I have read the article from where that chart is from and it is assuming a 90% chance of casting your spells. I haven't done the math, but with pushing the deck more towards black, I think you lose out more on Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2, which IMO is a more important play than IoK/TS on turn 1. This current mana base has 11 turn 1 black sources, which has 90% of black available by turn 4, which is sub optimal, but I would gather closer to a 80-85% chance on turn 1, which I am ok with as hitting Sol lands to power out big baddies sooner rather than later might be better.
This whole archetype has the problem of mana fixing since about 25% of our mana base are dedicated to casting eldrazi spells. Perhaps if there were better fixing lands the base would be better.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
It is my opinion that non-Eldrazi colorless lands need to be kept to 3-4 maximum in this deck to preserve the possibility of early game colored spells. It has gotten to the point where I am considering cutting Vault of the Archangel which I love, just to make room.
I think fetches are still needed to deal with the threat of Blood Moon, and GQ, Map, or Path will be the only way to tutor a Wastes in that scenario. However a 4-of fetches is definitely too many.
This gives 11 C, 12 B, and 10 W. I have been at 12 B and 11 W lately and that usually--but not always--works out OK. I almost want to make a Shrine or a Flats into a fifth white-giving pain land to up the C and W counts… but then of course the B count goes down. I have not found that there is room for any taplands whatsoever, in my testing.
I don't run Map in the main, but I have a few ways that I can fetch any basic I need, as mentioned above. Running Map takes away from other things I want to do but it might be needed.
1) The best Blood Moon deck is dead. Get those Celestial Purges out of the SB.
2) We're going to see a lot more aggro and Tron, and a lot less midrange now that one of the natural prey for those decks is gone. Interestingly, I think our response to both these developments is similar - just play lower to the ground. Oblivion Sower was needed to go over the midrange decks, but it's not great versus aggro. Similarly, we can't go over Tron, so Sower isn't really the ideal card - Smasher would actually be better here since we need to race, straight up. For similar reasons, I think we just suck it up and play 4 Stranglers. That's really a key card versus aggro and is another random thing to pressure Tron's life total.
That's zero Maps and 26 lands - I added back the third Eye since we don't have the Maps in this build. Might be wrong, but we're not so reliant on the early Eye with zero 6-drops, so I figured this version of the deck just curves out naturally more often. I think there are still situations where you want access to Ulamog, so I left that in there to tutor for with Eye in games that just naturally go long. We should be able to cast it more reliably with 26 lands anyway. It's possible that should be a Map or a Smasher, though.
Herder produces colorless and I run 4. Truly have never had an issue finding SOME colorless source, especially with maps. If I cut them, I may move to some caves, but I can't really see how those are any better than fetches and shocks.
Herder produces colorless and I run 4. Truly have never had an issue finding SOME colorless source, especially with maps. If I cut them, I may move to some caves, but I can't really see how those are any better than fetches and shocks.
They're better because they make all 3 "colors". Herder makes tokens, but only after you've missed your chance to cast TKS and/or Smasher on curve. Getting the sources right is really just a matter of probability and statistics, cf. Karsten's article that keeps getting posted, so it's pretty much umambiguously wrong to be running only 7 colorless lands with your decklist.
Thats so false. As with any 3 color mana base, there is an opportunity cost of running more of your third color. While casting TKS on curve is nice, Id much rather have T1 IoK and T3 Souls in the dark. Those are just better cards in the vast majority of matchups. If I lose consistency with being able to cast some worse cards, fine, but Im not cutting consistency of casting the best cards in the deck and my entire sideboard in order to hit curved out smashers. Not worth it at all.
Just a wonder against burn (or any aggro deck) would it be right to run 1 Tomb of the Spirit Dragon? On a side note I havent played this deck yet as Im getting the cards together, but....
My reasoning:
Taps for colorless
Searchable with Map
I assume we usually have at least 3 creatures out on the board between the scions and what nots, so is 2 mana repeatable gain life good enough? Does save me a sideboard slot instead of having to play rest for weary.
