It's important to note how the interaction between Displacer and Master of Waves can absolutely backfire. If you blink their Master, you will trigger it's enter-the-battlefield ability for more tokens, but the originals won't die. State-based actions don't check during resolutions of things; they will only check once a player has priority again (once the entire blink is complete). The game will still see MoW, and all of the tokens (more than before you blinked it!) will stick around.
Yeah its awful against Master of Waves but you can at least hit his tokens to kill them for good (though that isn't the best plan). It's still very good for a 3 mana negate an attacker every turn. I still don't think it's the best though. Displacer has just gotten outclassed by the other spells we are getting.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 11 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 10 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
I count 11 4 Cave, 4 temple, 2 GQ, 1 Vault but I am with you in thinking.... I am probably going to cut out my fetches altogether. Here is my future landbase (most likely, it does keep changing)
It might just be that the mana is going to be sketchy no matter what.
At least we finally have something to slot in the 4, but we probably can't run much more than that (so sad about Reality Smasher) for precisely this reason, so the change in this deck would likely be pretty gentle and minimal:
Just cut 2 3cmc threats, a 6cmc threat, and a discard spell for 4 TKS, and added a couple Warping Wail in place of other removal because that's my jam, but honestly it might just be too much for this poor, crappy mana base.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 11 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
This is true. Because there are not WC or BC duals, fetches, or fetch targets, the mana base gets stretched extremely thin. I would probably lose one Swamp for a Wastes so I have another basic to fetch off GQ, Path, or Map, helping my colorless sources but weakening my colored sources.
The colorless-matters OGW cards are going to put extreme demands on the manabase and may prove to make Oath cards untenable in a B/x/C build.
It might just be that the mana is going to be sketchy no matter what.
At least we finally have something to slot in the 4, but we probably can't run much more than that (so sad about Reality Smasher) for precisely this reason, so the change in this deck would likely be pretty gentle and minimal:
Just cut 2 3cmc threats, a 6cmc threat, and a discard spell for 4 TKS, and added a couple Warping Wail in place of other removal because that's my jam, but honestly it might just be too much for this poor, crappy mana base.
I don't think I am going to cut Reality Smasher completely. I didn't like the mainboarded Slaughter Pact and would trim the Oblivion Sowers by 1 so your creature base is:
Also I have REALLY like Vault of the Archangel and think it deserves a spot. It's just SO good with Lingering Souls and Blight Herder tokens. Also remember that with Reality Smasher it only does 1 to the blocker and then tramples over for the rest.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 11 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
This is true. Because there are not WC or BC duals, fetches, or fetch targets, the mana base gets stretched extremely thin. I would probably lose one Swamp for a Wastes so I have another basic to fetch off GQ, Path, or Map, helping my colorless sources but weakening my colored sources.
The colorless-matters OGW cards are going to put extreme demands on the manabase and may prove to make Oath cards untenable in a B/x/C build.
You mean just in case of a Blood Moon you'd run a Waste? I can see the sense in that.. was just wondering. (you can also path your own spirit token to get there as well if needed. Rare occurance but sometimes it happens.)
I don't think I am going to cut Reality Smasher completely. I didn't like the mainboarded Slaughter Pact and would trim the Oblivion Sowers by 1 so your creature base is:
Also I have REALLY like Vault of the Archangel and think it deserves a spot. It's just SO good with Lingering Souls and Blight Herder tokens. Also remember that with Reality Smasher it only does 1 to the blocker and then tramples over for the rest.
Obviously I'd like to run Reality Smasher and Vault if I could, but <> mana for Smasher is just so hard and I can't identify any land in the mana base that I just posted that I would cut for Vault without making the situation with colored sources even worse. Maybe the 2nd GQ? But that card is so good!
My personal preference is to play it safe when I'm not sure what to do. But your tolerance for risk might be different
You mean just in case of a Blood Moon you'd run a Waste? I can see the sense in that.. was just wondering. (you can also path your own spirit token to get there as well if needed. Rare occurance but sometimes it happens.)
