Since Tidehollow Sculler is a bit annoying to cast, has anyone tried brain maggot? Doesn't beat down or trade in combat as well, but is way easier to cast. I figure most often, you just want to rip a card out of their hand and have something to process. You'd be able to play Brain Maggot turn 2, and then Strangler with just black Mana available.
To be honest, Joe Soh's deck mana base seems fine. It is very similar if you compared it to Eldrazi Death & Taxes deck which runs 4 Ghost Quarter instead of 4Mutavault. The only difference is that Eldrazi Death & Taxes has access to turn 1 Aether Vial, which allows you to drop creatures if you do not have the mana to cast them. Wasteland Strangler is a important piece of the deck. The deck relies on turn 1 & 2 discard spell to strip and gain information on opponent's hand, cast efficient bodies such as Tidehollow Sculler and Thought-knot Seer to further strip their hand, then you use Wasteland Strangler to make sure the cards doesn't come back.
The problem with Eldrazi and taxes is that the mana is attoricous compared to mono white and Gw D&T.
Joh Sohs deck not running the vials makes it even worse. I love his deck but I am still trying to figure out a manabase that works with the deck. The way it currently is constructed is not consistent at all.
The manabase does seem a little awkward, maybe swapping Mutavault for Marsh Flats is the way to go. Shambling Vent can also be good but as a tapland it will slow down the deck as well, maybe it can replace Concealed Courtyard which can enter tapped as well sometimes.
I went 4-0 at my local Modern with this yesterday. I have also been having very good success with it on MODO as well. Mana base feels very solid, although I can see cutting 1 Mutavalut for a second Swamp or Godless Shrine.
Just went 4-1 in a league with this, loosing only to Storm in a close three games. I don't own surgicals on MODO, so have 2x timely in that slot for now. If I had them, theres a good chance it would have been a 5-0. Side note, Mutavault won me several games. I am considering moving the ratchet bomb to the board and bringing in the second Collective Brutality, as it's been an all star.
I went 4-0 at my local Modern with this yesterday. I have also been having very good success with it on MODO as well. Mana base feels very solid, although I can see cutting 1 Mutavalut for a second Swamp or Godless Shrine.
Just went 4-1 in a league with this, loosing only to Storm in a close three games. I don't own surgicals on MODO, so have 2x timely in that slot for now. If I had them, theres a good chance it would have been a 5-0. Side note, Mutavault won me several games. I am considering moving the ratchet bomb to the board and bringing in the second Collective Brutality, as it's been an all star.
Question: competitive leagues or friendly? Also, are you tracking number of starts with uncastable Scullers, by any chance? I really can't get behind a manabase that has Sculler and fewer than say 17 lands minimum that unconditionally cast him on T2. There are few things I enjoy less than dying because I had the wrong lands for my spells.
I'm still not sold on Sculler, but I think it might work with the right manabase. I may try a Sculler build again with something like this as a land package (btw I am certain 23 is too few lands for a deck that wants T3/4 Seer and T4/5 Smasher, and Karsten agrees):
This would cast T1 Thoughtseize/IoK very reliably, though usually with some kind of pain attached. Drawing Shambling Vent in an opener with T1 disruption, plus T2 Sculler mana, would be awkward but rare. Almost any early game state gives the color-producing lands that together will cast Sculler on T2, and there are 18 of these lands, which is not too far off from Karsten's recommended 20. Meanwhile there are 11 sources for C which puts us at his recommendation for T4 Thought-Knot Seer. And we still have room for a couple of Mutavaults (three manlands total), plus a decent fetch-to-target ration that should leave us with very few dead fetch lands, and still allow decent access to basics if Blood Moon pops up.
A concern I have with this land package is that Ghost Quarter really is still relevant. I lost to Inkmoth out of Affinity on Monday, and to Tron on Friday, so I still want land hate anyway, and I bet those going to other large events will not infrequently find they do, too. Also, no Wastes for Blood Moon backup is a recipe for disaster against that hate card, since it is very hard to win without the big guys. All of this makes it look like maybe as many as 3-4 SB slots need to go to Fulminator Mage and one Wastes, but then we gimp some other match.
