I've been looking into Grixis Delver threads that are crying about Gitaxian Probe. Since I'm bored and I no longer have any reason to run Mardu, I realized while reading that Delver of Secrets can be an interesting deck building choice.
Out of Blue, the notable cards we get in the side are cheap specific counterspells (negate, dispel, etc.) and Geist of Saint Traft for the combo matches.
Delver of Secrets can work assuming we take out Bitterblossom for Raise the Alarm. For the anthem, we replace Intangible Virtue with Favorable Winds. Depending on how we build it, we could do a split rather than taking out some of these cards. We should easily be able to reach 26+ instants/ sorceries to turn on Delver. While Delver turns on spot removal, it is a one-mana investment that has the potential to win the game on its back and gives tokens the clock it needs in its unfavorable matches.
Snapcaster Mage is much better with a Fatal Push being printed. It's not a 4-of however as this deck already accumulates long game card advantage. Its late game application with token generation is worth noting though.
Perhaps the central question for me is whether Serum Visions is worth playing in the deck, competing with discard spells. Liliana of the Veil is also probably not the best option for this sort of the deck.
Also throwing in 2 Tasigur/ Angler in.
While I doubt it's worth the 3rd color, it's a fairly interesting idea that I want to test online.
3 tokens (w/out flying)+ a free up-to-3cmc spell seems like it deserves consideration, or at least a solid denouncement before dismissing it. Though, hard to imagine ever being happy to get that instead of Sorin.
I'll be trying 1 or 2 copies maindeck and see how our engine runs. Given how our deck typically does 1 action/turn, I think there should still be something to "cascade" off of expertise. Lingering souls, anthems and Oath of Gideon are my legal targets, all of which are pretty good deals. I am seriously thinking of splashing G for Nissa Voice. Expertise into Nissa, uptick would be pretty swell.
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So, some things:
1) Smuggler's Copter is way better in the Wescoe build that he proposed with a control build. I tried it in a more conventional BW tokens build and it felt lackluster. The main thing that is missing from both builds is the anthem effect. Gideon by himself is just not enough of an anthem IMO. When we talk about Selfless Spirits vs. Copter, I would say we are talking about two different builds of tokens not which card is better in a vacuum. The whole deck building dynamic just becomes different with it.
2) If we see a rise in Abzan, Zealous Persecution gets way better.
3) Gideon is just better than Delver of Secrets.
4) As I play tested the new Wescoe build, I kept wondering if Fatal Push didn't just make the overall deck better and negate the need for Liliana.
I still like Copter, but it is noticeably weaker to Jund (something he noted). If there is a rise in Tron, I can see that deck combatting it successfully. If you don't want the investment in a new experience though:
Two copies of Godless Shrine should be plenty. Four copies of Fatal Push indicate more fetches any way.
Ghost Quarter and Surgical Extraction are a means of neutering Tron. It's more of a "hail-Mary" than anything else, but extraction and discard can also render many combos inert. Extraction is certainly worth some thought for the side-board.
If Tron is really the main concern, than four copies of FP main-deck is not indicated. Before anyone gets their boxers in a bind, if something else is the main concern, four copies of FP main-deck may well be indicated.
So LOL Friday I went 3-1, lost to Affinity to start the night cause I made at least 2 game ending misplays. Then in the random way Magic can be beat RG Tron 2-0 cause the guys deck decided it didn't want to work at all and he didn't get Tron up until way too late G1 and never saw it G2. I might try a Copter or 2 out since they're coming down though I really want to try the Sword of Light and Shadow I picked up in trade.
New to tokens, and I am on super budget lists due to money. Has anyone ever tried Myth Realized, as a possible card against control/grind matchups? Seems like it could be good if it comes down early and sits there while it gets pumped up by our creatureless deck. It turns some of their removal on sure, but might it not work as a potential sideboard option?