Yeah, cutting purge when everyone is expecting tron is "unambiguously wrong."
For what it's worth, I've been a pretty devoted tron player since the beginning of modern and the one thing we were never particularly worried about was Blood Moon. Others will back me up on this, but the deck is quite happy to just durdle into oblivion stones, nature's claim and even just hardcast wurmcoil engines the good old fashioned way. There's also a bunch of eggs that filter for the colours you need, and 'moon decks tend to be on the slower side (or get slowed down by playing it themselves) so you tend to just not care.
Sowing salt, and now crumble to Dust- those are scary cards. One of those resolves and it's equivalent to being stone-rained twice or even three times by one spell. It's possible to come back from it, but much less likely. It's a bit like Boil for colourless lands.
So i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there'll be less blood moon around.
However; if the Eldrazi deck picks up steam, people will definitely start running moon to combat and slow it down. It probably hurts the bw or bx eldrazi deck more than tron.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Its not what tron players think. Its what tron opponents think. No chance in hell affinity isn't siding in blood moon vs you. In fact, the decks that played Blood moon as a post board win con (twin) are gone. Whats left are very aggressive blood moon decks that beat tron with their clock while tron tries to durdle around. Saying twin is gone and now so is blood moon is an insanely foolish mistake, and Im positive time will prove me right.
Thats so false. As with any 3 color mana base, there is an opportunity cost of running more of your third color. While casting TKS on curve is nice, Id much rather have T1 IoK and T3 Souls in the dark. Those are just better cards in the vast majority of matchups. If I lose consistency with being able to cast some worse cards, fine, but Im not cutting consistency of casting the best cards in the deck and my entire sideboard in order to hit curved out smashers. Not worth it at all.
Caves of Koilos makes white mana and black mana and colorless mana, so cutting some other things for that makes you have more sources of everything, not fewer. You get to cast everything on time when you run a mana base like what I've proposed. Just count out the sources and compare against Karsten's table. The tradeoff is that it's a little more painful sometimes. But that's not the same as just being straight up unable to cast things.
Yeah, cutting purge when everyone is expecting tron is "unambiguously wrong."
I never said cutting Purge was obviously right, just that your mana was obviously bad.
We can have a separate discussion about Celestial Purge if you'd like: everyone knows Blood Moon is basically mediocre against Tron, so just because that's on the uptick doesn't mean everyone is rushing to Blood Moon as fast as they can. More to the point, what red decks exist now in the format that want to just jam Blood Moon? URx is basically garbage now, we slam Grishoalbrand regardless of whether or not they get to cast Bloom, Burn doesn't run them because they already destroy big mana, Naya Zoo itself has incredibly greedy mana, and Jund usually gets it sideboarded against them, so I doubt that they want it, especially now that Bloom is also gone. There just isn't a tier 1 deck that can run a pile of Blood Moons. Maybe Affinity, but they don't run it 100% of the time, and my board overloads on robots hate anyway.
Anyway, if you're going to get mad when people point out potential problems with your ideas, why even bother sharing them online?
I dropped Celestial Purge. I think it is still an important card vs burn as it creates fuel for processors; it is a 2cmc kill spell against a problem deck, and it is a valuable spell against storm for getting rid of pyromancer's ascension. I do agree that 2 is too much.
There are a few cards I am worried about showing up. Namely Stormchaser Mage. I can see a delver, yp, stormchaser deck forming and Purge will be important there.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Is there a consensus on Eye/Urborg/Map ratios? I've been using 2/2/2 with 24 lands, but I also see a lot of lists with 3/2/0 and 25 lands. Is it mostly preference or is one starting to prove itself as the better choice?
Is there a consensus on Eye/Urborg/Map ratios? I've been using 2/2/2 with 24 lands, but I also see a lot of lists with 3/2/0 and 25 lands. Is it mostly preference or is one starting to prove itself as the better choice?