Right now I feel I have at least a few things to side in for really any match I might encounter. Adding Sculler makes me feel that I might need to just write off some matches, and hope to dodge them instead. Maybe this is correct, even, in terms of getting a higher overall win rate. But it's not how I have always thought about this deck idea, personally, and I can be pretty resistant to change.
This was a competitive league. I beat Jund Shadow 2-0, New Eggs Combo 2-0, Elves 2-1, Living End 2-0 and lost to Gifts Storm 1-2. I never had an issue casting Sculler on turn 2 with the 15 W/B sources. I do agree the deck could benefit from a 24th land. I run two QG in the side. I bring them in against Blood Moon, Tron, Valukut and Inkmoth Nexus decks. The bottom line is the mana base is a bit greedy, but very powerful.
Thinking to test a similar version with Marsh Flats with Blight Herders instead Smashers and 2 Sorins instead the Glory-Bound.
4 relics and 4 Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard?!?!?!? Is the meta online that graveyard dependent?
Is Glory-Bound Initiate any good? The 3 power is no joke and drastically speeds up our clock. Does anybody have any experience with glory-bound in this deck? Glory-bound does fill out our lack of 2-drops.
Maybe cast out is a good fit for this deck? Cycling is decent and it takes care of karn, etc.
Cast Out is fine but I probably won't run more than one.
The cycling seems more relevant if you play it in the maindeck, in the SB I'd probably prefer Anguished Unmaking because when I bring it in I fully intend to use it.
If you really want to speed up the clock and go more aggro Dryad Militant seems like a decent option.
It also gives more processing fodder to Wasteland Strangler and works against Snapcaster Mage decks.
I've no idea why these decks don't run even a single copy of Urborg in their deck with so many colorless lands.
There is also no need to overload on colorless lands when you only run R.Smasher and TKS (and no M.Reshaper).
From what I recall, Joe Soh's deck is an adaption of BR processor which doesn't have access to shambling vent so it tends to run mutavault instead. He was very likely already working with Mutavault and this may help explain why he ran the 4 Mutavaults (assuming he hasn't been paying much attention to this thread, if any). Shambling vent may have never occurred to him.
Personally, I've been finding shambling vent to be slow (I hate that it enters tapped) and sometimes a little awkward as the activation cost is pretty steep. So I'm considering replacing my two copies for 2 Mutavault and then this is what my manabase will look like afterward:
So is this a trap and will I come out from it with a feeling of having been violated by tentacles; or is that how my opponents will feel?
On another note, an interesting question was raised a few pages back on the thread: can we cut mindstone. I recall someone describing it as a 3 mana cycler. What is the consensus on this point? I've played about 4 games against blood moon at my local store and was able to fight through it and win 3 of them thanks to this card. It also seems to increase our chances of t3 TKS which seems to be where we want to play TKS.
I've taken advice from Herfs and Zirzhas on acquiring Marsh Flats for my version. Halfway there but would like to confirm the purpose they serve in the deck; is it primarily mana-fixing or is there a deck-thinnning argument to consider here. I keep considering the blood moon scenario and I'm concerned 3 fetches aren't enough to mana-fix prior to a blood moon resolving and I have these nagging thoughts about basic lands being better draws while we're in the red-light district. This is obviously coming from someone who hasn't yet played marsh flats in the deck. So another question I need to ask my esteemed mentors from the salvation army is whether the choice to run marsh flats is even made with blood moon in mind or not. I am fixated on blood moon because we are a 3-colour deck and I'm terrified of it, lol.
I've also managed to acquire a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, which I've enjoyed running in the deck with lingering souls. But I've been paying attention to Eldrazi Tron lists and was wondering if running 1-2 basilisk collar for the lifegain might be more efficient? Obviously, Sorin has the +1/0 clause and more modes which can be very relevant and Tron runs them not only for life-gain but for synergy with Walking Ballista as well.