I think it was decided that no further discussions about mardu should be here on BW tokens to keep it focused. The ones want to discuss Mardu has their their own thread.
I think I have my deck set. Sideboard seems tough. Yahenni's Expertise looks really good. We can board wipe and cast Souls (or LotV) and reset. Seems great in a mirror match or some Abzan decks and such.
I think I have my deck set. Sideboard seems tough. Yahenni's Expertise looks really good. We can board wipe and cast Souls (or LotV) and reset. Seems great in a mirror match or some Abzan decks and such.
What are we for sure putting in otherwise?
Yahenni's Expertise looks like a trap to me, especially here, but it might be a side-board-able card. I certainly wouldn't play it unless I thought it were good enough on its own to run and I don't think it is.
I think I have my deck set. Sideboard seems tough. Yahenni's Expertise looks really good. We can board wipe and cast Souls (or LotV) and reset. Seems great in a mirror match or some Abzan decks and such.
What are we for sure putting in otherwise?
Sram's Expertise gets us 3 more tokens, though, without risking wiping our own.
3 tokens (w/out flying)+ a free up-to-3cmc spell seems like it deserves consideration, or at least a solid denouncement before dismissing it. Though, hard to imagine ever being happy to get that instead of Sorin.
I think Sram's could be a big game for us. This thread seems seems a little closed-off to the related archetype of GWb tokens (which I guess is fair since it's a BW tokens thread, but GWb tokens doesn't have a thread and shares a decent portion of the same core build), but I think that's actually its most natural home since you can fairly quickly ramp into enough mana to cast it early and really benefit from the additional tempo advantage it provides. I want to try it in BWg tokens as well, but I'm a bit less confident as the curve is a bit less advantageous, and the cost is higher to running the biggest payoff card, Beck/Call, as we cannot realistically ever hard cast it in BWg Tokens.
If you're interested I'd be happy to post or IM you the decklists I'm considering!
I want to throw my thoughts in. Fatal Push is phenomenal. Definitely running 4 and perhaps even cut to 3 Paths (probably not but maybe).
Hidden stockpile. After testing it, it's not bad but its also not great. I have had a number of games where I've cracked a fetch on T2 and stuck it and then it created a token BUT it will not generate any benefit unless we crack a fetch. There is nothing else that we run that will naturally leave the battlefield on its own. Since it would just replace the token you sac; I would rather run Smugglers Copter or night's whisper.
Also, I'm very excited about the position of this deck however, I have noticed, since the banning. A jump in prices related to tron, all across the board. So though we are in a better spot, they are too.
Okay, gotta throw my input in here. I'm running 2 Fatal Push but it's definitely not a replacement for Path. It's a replacement for Dismember.
Here is the justification for that statement,
1. We run a 2 colour mana base so Revolt is unreliable, it's not fun trying to topdeck a fetch just to kill half of a Finks or kill a Master of Waves.
2. Push is better than Path early game, worse lategame. Lategame there are still a number of threats where you want to Path, Fatal Push doesn't handle things like Reality Smasher, doesn't handle Finks which need handling to stop that combo, doesn't handle Tasigur, doesn't handle Wurmcoil or a number of other things. Push has limitations even though it doesn't seem like it when you're considering all the times it is great like removing Dorks or Goyfs.
3. Continuation from 2, Push is optimised as an early game play, we have a lot of those with Windbrisk, handhate and getting things like our Bitterblossom out.
I think Push is good, but I don't think Push is an automatic 4 of. I'm currently running 4 Path, 2 Push, 1 Zealous with 2 Anguished Unmaking on the sideboard as extra removal. I'm also running 4 IoK, 3 TS main and 3 Duress side.
On Sram's it's fools gold. The tokens don't fly, if I have 4 mana I'm 100% looking for Sorin or a similarly big play like Anthem+Flashback or Anthem+Windbrisk. It also generates tempo but you still spend 2 cards. You spend the free card, and you spend the card to play 3 1/1 non-flying tokens. Card advantage is a big deal and Sram's doesn't generate it, it just lets you flood the board and we have better ways to do that like getting our Bitterblossoms out or flashing back Souls.
