the other?

Perhaps it is bias from personal experience, but a lot of time I tried running a list without spectral, it didn't go well.

Sorry if I sound dismissive, it is not my goal at all here. If it really is better I will test/run it. I just fail to see how it's better...

Quote from MisterMuffin21 »

Okay... I'm a tiny bit confused here...

I do run one or two copy of Start // finish from time to time so I can definitely attest that it's not a bad card. However, it never struck me as a Spectral procession replacement/upgrade and I am not sold at all on this idea. Is it really that good in multiple (like more than 2)? Did I miss a top 8 list somewhere that ran it? I kind of want an explenation on this, because right now, I just don't see how we'd want Start // finish OVER Spectral procession... kinda feel like we'd want both at some number and not cut one altogether for the other?

Perhaps it is bias from personal experience, but a lot of time I tried running a list without spectral, it didn't go well.

Sorry if I sound dismissive, it is not my goal at all here. If it really is better I will test/run it. I just fail to see how it's better...

Start finish replaced a 1-cmc removal slot for me. We have a LOT of one drops, so I was OK with increasing the CMC of a slot to 3.

@MarcWizard:

I dont think the "grindiness" of a deck is only to be measured by how good a topdeck can be. To me, that is the wrong criteria there. According to that, Tron is probably the grindiest deck ever. Grindy means that we accumulate value over time, using our resources as efficiently as possible and, eventually, leaving our opponent without answers (via disruption or recurrent cards like BB or lingering). At least, that is my view.

Topdecking is a situation in which we are usually stuck, against grindy decks too. There, our edge is not to hit a formidable PW that would tilt the game for us (although it could happen). Our strength is that practically ANY card we topdeck is going to create a slight value advantage to our side, because our cards are just more efficient that others. Our deck relies on CONSISTENCY, not on bombs.

Now, regarding the go wide aggro deck, we can mimic a deck like that, with the aggro shell. I totally agree. I just say that we are not the deck that takes the most profit out of this strategy (see elves, goblins, affinity...).

I might be totally wrong on my idea of the philosophy of our deck, but I honestly dont think so. What do other people think?

Regarding SP: I believe it fits more into the aggressive shells for our deck. Since I play 3 of them in my control shell, I cant imagine myself going below 2 copies main. The card has made my deck so much better. There has been some justification in this forum and it is summed up in the description of my deck on my signature so I wont go over it again. In the end, it all reduces to trying the card out and evaluate which play-style you are looking for.

Quote from diateone »

@MarcWizard:

I dont think the "grindiness" of a deck is only to be measured by how good a topdeck can be. To me, that is the wrong criteria there. According to that, Tron is probably the grindiest deck ever. Grindy means that we accumulate value over time, using our resources as efficiently as possible and, eventually, leaving our opponent without answers (via disruption or recurrent cards like BB or lingering). At least, that is my view.

Topdecking is a situation in which we are usually stuck, against grindy decks too. There, our edge is not to hit a formidable PW that would tilt the game for us (although it could happen). Our strength is that practically ANY card we topdeck is going to create a slight value advantage to our side, because our cards are just more efficient that others. Our deck relies on CONSISTENCY, not on bombs.

Now, regarding the go wide aggro deck, we can mimic a deck like that, with the aggro shell. I totally agree. I just say that we are not the deck that takes the most profit out of this strategy (see elves, goblins, affinity...).

I might be totally wrong on my idea of the philosophy of our deck, but I honestly dont think so. What do other people think?

My perspective is that if we are to say we're out to grind, we have to win the long game. Its only logical. Except, Tron and Valakut have a better long game than ours. So like any competitive deck, we have to be able to shift gears if necessary, and change our position on the metagame clock. We've mostly accepted our position as a losing one against Tron and Valakut, but I'm exploring to see if I can shift that position from my current one, which leans closer to aggro than the traditional. (Let's not exaggerate though, RtA over bitterblossom and Legion's landing over thoughtseizes is not crazy different)

Against Tron and Valakut, we're the beatdown, without a doubt. There is no controlling Tron/Valakut and I think that much we can agree on that. Disrupt, kill ASAP is the way to win against these guys. The direction I've taken is to lean toward the "kill ASAP" direction.

