What does the "Raise the alarm shell" look like? I'm giving this a shot, since it reminded me so much of my aristocrats back in Inistrad standard. Dumping cash into Bitterbloosom and LotV might be the end step, so I'm focusing more agro/mid-range for now. Also, because I'm cheap, just having fun with Tragic Slip over Path; yeah yeah, I know...I'll replace it eventually.
That is a very well thought-out analysis diateone. I have been evaluating the topic myself, and I have decided to start with this 15. The list is influenced to some extent by local meta considerations, but I suspect it will perform well in the overall competitive meta as well:
Looks pretty similar to mine, conceptually. Let us know how well Damping Sphere and Stony Silence go together. Also interesting that you dont run any disenchant (only 1 AU). Not afraid of bridge?
Well, if you dont mind me pitching in, I think runed halo is not so well positioned now. Same goes for zealous.
Additionally, running both stony and sphere is not exactly what I like. This is a very personal perspective, but I prefer to have multiples of a single card aimed at some matchups than SB composed of 1-ofs mainly. Both approaches are perfectly legit, but, if I were you, I would run stony and sphere together since it offers some redundancy. I believe sphere + pithing is a much better combination, covering a wider spectrum.
Dont know about your meta, but without changing the overall idea of your SB, I would go:
I added 1 surgical effect because it feels really low on GY answers.
Maybe you're right, i feel like halo has been a bit underwhelming for me. It's still a catch-all card, but i guess i already have answers for things other than valakut and reality smasher. The rule change also sucks, since valakut can now target all the PW on board.
However, it's still not enough for me to completely ditch halo. I felt like i still need a catch-all card that i can put in for matches.
I would still try your SB configuration when there is another modern tourney later. For now, focusing on standard
The shell is the same: sub raise the alarm for bitter blossom. Use Honor of the Pure instead of the token pump. You don't necessarily need Bitterblossom and there are good arguments against it. Instant speed on your opponent's turn is nothing to sneeze at. Arguably midnight haunting is better than spectral procession for that reason.
Liliana of the Veil is also not a must. There are plenty of other control cards in white that accomplish the same end as her.
What is necessary are the stock token producers, pump spells, life gain, and discard. Fatal push and path to exile are essentials also.
Really, all the deck is is an late game aggro deck that has you playing control the first few turns. You discard and kill their stuff and then get some tokens out and pump them. I know its in midrange, but having played it for a long time, it is different from Jund. If it is close to anything I would say it is Grixis Death's Shadow.
Persecution works well against Jund or affinity. If your meta doesn't have either one, it isn't worth it.
In a meta with either, it is, at worst, a board wipe for 2 mana or a combat trick. At its best, it finishes the game in one turn out of no where. I wouldn't run it unless I was running an aggressive shell though.
But, if you lost to Jund or Affinity, then I think you have other issues to look at.
Legion's Landing has been amazing. I haven't had a lot of experience yet against the people in my play group, so I'm mildly hesitant to take to one of the larger tourneys. The meta in Seoul is strange... Very tier 1, bleeding edge what is trendy at the GPs gets picked up almost immediately. Lots of Tron, Eldrazi, control. Myself, I've only played against Tron, combo and Eldrazi. Kambal in the side board helped with storm and Kiki.
Outside of the life link vampires, what other life gain is there? I'm using blessed alliance in the side. I'm hesitant to add Vault of the Archangel. I'll post my basic version later for feedback. Thank you for the insight!
Oh yeah, humans was fun to tear up multiple times. Zealous was definitely good for that match, but given your early comments, Honor is most likely the better option with my current base line configuration.
What does the "Raise the alarm shell" look like? I'm giving this a shot, since it reminded me so much of my aristocrats back in Inistrad standard. Dumping cash into Bitterbloosom and LotV might be the end step, so I'm focusing more agro/mid-range for now. Also, because I'm cheap, just having fun with Tragic Slip over Path; yeah yeah, I know...I'll replace it eventually.