Discussions in this thread tend to go around in circles but people regularly forget that two of the best cards in the deck are Windbrisk Heights and Sorin. Windbrisk Heights is 100% a 4 of. It's our card selection, our card advantage and there are times when we're not going to win being an aggro deck, we need to focus on Control, Windbrisk helps both of those routes. Secondly, Sorin is a potentially endless source of 2/2 flying tokens, that's huge, he's also essential for the lifegain and as an extra pseudo-anthem, it speeds up our clock and it lets us compete with faster clocks. You cannot neglect those cards and expect to go 5-0 at decent sized events.
Sorry, but being as polite as I can you're completely wrong.
Moon mainboard is as good as non-existent. Yes, Skred and Blue Moon are decks but go on top8 and find what % of the meta they make up. You don't bring in Moon vs. a 2 colour deck that runs handhate, that's just ridiculous and far more of a liability than a way to hurt Winbrisk.
Secondly, it's not slow or clunky, it fits the curve and does exactly what we want it to. You never run more than 4 ETB tapped lands in any midrange deck. It's a t1 play when you're not using handhate (4 copies windbrisk, 7 copies handhate = high chance of t1 play) or it comes in later game, like t4 alongside a 3 mana play and allows you to capitalise the following turn (with a 2 mana play + activation). One thing it 100% does is stops you flooding out as it makes lategame land pulls useful as you not only get value from pulling it, you can bury land from the top of your deck by playing it.
Windbrisk Heights alongside Souls+Bitterblossom is the heart and soul of the deck. You run tokens because you can use Windbrisk, it's just that good of a card. It always has been. If you're not running it, you're playing the deck wrong or you're playing a different deck entirely. Argue all you want about the role of Vault vs. land-destruction or Westvale, manlands whatever but Windbrisk is BW tokens.
No, it's not BW Tokens. It has been seeing little to no use for months now, Shambling Vent is a better land in most meta, and pretty much everyone afaik cut Windbrisk weeks or months ago. Look at any of the lists posted here, or the lists that have made it high enough to get reported from events, if they even bother running Windbrisk it's a 1 of. BW Tokens hasn't consistently run 4 Windbrisk in years now. An enters tapped land that does nothing but produce white and maybe cast something later is not good with the direction Modern has been going as of late, the meta is too fast and aggressive to risk stumbling on mana due to being forced to play a tapped land. Even 3 enters tapped lands have been risky.
I want to throw my thoughts in. Fatal Push is phenomenal. Definitely running 4 and perhaps even cut to 3 Paths (probably not but maybe).
Hidden stockpile. After testing it, it's not bad but its also not great. I have had a number of games where I've cracked a fetch on T2 and stuck it and then it created a token BUT it will not generate any benefit unless we crack a fetch. There is nothing else that we run that will naturally leave the battlefield on its own. Since it would just replace the token you sac; I would rather run Smugglers Copter or night's whisper.
Also, I'm very excited about the position of this deck however, I have noticed, since the banning. A jump in prices related to tron, all across the board. So though we are in a better spot, they are too.
Okay, gotta throw my input in here. I'm running 2 Fatal Push but it's definitely not a replacement for Path. It's a replacement for Dismember.
Here is the justification for that statement,
1. We run a 2 colour mana base so Revolt is unreliable, it's not fun trying to topdeck a fetch just to kill half of a Finks or kill a Master of Waves.
2. Push is better than Path early game, worse lategame. Lategame there are still a number of threats where you want to Path, Fatal Push doesn't handle things like Reality Smasher, doesn't handle Finks which need handling to stop that combo, doesn't handle Tasigur, doesn't handle Wurmcoil or a number of other things. Push has limitations even though it doesn't seem like it when you're considering all the times it is great like removing Dorks or Goyfs.
