One would never want multiple Windbrisk Heights in hand or likely even in a game. That makes four a no-go for me. It bit me in the butt way too many times for my taste, forcing me to put cards I needed on the bottom of the deck. I play twenty-three lands and I prefer my tap-lands to do something more reliably than Windbrisk does.
Contrary to what's been stated, one will not always have three tokens to attack with or be in a position to attack at all. Moreover, there is some land destruction in Modern, not much but watch what happens if Tron gets more play in the future.
A single Windbrisk is fine, the more lands in the deck, the better. Two, okay. Three doesn't sound like a good idea and four is just a bad idea.
All opinions are those of the poster who has no credentials that should incline anyone to take his advice.
I can echo the sentiment on Smuggler's Copter and Windbrisk Height. The card draw to speed up the deck is desirable mid to late game and can be essential to closing out close games.
So what do we run?
I think it depends. My testing of Copter showed me two ways in which you can see the deck. The first relies on a swarm of creatures to get on the board and just repeatedly attack. These creatures overwhelm an opponent's ability to address them efficiently. In this type of build, Windrisk Heights would be preferred (and even Shambling Vent is not completely optimal: even Delver doesn't run man lands). In the second, the decklist plays an avoidance game. Between Shambling Vent, Gideon, the copter activations, it is difficult for your opponent to interact. Vent becomes preferred because the Copter acts as a draw filter and relies heavily upon the non interactions offered by Gideon and friends.
I agree that I wouldn't want 4, Wescoe ran 3 in his 2013 deck. You can fairly reliably get 3 creatures, especially with BB, Gideon, and Sorin and absent our normal creature suite.
I also found that when I wanted to run a bunch of copters, I ran into limits with lands. Wind brisk Heights solves that because it is a land and also can be card draw. BUT, it ETB tapped (but so does Shambling Vent).
I suppose we could ditch Spectral Procession and pick up Dark Confidant.
I believe BW Tokens is significantly better with Fatal Push + Liliana of the Veil. This in addition to the fact that we run 5-6 turn 1 black discard spells mean we must skew our mana base for more dual lands like concealed courtyard and shambling vents. We can no longer accomodate just a single white source.
A similar example is Treetop Village. It produces the 2nd most important color in Abzan - as opposed to our 1st - but it is significantly better than Windbrisk Heights as a card. Yet it is rarely played in Abzan now, at least by decent players. Producing a single mana just isn't good enough for a tapped land in most circumstances.
What I dislike about Windbrisk Heights is you're not guaranteed to hit anything great. Hiding a removal spell or discard spell in the late-game is not exactly where you want to be. From experience, losing a game is 80% of the time due to lack of early interaction and losing tempo, not due to lack of card advantage. Even against decks like UXX control where you want more cards, you really don't want to risk losing tempo to this card due to counterspells potentially locking you out.
(B) Smuggler's Copter:
I've had chances to run this in the main. It's a decent card against decks lacking spot removals and its looting ability is great as well. However, in most circumstances I would consider Selfless Spirit to be a better card. Both are bad against spot removal decks but:
- It is as good offensively (you don't have to crew anything). Also has combat applications.
- Much better defensively, especially in games 2 and 3 where pretty much every deck runs some boardwipes.
- Better in a vacuum, because you don't need to meet the crew condition
So while the looting isn't an insignificant ability, I would argue the spot you could use for Selfless Spirit - protection against boardwipes - is too important to pass up.
(C) Shambling Vent is a double-edged sword. You can't afford to run 4 of it because this deck can't afford to miss playing a spell on curve, when it's already slow as it is. But running 3 is fantastic.
The card is similar in utility as Smuggler's Copter and Selfless Spirit. They are all decent against boardwipes but bad against spot removals. But against decks lacking spot removals, it is one of the best cards in the deck.
Just one attack with Shambling Vents neutralize two turns of Bitterblossom, so I often never have to worry about being out-grinded.
One would never want multiple Windbrisk Heights in hand or likely even in a game. That makes four a no-go for me. It bit me in the butt way too many times for my taste, forcing me to put cards I needed on the bottom of the deck. I play twenty-three lands and I prefer my tap-lands to do something more reliably than Windbrisk does.
Contrary to what's been stated, one will not always have three tokens to attack with or be in a position to attack at all. Moreover, there is some land destruction in Modern, not much but watch what happens if Tron gets more play in the future.
A single Windbrisk is fine, the more lands in the deck, the better. Two, okay. Three doesn't sound like a good idea and four is just a bad idea.
All opinions are those of the poster who has no credentials that should incline anyone to take his advice.
I run 25 lands as getting mana for Sorin is very important and getting 3 mana turn 3 is very important. I sometimes board out 1 of the colourless lands.
While you wouldn't want multiple Windbrisks in anything but the longest of games, I wouldn't run less for fear of seeing less as it's a card I definitely want to see. It's a valuable source of card-draw and card-filtering as it lets you dig through your topdecks for what will be most relevant. Treat it like Serum Visions.
If I had 23 lands I wouldn't have 4 Windbrisk, though I'm not sure why you'd be cutting lands in a deck that lacks cantrips/draw/card-fixing though as that's just asking for trouble, land isn't your enemy. Windbrisk is very reliable in a token shell as well, it's pretty much the only time it is reliable and why we're best positioned to take advantage of it like the meta-dominating weenies decks of old were in it's Standard rotation.
As for credentials, I've won Grand Prix Trials and GP side tournaments, I've won many FNMs before with various decks against a competitive field. I've never claimed to be a Pro Player but when you look at the last couple of years and Pro Players that have touched the deck there are not many, one that did was Martin Juza. It was a different meta, before a few card releases but his team ran BW Tokens with 4 Windbrisk. Tokens as a shell is also relatively timeless, and again, as I've stated multiple times, BW Tokens in a meta-call at high level. Take whatever you want to take in casual Modern but if you want to place at a big event, no changes to the deck will allow it to do that constantly against every field, against fields stacked with Grixis/Jeskai Control and Jund, yes, you'll do well, against all-in Combo decks and Tron, tokens struggles.
Edit - Single White is also why we run some copies of Fetid Heath. Single White is also far more optimal than black or colourless due to Spectral Procession. As long as you have enough Black to consistently get Black, White is king. I run 4 Marsh Flats, 4 Godless Shrine, 4 Concealed Courtyard with a lone swamp. I also have 2 Fetid Heaths.
I suppose we could ditch Spectral Procession and pick up Dark Confidant.
Spectral Procession is one of the best cards in the deck, really it's as good a reason as any to be BW instead of BWx.
Dark Confidant is a very good card in the right deck, but it falls into a similar trap to cards like Tidehollow Sculler. It adds a spot removal target to a deck which has lack of weakness to spot removal as one of it's biggest advantages. It also doesn't synergise with Intangible Virtue. If you drop both Intangible Virtue and Spectral Procession for Bob, really you might as well look at running some kind of Abzan list and forget about being BW tokens at all.
