I think it's fantastic. he can easily be a 3 drop 5/5 trample haster. That can turn us into an aggressor in a heartbeat. Auto 2 for 1 is great. Also something to note. If they are top decking... they can't kill it with spot removal.
Counterspells and Liliana are the easiest ways to deal with it.
I think it's fantastic. he can easily be a 3 drop 5/5 trample haster. That can turn us into an aggressor in a heartbeat. Auto 2 for 1 is great. Also something to note. If they are top decking... they can't kill it with spot removal.
Counterspells and Liliana are the easiest ways to deal with it.
Both those things don't scare us a ton either. I really think that makes this guy right in our wheelhouse. The fact he can also be a top deck surprise 5 damage swing is pretty big too. Might help kill opposing walkers or provide unexpected crackback.
Above is my current decklist. First off, I am eventually replacing mainboard duress with Inquisitions, just don't have them yet and I don't own Marsh Flats so I am using a Black fetch subsitute.. just gotta pick them up. Anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to try out some Tidehollow Scullers but have no idea where I might be able to trim and fit them in. I am also a bit worried about adding more W to the deck. I can easily get colorless and Black which are the key "colors" but there are still some games where getting the white source can be more problematic.
So i posted this in the other forum but what do you guys think of main deck aven mindcensor? They cover some of our weaknesses vs tron, scapeshift and amulet of vigor. With 4 path to exile and 4 ghost quarter i think they might be good enough for the main board (instead of 2 or 3 lingering souls maybe)! Attacking the opponent's mana while pseudo-ramping with our lands could give us a big mana advantage. Also even vs decks like affinity they can suprise block a signal pest or trade with a plating carrier, like lingering souls do (but not as well obviously).
So i posted this in the other forum but what do you guys think of main deck aven mindcensor? They cover some of our weaknesses vs tron, scapeshift and amulet of vigor. With 4 path to exile and 4 ghost quarter i think they might be good enough for the main board (instead of 2 or 3 lingering souls maybe)! Attacking the opponent's mana while pseudo-ramping with our lands could give us a big mana advantage. Also even vs decks like affinity they can suprise block a signal pest or trade with a plating carrier, like lingering souls do (but not as well obviously).
I like the idea of mindcensor but lingering souls does a TON of work. I'm not sold on it being the best card for the slot but it's very very good.
Above is my current decklist. First off, I am eventually replacing mainboard duress with Inquisitions, just don't have them yet and I don't own Marsh Flats so I am using a Black fetch subsitute.. just gotta pick them up. Anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to try out some Tidehollow Scullers but have no idea where I might be able to trim and fit them in. I am also a bit worried about adding more W to the deck. I can easily get colorless and Black which are the key "colors" but there are still some games where getting the white source can be more problematic.
I have been having similar problems with color consistency and asked about it on the Bx thread. I was referred to this interesting read that you might want to take a look at:
TL;DR version: To have B on T1 with 90% frequency we should be at 14 sources for black and to have W on T3 at 90% we should have 12 sources for white. I don't see that as realistic if we want to keep Vault of the Archangel--which I love and would never cut in a Lingering Souls deck--and at least 2 Ghost Quarter.
It is my sense that Sculler puts way too much pressure on the manabase and therefore doesn't fit the curve particularly well despite its obvious synergy potential.
I really like reality smasher but i think it is better for br and monoB than it is for us. Just because they are more aggro and rampy than we are. I still definitely think it's wirth a spot, im just not sure where it fits in this strategy.
I really like lingering souls in this deck and it has been consistently good for me, but i also like sculler and think I probably play more colored sources than others seem to.
I have to say i like the idea of md censor. I tried a couple in the side and they were good. But since we already play path and gq md i could definitely see the argument for a md inclusion.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I really like reality smasher but i think it is better for br and monoB than it is for us. Just because they are more aggro and rampy than we are. I still definitely think it's wirth a spot, im just not sure where it fits in this strategy.
I really like lingering souls in this deck and it has been consistently good for me, but i also like sculler and think I probably play more colored sources than others seem to.
I have to say i like the idea of md censor. I tried a couple in the side and they were good. But since we already play path and gq md i could definitely see the argument for a md inclusion.