What does the "Raise the alarm shell" look like? I'm giving this a shot, since it reminded me so much of my aristocrats back in Inistrad standard. Dumping cash into Bitterbloosom and LotV might be the end step, so I'm focusing more agro/mid-range for now. Also, because I'm cheap, just having fun with Tragic Slip over Path; yeah yeah, I know...I'll replace it eventually.
You go with 4 RtA and no Bitterblossoms.
22 lands, 3 legion’s Landing, 4 spectral, 2 Zealous Persecution and more Gideons than Sorins (2-1 split). 5 hand disruption, 6-7 removal. No tapped lands.
I’ll post a proper deck list later, on mobile atm.
Ok, then I wasnt far off in my guess then! I'm currently in two Legion's... Given that it's won me games, perhaps 3 is the proper number.
That is a very well thought-out analysis diateone. I have been evaluating the topic myself, and I have decided to start with this 15. The list is influenced to some extent by local meta considerations, but I suspect it will perform well in the overall competitive meta as well:
Slaughter the Strong just replaces Wrath or Damnation as a one sided wipe then?
That is the intended use, but it is not always a complete wipe of the opponent's board, and played as a late game topdeck, it can take some of our tokens with it when it resolves. It occupies the same sideboard slots as traditional wraths and cards like Flaying Tendrils, but there are trade-offs compared to those. It is a very strong card against a variety of decks from Bogles to tribal aggro (Merfolk, Humans, etc.) to midrange (GBx decks and Shadow decks) to Eldrazi Tron. It's not going to save you from Elves though, and it's not especially good against Mardu Pyro. Pros and Cons.
Spirit Loop turns on removal (if they hit the token before it resolves it's gone). It also only gains life and nothing else, which is pretty bad for us. All the other lifegain cards I've mentioned also have other functions. Basilisk Collar is actually being used as a 1-of in the sideboard of some people, I forgot about that. Mostly against decks like Eldrazi, I don't know from the back of my head what other decks they use it for.
The reason that these cards aren't used a lot is because making our opponent's removal bad is one of our strongest parts of the deck, and if we play these cards it turns it back on. This is also the reason why Tidehollow Sculler and Hero of Bladehold (And one of the reasons why Brimaz, King of Oreskos) aren't played: they turn on removal. Auriok Champion is an exception because of her protection, and can only be Path'd.
I only now see you mentioned swords, and I'd say they are too expensive and slow, and I wouldn't know what to cut for them. The 3-drop spot is always very tight with Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession.
MagicYio is right, the only equipment that i see fit in token is basilisk collar. against decks like eldrazi it acts as a removal.
Cards have tight slot in token, so usually you dont want a 3 mana do nothing or 4 mana do nothing. This is why bladehold is bad compared to other 4cost threats that we already have in form of sorin and gideon.
Ah, similar to Burn in that regard: creature removal gets blanked since all you want to do is hit early; late game their creatures chump. Not gonna lie, I dream of jamming 4 Rancor and smashing away, but that's a different deck. I think with my first step honing this into a dedicated agro. I've got excellent path to follow with this discussion while I acquire peices for the upgrades. You guys have obviously been answering these questions for awhile ;-)
Switching gears, this was an interesting deck from the weekly mtgo round up: https://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/modern/the-gunslingers/w-b-control/1319013
Heavy on walkers, and main deck cards that are normally seen in the side, to really control creatures as a result. I'm really starting to see the different variations based on strategy and accounting for different meta environments.
It seems it's okay to drop Spectral procession in this meta reading through the latest 10 pages or so, I've been running 3 but I will drop them and instead add extra; +1 Lili, +2 brutality
Also removed -1 zealous, -1 cast out, -1 Secure the wastes for 2 Legion's Landing and 2nd Start/Finish
I really liked to run Runed Halo naming Death shadow, valakut, primeval Titan, slippery boogle etc. Been a while since I played BW Tokens so can't say how relevant it is.