One would never want multiple Windbrisk Heights in hand or likely even in a game. That makes four a no-go for me. It bit me in the butt way too many times for my taste, forcing me to put cards I needed on the bottom of the deck. I play twenty-three lands and I prefer my tap-lands to do something more reliably than Windbrisk does.
Contrary to what's been stated, one will not always have three tokens to attack with or be in a position to attack at all. Moreover, there is some land destruction in Modern, not much but watch what happens if Tron gets more play in the future.
A single Windbrisk is fine, the more lands in the deck, the better. Two, okay. Three doesn't sound like a good idea and four is just a bad idea.
All opinions are those of the poster who has no credentials that should incline anyone to take his advice.
I run 25 lands as getting mana for Sorin is very important and getting 3 mana turn 3 is very important. I sometimes board out 1 of the colourless lands.
While you wouldn't want multiple Windbrisks in anything but the longest of games, I wouldn't run less for fear of seeing less as it's a card I definitely want to see. It's a valuable source of card-draw and card-filtering as it lets you dig through your topdecks for what will be most relevant. If I had 23 lands, I wouldn't have 4 Windbrisk though, I'm not sure why you'd be cutting lands in a deck that lacks cantrips/draw/card-fixing though as that's just asking for trouble, land isn't your enemy.
As for credentials, I've won Grand Prix Trials and GP side tournaments, I've won many FNMs before with various decks. I've never claimed to be a Pro Player but when you look at the last couple of years and Pro Players that have touched the deck there are not many, one that did was Martin Juza. It was a different meta, before a few card releases but his team run BW Tokens with 4 Windbrisk. Tokens as a shell is also relatively timeless, and again, as I've stated multiple times, BW Tokens in a meta-call at high level. Take whatever you want to take in casual Modern but if you want to place at a big event, no changes to the deck will allow it to do that constantly against every field, against Fields stacked with Grixis/Jeskai Control and Jund, yes, you'll do well, against all-in Combo decks and Tron, tokens struggles.
4 Windbrisk seems like a bad idea. How often do you want to see multiples of this card? If we just want to draw one copy, the probability of drawing 3 vs 4 is about a 28% vs 33%. Regardless of how you look at the probability, I don't think Windbrisk Heights is a "must see" card simply because it's too slow. When the card works, what percentage of the time does the effect contribute to a win and what percentage of the time was it simply win-more? These are the questions I ask when I test a card like Heights and I have to say the pros don't outweigh the cons.
23-24 lands is pretty standard for tokens, since our curve is similar to BGx while demanding less color fixing. I often find myself flooded using 23 lands, both in real life and through online gameplays (a random generator is used); certainly more flooded than mana screwed. I use 24 lands when I need to use 2-4 colorless lands but I don't think too highly of Ghost Quarters and only prefer 1 Vault of the Archangel.
An argument that can be made is that the extra lands can easily be extra spells. Density of spells is another form of card advantage.
You're right Tokens will struggle against combo decks and Tron. But why would Windbrisk Heights be of any use there? It's easily one of the worst cards in that match-up. Windbrisk Heights is fantastic against grindy decks but a nuisance to decks we want to improve in - fast wide aggro and combo. I wouldn't mind running 1-2 if my meta was midrange heavy but it's not.
To conclude, no one is forcing you to not run a specific card. Here, we are just concerned with maximum competitive potential. If you have good counter-arguments to make, sure the debate can continue.
Since no one is answering in the casual part of this forum, I'm trying my luck here. I hope I don't break any rules by doing so.
I want to remodel/redesign some of my decks and one of them is going to be BW Smallpox/Tokens. I know my deck is not modern legal, but this forum seems to be the best starting point, apart from the casual section.
What do you guys think? Anything you'd change, add or remove? I know that some Liliana of the Veils or Thoughtseizes would be awesome, but those cards are not only too expensive, their powerlevel is also too high for my playgroup. Most of our decks are like $100-200 and adding cards that strong wouldn't be fair, I guess.
Since no one is answering in the casual part of this forum, I'm trying my luck here. I hope I don't break any rules by doing so.
I want to remodel/redesign some of my decks and one of them is going to be BW Smallpox/Tokens. I know my deck is not modern legal, but this forum seems to be the best starting point, apart from the casual section.
What do you guys think? Anything you'd change, add or remove? I know that some Liliana of the Veils or Thoughtseizes would be awesome, but those cards are not only too expensive, their powerlevel is also too high for my playgroup. Most of our decks are like $100-200 and adding cards that strong wouldn't be fair, I guess.
Are you playing for Legacy then? I suggest you look into BR Blitzkrieg & 8 Rack or just ask on Legacy Reddit forums. Right now your build is too different to discuss here.
Discard / Deathcloud oriented decks need to be either go all-in on the discard plans to combo with Racks or play cheap efficient beaters like Tarmogoyf so that both players play off the top of their deck and you win with sheer superior card quality.
Monastery Mentor is an easy cut if you're not playing Blue in Legacy. Not to mention your decks lack enough cheap interactions to fuel it even remotely.
I understand your deck is totally budget but you can do much better if you build some game plan with the deck. For instance, you should realize filling your deck with discards will make it terrible late-game without some kind of lifeloss interaction like Rack.
I tried to recreate Frank Lepore's BW Smallpox deck and I'm only running 5 cards, that are not legal in Modern, so I thought I could ask here. I know that this deck is not optimal and won't stand a chance in any competitive environment. That's ok, since I'm only playing with friends.
I'm sorry for posting in the wrong thread. I'll stay in the casual section, I guess^^
Equating it to Serum Visions is an insult to Serum Visions.
1. Serum Visions immediately replaces itself. Windbrisk on the other hand, is simply a tapland UNTIL you attack with 3 creatures assuming it hasn't been Ghost Quartered.
2. Serum Visions then lets you set up the top 2 cards. If you see something you don't like, you can bottom it, and if you do like, you can sequence it. Windbrisk lets you take 1 card out of the top 4, and with a high land count seeing 4 lands, or 3 lands and 1 thoughtseize is not uncommon. Worse yet is seeing 2 or 3 things you want to draw (like your sideboard) and now having to put some on the bottom, or risk not having your sideboard stuck under the land until you battalion it out.
3. Serum Visions doesn't have any pre-existing requirement other than the mana cost. Windbrisk demands a very specific condition be fulfilled before you can enjoy that one card.
All that being said, yes, this deck is probably good at fulfilling the windbrisk requirement in a vacuum. However, it can also be said that windbrisk actually gives spot removal in the opponent's hand a purpose - keeping your creature count at 2 or less. Also in favor, the pay-off of possibly finding something good (like Sorin) and then cheating it in later for 2 mana at instant speed is decent. but its not Serum Visions, or even Ancient Stirrings. I dare venture that more often than not, we finish with cards under our windbrisk than having used them. I personally use 2, but I wouldn't bring it to 4.