Appreciate all your previous responses and would love an opinion on this stuff before I start cooking recklessly with lots of spice, lol.
Etcherik, that mana base will never cast Sculler reliably. (Not sure if you're playing that card or not, though.) It also has only ten ways to cast IoK/Thoughtseize on T1. I cut Sorin from my last version and am noticeably softer to Burn now, but probably better in most other matches. I would not run Basilisk Collar because it is a do-nothing by itself. In E-Tron it makes Ballista and also Endbringer unbelievable. Not so sure that Gemstone Caverns fits in this deck; I think it should probably be a couple more duals.
You can deal with Blood Moon in several ways with this deck. Some builds have more outs than others do.
Run some number of Mind Stone--this is particularly strong in G1
Take their Moon with hand disruption
Run fetches and fetch for basic Swamp/Plains
Run a Wastes in your 75--you can tutor for it as described in the next two options
Path your own creature (optimally a Spirit token) for any basic
Hold up an unactivated Ghost Quarter to hit your own land in response to Blood Moon, getting any basic
Most Moon-playing lists (not all!) don't apply a lot of fast pressure and the above works very well in such cases. If you fetch, you want to fetch a Plains most of the time so you can cast the first half of Lingering Souls and then Path a token end step for your next basic. (You run fetches for mana fixing, not deck-thinning.) Builds with no fetches and no Ghost Quarters are guaranteed to be soft to Blood Moon, doubly so if they also run Smasher and Seer but no Wastes or Mind Stone. I have played this deck a lot, and I would never post a list that doesn't have a solid plan for the format's best red hate card.
D90Dennis14, unless you run some number of BB-cost cards in the 75, the only benefit in running an Urborg is to make fetch lands tap for B. Which some builds will want, seeing as I am reading deck lists with four Marsh Flats, but only three targets. Running a land package like that is definitely a mistake that will at times lead to playing dead fetch lands, in a deck that really cannot afford to miss land drops. Grixis and BGx builds can regularly cast their 4/5s on T2, but we have to wait... gotta make those land drops. BTW I agree with your take on [c[]Cast Out[/c] and Glorybound Initiate.
In my recent nights I have been playing with two Eternal Scourge in the place of the Mind Stones I had, to up the threat density, synergize with Relic, bolster the makes-targeted-removal-bad premise of my build, and provide something to do if my opponent does land an unexpected Blood Moon. I also run a Wastes main now. The deck seems OK, but I did mull a lot on Monday and ended up 2-2, beating traditional Abzan and Jund Shadow but losing to Naya Burn and Affinity. I am still not sold on Sculler but may try it again tomorrow night. If I do I'll run the land package I described above.
#Urborg makes Eldrazi Temple and Mutavault (for decks that run it) tap for Black so it does more than just "enable" fetches.
#Regarding BB cards, would you run any (if you could build a manabase that can cast them reliablt enough) ? Gifted Aetherborn seems good as well as both Lilianas.
#I think that if the deck runs T.Sculler, W.Strangler and TKS anyway it is a waste not to run E.Displacer as well which makes them better and is a very good card by itself.
I really like Matter Reshaper but it's ceiling is much lower so I removed it (which also lowers the colorless mana requirements in the deck).
A thought about Cast Out, if look at it as a cycler with an upside (a bit like Relic/Mind Stone sometimes), can we run 4x of them and just actively cycle them unless they are castable/necessary ?
Urborg does make the colorless lands tap for B, it's just that this doesn't really matter, unless you run BB spells. I suppose that rarely you might want to Push a target on the same turn you flash back a Souls or something like that, so I guess it could help a little in corner cases. IMO, running very few spells with double-color casting requirements is part of what makes the deck work. BTW it wasn't your land package I was questioning, but another poster's.