3. Continuation from 2, Push is optimised as an early game play, we have a lot of those with Windbrisk, handhate and getting things like our Bitterblossom out.
I think Push is good, but I don't think Push is an automatic 4 of. I'm currently running 4 Path, 2 Push, 1 Zealous with 2 Anguished Unmaking on the sideboard as extra removal. I'm also running 4 IoK, 3 TS main and 3 Duress side.
On Sram's it's fools gold. The tokens don't fly, if I have 4 mana I'm 100% looking for Sorin or a similarly big play like Anthem+Flashback or Anthem+Windbrisk. It also generates tempo but you still spend 2 cards. You spend the free card, and you spend the card to play 3 1/1 non-flying tokens. Card advantage is a big deal and Sram's doesn't generate it, it just lets you flood the board and we have better ways to do that like getting our Bitterblossoms out or flashing back Souls.
Discussions in this thread tend to go around in circles but people regularly forget that two of the best cards in the deck are Windbrisk Heights and Sorin. Windbrisk Heights is 100% a 4 of. It's our card selection, our card advantage and there are times when we're not going to win being an aggro deck, we need to focus on Control, Windbrisk helps both of those routes. Secondly, Sorin is a potentially endless source of 2/2 flying tokens, that's huge, he's also essential for the lifegain and as an extra pseudo-anthem, it speeds up our clock and it lets us compete with faster clocks. You cannot neglect those cards and expect to go 5-0 at decent sized events.
I was 100% on-board until that last paragraph. Windbrisk a four-of? Not in this lifetime.
I'm still on-board with the rest, but I've never had success with Windbrisk and I've long since cut them all.
The deck has always been a meta call, as a meta call vs. Suicide Zoo/Infect, it's a bad one. It works best when slower control decks like Jeskai/Grixis are big and when decks like Jund are big. It handles some aggro like Affinity but it doesn't handle all-in combo style strategies. That's not the fault of Windbrisk, that's the nature of the deck and over-reliance on seeing early handhate/removal and trying to make it stick due to not being the fastest deck around.
Without a way to generate card advantage and be able to look through the top few cards of your deck for what's most relevant you'll lose out in grindy matches where this deck otherwise excels. Shambling Vents is good as a body but it's also boltable and much lower impact than an extra Spectral Procession, or an extra Walker etc. the lifegain from Shambling is fine as well, but 2 life vs. life from Sorin or Timely reinforcements also falls short. Activating Shambling Vents also takes twice as much mana which effects the other plays you can make.
I know what this thread is like which is part of the reason I don't bother posting as arguing online just isn't fun for me. The idea that Windbrisk is obsolete is something I strongly disagree with. In a deck with 24/25 land, you should be able to hit your land on curve without Windbrisk impacting that, it's a t1 play, or a later game play, such as alongside an enchantment t3, alongside a token spell t4 etc. The majority of the time you're not dropping creatures and swinging, there are better decks for just beating your opponent down, you need to think ahead, you need to play a Bitterblossom or play Lingering Souls, play Windbrisk knowing the value will pull through as the game progresses.
Windbrisk is the only decent card draw we have and drawing cards is relevant when you're in a situation where you can't race a deck and need to play Control, even post-board it can help you dig for answers. We run Lingering Souls, Timely Reinforcements, Bitterblossom, Spectral Procession etc. so getting to 3 bodies shouldn't be an issue.
You won't always have a perfect hand and you'll sometimes need to play more than four turns. Serum Visions is an incredibly popular card which would never be if curves just worked by having a perfect draw. You drop Windbrisk as a 1 mana play, similar to how a blue deck would use visions
In the past two comments we've had opposite sides of the spectrum:
"Windbrisk Heights is one of the best cards in the deck and is 100% a 4-of"
"Windbrisk Heights" is borderline unplayable."
I've heard it said that magic players love hyperbole, I guess this is a good example. I tend to lean towards it being quite good but with 4-of being too risky, as it's very bad to have two of your early lands be Windbrisk. I think it makes a great 22nd-23rd or 24th land, as it reduces our chances of mana screw to add it as an extra land while mitigating flood with a land-based source of card selection/advantage. The ability to cheat out an anthem after blockers are declared can be huge as well. The closest analog to a high finish with our archetype is Matt Nass GWb tokens deck that took a top 16 at GP LA last year. He ran 3, and his build was more aggressive than traditional BW tokens builds, making it even more susceptible to tempo loss (but notice he also ran 25 lands, so he's less likely to be forced to play it at a poor time due to lack of other lands in hand on a crucial early turn. He also ramps with creatures so is less punished for playing a tapped land - two reasons I think 3 is more like the max for traditional BW tokens than undercutting the "100% 4-of".) Not sure the meta is so drastically different now from then to turn the card from pretty good to "borderline unplayable"... If there are other comparable decks that placed at some big events I'd certainly be interested and open to revising my opinion, but my point is that blanket declarations on either side of the spectrum are usually pretty far off the mark.
One additional curve consideration is how many black sources you have for your opening hand, as almost all of the BW tokens Turn 1 plays are a single black mana, a number further increased by fatal push. So depending on what other utility lands you play, I think that also limits the cap on Windbrisks you can play without adding to land count.
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Out of Blue, the notable cards we get in the side are cheap specific counterspells (negate, dispel, etc.) and Geist of Saint Traft for the combo matches.
Delver of Secrets can work assuming we take out Bitterblossom for Raise the Alarm. For the anthem, we replace Intangible Virtue with Favorable Winds. Depending on how we build it, we could do a split rather than taking out some of these cards. We should easily be able to reach 26+ instants/ sorceries to turn on Delver. While Delver turns on spot removal, it is a one-mana investment that has the potential to win the game on its back and gives tokens the clock it needs in its unfavorable matches.
Snapcaster Mage is much better with a Fatal Push being printed. It's not a 4-of however as this deck already accumulates long game card advantage. Its late game application with token generation is worth noting though.
Perhaps the central question for me is whether Serum Visions is worth playing in the deck, competing with discard spells. Liliana of the Veil is also probably not the best option for this sort of the deck.
Also throwing in 2 Tasigur/ Angler in.
While I doubt it's worth the 3rd color, it's a fairly interesting idea that I want to test online.
I'll be trying 1 or 2 copies maindeck and see how our engine runs. Given how our deck typically does 1 action/turn, I think there should still be something to "cascade" off of expertise. Lingering souls, anthems and Oath of Gideon are my legal targets, all of which are pretty good deals. I am seriously thinking of splashing G for Nissa Voice. Expertise into Nissa, uptick would be pretty swell.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
1) Smuggler's Copter is way better in the Wescoe build that he proposed with a control build. I tried it in a more conventional BW tokens build and it felt lackluster. The main thing that is missing from both builds is the anthem effect. Gideon by himself is just not enough of an anthem IMO. When we talk about Selfless Spirits vs. Copter, I would say we are talking about two different builds of tokens not which card is better in a vacuum. The whole deck building dynamic just becomes different with it.
2) If we see a rise in Abzan, Zealous Persecution gets way better.
3) Gideon is just better than Delver of Secrets.
4) As I play tested the new Wescoe build, I kept wondering if Fatal Push didn't just make the overall deck better and negate the need for Liliana.
I still like Copter, but it is noticeably weaker to Jund (something he noted). If there is a rise in Tron, I can see that deck combatting it successfully. If you don't want the investment in a new experience though:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Swamp
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
4 Bitterblossom
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Spectral Procession
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
Side:
3 Fulminator Mage
Playtesting in the past has shown this build is also pretty resilient and betters the tron matchup to maybe 40-60 pre and post board.
Ghost Quarter and Surgical Extraction are a means of neutering Tron. It's more of a "hail-Mary" than anything else, but extraction and discard can also render many combos inert. Extraction is certainly worth some thought for the side-board.
If Tron is really the main concern, than four copies of FP main-deck is not indicated. Before anyone gets their boxers in a bind, if something else is the main concern, four copies of FP main-deck may well be indicated.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
What are we for sure putting in otherwise?
Yahenni's Expertise looks like a trap to me, especially here, but it might be a side-board-able card. I certainly wouldn't play it unless I thought it were good enough on its own to run and I don't think it is.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Sram's Expertise gets us 3 more tokens, though, without risking wiping our own.
I think Sram's could be a big game for us. This thread seems seems a little closed-off to the related archetype of GWb tokens (which I guess is fair since it's a BW tokens thread, but GWb tokens doesn't have a thread and shares a decent portion of the same core build), but I think that's actually its most natural home since you can fairly quickly ramp into enough mana to cast it early and really benefit from the additional tempo advantage it provides. I want to try it in BWg tokens as well, but I'm a bit less confident as the curve is a bit less advantageous, and the cost is higher to running the biggest payoff card, Beck/Call, as we cannot realistically ever hard cast it in BWg Tokens.
If you're interested I'd be happy to post or IM you the decklists I'm considering!
Okay, gotta throw my input in here. I'm running 2 Fatal Push but it's definitely not a replacement for Path. It's a replacement for Dismember.
Here is the justification for that statement,
1. We run a 2 colour mana base so Revolt is unreliable, it's not fun trying to topdeck a fetch just to kill half of a Finks or kill a Master of Waves.
2. Push is better than Path early game, worse lategame. Lategame there are still a number of threats where you want to Path, Fatal Push doesn't handle things like Reality Smasher, doesn't handle Finks which need handling to stop that combo, doesn't handle Tasigur, doesn't handle Wurmcoil or a number of other things. Push has limitations even though it doesn't seem like it when you're considering all the times it is great like removing Dorks or Goyfs.
3. Continuation from 2, Push is optimised as an early game play, we have a lot of those with Windbrisk, handhate and getting things like our Bitterblossom out.
I think Push is good, but I don't think Push is an automatic 4 of. I'm currently running 4 Path, 2 Push, 1 Zealous with 2 Anguished Unmaking on the sideboard as extra removal. I'm also running 4 IoK, 3 TS main and 3 Duress side.
On Sram's it's fools gold. The tokens don't fly, if I have 4 mana I'm 100% looking for Sorin or a similarly big play like Anthem+Flashback or Anthem+Windbrisk. It also generates tempo but you still spend 2 cards. You spend the free card, and you spend the card to play 3 1/1 non-flying tokens. Card advantage is a big deal and Sram's doesn't generate it, it just lets you flood the board and we have better ways to do that like getting our Bitterblossoms out or flashing back Souls.
Discussions in this thread tend to go around in circles but people regularly forget that two of the best cards in the deck are Windbrisk Heights and Sorin. Windbrisk Heights is 100% a 4 of. It's our card selection, our card advantage and there are times when we're not going to win being an aggro deck, we need to focus on Control, Windbrisk helps both of those routes. Secondly, Sorin is a potentially endless source of 2/2 flying tokens, that's huge, he's also essential for the lifegain and as an extra pseudo-anthem, it speeds up our clock and it lets us compete with faster clocks. You cannot neglect those cards and expect to go 5-0 at decent sized events.
Moon mainboard is as good as non-existent. Yes, Skred and Blue Moon are decks but go on top8 and find what % of the meta they make up. You don't bring in Moon vs. a 2 colour deck that runs handhate, that's just ridiculous and far more of a liability than a way to hurt Winbrisk.