I cant buy that tron and valakut are grindy decks. They have a very powerful lategame, but they require a great deal of setup for the first 3-4 turns. Disrupt the ramping and they will do nothing for the next 5 turns (as it happens with combo decks, e.g., remove the only creature in a storm hand and they will need to wait until they find one to reliably go off).

Yeah, assuming they have tron or they have ramped up to 6 lands in t3, they are very powerful late-game decks, but that doesnt make them grindy at all IMO. They way in which big mana decks win is not topdecking and Ugin, is creating a scenario where they can play this Ugin, 4 turns before they are supposed to. No other deck plays Karn turn 7, because it is not that strong that late in the game. Dont mix these two concepts. We have to analyse things more carefully.

I agree with tarotplz saying that the disruption you pack will get you further than the extra aggressiveness. You could also disrupt and control until you have 6 mana and go EOT 2x Start, untap, double intangible for 12 damage hehe. The only way I have totally wrecked a tron player was GQ+surgical. They have never scooped to spectral+virtue

I'd like to take a moment to say I appreciate the discourse, guys.

Decklist will have to wait till i get home, I'll post it up, I think I had posted mine a while back after the Legion's Landing update, but its best I give you the latest.

I do in fact run 6 anthems, 4 Intangibles and 2 Honor of the pure. I also have an "anthem" land in the form of that white desert from HOU whose name I cannot recall at the moment.

Yes, the damping spheres are in the side, until which time I really decide to splash red for Alpine Moon, or not, depending on our discussion - I'm taking your comments and input seriously.

Regarding Grind VS Long game. I've found that being "grindy" isn't a great selling point if one can't beat Tron at all, or survive the onslaught from linear aggro. I guess you're right to say that we're technically grindy, but I don't find that to be a reason not to adopt the ability to race. After all, dropping push for bolt isn't that significant loss in terms of control, but we do take more damage from lands.

To put it another way - there have been players who've asked about the possibility of blood moon in this deck - and we all know just how bad it would be. I made a UR Storm joke in response to one of these. Blood Moon isn't even that fast; it disrupts our own mana and makes spectral near impossible to cast. So when Alpine Moon was printed it solved both of these issues while having nearly the same effect; not exactly, since they can tap the named land for green as mentioned above and hit your Moon with enchantment hate.

So anyway. will post Decklist later.

Yes, it is being a interesting discussion

But the thing is: we can beat tron! I have won 4 out my 6-7 matches against them since I included Lili + 3GQ a removed spectral. I also added the third thoughtseize for the 4th IoK, but that was a bit later. I dont face the matchup so sadly or hesitating anymore. I actually kinda wanna play against them, because man it feels nice to win.

As I said some post ago (when discussion alpine Moon), valakut still remains to be a bit worse because all the sweepers, but has also dramatically improved for me.

On a different line: I think I am going to try the 2nd Legion's landing over the third S//F. The card has been great, and burn is still very random for me.

Curious; why GQ over FoR? Doesn't the mana set back push you back as much as them?

Burn is positive MU for me, but I suppose that's not surprising since my thoughtseizes are instead lifelink vampire tokens. Landing into Anthem is quite bad for them. wow you run 3 S//F. I went from 1 to 2, then back to 1 again. Found that I wanted tokens more than that extra removal.

Yes, I am going to go with that. We will see how it works, but I think it is very reasonable.

GQ fits better in decks with sorcery-speed spells, FoR does in decks that use to leave up mana. That is the short (but accurate) answer.

Field of Ruin can't do anything is most decks until turn-three. That could be just after your Tron opponent dropped Karn.