I don't think Aetherborn is better than other things we could be doing on T2. There is a ton of targeted removal floating around right now and being strong against Push seems pretty important. Sculler can at least take away the Push/Path/Bolt that would kill it, but Aetherborn's just gonna die. Displacer is amazing and you are right that it has a much higher ceiling than Reshaper does, but it has a lower floor, too. When I tested it, I found that often I wanted the mana I'd need to activate it for other spells I hadn't cast yet. In other words, I think Reshaper (or Scourge) are much better T2/T3 plays than Displacer is.
I don't think you can run Cast Out like that because it is so expensive for its primary use. (Even Unmaking is too expensive, actually.) I don't actually think of Relic or Mind Stone as cyclers with a non-cycling upside. To me they are part of the deck's gameplan that can also cantrip when they are not relevant. But maybe Cast Out could replace an Unmaking in the maindeck. There have definitely been several times when I couldn't spare the life to cast an in-hand Unmaking, so I dunno.
Thanks for the feedback Deadrift I'm not playing sculler and haven't been impressed with it either. I'm not saying it's a bad card, it just hasn't worked for me in my previous lists. But I do want to test Eldrazi Displacer at some point so I'll probably try it again. `Will take your advice to heart on running more duals if I do. I'm still testing Gemstone caverns so not too sure about that one either. Will be buying another Sorin shortly XD. I'm intrigued by Eternal Scourge. I desperately want scourge to work in this deck, lol. Although I've only ever run it as a singleton so far. Yolo, I'm taking three to my next fnm
I'm in the process of building this deck, any ideas or avenues I should consider? I like the idea of Blight Herder instead of Smasher in the deck, but how good is it? Is it too cute? Also, how good is Sorin Solemn Visitor in this?
Anyway lists welcome.
Thanks.
I personally find processing 2 cards a bit tough 60% of the time and lean toward not wanting to cast them until I can process (which is dumb, I know). I'm also of the impression that they soften us to boardwipes. Personally prefer Smasher because the trample, haste and self-protection clauses are very relevant. However, a lot of the more seasoned Processor veterans have been reporting success with Herder. For instance, Ride The Iguana has been rocking the Herders and pretty much smashing bacon with them from what I can tell. Also there is no harm in picking up both herder and smasher and developing something of an eldrazi toolkit of options to choose from. Herder was what made me want to play the deck in the first place, loved the idea and it was easier to acquire than Reality Smasher at the time (so it's also a great way to help budget into the deck).
You'll undoubtedly get responses from some of the guys and gals more qualified to process you through the BW bootcamp, but I hope you find this a little tidbit helpful in the interim. Good luck! You've made an excellent choice in picking a deck to build!
Joh Sohs deck not running the vials makes it even worse. I love his deck but I am still trying to figure out a manabase that works with the deck. The way it currently is constructed is not consistent at all.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13985
The manabase does seem a little awkward, maybe swapping Mutavault for Marsh Flats is the way to go.
Shambling Vent can also be good but as a tapland it will slow down the deck as well, maybe it can replace Concealed Courtyard which can enter tapped as well sometimes.
Just went 4-1 in a league with this, loosing only to Storm in a close three games. I don't own surgicals on MODO, so have 2x timely in that slot for now. If I had them, theres a good chance it would have been a 5-0. Side note, Mutavault won me several games. I am considering moving the ratchet bomb to the board and bringing in the second Collective Brutality, as it's been an all star.
I'm still not sold on Sculler, but I think it might work with the right manabase. I may try a Sculler build again with something like this as a land package (btw I am certain 23 is too few lands for a deck that wants T3/4 Seer and T4/5 Smasher, and Karsten agrees):
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Concealed Courtyard
3x Marsh Flats
3x Godless Shrine
2x Mutavault
1x Shambling Vent
1x Fetid Heath
1x Swamp
1x Plains
A concern I have with this land package is that Ghost Quarter really is still relevant. I lost to Inkmoth out of Affinity on Monday, and to Tron on Friday, so I still want land hate anyway, and I bet those going to other large events will not infrequently find they do, too. Also, no Wastes for Blood Moon backup is a recipe for disaster against that hate card, since it is very hard to win without the big guys. All of this makes it look like maybe as many as 3-4 SB slots need to go to Fulminator Mage and one Wastes, but then we gimp some other match.