Saying Windbrisk is a definite 4-of and then in the next breath saying this deck is a bad choice for a fast meta is just funny. That's like playing the version of Grixis Control with AV and Cryptic and then lamenting that Grixis Control is weak against fast metas. Those running Thought Scours and Mana Leaks instead are just confused by the outburst. With 8 possible 1 cmc removals, this deck is shaped to take on tech that will allow it to thrive in a much larger envelope. If there are few glistener elves or guides in one's local meta, then sure, windbrisk heights could be a staple. In an open meta or a fast one, however, it just isn't the right place for be playing tapped lands.
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One would never want multiple Windbrisk Heights in hand or likely even in a game. That makes four a no-go for me. It bit me in the butt way too many times for my taste, forcing me to put cards I needed on the bottom of the deck. I play twenty-three lands and I prefer my tap-lands to do something more reliably than Windbrisk does.
Contrary to what's been stated, one will not always have three tokens to attack with or be in a position to attack at all. Moreover, there is some land destruction in Modern, not much but watch what happens if Tron gets more play in the future.
A single Windbrisk is fine, the more lands in the deck, the better. Two, okay. Three doesn't sound like a good idea and four is just a bad idea.
All opinions are those of the poster who has no credentials that should incline anyone to take his advice.
I run 25 lands as getting mana for Sorin is very important and getting 3 mana turn 3 is very important. I sometimes board out 1 of the colourless lands.
While you wouldn't want multiple Windbrisks in anything but the longest of games, I wouldn't run less for fear of seeing less as it's a card I definitely want to see. It's a valuable source of card-draw and card-filtering as it lets you dig through your topdecks for what will be most relevant. If I had 23 lands, I wouldn't have 4 Windbrisk though, I'm not sure why you'd be cutting lands in a deck that lacks cantrips/draw/card-fixing though as that's just asking for trouble, land isn't your enemy.
As for credentials, I've won Grand Prix Trials and GP side tournaments, I've won many FNMs before with various decks. I've never claimed to be a Pro Player but when you look at the last couple of years and Pro Players that have touched the deck there are not many, one that did was Martin Juza. It was a different meta, before a few card releases but his team run BW Tokens with 4 Windbrisk. Tokens as a shell is also relatively timeless, and again, as I've stated multiple times, BW Tokens in a meta-call at high level. Take whatever you want to take in casual Modern but if you want to place at a big event, no changes to the deck will allow it to do that constantly against every field, against Fields stacked with Grixis/Jeskai Control and Jund, yes, you'll do well, against all-in Combo decks and Tron, tokens struggles.
4 Windbrisk seems like a bad idea. How often do you want to see multiples of this card? If we just want to draw one copy, the probability of drawing 3 vs 4 is about a 28% vs 33%. Regardless of how you look at the probability, I don't think Windbrisk Heights is a "must see" card simply because it's too slow. When the card works, what percentage of the time does the effect contribute to a win and what percentage of the time was it simply win-more? These are the questions I ask when I test a card like Heights and I have to say the pros don't outweigh the cons.
23-24 lands is pretty standard for tokens, since our curve is similar to BGx while demanding less color fixing. I often find myself flooded using 23 lands, both in real life and through online gameplays (a random generator is used); certainly more flooded than mana screwed. I use 24 lands when I need to use 2-4 colorless lands but I don't think too highly of Ghost Quarters and only prefer 1 Vault of the Archangel.
An argument that can be made is that the extra lands can easily be extra spells. Density of spells is another form of card advantage.
You're right Tokens will struggle against combo decks and Tron. But why would Windbrisk Heights be of any use there? It's easily one of the worst cards in that match-up. Windbrisk Heights is fantastic against grindy decks but a nuisance to decks we want to improve in - fast wide aggro and combo. I wouldn't mind running 1-2 if my meta was midrange heavy but it's not.
To conclude, no one is forcing you to not run a specific card. Here, we are just concerned with maximum competitive potential. If you have good counter-arguments to make, sure the debate can continue.
How often do you have excess land after you hit your curve? Or not enough land? You can take less to see less, obviously, that logic is faultless, at the same time, taking more will mean you will see more. If you don't value the card, you wont want more, if you do value the card you'll appreciate being able to pull it more often. Any deck can brick or fluke a match with 3 of something even if there is only 3 in the deck. Personally I prefer having more as it's a very valuable card.
23 land for me is too inconsistent for t3 3 mana EVERY game and t4 Sorin MOST games. If I'm not getting 3 land EVERY game by t3, my deck isn't working, I need minimum 24. I can see arguments for 24 but I run 25. I also run 2 copies of Vault of the Archangel. Betweeen 2 copies of Vault, Windbrisk and flashing back Souls I don't find I get into many problems with excess useless mana barring just bad luck. I board out 1 of the Vaults and go down to 24 land in a bunch of matches, I'd never board down to 23, especially not in a deck that lacks cards like Visions for consistency. I don't run Ghost Quarter at all, I have 3 Duress, 3 Stony Silence and 2 Anguished Unmaking sideboard which are all relevant against Tron which is the most likely time I'd want a Ghost Quarter.
Windbrisk sometimes (not always) helps to dig for counters to Combos from your list of sideboard cards by letting you sift through the top of your deck for it. Mostly it doesn't help in bad matches. The point I was making is that there isn't any point hurting yourself in the matches where you do well for the sake of the ones you don't. Accept you've got bad matches and play a deck according to your meta, don't make a token deck to do something that another deck does better if you want to reach maximum competitive potential.
Equating it to Serum Visions is an insult to Serum Visions.
1. Serum Visions immediately replaces itself. Windbrisk on the other hand, is simply a tapland UNTIL you attack with 3 creatures assuming it hasn't been Ghost Quartered.
2. Serum Visions then lets you set up the top 2 cards. If you see something you don't like, you can bottom it, and if you do like, you can sequence it. Windbrisk lets you take 1 card out of the top 4, and with a high land count seeing 4 lands, or 3 lands and 1 thoughtseize is not uncommon. Worse yet is seeing 2 or 3 things you want to draw (like your sideboard) and now having to put some on the bottom, or risk not having your sideboard stuck under the land until you battalion it out.
3. Serum Visions doesn't have any pre-existing requirement other than the mana cost. Windbrisk demands a very specific condition be fulfilled before you can enjoy that one card.
All that being said, yes, this deck is probably good at fulfilling the windbrisk requirement in a vacuum. However, it can also be said that windbrisk actually gives spot removal in the opponent's hand a purpose - keeping your creature count at 2 or less. Also in favor, the pay-off of possibly finding something good (like Sorin) and then cheating it in later for 2 mana at instant speed is decent. but its not Serum Visions, or even Ancient Stirrings. I dare venture that more often than not, we finish with cards under our windbrisk than having used them. I personally use 2, but I wouldn't bring it to 4.