Definitely preference. I started running 3/2/0 and tested 2/2/2 and haven't looked back. Being able to search up utility lands has just made me feel like I have more keepable openers (who knows if that is accurate or just perception but I am winning more). Especially now that I can move Spellskite to SB I feel like it's fine to run 2 Maps. It also lets me run 3 GQ main which has been great against the RG Tron matchups I have had so far. Seems like any time I can GQ twice in a game.. I can usually come out on top. I will also probably be adding Crucible of Worlds to my SB as a 1 of.
So it was brought up before and I was against it.. now I am thinking I might have flipped sides. What are yalls thoughts on Aven Mindcensor now that Twin is gone? It could take the 2x spot in the MB where Spellskite was and it gives us a more concrete matchup against decks that want to tutor heavily.
Is there a consensus on Eye/Urborg/Map ratios? I've been using 2/2/2 with 24 lands, but I also see a lot of lists with 3/2/0 and 25 lands. Is it mostly preference or is one starting to prove itself as the better choice?
Currently on 3/2/2 with spicy lands like bojuka bog, vault of the archangel, and cavern of souls to fetch up. The utility lands totally justify the map inclusion.
The land base is where Im having some issues as I only have 11 Black sources and 7 White sources. Of course this is shored up with the E-Maps, but I might drop the waste or 1 ghost quarter for another plains or godless shrine.
I added Vault and Tomb of the spirit dragon, because they are great utility lands. I believe that Tomb would be a good anti-aggro/anti-burn tech because with 4 creatures in play I can gain 4 life every turn. I think against burn I think thats enough gas. Plus it provides a waste mana.
The creature list seems right for a midrange and the eldrazi displacer is a place where I wanted to try. It does some combat stuff as well as on ETB effects. I believe a thought-knot seer plus eldrazi displacer means I can sculpt their hand =).
The rest seems pretty straight foward. I would love to hear what you guys think about it. thanks!
This whole archetype has the problem of mana fixing since about 25% of our mana base are dedicated to casting eldrazi spells. Perhaps if there were better fixing lands the base would be better.
I think fetches are still needed to deal with the threat of Blood Moon, and GQ, Map, or Path will be the only way to tutor a Wastes in that scenario. However a 4-of fetches is definitely too many.
Here is my proposed post-Oath land base:
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Vault of the Archabgel
1x Wastes
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Swamp
I don't run Map in the main, but I have a few ways that I can fetch any basic I need, as mentioned above. Running Map takes away from other things I want to do but it might be needed.
This deck's mana base is stretched for sure.
To add to this, its a magus of the moon that doesn't keep us off our color requirements to remove it. Seems pretty bad.
1) The best Blood Moon deck is dead. Get those Celestial Purges out of the SB.
2) We're going to see a lot more aggro and Tron, and a lot less midrange now that one of the natural prey for those decks is gone. Interestingly, I think our response to both these developments is similar - just play lower to the ground. Oblivion Sower was needed to go over the midrange decks, but it's not great versus aggro. Similarly, we can't go over Tron, so Sower isn't really the ideal card - Smasher would actually be better here since we need to race, straight up. For similar reasons, I think we just suck it up and play 4 Stranglers. That's really a key card versus aggro and is another random thing to pressure Tron's life total.
Theorycraft decklist:
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb to Yawgmoth
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Lingering Souls
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Blight Herder
2 Reality Smasher
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Path to Exile
2 Disfigure
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Stony Silence
2 Spellskite
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Kataki, War's Wage
That's zero Maps and 26 lands - I added back the third Eye since we don't have the Maps in this build. Might be wrong, but we're not so reliant on the early Eye with zero 6-drops, so I figured this version of the deck just curves out naturally more often. I think there are still situations where you want access to Ulamog, so I left that in there to tutor for with Eye in games that just naturally go long. We should be able to cast it more reliably with 26 lands anyway. It's possible that should be a Map or a Smasher, though.