Right now I feel I have at least a few things to side in for really any match I might encounter. Adding Sculler makes me feel that I might need to just write off some matches, and hope to dodge them instead. Maybe this is correct, even, in terms of getting a higher overall win rate. But it's not how I have always thought about this deck idea, personally, and I can be pretty resistant to change.
4 relics and 4 Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard?!?!?!? Is the meta online that graveyard dependent?
Is Glory-Bound Initiate any good? The 3 power is no joke and drastically speeds up our clock. Does anybody have any experience with glory-bound in this deck? Glory-bound does fill out our lack of 2-drops.
Maybe cast out is a good fit for this deck? Cycling is decent and it takes care of karn, etc.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
The cycling seems more relevant if you play it in the maindeck, in the SB I'd probably prefer Anguished Unmaking because when I bring it in I fully intend to use it.
Glory-Bound Initiate is just bad imho, Gifted Aetherborn is the better card (but with a more restrictive casting cost).
If you really want to speed up the clock and go more aggro Dryad Militant seems like a decent option.
It also gives more processing fodder to Wasteland Strangler and works against Snapcaster Mage decks.
I've no idea why these decks don't run even a single copy of Urborg in their deck with so many colorless lands.
There is also no need to overload on colorless lands when you only run R.Smasher and TKS (and no M.Reshaper).
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wasteland Strangler
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
Sorcery (8)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Lingering Souls
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Artifact (4)
4x Relic of Progenitus
1x Cast Out
Land (23)
4x Marsh Flats
3x Godless Shrine
3x Shambling Vent
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Stony Silence
3x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
Personally, I've been finding shambling vent to be slow (I hate that it enters tapped) and sometimes a little awkward as the activation cost is pretty steep. So I'm considering replacing my two copies for 2 Mutavault and then this is what my manabase will look like afterward:
So is this a trap and will I come out from it with a feeling of having been violated by tentacles; or is that how my opponents will feel?
On another note, an interesting question was raised a few pages back on the thread: can we cut mindstone. I recall someone describing it as a 3 mana cycler. What is the consensus on this point? I've played about 4 games against blood moon at my local store and was able to fight through it and win 3 of them thanks to this card. It also seems to increase our chances of t3 TKS which seems to be where we want to play TKS.
I've taken advice from Herfs and Zirzhas on acquiring Marsh Flats for my version. Halfway there but would like to confirm the purpose they serve in the deck; is it primarily mana-fixing or is there a deck-thinnning argument to consider here. I keep considering the blood moon scenario and I'm concerned 3 fetches aren't enough to mana-fix prior to a blood moon resolving and I have these nagging thoughts about basic lands being better draws while we're in the red-light district. This is obviously coming from someone who hasn't yet played marsh flats in the deck. So another question I need to ask my esteemed mentors from the salvation army is whether the choice to run marsh flats is even made with blood moon in mind or not. I am fixated on blood moon because we are a 3-colour deck and I'm terrified of it, lol.
I've also managed to acquire a Sorin, Solemn Visitor, which I've enjoyed running in the deck with lingering souls. But I've been paying attention to Eldrazi Tron lists and was wondering if running 1-2 basilisk collar for the lifegain might be more efficient? Obviously, Sorin has the +1/0 clause and more modes which can be very relevant and Tron runs them not only for life-gain but for synergy with Walking Ballista as well.
Appreciate all your previous responses and would love an opinion on this stuff before I start cooking recklessly with lots of spice, lol.
You can deal with Blood Moon in several ways with this deck. Some builds have more outs than others do.