Is Lost legacy not necessary due to all hand disruptions? It can also help like runed halo but instead more proactively but does nothing when a creature is on the field already
People nowadays seems to be playing boardwipes, I've not been running any before but instead 1-2 zealous, I take it you run either those or boardwipes?
Ah, similar to Burn in that regard: creature removal gets blanked since all you want to do is hit early; late game their creatures chump. Not gonna lie, I dream of jamming 4 Rancor and smashing away, but that's a different deck. I think with my first step honing this into a dedicated agro. I've got excellent path to follow with this discussion while I acquire peices for the upgrades. You guys have obviously been answering these questions for awhile ;-)
Switching gears, this was an interesting deck from the weekly mtgo round up: https://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/modern/the-gunslingers/w-b-control/1319013
Heavy on walkers, and main deck cards that are normally seen in the side, to really control creatures as a result. I'm really starting to see the different variations based on strategy and accounting for different meta environments.
Yes, that is B/W Gideon. Not a fan tbh, too controlish for me. I still want to swing with my creature as early as possible while still able to disrupt.
Hey all, been playing magic for a while on and off and recently got back into it, and I'm someone who has continually come back to BW tokens over the years. Right now, I'm more into the game than I have been for a long while, and am brewing the best abzan tokens list I can. I think previously when I've seen green splashes talked about, the general consensus is its not worth it for the manabase, and that generally BW tokens can create the same value without needing the third color. I agree in some ways with this, but think that adding green can actually shift the deck upwards in consistent power, though the lows of the abzan version have potential to be lower than in BW tokens due to mana screw. Also I love green, so the bias/preference is there. Still, i'm trying to make a competitive deck here. After ~3 weeks testing on MTGO, some casual play and a few league runs, heres the list i currently have:
Like I said, a good dollop of testing has gone into this deck already. When you first see it, you may notice the lack of spectral procession. To put in bluntly, the card is simply too hard to play in three color, and as much as it felt un-intuitive to remove it, the deck has really done quite well without it. You may also notice the lack of a discard suite of any sort. Currently i only have 2 thoughtseize and 0 collective brutality, and in testing i found 2 thoughtseize + 4 inquisition to honestly really lack power. Against fast decks, paying the life to get turn 1 black and taking away a threat really generally amounts to little advantage. Especially with thoughtseize. So far, the removal suite has worked wonders, though I'm considering putting a discard suite in sideboard.
Heres some other cards i've tested that were subpar: Tasigur: Actually performed well, but felt like overkill. The effect was helpful and castable, and he provided a great quick body against midrange, but generally was never able to actually swing, and ultimately didn't feel deserving of a spot in the deck.
Heroic Intervention: I had high hopes for this card, and it honestly disappointed. Against control, it was usually just countered or dealt around handily, and pretty much every time i tried to use it, against sweepers, against unfavorable block setups, and even against targeted walker destruction, it got shut down by some other effect or play my opponent had. Keep in mind too that against player targeted burn, heroic intervention does nothing to stop the damage from being redirected to your walkers (learned that the hard way). I will say it's good against ponza, which this deck has (unsurprising) struggles with.
Crime // Punishment: had high hopes for this card, as it does a lot to destroy mana weenie dependent decks, is okay in token mirror, and does work against affinity. Also because it can singlehandedly ruin boggles. Ultimately it was a waste of a sideboard slot, too slow and conditional to be worthwhile.