Saying Windbrisk is a definite 4-of and then in the next breath saying this deck is a bad choice for a fast meta is just funny. That's like playing the version of Grixis Control with AV and Cryptic and then lamenting that Grixis Control is weak against fast metas. Those running Thought Scours and Mana Leaks instead are just confused by the outburst. With 8 possible 1 cmc removals, this deck is shaped to take on tech that will allow it to thrive in a much larger envelope. If there are few glistener elves or guides in one's local meta, then sure, windbrisk heights could be a staple. In an open meta or a fast one, however, it just isn't the right place for be playing tapped lands.
Visions and Stirrings are obviously better, but they are also spells, Windbrisk is a land, a land that not just draws the card, it can play it cheaper or at instant speed. It wont always be a goldmine but it 100% helps the longer the game goes, on curve I've had success with it as well as a t1 play when I haven't had handhate or alongside handhate t2.
3 tokens isn't a lot of tokens either, that's a single Procession or Timely, or it's a Bitterblossom + Lingering and cards like Lingering and Bitterblossom help replenish boardstates. If you can't get 3 bodies on the field you're not running enough token generators as that's exactly the point of tokens, to generate a lot of bodies.
If they have spot removal, they're likely using it anyway, spot removal is bad against the deck with or without Windbrisk, just because it's bad it's not going to stop them removing something that's killing them if they can. The alternative of Shambling Vent gets bolted/quartered anyway.
BW Tokens since the very first time it saw play in an Eternal format has ALWAYS been a meta call. Always. It's not a good meta call with or without Windbrisk against certain decks. Taking out Windbrisk might be the way to go to improve matches against some decks, but it's also a way to hurt yourself in the times when the deck does best like against Jund.
We've wasted a page and a half on Windbrisk Heights. Sabinfrost, you obviously aren't going to change your mind on it and you have made your point. Get off the subject now please. Windbrisk is in the options of BW Tokens, but currently not one of the better solutions to mana fixing or deck acceleration. Smuggler's Copter, Hidden Stockpile or possibly even Phyrexian Arena for deck manipulation is what I see as best fit.
I basically addressed your first paragraph with probability. Running 4 vs 3 is not a tremendous difference unless you actually believe the card is so good that you don't mind seeing multiples in your hand. If you actually believe that, I'll concede my point as it's a lost cause.
The difference between 23 lands and 24/25 lands is not substantial. A simple experiment is to replace a two-of card in your deck with lands and see how often you actually draw them. Here is a useful guideline from a forum I read:
22/60 = 37% chance of drawing a land, and 2.5 lands in your starting hand on average.
24/60 = 40% chance of drawing a land, and 2.8 lands in your starting hand.
23/60 = between those other two.
If we factor in the possibility of drawing lands on turn 2 and turn 3, as well as being on the draw, it's totally reasonable to run 23/ 24 lands though no less than that.
To make another point, even most control decks run 22-24 lands. Look at Grixis Control - most lists run 22 lands. Though granted that's because they run a ton of cantrips. Control decks that run 25 lands are decks that typically need to reach 4-mana consistently for Nahiri or Cryptic Command or Supreme Verdict. Considering we only need to reach our 3-mana cards consistently, well it's kind of redundant to run 25 lands.
The reason why we're not playing Windbrisk Heights isn't because it's just a hindrance where it's bad. It's often a hindrance in matches where it's supposed to be good by messing up our color requirements or tempo.
If we want to talk about improving matches we're already good at, there are better cards for that: zealous persecution, Liliana of the Veil (though also phenomenal in the bad ones), more token generators, more planeswalkers, etc. I remember reading Melissa De Tora's article on Tokens and one thing stood out to me: Windbrisk Heights often doesn't hide anything the opponent has to worry about.
I've never once had Windbrisk effect colour requirements running 4 fetch, 4 shock, 4 fastlands and two filters.
We do want to hit 4-5 mana if you're planning on playing Sorin or Vault on curve. There are numerous plays at 4-5 mana as we don't belch out our hand, have flashback and don't tend to kill before then. Mana is not a bad thing.
I remember reading articles espousing the benefits of Windbrisk if you want to go tic for tac. Martin Juza and his team have far more deck building knowledge and credentials than this entire thread combined.
Also 3 cantrips = 1 land if you're using control as an example. No cantrips = more land.
Now and then you get more land than you need or not enough, that's Magic. I'd rather have too much than not enough. Especially with Souls flashback (or essentially cast for 5 for 4 bodies). I'd also like the mana to consistently drop Sorin and activate Vault so I have nothing to worry about from my Bitterblossoms.
Greetings everyone, Semi-long time MTG player here, and a new member of the forum.
First of all, English isn't my native language. So... sorry in advance for any errors.
Second, let me express my gratitude to the very existence of this primer as well as all those who posted on it. Both the information on the primer, as well as the arguments and points that were discussed here greatly helped me construct and test my own BW token deck through the two last years. Without it, I do not think I would have loved playing this deck so much and for that, I thank all of you.
With that being said, I wanted to contribute in some way by posting my decklist and tell everyone how well/bad I've fared against my local meta. Here's the deck:
First of all, yes I know, I'm missing some Marsh Flats. These are my priority upgrades to do, but they're kinda hard to find, let alone trade for.
Some of you may have noticed I have nothing against Tron. Why? Simple. My local Meta has no Tron deck as well as no Scapeshift deck, so I adjusted my sideboard accordingly (Lucky me). Meanwhile, Burn is rampant, hence the Auriok Champion in the Main deck. Very few control player, but I know of my friend who religiously plays Blue Moon, which is why I have more basic lands then the usual on my list. I also know that there is a lantern control player and a 8-rack player, which is why I have Leyline of sanctity Sideboard as well as two Sundering Growth to get rid of that pesky Ensnaring Bridge. The rest is usually a mix of Aggro, Burn and affinity, with the occasional Boggle and Infect, which is mostly manageable. We're usually around 8-12 people when we have events and Modern is probably the most heavily played format at my local store. I'm gonna list how I feel about the match-ups I see often
Burn: (75%W/25%L) I agree entirely with the Primer here. Auriok Chamipon and Sorin, Solemn visitor are my saviors. A T2 Auriok usually net me a free win, and I've lost count of how many times Sorin helped me secure games. I usually side out Thoughtseize and even Inquisition of Kozilek to bring in Leyline of sanctity (duh) and Runed Halo. Most of the Burn decks I encounter are Boros (Red+White), and most are favorable match-up. Although, I do really hate Anger of the Gods and I occasionally lose Auriok to Path to exile.
Infect: (50%W/50%L) I believe this is the deck I hate the most playing against. Their Hexproof spells are really problematic for me, and I hate it when they drop a T1 Glistener elf. Really glad they lost Gitaxian Probe, as it prevented me from bluffing a removal.