I agree on Reality Smasher and our strategy. However with the new White Eldrazi, it does give us the option of going more aggro since we could effectively run 8 "1-3 mana" 3 power creatures (in Strangler and the white one), 4 "3" drop 4/5 that gives us 3 1/1's sometimes and 4 "3" drop 5/5 Trample and Haste. Could be an interesting path for the deck but I agree maybe not this one. (maybe that deck ends up being Dega? You go full bore on removal (bolts, paths, possibly helix) and ditch the top end eldrazi all together.)
I really like reality smasher but i think it is better for br and monoB than it is for us. Just because they are more aggro and rampy than we are. I still definitely think it's wirth a spot, im just not sure where it fits in this strategy.
I really like lingering souls in this deck and it has been consistently good for me, but i also like sculler and think I probably play more colored sources than others seem to.
I have to say i like the idea of md censor. I tried a couple in the side and they were good. But since we already play path and gq md i could definitely see the argument for a md inclusion.
I think there is a lot of upside to reality smasher but as you said Its more likely that'll find a spot in mono black or a hyper aggressive BR build that likely forgoes sower and the top end.
Souls gives this deck a ton of game against the field and while I could see the mana denial push with Path & Aven, to me it would be a meta call and have a place in the sideboard likely competing with crucible of worlds slot.
Above is my current decklist. First off, I am eventually replacing mainboard duress with Inquisitions, just don't have them yet and I don't own Marsh Flats so I am using a Black fetch subsitute.. just gotta pick them up. Anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to try out some Tidehollow Scullers but have no idea where I might be able to trim and fit them in. I am also a bit worried about adding more W to the deck. I can easily get colorless and Black which are the key "colors" but there are still some games where getting the white source can be more problematic.
In your deck if I would try Tidehollow Sculler I would play them instead of Spellskite and/or discard spell. They are the only places I can see them without hurting too much your main deck (you can remove 1 Oblivion Sower but..). The thing is that Spellskite is very versatile against various decks (twin,infect,boogles) so if you cut them at least move them to sideboard. If you cut 1 discard spell (it hurts because they are cheaper) you will replace one effect with other similar(both "discards"/"exile" cards from hand) so you are not loosing too much. Just be careful with Tidehollow Sculler against removal stuff before you process their exiled card. Since having exactly to play can be harsh I suggest some Fetid Heath to fix it turn 2 or just play Caves of Koilos instead of Bloodstained Mire/fetch land so will keep your mana base without loosing consistent.
I really like reality smasher but i think it is better for br and monoB than it is for us. Just because they are more aggro and rampy than we are. I still definitely think it's wirth a spot, im just not sure where it fits in this strategy.
I really like lingering souls in this deck and it has been consistently good for me, but i also like sculler and think I probably play more colored sources than others seem to.
I have to say i like the idea of md censor. I tried a couple in the side and they were good. But since we already play path and gq md i could definitely see the argument for a md inclusion.
I think there is a lot of upside to reality smasher but as you said Its more likely that'll find a spot in mono black or a hyper aggressive BR build that likely forgoes sower and the top end.
Souls gives this deck a ton of game against the field and while I could see the mana denial push with Path & Aven, to me it would be a meta call and have a place in the sideboard likely competing with crucible of worlds slot.
I mean they are strong cards but do they fit the currently deck list (lingering souls one) we are playing? At least do they deserve a space because they do something the others can't do?
Among the new cards I think Endbringer can share some space with Oblivion Sower (3 Oblivion Sower and 1 Endbringer) because End is very versatile. Reality Smasher is very aggressive but I don't know if we really want to play so aggressive at least not with the currently deck list because we would need to cut something good to trade with something very aggro. It could be good killing planeswalker but...very situational.
I think there is a lot of upside to reality smasher but as you said Its more likely that'll find a spot in mono black or a hyper aggressive BR build that likely forgoes sower and the top end.
Souls gives this deck a ton of game against the field and while I could see the mana denial push with Path & Aven, to me it would be a meta call and have a place in the sideboard likely competing with crucible of worlds slot.
I think for me the debate comes up to what matchups they each help in. Some brief matchup thoughts below with each card (I'm not going to repeat the Mindcensor -> Path and GQ interaction with each, just what it affects out of their specific deck):
Jund: Both are ok in the matchup. With mindcensor, they have creatures you are going to want to remove and run a lot of fetches. Unfortunately they also have a TON of removal which it might soak up and then do nothing. Lingering Souls on the other hand almost always 2 for 1's. The only downside is getting it eaten out of yard by a Scooze but that is a very minor downside. (Favor: Lingering Souls)
Twin: Mindcensor's flash lets you keep mana open on T3 and still make a play. That is a huge plus. They do have fetches as well but otherwise don't search their library. Souls trades really well with Pestermite, Clique and Snapcaster.. Unfortunately it doesn't do anything against Twin though and tapping out T3 isn't an option. (Favor: Mindcensor)
GR Tron: Tron has a ton of tutors, unfortunately a lot of them come down before T3 and let them assemble tron. It does help stop them from searching for a late game spaghetti monster but it does nothing against Ancient Stirrings. It's best hope is to T1 and T2 discard away their tutors and then drop it T3. Lingering Souls is essentially just a beat stick in this matchup. I do like it though as it can beat down Karn if they want to exile something else and relies on them to sweep regularly. (Favor: I'd say very slightly Mindcensor but this is a bad matchup and Mindcensor doesn't really change that)
Affinity: I can't think of a single card that tutors in affinity. Am I wrong? Lingering souls is a house in slowing this deck down. It kills pests and blocks fliers/plated robots. It can bye you the turns you need to stabilize. (Favor: 100% Lingering Souls)
Burn: They run lots of fetches but only really need them in the first 2 turns. Otherwise they will just kill the bird and move on with their day. Lingering souls gets relegated to chump duties again and can be a lifesaver if their had was relying on their creatures to kill you.(Favor: Lingering Souls)
Merfolk: Similar to affinity in application for both these cards. (Favor: Lingering Souls)
Scapeshift: Mindcensor's dream crusher matchup. They essentially have to cryptic bounce it or bolt it. Lingering Souls doesn't apply enough pressure to make a difference in this matchup. (Favor: 100% Mindcensor)
Any other matchups folks want to go over? I think Lingering Souls is better against most of the field and even in the matchups that Mindcensor might aid us in.. it's help can be minimal. Most cards we use try to be as close as possible to a 2 for 1 at any given time. Mindcensor might make our GQ or Path better but they are too vulnerable in my book.
Above is my current decklist. First off, I am eventually replacing mainboard duress with Inquisitions, just don't have them yet and I don't own Marsh Flats so I am using a Black fetch subsitute.. just gotta pick them up. Anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to try out some Tidehollow Scullers but have no idea where I might be able to trim and fit them in. I am also a bit worried about adding more W to the deck. I can easily get colorless and Black which are the key "colors" but there are still some games where getting the white source can be more problematic.
In your deck if I would try Tidehollow Sculler I would play them instead of Spellskite and/or discard spell. They are the only places I can see them without hurting too much your main deck (you can remove 1 Oblivion Sower but..). The thing is that Spellskite is very versatile against various decks (twin,infect,boogles) so if you cut them at least move them to sideboard. If you cut 1 discard spell (it hurts because they are cheaper) you will replace one effect with other similar(both "discards"/"exile" cards from hand) so you are not loosing too much. Just be careful with Tidehollow Sculler against removal stuff before you process their exiled card. Since having exactly to play can be harsh I suggest some Fetid Heath to fix it turn 2 or just play Caves of Koilos instead of Bloodstained Mire/fetch land so will keep your mana base without loosing consistent.
Great suggestions, thanks. I am with you 100% on the Spellskite route. I don't want to lose their versatility but that would likely be the slot they go it. I think I wont put sculler in the deck just yet. It may be better if the blinker becomes a reliable option (since you can soft lock their draw step on any non-land, non-instant)
Since having exactly to play can be harsh I suggest some Fetid Heath to fix it turn 2 or just play Caves of Koilos instead of Bloodstained Mire/fetch land so will keep your mana base without loosing consistent.
Great suggestions, thanks. I am with you 100% on the Spellskite route. I don't want to lose their versatility but that would likely be the slot they go it. I think I wont put sculler in the deck just yet. It may be better if the blinker becomes a reliable option (since you can soft lock their draw step on any non-land, non-instant)
It was my experience playing a BW midrange Pack Rat/Abyssal Persecutor build (link in sig) for many months, that Fetid Heath is very bad in a deck with many colorless lands. I had only 6 colorless utility lands in that build, and Heath was useless to me way too often for lack of a starter color source.
This deck needs colorless so it might play better here. But based on my extensive play testing experience, I think the idea that it is going to power a T2 Sculler is optimistic.
Since having exactly to play can be harsh I suggest some Fetid Heath to fix it turn 2 or just play Caves of Koilos instead of Bloodstained Mire/fetch land so will keep your mana base without loosing consistent.
Great suggestions, thanks. I am with you 100% on the Spellskite route. I don't want to lose their versatility but that would likely be the slot they go it. I think I wont put sculler in the deck just yet. It may be better if the blinker becomes a reliable option (since you can soft lock their draw step on any non-land, non-instant)
It was my experience playing a BW midrange Pack Rat/Abyssal Persecutor build (link in sig) for many months, that Fetid Heath is very bad in a deck with many colorless lands. I had only 6 colorless utility lands in that build, and Heath was useless to me way too often for lack of a starter color source.
This deck needs colorless so it might play better here. But based on my extensive play testing experience, I think the idea that it is going to power a T2 Sculler is optimistic.
I agree with that. I haven't played live with a sculler but it was awkward in the fishbowl. I might still run a Fetid Heath though as it lets you get a white source out of an online Urborg which seems nice enough addition. It may also depend on how much we use things with the new colorless mana symbol that we'd have to pay.
I love this; puts it in a similar spectrum as the rest of the eldrazi, bolt and decay proof, can be dropped on turn 2 and easier on the base than I can see this being making the cut.
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Counterspells and Liliana are the easiest ways to deal with it.
Both those things don't scare us a ton either. I really think that makes this guy right in our wheelhouse. The fact he can also be a top deck surprise 5 damage swing is pretty big too. Might help kill opposing walkers or provide unexpected crackback.
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Bloodstaind Mire
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
Creature (14)
4x Blight Herder
4x Oblivion Sower
2x Spellskite
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3x Wasteland Strangler
2x Go for the Throat
4x Path to Exile
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Surgical Extraction
Artifact (4)
4x Relic of Progenitus
Sorcery (10)
1x All Is Dust
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
4x Lingering Souls
2x Thoughtseize
2x Celestial Purge
1x Disenchant
2x Duress
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Stony Silence
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Damnation
Above is my current decklist. First off, I am eventually replacing mainboard duress with Inquisitions, just don't have them yet and I don't own Marsh Flats so I am using a Black fetch subsitute.. just gotta pick them up. Anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to try out some Tidehollow Scullers but have no idea where I might be able to trim and fit them in. I am also a bit worried about adding more W to the deck. I can easily get colorless and Black which are the key "colors" but there are still some games where getting the white source can be more problematic.
I like the idea of mindcensor but lingering souls does a TON of work. I'm not sold on it being the best card for the slot but it's very very good.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
TL;DR version: To have B on T1 with 90% frequency we should be at 14 sources for black and to have W on T3 at 90% we should have 12 sources for white. I don't see that as realistic if we want to keep Vault of the Archangel--which I love and would never cut in a Lingering Souls deck--and at least 2 Ghost Quarter.
It is my sense that Sculler puts way too much pressure on the manabase and therefore doesn't fit the curve particularly well despite its obvious synergy potential.
I really like lingering souls in this deck and it has been consistently good for me, but i also like sculler and think I probably play more colored sources than others seem to.
I have to say i like the idea of md censor. I tried a couple in the side and they were good. But since we already play path and gq md i could definitely see the argument for a md inclusion.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I agree on Reality Smasher and our strategy. However with the new White Eldrazi, it does give us the option of going more aggro since we could effectively run 8 "1-3 mana" 3 power creatures (in Strangler and the white one), 4 "3" drop 4/5 that gives us 3 1/1's sometimes and 4 "3" drop 5/5 Trample and Haste. Could be an interesting path for the deck but I agree maybe not this one. (maybe that deck ends up being Dega? You go full bore on removal (bolts, paths, possibly helix) and ditch the top end eldrazi all together.)
I think there is a lot of upside to reality smasher but as you said Its more likely that'll find a spot in mono black or a hyper aggressive BR build that likely forgoes sower and the top end.
Souls gives this deck a ton of game against the field and while I could see the mana denial push with Path & Aven, to me it would be a meta call and have a place in the sideboard likely competing with crucible of worlds slot.
In your deck if I would try Tidehollow Sculler I would play them instead of Spellskite and/or discard spell. They are the only places I can see them without hurting too much your main deck (you can remove 1 Oblivion Sower but..). The thing is that Spellskite is very versatile against various decks (twin,infect,boogles) so if you cut them at least move them to sideboard. If you cut 1 discard spell (it hurts because they are cheaper) you will replace one effect with other similar(both "discards"/"exile" cards from hand) so you are not loosing too much. Just be careful with Tidehollow Sculler against removal stuff before you process their exiled card. Since having exactly to play can be harsh I suggest some Fetid Heath to fix it turn 2 or just play Caves of Koilos instead of Bloodstained Mire/fetch land so will keep your mana base without loosing consistent.
The thing about the new cards like Reality Smasher/Eldrazi Displacer/Endbringer (not counting Kozilek, the Great Distortion) is the question: Are they better than the currently Eldrazis that we are playing (Blight Herder/Oblivion Sower)?
I mean they are strong cards but do they fit the currently deck list (lingering souls one) we are playing? At least do they deserve a space because they do something the others can't do?
Among the new cards I think Endbringer can share some space with Oblivion Sower (3 Oblivion Sower and 1 Endbringer) because End is very versatile. Reality Smasher is very aggressive but I don't know if we really want to play so aggressive at least not with the currently deck list because we would need to cut something good to trade with something very aggro. It could be good killing planeswalker but...very situational.
I think for me the debate comes up to what matchups they each help in. Some brief matchup thoughts below with each card (I'm not going to repeat the Mindcensor -> Path and GQ interaction with each, just what it affects out of their specific deck):
Jund: Both are ok in the matchup. With mindcensor, they have creatures you are going to want to remove and run a lot of fetches. Unfortunately they also have a TON of removal which it might soak up and then do nothing. Lingering Souls on the other hand almost always 2 for 1's. The only downside is getting it eaten out of yard by a Scooze but that is a very minor downside. (Favor: Lingering Souls)
Twin: Mindcensor's flash lets you keep mana open on T3 and still make a play. That is a huge plus. They do have fetches as well but otherwise don't search their library. Souls trades really well with Pestermite, Clique and Snapcaster.. Unfortunately it doesn't do anything against Twin though and tapping out T3 isn't an option. (Favor: Mindcensor)
GR Tron: Tron has a ton of tutors, unfortunately a lot of them come down before T3 and let them assemble tron. It does help stop them from searching for a late game spaghetti monster but it does nothing against Ancient Stirrings. It's best hope is to T1 and T2 discard away their tutors and then drop it T3. Lingering Souls is essentially just a beat stick in this matchup. I do like it though as it can beat down Karn if they want to exile something else and relies on them to sweep regularly. (Favor: I'd say very slightly Mindcensor but this is a bad matchup and Mindcensor doesn't really change that)
Affinity: I can't think of a single card that tutors in affinity. Am I wrong? Lingering souls is a house in slowing this deck down. It kills pests and blocks fliers/plated robots. It can bye you the turns you need to stabilize. (Favor: 100% Lingering Souls)
Burn: They run lots of fetches but only really need them in the first 2 turns. Otherwise they will just kill the bird and move on with their day. Lingering souls gets relegated to chump duties again and can be a lifesaver if their had was relying on their creatures to kill you.(Favor: Lingering Souls)
Merfolk: Similar to affinity in application for both these cards. (Favor: Lingering Souls)
Scapeshift: Mindcensor's dream crusher matchup. They essentially have to cryptic bounce it or bolt it. Lingering Souls doesn't apply enough pressure to make a difference in this matchup. (Favor: 100% Mindcensor)
Any other matchups folks want to go over? I think Lingering Souls is better against most of the field and even in the matchups that Mindcensor might aid us in.. it's help can be minimal. Most cards we use try to be as close as possible to a 2 for 1 at any given time. Mindcensor might make our GQ or Path better but they are too vulnerable in my book.
Great suggestions, thanks. I am with you 100% on the Spellskite route. I don't want to lose their versatility but that would likely be the slot they go it. I think I wont put sculler in the deck just yet. It may be better if the blinker becomes a reliable option (since you can soft lock their draw step on any non-land, non-instant)
So this is the first time I realized you don't have to tap it to use it's ability... so dumb.
This deck needs colorless so it might play better here. But based on my extensive play testing experience, I think the idea that it is going to power a T2 Sculler is optimistic.
I agree with that. I haven't played live with a sculler but it was awkward in the fishbowl. I might still run a Fetid Heath though as it lets you get a white source out of an online Urborg which seems nice enough addition. It may also depend on how much we use things with the new colorless mana symbol that we'd have to pay.
Search the thread.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
My eyes are popping out of their sockets at how good that is.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW