Unless Eldrazi and Titanshift is a big part of your meta, there is no reason not to,run 4 of these. Add 1-2 two mana removals if you really need to kill more fatties...
4 Path + 4 Push? Seems overkill.
Definitely overkill, I think you should just shave 1-2 Murderous Cut for 1-2 Push.
So you guys advocate running a mere 6 removals total? Are we not playing in the same meta or the same deck? Seriously I am curious what lists you guys are running. Jund runs 12 (16 if you count Liliana of the Veil, which you should) removals to give you bit of a perspective and they run far better defensive creatures.
BW Tokens is literally craving more removals. We run 11-13 threats, 4 anthems, couple planeswalkers, and the rest should be dedicated to lands and control elements. Because we don't stabilize the board quickly, it desperately needs control elements in the form of removals especially in the early game. It's the main reason why Sorin Solemn Visitor is now a staple in this deck because this deck has a tendency to lag behind but Sorin cushions your life total dramatically. I remember the good old days when people doubted how good Sorin was and it only took a few testing to illustrate a flaw in their evaluation.
It doesn't take a genius to realize 4 Fatal Push has to be a staple in this deck. That's like playing Jund with 2 Lightning Bolt.
I was actually at work, so didn't have much time to actually think carefully before making that statement. My bad on that. But now that I'm home, it makes sense to play a playset of Fatal Push. Although Eldrazi is a big part of my meta, hence why I also initially thought a playset would be too much.
The card is awesome. What would your list look like with them? What do you take out?
Now that I think about it, Fatal Push is basically a superior version of smother, and that is already a good card.
For the mana base, we probably should run 8 fetches. But we also want turn 1 dual land so 4 concealed courtyard just got even better. 3 shambling vents puts us to 15 lands. 3 plains and 1 swamp puts us to 19. The other four can be combinations of ghost quarters, filter lands, or vault of the archangel depending on how you want to build the deck. We have a lower curve with Push in our deck so I think we can manage 23 lands.
Now that I think about it, Fatal Push is basically a superior version of smother, and that is already a good card.
For the mana base, we probably should run 8 fetches. But we also want turn 1 dual land so 4 concealed courtyard just got even better. 3 shambling vents puts us to 15 lands. 3 plains and 1 swamp puts us to 19. The other four can be combinations of ghost quarters, filter lands, or vault of the archangel depending on how you want to build the deck. We have a lower curve with Push in our deck so I think we can manage 23 lands.
Would not cut Brutality for Push. If you all want to play 8 pure removelspells it would be nice to dump them into Brutality or Liliana the time they are dead cards.
Dead how? The point is that both removals are flexible and relevant against any decks that run creatures, at ANY stage of the game.
Collective Brutality is an okay card. Its biggest downside is that it's sorcery speed. If you are on the play, you essentially have to use up your turn 3 to kill something (-2/-2 is not bad, but much narrower than other kill spells) and it cannot kill manlands. Fantastic card against Burn and match-ups where we want additional discard spells but it's really not as versatile as it looks. There are too many matches where none of its effects are relevant. The only deck I would play it in would be GB Tron, where its weakest match-ups are Blue Scapeshift, Burn, and Infect.
Sram's Expertise fits in with Sisters more then us I think. Though the idea of using it along Midnight Haunting isn't the worst thing. Seems a bit slow and we're loaded at 4. I use 4 PW's there, not sure what else I'd cut. Especially now with Push being an auto 2-4 of. Things are getting tighter, which is good. That means the deck is too.
Hey Guys, the exitement of recent spoilers made me create an account here. I'm sorry If my formatting or anything else is off!
Anyway i've been playing b/w tokens quite a long time in a infect & affinity heavy meta. I think I'll be main / sideboarding the new expertise to have colorless tokens to block Etched Champion.
How will "Fatal Push" affect your sideboards? Can we run less affinity hate?
For Etched Champion, there are probably more versatile options. Runed Halo is very good turning off multiple champions for instance. Flaying Tendrils is colorless so it can also hit Etched Champions as a last resort, as well as being relevant in many other match-ups.
I would run at least 1-2 zealous persecution in an affinity heavy meta for sure but generally you shouldn't have to prepare too much for affinity.
I would personally cut down on the planeswalkers and go back up on the Spectral Procession. I used to do a heavy PW-build but my experience is you never want more than 1 copy in your opening hand. I try to cap it at 3 four-drops like most Jund builds.
4 Liliana felt a bit unnecessary from testing but I definitely liked both 2/ 3 copies. I could also say the same for 4 Spectral Procession. Perhaps room can be made for more removals/ Raise the Alarm / etc.