As far as the green stuff that works, Voice, Nissa, Gavony Township have all been complete powerhouses, and are the root of what makes me think this deck has the potential to surpass plain BW tokens. Voice especially, which excels against aggro decks as well as counter heavy blue control, has such incredible, over the top value in this deck it'll blow your mind. Sideboard wise, choke has proven pretty good but maybe over specific matchup wise, and dromoka's command has also held insane value, winning games for me by stopping blood moons, preventing burn, preventing lightning storms (ad nauseum bewarE), and turning combat tides against zoo and humans. Huatli is a pet card for sure, and has pulled her weight barely, but frustratingly hasn't appeared at all in a lot of my games at all. I suspect she will eventually be cut for a Gideon once i've had my fill of her. At the very least, her ability to give a god hand is impressive. Turn 2 Voice Turn 3 Lingering Turn 4 Huatli give +3/+3 to a token while keeping blockers, as well as essentially guarantee a winning clock over the next two turns, is a situation that has happened only once for me, but it was beautiful. Horizon Canopy has provided quite a bit of value as well, and further builds on the decks more interactive nature.
Overall I'm very happy with the deck but am wondering what green splash cards I'm forgetting that could be worth testing. BW Tokens to me has always meant the perfect deck that plays like tempo-aggro against control and midrange but plays like midrange against aggro, and this deck is a great testament to that. Mostly the deck struggles with combo decks like ad nauseum and through the breach as well as Tron decks, but otherwise things generally feel very even. The list has absolutely overpowered humans, zoo, control shells, and surprisingly hollow one decks consistently. Burn decks feel more even than anything, it probably is still a losing matchup but feels much better to play against than in traditional BW. The interactivity of the deck feels generally way better than in the traditional BW shell, which I have a good amount of experience running. I'm still looking for answers to tron, unfortunately the mana base really can't afford any tec edges, ghost quarters, etc., which is why I was thinking of finding space for 4 thoughtseize and maybe 2 collective brutality in the sideboard. Also, I'm of course continually tweaking the mana base. Currently, the deck runs damned smoothly, though sometime you have to take a shock land in anticipation of a possible lili or nissa. Compared to where the deck started, a lot of the mana problems have actually been smoothed over. Let me know what you think! or don't, this is a long post on a generally not played variant of a lightly played deck.
Old news, I guess,but i fiddle around with a light G splash for Gavony Township and see an issue with this deck. As I understand it, for a 90% chance of a T3 Nissa Voice, you would want 19 G sources. I count 14 G sources, which is good for a splash, but Nissa Voice is not a splashable card.
Thanks again for the feedback everyone. Since I'm the "Burn Guy" in my local group, this has been a surprise hit. Against, most decks in my meta, this had been surprisingly strong, so I'm glad I was correct in reading the strengths and weaknesses. For kicks, I started reading the beginning of this forum, which started two years ago in January of 2016. It's been very interesting to see the evolution of options and opinions, as well as the subtle shifts that occurred with each expansion realease. I'm currently on page 25 lol.
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1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
2x Damping Sphere
1x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Slaughter the Strong
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Maybe you're right, i feel like halo has been a bit underwhelming for me. It's still a catch-all card, but i guess i already have answers for things other than valakut and reality smasher. The rule change also sucks, since valakut can now target all the PW on board.
However, it's still not enough for me to completely ditch halo. I felt like i still need a catch-all card that i can put in for matches.
I would still try your SB configuration when there is another modern tourney later. For now, focusing on standard
Liliana of the Veil is also not a must. There are plenty of other control cards in white that accomplish the same end as her.
What is necessary are the stock token producers, pump spells, life gain, and discard. Fatal push and path to exile are essentials also.
Really, all the deck is is an late game aggro deck that has you playing control the first few turns. You discard and kill their stuff and then get some tokens out and pump them. I know its in midrange, but having played it for a long time, it is different from Jund. If it is close to anything I would say it is Grixis Death's Shadow.
In a meta with either, it is, at worst, a board wipe for 2 mana or a combat trick. At its best, it finishes the game in one turn out of no where. I wouldn't run it unless I was running an aggressive shell though.
But, if you lost to Jund or Affinity, then I think you have other issues to look at.