Secondly, it's not slow or clunky, it fits the curve and does exactly what we want it to. You never run more than 4 ETB tapped lands in any midrange deck. It's a t1 play when you're not using handhate (4 copies windbrisk, 7 copies handhate = high chance of t1 play) or it comes in later game, like t4 alongside a 3 mana play and allows you to capitalise the following turn (with a 2 mana play + activation). One thing it 100% does is stops you flooding out as it makes lategame land pulls useful as you not only get value from pulling it, you can bury land from the top of your deck by playing it.
Windbrisk Heights alongside Souls+Bitterblossom is the heart and soul of the deck. You run tokens because you can use Windbrisk, it's just that good of a card. It always has been. If you're not running it, you're playing the deck wrong or you're playing a different deck entirely. Argue all you want about the role of Vault vs. land-destruction or Westvale, manlands whatever but Windbrisk is BW tokens.
I was 100% on-board until that last paragraph. Windbrisk a four-of? Not in this lifetime.
I'm still on-board with the rest, but I've never had success with Windbrisk and I've long since cut them all.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Without a way to generate card advantage and be able to look through the top few cards of your deck for what's most relevant you'll lose out in grindy matches where this deck otherwise excels. Shambling Vents is good as a body but it's also boltable and much lower impact than an extra Spectral Procession, or an extra Walker etc. the lifegain from Shambling is fine as well, but 2 life vs. life from Sorin or Timely reinforcements also falls short. Activating Shambling Vents also takes twice as much mana which effects the other plays you can make.
I know what this thread is like which is part of the reason I don't bother posting as arguing online just isn't fun for me. The idea that Windbrisk is obsolete is something I strongly disagree with. In a deck with 24/25 land, you should be able to hit your land on curve without Windbrisk impacting that, it's a t1 play, or a later game play, such as alongside an enchantment t3, alongside a token spell t4 etc. The majority of the time you're not dropping creatures and swinging, there are better decks for just beating your opponent down, you need to think ahead, you need to play a Bitterblossom or play Lingering Souls, play Windbrisk knowing the value will pull through as the game progresses.
Windbrisk is the only decent card draw we have and drawing cards is relevant when you're in a situation where you can't race a deck and need to play Control, even post-board it can help you dig for answers. We run Lingering Souls, Timely Reinforcements, Bitterblossom, Spectral Procession etc. so getting to 3 bodies shouldn't be an issue.
"Windbrisk Heights is one of the best cards in the deck and is 100% a 4-of"
"Windbrisk Heights" is borderline unplayable."
I've heard it said that magic players love hyperbole, I guess this is a good example. I tend to lean towards it being quite good but with 4-of being too risky, as it's very bad to have two of your early lands be Windbrisk. I think it makes a great 22nd-23rd or 24th land, as it reduces our chances of mana screw to add it as an extra land while mitigating flood with a land-based source of card selection/advantage. The ability to cheat out an anthem after blockers are declared can be huge as well. The closest analog to a high finish with our archetype is Matt Nass GWb tokens deck that took a top 16 at GP LA last year. He ran 3, and his build was more aggressive than traditional BW tokens builds, making it even more susceptible to tempo loss (but notice he also ran 25 lands, so he's less likely to be forced to play it at a poor time due to lack of other lands in hand on a crucial early turn. He also ramps with creatures so is less punished for playing a tapped land - two reasons I think 3 is more like the max for traditional BW tokens than undercutting the "100% 4-of".) Not sure the meta is so drastically different now from then to turn the card from pretty good to "borderline unplayable"... If there are other comparable decks that placed at some big events I'd certainly be interested and open to revising my opinion, but my point is that blanket declarations on either side of the spectrum are usually pretty far off the mark.
One additional curve consideration is how many black sources you have for your opening hand, as almost all of the BW tokens Turn 1 plays are a single black mana, a number further increased by fatal push. So depending on what other utility lands you play, I think that also limits the cap on Windbrisks you can play without adding to land count.