Maybe cut down a shockland or two.
But overall I have to say this is very close to what I'd consider a perfect template for BW Tokens currently.
Shambling Vent? Interesting that I just noticed people are playing this. I figured you were better off with just making sure you put Tokens down every turn. What's it's use? Why are we using him? (serious question, very curious! Always looking to amp up my game)
Shambling Vent? Interesting that I just noticed people are playing this. I figured you were better off with just making sure you put Tokens down every turn. What's it's use? Why are we using him? (serious question, very curious! Always looking to amp up my game)
And is no one playing Raise the Alarm anymore?
Vent is what it is, a WB Manland. It's good in most matchups, provides lifegain, dodges sorcery speed removal, and helps grind. Entering tapped is an annoyance but running 2-3 is worth it.
Yeah not many are running RtA anymore, yes it's faster board presence but it lacks any of the staying power of Bitterblossom in long games. It's definitely playable in addition to, but not a good replacement for BB.
@jongsl5: I have to say I definitely agree with your last post, I personally don't run LotV but that's just cause I don't have them or the spare ~$180-200 to buy 2. I'm running 2/2 split of Gideon/Sorin but I definitely wouldn't go above that number of 4cmc cards. Otherwise my current list is pretty similar to that one.
@Mirage King: I'd say cutting a Godless Shrine is a correct suggestion, I run 2 of them since adding Courtyard which seems correct. I'd also suggest going up to 8 fetchlands to increase the reliability of Fatal Push.
I would personally cut down on the planeswalkers and go back up on the Spectral Procession. I used to do a heavy PW-build but my experience is you never want more than 1 copy in your opening hand. I try to cap it at 3 four-drops like most Jund builds.
4 Liliana felt a bit unnecessary from testing but I definitely liked both 2/ 3 copies. I could also say the same for 4 Spectral Procession. Perhaps room can be made for more removals/ Raise the Alarm / etc.
Maybe cut down a shockland or two.
But overall I have to say this is very close to what I'd consider a perfect template for BW Tokens currently.
I was actually considering cutting a Spectral lol. I may go down a shockland for a fetch.
Shambling Vent? Interesting that I just noticed people are playing this. I figured you were better off with just making sure you put Tokens down every turn. What's it's use? Why are we using him? (serious question, very curious! Always looking to amp up my game)
And is no one playing Raise the Alarm anymore?
Vent is what it is, a WB Manland. It's good in most matchups, provides lifegain, dodges sorcery speed removal, and helps grind. Entering tapped is an annoyance but running 2-3 is worth it.
Yeah not many are running RtA anymore, yes it's faster board presence but it lacks any of the staying power of Bitterblossom in long games. It's definitely playable in addition to, but not a good replacement for BB.
@jongsl5: I have to say I definitely agree with your last post, I personally don't run LotV but that's just cause I don't have them or the spare ~$180-200 to buy 2. I'm running 2/2 split of Gideon/Sorin but I definitely wouldn't go above that number of 4cmc cards. Otherwise my current list is pretty similar to that one.
@Mirage King: I'd say cutting a Godless Shrine is a correct suggestion, I run 2 of them since adding Courtyard which seems correct. I'd also suggest going up to 8 fetchlands to increase the reliability of Fatal Push.
Will check on it. Also what do you believe is better SB card? Timely Reinforcements or Blessed Alliance? Or is the correct answer to run both SB?
I will be playing 4 path and 4 push after AER, no questions asked. This is our bolt, finally. I can hit that sickening t1 guide or glistener without pushing the opponent ahead. 8 removals is NOT too much for this deck. How have you been surviving infect at all with 6? Before Push it was 4 path, 2 dismembers, 1 cut and 1 smother. Yes, Push is a bloody godsend for me.
Sram's expertise is going to be a staple, just not as a 4 of. 4 mana for 3 tokens and also an anthem, spectral procession or removal? Why not? It raises our curve, but now with better removals I actually feel more confident about reaching 4 on the curve.
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I will be playing 4 path and 4 push after AER, no questions asked. This is our bolt, finally. I can hit that sickening t1 guide or glistener without pushing the opponent ahead. 8 removals is NOT too much for this deck. How have you been surviving infect at all with 6? Before Push it was 4 path, 2 dismembers, 1 cut and 1 smother. Yes, Push is a bloody godsend for me.
Sram's expertise is going to be a staple, just not as a 4 of. 4 mana for 3 tokens and also an anthem, spectral procession or removal? Why not? It raises our curve, but now with better removals I actually feel more confident about reaching 4 on the curve.
Push is also very good against all the decks we struggle with: elves, merfolk, burn, zoo variants, etc. It's icing on the cake that it's also superb against opposing BGx decks. I do feel a bit uneasy about Grixis but we have 4 Path to Exile already.
Sram's expertise is mostly a tempo advantage. We really can't afford to run more than 4 four-mana cards at all, as we do not want to weaken the opening hand. And the four-mana slot should be dedicated to cards that can single-handedly take over the game, like Sorin or Gideon.
Shambling Vent? Interesting that I just noticed people are playing this. I figured you were better off with just making sure you put Tokens down every turn. What's it's use? Why are we using him? (serious question, very curious! Always looking to amp up my game)
And is no one playing Raise the Alarm anymore?
Yes but you are not always in a position to make tokens. Almost any manlands (even the terrible ones) see play precisely because things don't go according to plan and these back-up sources of card advantage can shift the game in your favor. Most people don't realize how relevant the lifegain is until they play with it - I was one of them.
I play 1 RtA and 3 Bitterblossom. So far, it's been fantastic. Raise the Alarm is good early game, late game, and can serve as removals. The probability of drawing 1 BB copy is not substantial between 3 vs 4 copies and I'd rather limit my chances of drawing multiples as the game progresses.
@Dhamlim Hopefully they do a reprinting of Liliana. It really should not be more than $50 each, no matter how good it is.
This deck benefits quite a bit even from 2 copies.
@Mirage King Tough to say. Against Burn, the difference between 4 life and 6 life is huge. But Blessed Alliance is instant speed and can take down a creature - over the life gain - if necessary. I would say this conditional choice makes Blessed Alliance a better card specifically for Burn. I also find Blessed Alliance is more versatile elsewhere. I no longer run the card because I have more important things to add to the deck but given the choice, would pick Blessed Alliance.
Wondering myself if 6 1 mana discard spells are still needed with Push. Sure Discard is useful but we also had to play it cause there was no useful first turn play. I would try now 4 Path, 3-4 Push (3 Push and 1 Cut, still like the idea just killing every creature), 1 Inquisiton, 3 Thoughtseize (can pick every card and without playing Dismember, the life loss is ok) and 2 Brutality. So you have 10 spot removel and 6 discard spells All other Slots go too Anthem, Persecution and token generators.
I'll be running 8 removal (4x Path, Push), 6 discard (4x IoK, 2x Seize), 1 Brutality, and 1 Zealous.
Another 2CMC Enchantment that can create dudes even the turn it comes down if you fetch to play it (because as far as I can tell this card doesn't need to SEE the permanent leave the battlefield). I might be mistaken but I don't think I am.
PLUS this gives us a relevant way to dig and if you sac a token it will just replace itself at the end step; unfortunately it doesn't work on our opponents end step but I still like it. This plus Fatal Push seem like they could make the deck a bit better.
The card is awesome. What would your list look like with them? What do you take out?
For the mana base, we probably should run 8 fetches. But we also want turn 1 dual land so 4 concealed courtyard just got even better. 3 shambling vents puts us to 15 lands. 3 plains and 1 swamp puts us to 19. The other four can be combinations of ghost quarters, filter lands, or vault of the archangel depending on how you want to build the deck. We have a lower curve with Push in our deck so I think we can manage 23 lands.
For the mana base, we probably should run 8 fetches. But we also want turn 1 dual land so 4 concealed courtyard just got even better. 3 shambling vents puts us to 15 lands. 3 plains and 1 swamp puts us to 19. The other four can be combinations of ghost quarters, filter lands, or vault of the archangel depending on how you want to build the deck. We have a lower curve with Push in our deck so I think we can manage 23 lands.
Dead how? The point is that both removals are flexible and relevant against any decks that run creatures, at ANY stage of the game.
Collective Brutality is an okay card. Its biggest downside is that it's sorcery speed. If you are on the play, you essentially have to use up your turn 3 to kill something (-2/-2 is not bad, but much narrower than other kill spells) and it cannot kill manlands. Fantastic card against Burn and match-ups where we want additional discard spells but it's really not as versatile as it looks. There are too many matches where none of its effects are relevant. The only deck I would play it in would be GB Tron, where its weakest match-ups are Blue Scapeshift, Burn, and Infect.
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Curse Premium4x Bitterblossom
1x Concealed Courtyard
1x Dismember
2x Fetid Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Godless Shrine
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Lingering Souls
4x Marsh Flats
4x Path to Exile
3x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Spectral Procession
2x Swamp
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Windswept Heath
1x Zealous Persecution
3x Duress
2x Mark of Asylum
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Sundering Growth
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Wrath of God
1x Zealous Persecution
Sram's Expertise way to situational to merit more than 1 mb. Fewer Paths than Fush, might even keep Dismember sb for those pesky pump decks...