*GASP*

I have a colorless land in my 60! Westvale Abbey

This must have been something I was testing just before I started playing Hollow One. (a very addictive deck, lots of laughter every FNM since I started playing it. Also some salty tears)

Anyway, the deck's current iteration is like this:



I think the list above kinda explains a lot about why I'm attracted to Moon, eh. Also, I thought I'd taken out that Westvale Abbey, I don't remember what its supposed to be. dang, I have not touched this deck in too many weeks. So anyway. Sideboard currently looks like this:



Nothing too creative there. Some choices are influenced in part by the starting 60 - you don't see surgicals because I'm not that high on discard, so stuff like Pithing Needles and Stain the Mind are instead used to catch combo. Apart from that, the usual enchantment hate, anti affinity. I have bogles in my meta, hence the emphasis on that and the Blessed Alliance.

So, since I've typed this much may as well go the full 9 yards, and lay out what I think my projected Alpine Moon sporting mardu token deck would look like. Rules of the deck:

1. I won't put in pyromancer and become some weird iteration of it. We will still strive to blank spot removal.
2. The deck will retain its grind elements and not be cute with lootings (see point 1)
3. This first iteration will try to keep the elements of the deck in roughly the same proportions to not rock the boat too much.
4. That being said, I will lean HARD into red this first round, and push to the limits of what the color can provide, so we can shave off from there.



Right, so, let's talk about the red cards - wait, goblin grenade? I think I need some sleep.

Quote from MarcWizard »

Start finish replaced a 1-cmc removal slot for me. We have a LOT of one drops, so I was OK with increasing the CMC of a slot to 3.

I can get behind that line of thought.

Quote from tarotplz »

I kind of just tried replacing all the Spectral Processions with Start // Finish some day, after seeing a few people here that run Liliana of the Veil do it.

I thought that I would be back to SP pretty soon, but tbh the deck just runs much much smoother. SP tended to sit in my hand uncastable, because I got stuck on 2 colored lands and a Ghost Quarter at times. I didn't think much of it, but having a guarantee of that not happening is pretty damn great.

So for me it's a consistency thing. The deck is slow enough to where I don't think the extra speed from SP matters much. What matters imo is being able to cast my token producers easier.

Eeh... I have a harder time getting behind this, but now I know the reasoning. I don't think casting spectral for 4 mana is the end of the world, and even with 3 nonwhite mana source I rarely encounter problems to cast it turn 3. and while the speed of Spectral is not always relevant, it's still a good thing to be able to swing 6 to 9 life by turn 4. Spectral is our only way to do that WITH evasive bodies and only on one card. It also cannot be discarded by Inquisition of kozilek and that's pretty relevant as that's usually the hand-hate that's run as a playset.

Also, having tried Liliana of the veil at two for the longest time and starting seeing better result after dropping her, I might have developed a bias against her. I'm on the team that think lili has no place in BW token. Conflict with most of our good token producer and only really shine if you want to discard stuff. She was fantastic in my older meta that was more control oriented, but now I only run her when I want to run my cute/janky cheat-emrakul-into-play build. Meta is too aggro/combo right now for me at least.

Still, less color restriction is always nice, and I agree that having a second mode to spend mana on is great, hence why I run one or two on occasion. I'm just not sold on it replacing Spectral.

Quote from pzbw7z »

Field of Ruin can't do anything is most decks until turn-three. That could be just after your Tron opponent dropped Karn.

This is exactly why I think Ghost quarter is better than Field of ruin for tron.

Quote from tarotplz »

Thank you for posting your list.

There are some things I disagree with in your original list, but I won't get into that in too much deatil right now, as I think we want to discuss the red splash further (let me know if you still want to hear it though)

The red version is certainly interesting. A few things feel off though. First up, I think Raise the Alarm should still be in there, instant speed seems very good. I get that you want to make use of the Goblins and Goblin Grenade, but I'm afraid, at that point you're trying to be worse 8 Whack and worse B/W Tokens (aggressive version).
Additionally I think that splashing black just for Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Zealous Persecution is probably not worth it. Therefore maybe make the deck Boros colors entirely and find a replacement planeswalker for Sorin.

The main reason for the Black in B/W Tokens is the disruption after all. Without keeping that I think there is hardly any reason to keep the balck in at all.

Ultimately though, I can't see this deck being fast enough to not need the discard and additional removal, but I guess to really find this out somebody needs to do actual testing.