I don't think I am going to cut Reality Smasher completely. I didn't like the mainboarded Slaughter Pact and would trim the Oblivion Sowers by 1 so your creature base is:
Also I have REALLY like Vault of the Archangel and think it deserves a spot. It's just SO good with Lingering Souls and Blight Herder tokens. Also remember that with Reality Smasher it only does 1 to the blocker and then tramples over for the rest.
Obviously I'd like to run Reality Smasher and Vault if I could, but <> mana for Smasher is just so hard and I can't identify any land in the mana base that I just posted that I would cut for Vault without making the situation with colored sources even worse. Maybe the 2nd GQ? But that card is so good!
My personal preference is to play it safe when I'm not sure what to do. But your tolerance for risk might be different
The answer is the Fetch Lands... I don't think they are going to be needed. Replace 3 of them with Godless Shrines and 1 with a Vault.
This deck looks like it plays a lot like Jund. Does it? I'm after a deck that plays like Jund, but isn't Jund (long story short, Jund isn't how it use to be when I started Modern)
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 10 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
I count 11 4 Cave, 4 temple, 2 GQ, 1 Vault but I am with you in thinking.... I am probably going to cut out my fetches altogether. Here is my future landbase (most likely, it does keep changing)
I don't like the idea of cutting Marsh Flats entirely, but I could appreciate reducing the numbers to 2-3 to accommodate a 1-off Wastes.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
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Decks I play:
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Your color balance is super-low to cast B and W spells early. You need many dual sources and few mono-W or B (or C!). Post-Oath, Caves of Koilos will a mandatory 4-of. I agree that Strangler is too conditional and I run 3 MB Spellskites, which are such a surprise, and so strong (fetch off Eye!).
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Caves will need to be a 4 of. It'll be in the lists for sure but if you've read Frank Karsten "How Many Colored Mana Sources Do You Need to Consistently Cast Your Spells?" article you should be money. Below is my list that I'll be playing in a 2k a day after oath drops.
This deck has 14 , a virtual 16 when you factor in relic and map, 14 being the magic number for 90% turn 1 black source for disruption. Also it has both 10 & sources 12 with map and relic, which puts it right on curve for T3 souls and slightly below for T2 warping wail and path.
There is a cost to cutting basic lands, especially now where ghost quarter is in a lot of decks, you want to have some resistance to GQ, PtE and have the ability to both draw and fetch them with map post blood moon. Blood moon isn't back breaking against this deck like bloom or tron because our threats come down earlier and are often colorless but it still slows us down a bit. You should keep in mind this deck plays in a similar style to pre ban jund with BBE with tron level threats. Tron is moving to two basics in the current meta because of the amount of GQ and PtE we should respect that and adjust accordingly 3-4 feels right and insulates us from GQ and PtE.
Have you tested seagate? this is a midrange deck that grinds, you will often be left card less, sea gate is gas. Vault is a great card but its better suited if you're going to include Timely in the board. 3 MD GQ means the probability of having it on T3 against tron is nearly 43% thats not taking into account map activations, bumping GQ to 4 MD your probability goes up to nearly 10% to me it isn't worth adding additional GQ for that match up in particular when Sea gate (or vault) would be better served in that spot.
I disagree with you on Tendrills, You shouldn't be brining this card in against decks like Zoo, its there from tokens, elves and merfolk. Shambling Vents is what gives this deck a fair match up against Zoo and Burn, from reading your comments I have a hard time believing you've actually tested this list or cards out extensively, if you haven't thats fine, but you're theory crafting. I strongly encourage you to go and watch Magus or Watchwolf's streams because they're playing incredibly similar lists and consistently putting up results with cards you've brought into question.
As for EE over Ratchet bomb, in what world are you getting EE to 3? more often you're playing EE for sunburst 0 and best case scenario if need be sacing on 2, bomb fufills the same role with offering much more upside., the only difference is if you're sunbursting for 1 and sacing on 2, your a turn behind with bomb; but again upside, I make that trade off everyday and twice on sunday. EE is a great cards but ratchet bomb is better suited in this deck for its utility and upside.