My reasoning:
Taps for colorless
Searchable with Map
I assume we usually have at least 3 creatures out on the board between the scions and what nots, so is 2 mana repeatable gain life good enough? Does save me a sideboard slot instead of having to play rest for weary.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=499393 My Sales Thread
For what it's worth, I've been a pretty devoted tron player since the beginning of modern and the one thing we were never particularly worried about was Blood Moon. Others will back me up on this, but the deck is quite happy to just durdle into oblivion stones, nature's claim and even just hardcast wurmcoil engines the good old fashioned way. There's also a bunch of eggs that filter for the colours you need, and 'moon decks tend to be on the slower side (or get slowed down by playing it themselves) so you tend to just not care.
Sowing salt, and now crumble to Dust- those are scary cards. One of those resolves and it's equivalent to being stone-rained twice or even three times by one spell. It's possible to come back from it, but much less likely. It's a bit like Boil for colourless lands.
So i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there'll be less blood moon around.
However; if the Eldrazi deck picks up steam, people will definitely start running moon to combat and slow it down. It probably hurts the bw or bx eldrazi deck more than tron.
Caves of Koilos makes white mana and black mana and colorless mana, so cutting some other things for that makes you have more sources of everything, not fewer. You get to cast everything on time when you run a mana base like what I've proposed. Just count out the sources and compare against Karsten's table. The tradeoff is that it's a little more painful sometimes. But that's not the same as just being straight up unable to cast things.
I never said cutting Purge was obviously right, just that your mana was obviously bad.
We can have a separate discussion about Celestial Purge if you'd like: everyone knows Blood Moon is basically mediocre against Tron, so just because that's on the uptick doesn't mean everyone is rushing to Blood Moon as fast as they can. More to the point, what red decks exist now in the format that want to just jam Blood Moon? URx is basically garbage now, we slam Grishoalbrand regardless of whether or not they get to cast Bloom, Burn doesn't run them because they already destroy big mana, Naya Zoo itself has incredibly greedy mana, and Jund usually gets it sideboarded against them, so I doubt that they want it, especially now that Bloom is also gone. There just isn't a tier 1 deck that can run a pile of Blood Moons. Maybe Affinity, but they don't run it 100% of the time, and my board overloads on robots hate anyway.
Anyway, if you're going to get mad when people point out potential problems with your ideas, why even bother sharing them online?
There are a few cards I am worried about showing up. Namely Stormchaser Mage. I can see a delver, yp, stormchaser deck forming and Purge will be important there.
Definitely preference. I started running 3/2/0 and tested 2/2/2 and haven't looked back. Being able to search up utility lands has just made me feel like I have more keepable openers (who knows if that is accurate or just perception but I am winning more). Especially now that I can move Spellskite to SB I feel like it's fine to run 2 Maps. It also lets me run 3 GQ main which has been great against the RG Tron matchups I have had so far. Seems like any time I can GQ twice in a game.. I can usually come out on top. I will also probably be adding Crucible of Worlds to my SB as a 1 of.
Currently on 3/2/2 with spicy lands like bojuka bog, vault of the archangel, and cavern of souls to fetch up. The utility lands totally justify the map inclusion.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Waste
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Godless Shrine
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
1 Shambling Vents
4 Wasteland Stranger
3 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Ulamog, the Cleaseless Hunger
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Eldrazi Displacer
Spells
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
3 Expedition Map
4 Relic of Pro
The land base is where Im having some issues as I only have 11 Black sources and 7 White sources. Of course this is shored up with the E-Maps, but I might drop the waste or 1 ghost quarter for another plains or godless shrine.
I added Vault and Tomb of the spirit dragon, because they are great utility lands. I believe that Tomb would be a good anti-aggro/anti-burn tech because with 4 creatures in play I can gain 4 life every turn. I think against burn I think thats enough gas. Plus it provides a waste mana.
The creature list seems right for a midrange and the eldrazi displacer is a place where I wanted to try. It does some combat stuff as well as on ETB effects. I believe a thought-knot seer plus eldrazi displacer means I can sculpt their hand =).
The rest seems pretty straight foward. I would love to hear what you guys think about it. thanks!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=499393 My Sales Thread