For Etched Champion, there are probably more versatile options. Runed Halo is very good turning off multiple champions for instance. Flaying Tendrils is colorless so it can also hit Etched Champions as a last resort, as well as being relevant in many other match-ups.
I would run at least 1-2 zealous persecution in an affinity heavy meta for sure but generally you shouldn't have to prepare too much for affinity.
2x Fetid Heath
2x Flooded Strand
3x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Intangible Virtue
4x Bitterblossom
4x Lingering Souls
2x Spectral Procession
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
I would personally cut down on the planeswalkers and go back up on the Spectral Procession. I used to do a heavy PW-build but my experience is you never want more than 1 copy in your opening hand. I try to cap it at 3 four-drops like most Jund builds.
4 Liliana felt a bit unnecessary from testing but I definitely liked both 2/ 3 copies. I could also say the same for 4 Spectral Procession. Perhaps room can be made for more removals/ Raise the Alarm / etc.
Maybe cut down a shockland or two.
But overall I have to say this is very close to what I'd consider a perfect template for BW Tokens currently.
And is no one playing Raise the Alarm anymore?
Vent is what it is, a WB Manland. It's good in most matchups, provides lifegain, dodges sorcery speed removal, and helps grind. Entering tapped is an annoyance but running 2-3 is worth it.
Yeah not many are running RtA anymore, yes it's faster board presence but it lacks any of the staying power of Bitterblossom in long games. It's definitely playable in addition to, but not a good replacement for BB.
@jongsl5: I have to say I definitely agree with your last post, I personally don't run LotV but that's just cause I don't have them or the spare ~$180-200 to buy 2. I'm running 2/2 split of Gideon/Sorin but I definitely wouldn't go above that number of 4cmc cards. Otherwise my current list is pretty similar to that one.
@Mirage King: I'd say cutting a Godless Shrine is a correct suggestion, I run 2 of them since adding Courtyard which seems correct. I'd also suggest going up to 8 fetchlands to increase the reliability of Fatal Push.
I was actually considering cutting a Spectral
Will check on it. Also what do you believe is better SB card? Timely Reinforcements or Blessed Alliance? Or is the correct answer to run both SB?
Sram's expertise is going to be a staple, just not as a 4 of. 4 mana for 3 tokens and also an anthem, spectral procession or removal? Why not? It raises our curve, but now with better removals I actually feel more confident about reaching 4 on the curve.
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Push is also very good against all the decks we struggle with: elves, merfolk, burn, zoo variants, etc. It's icing on the cake that it's also superb against opposing BGx decks. I do feel a bit uneasy about Grixis but we have 4 Path to Exile already.
Sram's expertise is mostly a tempo advantage. We really can't afford to run more than 4 four-mana cards at all, as we do not want to weaken the opening hand. And the four-mana slot should be dedicated to cards that can single-handedly take over the game, like Sorin or Gideon.
Yes but you are not always in a position to make tokens. Almost any manlands (even the terrible ones) see play precisely because things don't go according to plan and these back-up sources of card advantage can shift the game in your favor. Most people don't realize how relevant the lifegain is until they play with it - I was one of them.
I play 1 RtA and 3 Bitterblossom. So far, it's been fantastic. Raise the Alarm is good early game, late game, and can serve as removals. The probability of drawing 1 BB copy is not substantial between 3 vs 4 copies and I'd rather limit my chances of drawing multiples as the game progresses.
This deck benefits quite a bit even from 2 copies.
@Mirage King Tough to say. Against Burn, the difference between 4 life and 6 life is huge. But Blessed Alliance is instant speed and can take down a creature - over the life gain - if necessary. I would say this conditional choice makes Blessed Alliance a better card specifically for Burn. I also find Blessed Alliance is more versatile elsewhere. I no longer run the card because I have more important things to add to the deck but given the choice, would pick Blessed Alliance.
I'll be running 8 removal (4x Path, Push), 6 discard (4x IoK, 2x Seize), 1 Brutality, and 1 Zealous.
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Another 2CMC Enchantment that can create dudes even the turn it comes down if you fetch to play it (because as far as I can tell this card doesn't need to SEE the permanent leave the battlefield). I might be mistaken but I don't think I am.
PLUS this gives us a relevant way to dig and if you sac a token it will just replace itself at the end step; unfortunately it doesn't work on our opponents end step but I still like it. This plus Fatal Push seem like they could make the deck a bit better.
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