Lantern Control: (65%W/35%L) Game one is very often a loss, but game two/three, while grindy, is usually a win, thanks to Stony Silence. The biggest enemy here is the time limit, which we tend to bust (or be very close to) when Ensnaring Bridge shows its ugly face. Probably the Match-up where I did the most 1-1 against because of the timer.
Blue Moon: (40%W/60%L) Gosh darn this deck is hard. I have a feeling that whether I win or lose is ENTIRELY dependent on whether or not my opponent misplays something or mulligans too much. The fact that game two means I'm gonna get to see Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods also doesn't help here, and since my friend knows I have Surgical Extraction, he runs 2 of each, along with two engineered explosives. I'm still not sure how to side appropriately against it. Oh, and he loves Spell Pierce. I don't.
Boggle: (45%W/55%L) I've lost a lot to boggle recently, which made me put an extra copy of Runed Halo. I'm even thinking on running some mainboard, since my meta is very aggro. With that being said, I don't really know what else to side against boggle other than more hand hate. I also don't think I've ever won the first round ever against Boggle.
Affinity: (70%W/30%L) You may think I'm crazy, but I love playing against Affinity. Playing that path to exile on their 11/11 inkmoth nexus after they sacrificed their field with Arcbound Ravager is SOOOOO satisfying. Also, my token being flying really helps to block optimally. Game 2 is usually just a formality since my sideboard is so anti-affinity I almost feel sorry for any affinity player that crosses my path. Still, When I lose, it's either because of a rogue Spellskite (Very good card), or because I played like a dumb potato. They also have these occasional crazy fast start when they get that Mox Opal.
8-Rack: (50%W/50%L) Depend on who gets their cards first. Love it when I have to discard a Lingering Souls, but I hate the Smallpox land sacrifice. Game 2/3 isn't easier or harder. If I get my Leyline of Sanctity and manage to get rid of Liliana of the veil and Ensnaring Bridge, there is usually no problem. Otherwise, I hope I can swarm before my hand is empty.
That's quite a post, especially for a first, MisterMuffin21. Here are some responses.
Two copies of Isolated Chapel is at least one and probably two too many; there's just no reason to use that card anymore. Another Concealed Courtyard or another fetch-land or a Fetid Heath would seem to be a better choice.
Four copies of Godless Shrine seems too many as well; two is enough. One almost never wants to fetch B more than once in a game. More fetch-lands would probably lower your life-loss and would also improve your game against Blood Moon.
Obviously, any additions would require a removal and you've probably seen all these cards anyway, but it's early and I've got some time to kill and you did ask it.
Do you have difficulty getting eBay sellers to deliver? Or is there some other problem with getting cards? Send a private message if you want.
Since no one is answering in the casual part of this forum, I'm trying my luck here. I hope I don't break any rules by doing so.
I want to remodel/redesign some of my decks and one of them is going to be BW Smallpox/Tokens. I know my deck is not modern legal, but this forum seems to be the best starting point, apart from the casual section.
What do you guys think? Anything you'd change, add or remove? I know that some Liliana of the Veils or Thoughtseizes would be awesome, but those cards are not only too expensive, their powerlevel is also too high for my playgroup. Most of our decks are like $100-200 and adding cards that strong wouldn't be fair, I guess.
If you stick to Modern cards, at least for the purpose of posting in Modern forums, you might get some help in the Budget forum.
Personally, I run as many Shrines and BW lands as I can. I don't like 4 or even 3 concealed courtyard because they kept ETB tapped late game when I needed 4 mana. 2 seems good and it synergies better than Isolated Chapel.
On a side note, while we all reference and read articles by the pros, I think it is also important to realize that with the exception of a few, most of the pros focus on standard and (by their own admission) their knowledge of modern and legacy and other formats is more limited. This isn't to say that they don't know anything or shouldn't be listened to, but rather that there are regular contributors to modern forums whose opinions I take rather seriously because I know they grind modern a lot. Several regular contributors here, for example, I may not agree with, but I also listen to their opinions and respect their judgement. I think that they have a lot of good insights and a lot of experiencing grinding BW tokens (certainly more than I do). IMO they are the experts on the archetype, even more so than some of the pros who picked up the deck for a weekend. I mean, I Craig Wescoe and Melissa De Tora, but I don't always agree with them and where they take the deck. I use the ideas I read about in my own brews to see if the deck gets better. I have my own preferences, and sometimes I don't like the tweak or the card interactions and abandon it.
My point is that there are plenty of experts on MTG Salvation. They aren't all pros.
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Contrary to what's been stated, one will not always have three tokens to attack with or be in a position to attack at all. Moreover, there is some land destruction in Modern, not much but watch what happens if Tron gets more play in the future.
A single Windbrisk is fine, the more lands in the deck, the better. Two, okay. Three doesn't sound like a good idea and four is just a bad idea.
All opinions are those of the poster who has no credentials that should incline anyone to take his advice.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
So what do we run?
I think it depends. My testing of Copter showed me two ways in which you can see the deck. The first relies on a swarm of creatures to get on the board and just repeatedly attack. These creatures overwhelm an opponent's ability to address them efficiently. In this type of build, Windrisk Heights would be preferred (and even Shambling Vent is not completely optimal: even Delver doesn't run man lands). In the second, the decklist plays an avoidance game. Between Shambling Vent, Gideon, the copter activations, it is difficult for your opponent to interact. Vent becomes preferred because the Copter acts as a draw filter and relies heavily upon the non interactions offered by Gideon and friends.
I agree that I wouldn't want 4, Wescoe ran 3 in his 2013 deck. You can fairly reliably get 3 creatures, especially with BB, Gideon, and Sorin and absent our normal creature suite.
I also found that when I wanted to run a bunch of copters, I ran into limits with lands. Wind brisk Heights solves that because it is a land and also can be card draw. BUT, it ETB tapped (but so does Shambling Vent).
I suppose we could ditch Spectral Procession and pick up Dark Confidant.
I believe BW Tokens is significantly better with Fatal Push + Liliana of the Veil. This in addition to the fact that we run 5-6 turn 1 black discard spells mean we must skew our mana base for more dual lands like concealed courtyard and shambling vents. We can no longer accomodate just a single white source.
A similar example is Treetop Village. It produces the 2nd most important color in Abzan - as opposed to our 1st - but it is significantly better than Windbrisk Heights as a card. Yet it is rarely played in Abzan now, at least by decent players. Producing a single mana just isn't good enough for a tapped land in most circumstances.
What I dislike about Windbrisk Heights is you're not guaranteed to hit anything great. Hiding a removal spell or discard spell in the late-game is not exactly where you want to be. From experience, losing a game is 80% of the time due to lack of early interaction and losing tempo, not due to lack of card advantage. Even against decks like UXX control where you want more cards, you really don't want to risk losing tempo to this card due to counterspells potentially locking you out.
(B) Smuggler's Copter:
I've had chances to run this in the main. It's a decent card against decks lacking spot removals and its looting ability is great as well. However, in most circumstances I would consider Selfless Spirit to be a better card. Both are bad against spot removal decks but:
- It is as good offensively (you don't have to crew anything). Also has combat applications.
- Much better defensively, especially in games 2 and 3 where pretty much every deck runs some boardwipes.
- Better in a vacuum, because you don't need to meet the crew condition
So while the looting isn't an insignificant ability, I would argue the spot you could use for Selfless Spirit - protection against boardwipes - is too important to pass up.
(C) Shambling Vent is a double-edged sword. You can't afford to run 4 of it because this deck can't afford to miss playing a spell on curve, when it's already slow as it is. But running 3 is fantastic.
The card is similar in utility as Smuggler's Copter and Selfless Spirit. They are all decent against boardwipes but bad against spot removals. But against decks lacking spot removals, it is one of the best cards in the deck.
Just one attack with Shambling Vents neutralize two turns of Bitterblossom, so I often never have to worry about being out-grinded.
I run 25 lands as getting mana for Sorin is very important and getting 3 mana turn 3 is very important. I sometimes board out 1 of the colourless lands.
While you wouldn't want multiple Windbrisks in anything but the longest of games, I wouldn't run less for fear of seeing less as it's a card I definitely want to see. It's a valuable source of card-draw and card-filtering as it lets you dig through your topdecks for what will be most relevant. Treat it like Serum Visions.
If I had 23 lands I wouldn't have 4 Windbrisk, though I'm not sure why you'd be cutting lands in a deck that lacks cantrips/draw/card-fixing though as that's just asking for trouble, land isn't your enemy. Windbrisk is very reliable in a token shell as well, it's pretty much the only time it is reliable and why we're best positioned to take advantage of it like the meta-dominating weenies decks of old were in it's Standard rotation.
As for credentials, I've won Grand Prix Trials and GP side tournaments, I've won many FNMs before with various decks against a competitive field. I've never claimed to be a Pro Player but when you look at the last couple of years and Pro Players that have touched the deck there are not many, one that did was Martin Juza. It was a different meta, before a few card releases but his team ran BW Tokens with 4 Windbrisk. Tokens as a shell is also relatively timeless, and again, as I've stated multiple times, BW Tokens in a meta-call at high level. Take whatever you want to take in casual Modern but if you want to place at a big event, no changes to the deck will allow it to do that constantly against every field, against fields stacked with Grixis/Jeskai Control and Jund, yes, you'll do well, against all-in Combo decks and Tron, tokens struggles.
Edit - Single White is also why we run some copies of Fetid Heath. Single White is also far more optimal than black or colourless due to Spectral Procession. As long as you have enough Black to consistently get Black, White is king. I run 4 Marsh Flats, 4 Godless Shrine, 4 Concealed Courtyard with a lone swamp. I also have 2 Fetid Heaths.
Spectral Procession is one of the best cards in the deck, really it's as good a reason as any to be BW instead of BWx.
Dark Confidant is a very good card in the right deck, but it falls into a similar trap to cards like Tidehollow Sculler. It adds a spot removal target to a deck which has lack of weakness to spot removal as one of it's biggest advantages. It also doesn't synergise with Intangible Virtue. If you drop both Intangible Virtue and Spectral Procession for Bob, really you might as well look at running some kind of Abzan list and forget about being BW tokens at all.
4 Windbrisk seems like a bad idea. How often do you want to see multiples of this card? If we just want to draw one copy, the probability of drawing 3 vs 4 is about a 28% vs 33%. Regardless of how you look at the probability, I don't think Windbrisk Heights is a "must see" card simply because it's too slow. When the card works, what percentage of the time does the effect contribute to a win and what percentage of the time was it simply win-more? These are the questions I ask when I test a card like Heights and I have to say the pros don't outweigh the cons.
23-24 lands is pretty standard for tokens, since our curve is similar to BGx while demanding less color fixing. I often find myself flooded using 23 lands, both in real life and through online gameplays (a random generator is used); certainly more flooded than mana screwed. I use 24 lands when I need to use 2-4 colorless lands but I don't think too highly of Ghost Quarters and only prefer 1 Vault of the Archangel.
An argument that can be made is that the extra lands can easily be extra spells. Density of spells is another form of card advantage.
You're right Tokens will struggle against combo decks and Tron. But why would Windbrisk Heights be of any use there? It's easily one of the worst cards in that match-up. Windbrisk Heights is fantastic against grindy decks but a nuisance to decks we want to improve in - fast wide aggro and combo. I wouldn't mind running 1-2 if my meta was midrange heavy but it's not.
To conclude, no one is forcing you to not run a specific card. Here, we are just concerned with maximum competitive potential. If you have good counter-arguments to make, sure the debate can continue.
I want to remodel/redesign some of my decks and one of them is going to be BW Smallpox/Tokens. I know my deck is not modern legal, but this forum seems to be the best starting point, apart from the casual section.
3 Concealed Courtyard
3 Scoured Barrens
2 Shambling Vent
7 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
3 Temple of Silence
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Death Cloud
1 Death Grasp
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Disenchant
4 Duress
1 Gideon Jura
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
4 Orzhov Signet
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Smallpox
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Wrath of God
2 Monastery Mentor
What do you guys think? Anything you'd change, add or remove? I know that some Liliana of the Veils or Thoughtseizes would be awesome, but those cards are not only too expensive, their powerlevel is also too high for my playgroup. Most of our decks are like $100-200 and adding cards that strong wouldn't be fair, I guess.
Are you playing for Legacy then? I suggest you look into BR Blitzkrieg & 8 Rack or just ask on Legacy Reddit forums. Right now your build is too different to discuss here.
Discard / Deathcloud oriented decks need to be either go all-in on the discard plans to combo with Racks or play cheap efficient beaters like Tarmogoyf so that both players play off the top of their deck and you win with sheer superior card quality.
Monastery Mentor is an easy cut if you're not playing Blue in Legacy. Not to mention your decks lack enough cheap interactions to fuel it even remotely.
I understand your deck is totally budget but you can do much better if you build some game plan with the deck. For instance, you should realize filling your deck with discards will make it terrible late-game without some kind of lifeloss interaction like Rack.
I'm sorry for posting in the wrong thread. I'll stay in the casual section, I guess^^
Equating it to Serum Visions is an insult to Serum Visions.
1. Serum Visions immediately replaces itself. Windbrisk on the other hand, is simply a tapland UNTIL you attack with 3 creatures assuming it hasn't been Ghost Quartered.
2. Serum Visions then lets you set up the top 2 cards. If you see something you don't like, you can bottom it, and if you do like, you can sequence it. Windbrisk lets you take 1 card out of the top 4, and with a high land count seeing 4 lands, or 3 lands and 1 thoughtseize is not uncommon. Worse yet is seeing 2 or 3 things you want to draw (like your sideboard) and now having to put some on the bottom, or risk not having your sideboard stuck under the land until you battalion it out.
3. Serum Visions doesn't have any pre-existing requirement other than the mana cost. Windbrisk demands a very specific condition be fulfilled before you can enjoy that one card.
All that being said, yes, this deck is probably good at fulfilling the windbrisk requirement in a vacuum. However, it can also be said that windbrisk actually gives spot removal in the opponent's hand a purpose - keeping your creature count at 2 or less. Also in favor, the pay-off of possibly finding something good (like Sorin) and then cheating it in later for 2 mana at instant speed is decent. but its not Serum Visions, or even Ancient Stirrings. I dare venture that more often than not, we finish with cards under our windbrisk than having used them. I personally use 2, but I wouldn't bring it to 4.
Saying Windbrisk is a definite 4-of and then in the next breath saying this deck is a bad choice for a fast meta is just funny. That's like playing the version of Grixis Control with AV and Cryptic and then lamenting that Grixis Control is weak against fast metas. Those running Thought Scours and Mana Leaks instead are just confused by the outburst. With 8 possible 1 cmc removals, this deck is shaped to take on tech that will allow it to thrive in a much larger envelope. If there are few glistener elves or guides in one's local meta, then sure, windbrisk heights could be a staple. In an open meta or a fast one, however, it just isn't the right place for be playing tapped lands.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
How often do you have excess land after you hit your curve? Or not enough land? You can take less to see less, obviously, that logic is faultless, at the same time, taking more will mean you will see more. If you don't value the card, you wont want more, if you do value the card you'll appreciate being able to pull it more often. Any deck can brick or fluke a match with 3 of something even if there is only 3 in the deck. Personally I prefer having more as it's a very valuable card.
23 land for me is too inconsistent for t3 3 mana EVERY game and t4 Sorin MOST games. If I'm not getting 3 land EVERY game by t3, my deck isn't working, I need minimum 24. I can see arguments for 24 but I run 25. I also run 2 copies of Vault of the Archangel. Betweeen 2 copies of Vault, Windbrisk and flashing back Souls I don't find I get into many problems with excess useless mana barring just bad luck. I board out 1 of the Vaults and go down to 24 land in a bunch of matches, I'd never board down to 23, especially not in a deck that lacks cards like Visions for consistency. I don't run Ghost Quarter at all, I have 3 Duress, 3 Stony Silence and 2 Anguished Unmaking sideboard which are all relevant against Tron which is the most likely time I'd want a Ghost Quarter.
Windbrisk sometimes (not always) helps to dig for counters to Combos from your list of sideboard cards by letting you sift through the top of your deck for it. Mostly it doesn't help in bad matches. The point I was making is that there isn't any point hurting yourself in the matches where you do well for the sake of the ones you don't. Accept you've got bad matches and play a deck according to your meta, don't make a token deck to do something that another deck does better if you want to reach maximum competitive potential.
Visions and Stirrings are obviously better, but they are also spells, Windbrisk is a land, a land that not just draws the card, it can play it cheaper or at instant speed. It wont always be a goldmine but it 100% helps the longer the game goes, on curve I've had success with it as well as a t1 play when I haven't had handhate or alongside handhate t2.
3 tokens isn't a lot of tokens either, that's a single Procession or Timely, or it's a Bitterblossom + Lingering and cards like Lingering and Bitterblossom help replenish boardstates. If you can't get 3 bodies on the field you're not running enough token generators as that's exactly the point of tokens, to generate a lot of bodies.
If they have spot removal, they're likely using it anyway, spot removal is bad against the deck with or without Windbrisk, just because it's bad it's not going to stop them removing something that's killing them if they can. The alternative of Shambling Vent gets bolted/quartered anyway.
BW Tokens since the very first time it saw play in an Eternal format has ALWAYS been a meta call. Always. It's not a good meta call with or without Windbrisk against certain decks. Taking out Windbrisk might be the way to go to improve matches against some decks, but it's also a way to hurt yourself in the times when the deck does best like against Jund.
I basically addressed your first paragraph with probability. Running 4 vs 3 is not a tremendous difference unless you actually believe the card is so good that you don't mind seeing multiples in your hand. If you actually believe that, I'll concede my point as it's a lost cause.
The difference between 23 lands and 24/25 lands is not substantial. A simple experiment is to replace a two-of card in your deck with lands and see how often you actually draw them. Here is a useful guideline from a forum I read:
22/60 = 37% chance of drawing a land, and 2.5 lands in your starting hand on average.
24/60 = 40% chance of drawing a land, and 2.8 lands in your starting hand.
23/60 = between those other two.
If we factor in the possibility of drawing lands on turn 2 and turn 3, as well as being on the draw, it's totally reasonable to run 23/ 24 lands though no less than that.
To make another point, even most control decks run 22-24 lands. Look at Grixis Control - most lists run 22 lands. Though granted that's because they run a ton of cantrips. Control decks that run 25 lands are decks that typically need to reach 4-mana consistently for Nahiri or Cryptic Command or Supreme Verdict. Considering we only need to reach our 3-mana cards consistently, well it's kind of redundant to run 25 lands.
The reason why we're not playing Windbrisk Heights isn't because it's just a hindrance where it's bad. It's often a hindrance in matches where it's supposed to be good by messing up our color requirements or tempo.
If we want to talk about improving matches we're already good at, there are better cards for that: zealous persecution, Liliana of the Veil (though also phenomenal in the bad ones), more token generators, more planeswalkers, etc. I remember reading Melissa De Tora's article on Tokens and one thing stood out to me: Windbrisk Heights often doesn't hide anything the opponent has to worry about.
We do want to hit 4-5 mana if you're planning on playing Sorin or Vault on curve. There are numerous plays at 4-5 mana as we don't belch out our hand, have flashback and don't tend to kill before then. Mana is not a bad thing.
I remember reading articles espousing the benefits of Windbrisk if you want to go tic for tac. Martin Juza and his team have far more deck building knowledge and credentials than this entire thread combined.
Now and then you get more land than you need or not enough, that's Magic. I'd rather have too much than not enough. Especially with Souls flashback (or essentially cast for 5 for 4 bodies). I'd also like the mana to consistently drop Sorin and activate Vault so I have nothing to worry about from my Bitterblossoms.
please don't take the thread in this direction. don't, okay?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
First of all, English isn't my native language. So... sorry in advance for any errors.
Second, let me express my gratitude to the very existence of this primer as well as all those who posted on it. Both the information on the primer, as well as the arguments and points that were discussed here greatly helped me construct and test my own BW token deck through the two last years. Without it, I do not think I would have loved playing this deck so much and for that, I thank all of you.
With that being said, I wanted to contribute in some way by posting my decklist and tell everyone how well/bad I've fared against my local meta. Here's the deck:
6 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Shambling Vent
2 Isolated Chapel
3 Concealed Courtyard
4 Godless Shrine
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
Creature
3 Auriok Champion
4 Bitterblossom
4 Intangible Virtue
Instant
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Path to Exile
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Murderous Cut
Planeswalker
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Rest in Peace
3 Runed Halo
3 Stony Silence
2 Sundering Growth
2 Leyline of Sanctity
First of all, yes I know, I'm missing some Marsh Flats. These are my priority upgrades to do, but they're kinda hard to find, let alone trade for.
Some of you may have noticed I have nothing against Tron. Why? Simple. My local Meta has no Tron deck as well as no Scapeshift deck, so I adjusted my sideboard accordingly (Lucky me). Meanwhile, Burn is rampant, hence the Auriok Champion in the Main deck. Very few control player, but I know of my friend who religiously plays Blue Moon, which is why I have more basic lands then the usual on my list. I also know that there is a lantern control player and a 8-rack player, which is why I have Leyline of sanctity Sideboard as well as two Sundering Growth to get rid of that pesky Ensnaring Bridge. The rest is usually a mix of Aggro, Burn and affinity, with the occasional Boggle and Infect, which is mostly manageable. We're usually around 8-12 people when we have events and Modern is probably the most heavily played format at my local store. I'm gonna list how I feel about the match-ups I see often
Burn: (75%W/25%L) I agree entirely with the Primer here. Auriok Chamipon and Sorin, Solemn visitor are my saviors. A T2 Auriok usually net me a free win, and I've lost count of how many times Sorin helped me secure games. I usually side out Thoughtseize and even Inquisition of Kozilek to bring in Leyline of sanctity (duh) and Runed Halo. Most of the Burn decks I encounter are Boros (Red+White), and most are favorable match-up. Although, I do really hate Anger of the Gods and I occasionally lose Auriok to Path to exile.
Infect: (50%W/50%L) I believe this is the deck I hate the most playing against. Their Hexproof spells are really problematic for me, and I hate it when they drop a T1 Glistener elf. Really glad they lost Gitaxian Probe, as it prevented me from bluffing a removal.
Lantern Control: (65%W/35%L) Game one is very often a loss, but game two/three, while grindy, is usually a win, thanks to Stony Silence. The biggest enemy here is the time limit, which we tend to bust (or be very close to) when Ensnaring Bridge shows its ugly face. Probably the Match-up where I did the most 1-1 against because of the timer.
Blue Moon: (40%W/60%L) Gosh darn this deck is hard. I have a feeling that whether I win or lose is ENTIRELY dependent on whether or not my opponent misplays something or mulligans too much. The fact that game two means I'm gonna get to see Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods also doesn't help here, and since my friend knows I have Surgical Extraction, he runs 2 of each, along with two engineered explosives. I'm still not sure how to side appropriately against it. Oh, and he loves Spell Pierce. I don't.
Boggle: (45%W/55%L) I've lost a lot to boggle recently, which made me put an extra copy of Runed Halo. I'm even thinking on running some mainboard, since my meta is very aggro. With that being said, I don't really know what else to side against boggle other than more hand hate. I also don't think I've ever won the first round ever against Boggle.
Affinity: (70%W/30%L) You may think I'm crazy, but I love playing against Affinity. Playing that path to exile on their 11/11 inkmoth nexus after they sacrificed their field with Arcbound Ravager is SOOOOO satisfying. Also, my token being flying really helps to block optimally. Game 2 is usually just a formality since my sideboard is so anti-affinity I almost feel sorry for any affinity player that crosses my path. Still, When I lose, it's either because of a rogue Spellskite (Very good card), or because I played like a dumb potato. They also have these occasional crazy fast start when they get that Mox Opal.
8-Rack: (50%W/50%L) Depend on who gets their cards first. Love it when I have to discard a Lingering Souls, but I hate the Smallpox land sacrifice. Game 2/3 isn't easier or harder. If I get my Leyline of Sanctity and manage to get rid of Liliana of the veil and Ensnaring Bridge, there is usually no problem. Otherwise, I hope I can swarm before my hand is empty.
With the new Set comming, I of course plan on testing the brand new Fatal Push, probably at 2, cutting Murderous Cut and Slaughter Pact. I will Maybe, MAYBE, cut one Path to exile for an extra copy of Fatal Push, but it depend on how the card perform. I'm also thinking of cutting both Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Zealous Persecution to try and give a go to Leyline of the meek. Has anyone tested it? Looks like a natural fit for the deck and yet I've seen almost no mention of it here.
Any tips and/or criticism on my deck is welcome and encouraged.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Two copies of Isolated Chapel is at least one and probably two too many; there's just no reason to use that card anymore. Another Concealed Courtyard or another fetch-land or a Fetid Heath would seem to be a better choice.
Four copies of Godless Shrine seems too many as well; two is enough. One almost never wants to fetch B more than once in a game. More fetch-lands would probably lower your life-loss and would also improve your game against Blood Moon.
Burrenton Forge-Tender has always been the go-to card for R sweepers.
Fatal Push will help against Infect, but a side-board copy of Darkblast might be worth a thought. It's even better against Affinity.
Celestial Flare or Blessed Alliance have been the main-stay side-board option for Boggles. Engineered Explosives is another good card in that match-up and some others like Elves and Merfolk.
Obviously, any additions would require a removal and you've probably seen all these cards anyway, but it's early and I've got some time to kill and you did ask it.
Do you have difficulty getting eBay sellers to deliver? Or is there some other problem with getting cards? Send a private message if you want.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
If you stick to Modern cards, at least for the purpose of posting in Modern forums, you might get some help in the Budget forum.
You've a odd group that allows Demonic Tutor but not Thoughtseize.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
On a side note, while we all reference and read articles by the pros, I think it is also important to realize that with the exception of a few, most of the pros focus on standard and (by their own admission) their knowledge of modern and legacy and other formats is more limited. This isn't to say that they don't know anything or shouldn't be listened to, but rather that there are regular contributors to modern forums whose opinions I take rather seriously because I know they grind modern a lot. Several regular contributors here, for example, I may not agree with, but I also listen to their opinions and respect their judgement. I think that they have a lot of good insights and a lot of experiencing grinding BW tokens (certainly more than I do). IMO they are the experts on the archetype, even more so than some of the pros who picked up the deck for a weekend. I mean, I Craig Wescoe and Melissa De Tora, but I don't always agree with them and where they take the deck. I use the ideas I read about in my own brews to see if the deck gets better. I have my own preferences, and sometimes I don't like the tweak or the card interactions and abandon it.
My point is that there are plenty of experts on MTG Salvation. They aren't all pros.