Well, I did say I would lean HARD into red. I might also have been a little bit crazy. I wanted to go extreme on the reach and the aggressiveness. You're right in saying that the deck still needs more disruption. While grenade sounds good on paper there will surely be times where there is no goblin to strap dynamite to.

If you're talking about RW tokens and a replacement walker, I've actually been playing RW tokens for real in paper. The deck is alright, does about 50-50 in wins. You can call it a pet brew.

It's been a year since I've posted here. People are still posting terrible decks it seems. The #1 mistake people make are evaluation of "win more" cards. It's the reason why most people thought Narset Transcendent was going to be a good card. Rather than picking cards that are situational, one should be picking cards that are flexible, high impact, and low risk.

1. There is no reason to splash red. Back before Fatal Push was printed, the deck desperately needed an additional early removal spell to handle aggro and did not give a free land. That was the reason for experimentation with red. Now it's no longer necessary.
2. I wouldn't run a full set of Fatal Push though. Two copies can be replaced by a Dismember and a Collective Brutality. Dismember handles the numerous big threats in the meta and Brutality gives the deck flexibility.
3. Trying to shore up matches against Valakut is an inevitably disappointing endeavor. It's honestly not common enough to prepare for. At least against Tron you have Pithing Needle and Damphing Sphere. Against Valakut you basically have nothing. Run some Lost Legacy if you're desperate. Alpine Moon if you go a red splash, which is highly not recommended for 99% of the meta. You certainly would run a Sacred Foundry instead of going full red if you did run this card.
4. There shouldn't be any discussion of adding creatures to the deck. It's been tried for many years now and the result has always been the same: don't turn on opponent's removals. Only exceptions have been cards like Auriok Champion, which is only decent in the Grixis matchup (unreliable for Burn). Just think about it logically. Pyromancer is a 2/1 for two mana that MIGHT generate tokens. You have to cast multiple spells just to generate a bunch of 1/1s with no evasion.

BW Tokens is a better deck than this. Mardu Pyromancer was never a good deck because it's even more passive than BW Tokens, heavily relying on creature matchups to be good. Sometimes bad decks do well in certain metas and Mardu Pyromancer is no exception. It's like the Legacy Death and Taxes of Modern.

5. It does depend on the meta but I find that Liliana of the Veil, with the proper manabase, is very reliable. In most matches she finds a way to be relevant as removal + discard is a desirable combination. I don't recommend running more than 2 because she's not an early game card like she is in Jund.
6. Jeff Hoogland tested a build with History of Benaria. It's a decent card under some circumstances. If you have a lot of control/ combo in the meta, this is a better card than Spectral Procession. It's not bad against aggro/ midrange either but Spectral is superior there. The card I can't agree with playing is Legion's Landing. This is a win-more-card. Not amazing in the early game or the late game. By the time you make it into a land, you don't need the extra mana and probably don't need that token generation either. More importantly, this card is competing for a very valuable 1-drop slot. You really want a 1/1 with lifelink over a discard or removal spell? I'll take my chances with the latter.

No offense, but has it also been a year since you played magic?

RE: Alpine Moon. Valakut isn't rare, unless maybe in just your local meta. If you go to anything with upwards of 20 players you expect to see farseek/search for tomorrow. It also hits tron in a way that doesn't interfere with our real action turns. So thats 2 bad MU covered by 1 card, which is a decent qualification for the board.

RE: Legion's Landing. Making Legion's Landing flip means you're winning? Let's be real, you'll attack with plenty of games with 3 tokens but it won't mean the game is won yet. The lifelink is relevant against opposing aggro, and frankly I'm more inclined to say that the incredible amount of disruption still hasn't allowed this deck any good finishes since, what, 2015? If there were a deck that fully utilized the ground gained with targeted discard, it would be Mardu pyromancer. Speaking of which-

RE: Mardu Pyromancer. As you have pointed out, whether a deck is good or not depends on the meta. Its good now. Is BW Tokens "better" than this? Hell no. How long has it been since a meta that favored this deck was present? I mean you can carry on waiting, while the rest of us post "terrible decks". Maybe another year?