Outside of the life link vampires, what other life gain is there? I'm using blessed alliance in the side. I'm hesitant to add Vault of the Archangel. I'll post my basic version later for feedback. Thank you for the insight!
Oh yeah, humans was fun to tear up multiple times. Zealous was definitely good for that match, but given your early comments, Honor is most likely the better option with my current base line configuration.
Ok, then I wasnt far off in my guess then! I'm currently in two Legion's... Given that it's won me games, perhaps 3 is the proper number.
Slaughter the Strong just replaces Wrath or Damnation as a one sided wipe then?
That is the intended use, but it is not always a complete wipe of the opponent's board, and played as a late game topdeck, it can take some of our tokens with it when it resolves. It occupies the same sideboard slots as traditional wraths and cards like Flaying Tendrils, but there are trade-offs compared to those. It is a very strong card against a variety of decks from Bogles to tribal aggro (Merfolk, Humans, etc.) to midrange (GBx decks and Shadow decks) to Eldrazi Tron. It's not going to save you from Elves though, and it's not especially good against Mardu Pyro. Pros and Cons.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Shambling Vent
Vault of the Archangel
Legion's Landing
Collective Brutality
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Auriok Champion
Blessed Alliance
Timely Reinforcements
With that being said, another question: what aren't equipment or resilient enchantments used? Things like swords, spirit loop, or basilisk collar?
Basilisk Collar is actually being used as a 1-of in the sideboard of some people, I forgot about that. Mostly against decks like Eldrazi, I don't know from the back of my head what other decks they use it for.
The reason that these cards aren't used a lot is because making our opponent's removal bad is one of our strongest parts of the deck, and if we play these cards it turns it back on. This is also the reason why Tidehollow Sculler and Hero of Bladehold (And one of the reasons why Brimaz, King of Oreskos) aren't played: they turn on removal. Auriok Champion is an exception because of her protection, and can only be Path'd.
I only now see you mentioned swords, and I'd say they are too expensive and slow, and I wouldn't know what to cut for them. The 3-drop spot is always very tight with Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession.
Cards have tight slot in token, so usually you dont want a 3 mana do nothing or 4 mana do nothing. This is why bladehold is bad compared to other 4cost threats that we already have in form of sorin and gideon.
Switching gears, this was an interesting deck from the weekly mtgo round up: https://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/modern/the-gunslingers/w-b-control/1319013
Heavy on walkers, and main deck cards that are normally seen in the side, to really control creatures as a result. I'm really starting to see the different variations based on strategy and accounting for different meta environments.
1 Field of Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
2 Shambling Vent
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Raise the Alarm
2 Start // Finish
4 Lingering Souls
2 Legion's Landing
3 Bitterblossom
It seems it's okay to drop Spectral procession in this meta reading through the latest 10 pages or so, I've been running 3 but I will drop them and instead add extra; +1 Lili, +2 brutality
Also removed -1 zealous, -1 cast out, -1 Secure the wastes for 2 Legion's Landing and 2nd Start/Finish
So I'm not sure how to configure my sideboard
What I will have is:
And these are what I'm considering:
0-1 Sorcerous Spyglass
0-2 Runed Halo
0-2 Zealous Persecution
0-2 Lost Legacy
0-2 Auriok Champion
0-2 Slaughter the Strong
0-2 Damnation
0-2 Wrath of God
+ 0-1 Surgical Extraction
I really liked to run Runed Halo naming Death shadow, valakut, primeval Titan, slippery boogle etc. Been a while since I played BW Tokens so can't say how relevant it is.
Is Lost legacy not necessary due to all hand disruptions? It can also help like runed halo but instead more proactively but does nothing when a creature is on the field already
People nowadays seems to be playing boardwipes, I've not been running any before but instead 1-2 zealous, I take it you run either those or boardwipes?
Any suggestions what to add to my SB?
Yes, that is B/W Gideon. Not a fan tbh, too controlish for me. I still want to swing with my creature as early as possible while still able to disrupt.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.