Shambling Vents is what gives this deck a fair match up against Zoo and Burn
Is this true? I've never actually played with this card, but in that role, it seems weak on the surface. It can't trade with any of the Zoo creatures and the activation is so expensive (i.e. activating it on turns 4-5 probably means you aren't playing any Eldrazi that turn). Could you elaborate a little?
I would not play 3 shambling vents. One is plenty. It's not like you'll spend 9 mana plus 3 lands to attack with it.
The Vault + creatures has won me more games than I had a right to (especially against zoo as they can't just alpha strike you).
I'm starting to think about branching outside of white into either green or blue. Blue gives us a cute card in delay, which can be a hard counter for all intents and purposes. That card would give us better game vs Tron. The green would give us: Maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay, golgari charm, putrefy and plenty of answers to affinity. I think the green would make the blood moon matches a heck of a lot better. I know this is technically not the thread for it but I am really wondering if b/w is the best combination the deck can have.
I wish the magic community here was a bit better so that i could play test to the death and report but alas...guess we'll have to wait until the pro tour!
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Your color balance is super-low to cast B and W spells early. You need many dual sources and few mono-W or B (or C!). Post-Oath, Caves of Koilos will a mandatory 4-of. I agree that Strangler is too conditional and I run 3 MB Spellskites, which are such a surprise, and so strong (fetch off Eye!).
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Caves will need to be a 4 of. It'll be in the lists for sure but if you've read Frank Karsten "How Many Colored Mana Sources Do You Need to Consistently Cast Your Spells?" article you should be money. Below is my list that I'll be playing in a 2k a day after oath drops.
This deck has 14 , a virtual 16 when you factor in relic and map, 14 being the magic number for 90% turn 1 black source for disruption. Also it has both 10 & sources 12 with map and relic, which puts it right on curve for T3 souls and slightly below for T2 warping wail and path.
You have only 10 T1 B sources, though. 2x Caves instead of 2x Vent would get you to 12.
I would not play 3 shambling vents. One is plenty. It's not like you'll spend 9 mana plus 3 lands to attack with it.
The Vault + creatures has won me more games than I had a right to (especially against zoo as they can't just alpha strike you).
I'm starting to think about branching outside of white into either green or blue. Blue gives us a cute card in delay, which can be a hard counter for all intents and purposes. That card would give us better game vs Tron. The green would give us: Maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay, golgari charm, putrefy and plenty of answers to affinity. I think the green would make the blood moon matches a heck of a lot better. I know this is technically not the thread for it but I am really wondering if b/w is the best combination the deck can have.
I wish the magic community here was a bit better so that i could play test to the death and report but alas...guess we'll have to wait until the pro tour!
I have played every BGx deck there is extensively over the last five years, and I can tell you that none of those green cards is particularly good versus Affinity. In fact, I side out Maelstrom Pulse a lot of the time versus them. Abrupt Decay is great versus the Blood Moon decks, though, this is true.
As for Shambling Vents, I think the point is that you want to naturally draw it versus the aggro decks instead of having to break a Map for it. I agree that 3 is a lot, though. I'd want to be sure that that card is actually great before burdening my mana with a tapped land like that.
Yeah its awful against Master of Waves but you can at least hit his tokens to kill them for good (though that isn't the best plan). It's still very good for a 3 mana negate an attacker every turn. I still don't think it's the best though. Displacer has just gotten outclassed by the other spells we are getting.
I count 11 4 Cave, 4 temple, 2 GQ, 1 Vault but I am with you in thinking.... I am probably going to cut out my fetches altogether. Here is my future landbase (most likely, it does keep changing)
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Godless Shrine
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sea-gate Wreckage
At least we finally have something to slot in the 4, but we probably can't run much more than that (so sad about Reality Smasher) for precisely this reason, so the change in this deck would likely be pretty gentle and minimal:
3 Oblivion Sower
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Warping Wail
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
3 Rest for the Weary
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Duress
Just cut 2 3cmc threats, a 6cmc threat, and a discard spell for 4 TKS, and added a couple Warping Wail in place of other removal because that's my jam, but honestly it might just be too much for this poor, crappy mana base.
The colorless-matters OGW cards are going to put extreme demands on the manabase and may prove to make Oath cards untenable in a B/x/C build.
I don't think I am going to cut Reality Smasher completely. I didn't like the mainboarded Slaughter Pact and would trim the Oblivion Sowers by 1 so your creature base is:
3x Wasteland Strangler
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Blight Herder
2x Reality Smasher
2x Oblivion Sower
Also I have REALLY like Vault of the Archangel and think it deserves a spot. It's just SO good with Lingering Souls and Blight Herder tokens. Also remember that with Reality Smasher it only does 1 to the blocker and then tramples over for the rest.
You mean just in case of a Blood Moon you'd run a Waste? I can see the sense in that.. was just wondering. (you can also path your own spirit token to get there as well if needed. Rare occurance but sometimes it happens.)
My personal preference is to play it safe when I'm not sure what to do. But your tolerance for risk might be different
The answer is the Fetch Lands... I don't think they are going to be needed. Replace 3 of them with Godless Shrines and 1 with a Vault.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
I'm liking the 1 of Wreckage, that card I can see doing work.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Caves will need to be a 4 of. It'll be in the lists for sure but if you've read Frank Karsten "How Many Colored Mana Sources Do You Need to Consistently Cast Your Spells?" article you should be money. Below is my list that I'll be playing in a 2k a day after oath drops.
1 Spellskite
2 Wasteland Strangler
2 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (7)
4 Path to Exile
2 Warping Wail
1 Slaughter Pact
Sorcery (9)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
Artifacts (6)
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Expedition Map
2 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Shambling Vent
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Caves of Koilos
3 Rest for the Weary
2 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Memoricide
1 Crucible of worlds
This deck has 14
Have you tested seagate? this is a midrange deck that grinds, you will often be left card less, sea gate is gas. Vault is a great card but its better suited if you're going to include Timely in the board. 3 MD GQ means the probability of having it on T3 against tron is nearly 43% thats not taking into account map activations, bumping GQ to 4 MD your probability goes up to nearly 10% to me it isn't worth adding additional GQ for that match up in particular when Sea gate (or vault) would be better served in that spot.
I disagree with you on Tendrills, You shouldn't be brining this card in against decks like Zoo, its there from tokens, elves and merfolk. Shambling Vents is what gives this deck a fair match up against Zoo and Burn, from reading your comments I have a hard time believing you've actually tested this list or cards out extensively, if you haven't thats fine, but you're theory crafting. I strongly encourage you to go and watch Magus or Watchwolf's streams because they're playing incredibly similar lists and consistently putting up results with cards you've brought into question.
As for EE over Ratchet bomb, in what world are you getting EE to 3? more often you're playing EE for sunburst 0 and best case scenario if need be sacing on 2, bomb fufills the same role with offering much more upside., the only difference is if you're sunbursting for 1 and sacing on 2, your a turn behind with bomb; but again upside, I make that trade off everyday and twice on sunday. EE is a great cards but ratchet bomb is better suited in this deck for its utility and upside.
The Vault + creatures has won me more games than I had a right to (especially against zoo as they can't just alpha strike you).
I'm starting to think about branching outside of white into either green or blue. Blue gives us a cute card in delay, which can be a hard counter for all intents and purposes. That card would give us better game vs Tron. The green would give us: Maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay, golgari charm, putrefy and plenty of answers to affinity. I think the green would make the blood moon matches a heck of a lot better. I know this is technically not the thread for it but I am really wondering if b/w is the best combination the deck can have.
I wish the magic community here was a bit better so that i could play test to the death and report but alas...guess we'll have to wait until the pro tour!
I was not a fan of the tap lands in my testing.
As for Shambling Vents, I think the point is that you want to naturally draw it versus the aggro decks instead of having to break a Map for it. I agree that 3 is a lot, though. I'd want to be sure that that card is actually great before burdening my mana with a tapped land like that.
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Godless Shrine
3x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Blight Herder
3x Oblivion Sower
4x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4x Wasteland Strangler
1x Slaughter Pact
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Expedition Map
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Celestial Flare
2x Disenchant
2x Duress
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Rest for the Weary
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
In testing this has given me the most stable plays, I'm pretty settled on this as a list for Bw going forward if I decide to move away from mono B.