D90Dennis14, unless you run some number of BB-cost cards in the 75, the only benefit in running an Urborg is to make fetch lands tap for B. Which some builds will want, seeing as I am reading deck lists with four Marsh Flats, but only three targets. Running a land package like that is definitely a mistake that will at times lead to playing dead fetch lands, in a deck that really cannot afford to miss land drops. Grixis and BGx builds can regularly cast their 4/5s on T2, but we have to wait... gotta make those land drops. BTW I agree with your take on [c[]Cast Out[/c] and Glorybound Initiate.
In my recent nights I have been playing with two Eternal Scourge in the place of the Mind Stones I had, to up the threat density, synergize with Relic, bolster the makes-targeted-removal-bad premise of my build, and provide something to do if my opponent does land an unexpected Blood Moon. I also run a Wastes main now. The deck seems OK, but I did mull a lot on Monday and ended up 2-2, beating traditional Abzan and Jund Shadow but losing to Naya Burn and Affinity. I am still not sold on Sculler but may try it again tomorrow night. If I do I'll run the land package I described above.
#Regarding BB cards, would you run any (if you could build a manabase that can cast them reliablt enough) ?
Gifted Aetherborn seems good as well as both Lilianas.
#When you count Marsh Flats targets did you omit the basics ? Because with the basics and 3x Shocks it is 5x targets, which seems fine.
Would 4x Concealed Courtyard +1x Urborg be better than 4x Marsh Flats and the 3rd Godless Shrine/Shambling Vent ?
#I think that if the deck runs T.Sculler, W.Strangler and TKS anyway it is a waste not to run E.Displacer as well which makes them better and is a very good card by itself.
I really like Matter Reshaper but it's ceiling is much lower so I removed it (which also lowers the colorless mana requirements in the deck).
A thought about Cast Out, if look at it as a cycler with an upside (a bit like Relic/Mind Stone sometimes), can we run 4x of them and just actively cycle them unless they are castable/necessary ?
I don't think Aetherborn is better than other things we could be doing on T2. There is a ton of targeted removal floating around right now and being strong against Push seems pretty important. Sculler can at least take away the Push/Path/Bolt that would kill it, but Aetherborn's just gonna die. Displacer is amazing and you are right that it has a much higher ceiling than Reshaper does, but it has a lower floor, too. When I tested it, I found that often I wanted the mana I'd need to activate it for other spells I hadn't cast yet. In other words, I think Reshaper (or Scourge) are much better T2/T3 plays than Displacer is.
I don't think you can run Cast Out like that because it is so expensive for its primary use. (Even Unmaking is too expensive, actually.) I don't actually think of Relic or Mind Stone as cyclers with a non-cycling upside. To me they are part of the deck's gameplan that can also cantrip when they are not relevant. But maybe Cast Out could replace an Unmaking in the maindeck. There have definitely been several times when I couldn't spare the life to cast an in-hand Unmaking, so I dunno.
I personally find processing 2 cards a bit tough 60% of the time and lean toward not wanting to cast them until I can process (which is dumb, I know). I'm also of the impression that they soften us to boardwipes. Personally prefer Smasher because the trample, haste and self-protection clauses are very relevant. However, a lot of the more seasoned Processor veterans have been reporting success with Herder. For instance, Ride The Iguana has been rocking the Herders and pretty much smashing bacon with them from what I can tell. Also there is no harm in picking up both herder and smasher and developing something of an eldrazi toolkit of options to choose from. Herder was what made me want to play the deck in the first place, loved the idea and it was easier to acquire than Reality Smasher at the time (so it's also a great way to help budget into the deck).
You'll undoubtedly get responses from some of the guys and gals more qualified to process you through the BW bootcamp, but I hope you find this a little tidbit helpful in the interim. Good luck! You've made an excellent choice in picking a deck to build!
The 10th place list had Knight of Glory in the SB which was really interesting.
Both were different. One was closer to Joe Sohs list and the other was close to ride the Iguanas list.
Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=28&start_date=06/09/2017&end_date=06/11/2017&start=1&finish=32&event_ID=47&city=Charlotte&start_num=0
I think that it is weird to run 4 main deck relics and still have graveyard hate in the sideboard!
Other than that they:
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange