As far as I can tell, the Sculler build idea is really just going all-in on hand disruption. I want to make that work as well as possible in the early game, when the power of disruption is highest. This means casting IoK/TS on T1 and Sculler on T2 with Seer on T3/4 as often as possible. That pressures the lands no matter how you slice it. Apparently, I am indeed arrogant enough to think that the performing decklists we've seen are not optimized yet in some important ways. So here is what I'm trying out:
Three fetch lands to help with Blood Moon. Three shocks to ensure we don't get dead fetches with only two basics in the deck. I think not running fetches is very poor practice.
24 lands gets us to Seer and Smasher on-curve about 4-5% more often than 23, which this deck arguably supports.
15 sources for B on T1, and 18 ways to get BW on T2. By design, any two of the color-producing lands work to cast T2 Sculler. (The goal for a 90% reliable on-curve Sculler is 20 workable lands, so this is close. And we're over the 14-source T1 goal for IoK/TS.)
11 C-lands exactly hits the 90% on-curve target for Seer. Fetid Heath plays a crucial role in this deck, but quickly gets worse in multiples. One is perfect.
Though Cavern of Souls and Vault of the Archangel were occasionally game-winners on their own, Mutavault is far more frequently relevant than either. I've been liking it a lot, but there is no room for more than 2. Cavern actually works to cast Sculler on T2 just as well as any dual does, so it may still have a role to pay in the build.
One Shambling Vent rounds out the manland package, while still permitting a T2 Sculler.
Ghost Quarter goes away because you can't have everything. GQ vs. Mutavault is probably an important meta decision.
One Eternal Scourge in the flex slot, because of its obvious synergy with Relic and its help in making the deck more threat-dense through recursion. Only three Smashers to lower the curve.
Two Fragmentize SB, because it turns out that this deck is pretty much dead to Leyline of Sanctity, and hitting that for only one mana could be extremely important. Sorcery speed is bad, but this should still help some with Affinity, which looks to be a rough matchup compared to other Processor builds. And it doesn't hurt that it targets Blood Moon as well (as long as we have that Plains, that is... did I mention I think it's important to play fetch lands?).
I played this--not particularly well--on Saturday (14 people, 2-2) and again today (43 people, 3-1) and am feeling out the differences to what I'm used to. The huge amount of hand disruption is very good and I like it. Sculler is skill testing and sometimes just bad, like against Searing Blaze, but overall seems to be better than I thought at first. I think it would not be a good idea to go below about 17 lands to cast it at a bare minimum, though.
The Eldrazi Displacer angle could be quite good, especially with Shriekmaw. (I actually don't think Shriekmaw really makes a lot of sense without Displacer.) But I don't think Matter Reshaper really fits the targeted nature of this build.
What are thoughts on only playing 3 souls in a build with smasher and Eldrazi displacer? Displacer allows you to grind and has a bigger upside than souls.
In addition has anyone been testing Gideon in a smasher build?
I play a 1 of Gideon ally of Zendikar in my side and its been a win more in the matches ive played it. I have dropped him vs jund and a grixis control. Both favourable matches imo. 4 smashers is the lowest I will go on this card its our win con if we fall behind on board presence and I want to see it every game I play.
I love Gideon but it definitely did seem win more. Reality smasher really does allow us to come from behind. Also great against tokens which are problems for most midrange decks
I scrubbed out really hard in GP Vegas (2-4) playing a deck very close to Michael Braverman's 10th place deck from SCG Charlotte. Frustrating since I was straight crushing it in side events the previous day. I had a bye, beat Burn, and lost to Merfolk, Eldrazi Tron, UW Control, and 8-Rack. Against Merfolk and UW control, in two games each match, I got screwed by multiple Spreading Seas...
The deck felt quite good although a bit threat light. Cavern made Tidehollow Sculler reliably castable, but losing Mutavault made it hard to back up the hand disruption with appropriate pressure. For instance, in a match against 8-rack (traditionally a good matchup for midrange Lingering Souls decks), I just couldn't get there since I didn't draw enough threats to outpace my opponent, and I didn't have Mutavault to fall back on. Similarly, in my match against UW Control, I just didn't have enough ways to pressure his planeswalkers, which seemed completely unbeatable every time they resolved (although in fairness, the Spreading Seas issue I mentioned before definitely was relevant). Some of this can be chalked up to variance, like sometimes you play really tight and your draws just don't come together. But it definitely suggests upping the threat count.
That being said, I think Cavern over Mutavault is right because Tidehollow Sculler is just that good and because Ceremonious Rejection is a real card now. People in this thread seem way too worried about the opponent getting the card back, but that's not the point. They usually have to spend a card to get the card back, and the point is that you get to limit their options by taking the appropriate card. For instance, you will sometimes see a hand with Terminate and Push, and you're supposed to take Push so that they have to Terminate your otherwise-non-threatening 2/2 to get their card back (instead of, say, Terminating a Reality Smasher). Another example: you can usually slow Burn down by a turn by taking the most tempo-positive card in their hand like Boros Charm or Lightning Helix. If they leave the Sculler alone, it's better than an Inquisition, and otherwise they have to burn a Bolt and some tempo to get their card back, which has the same effect overall. Sculler makes it so easy to plan your next few turns, I love it.
I would say that it's probably right to just cut some of the maindeck interaction for more creatures that can beat face. Cast Out was actually fine as a maindeck out to random permanents like Karn, and I'd like to keep playing it. The cycling mode is great when you don't need it. I would probably cut the Dismember and the Collective Brutality for the fourth Reality Smasher and some other threat. Both those cards were pretty medium and seemed more like sideboard material. But it's possible you're supposed to cut all 3 one-of's for more threats.
I don't like Displacer since we don't want to take turns off to flicker stuff. Shriekmaw also seems a bit below curve; 3/2 for 5 is just not where we want to be, and its trigger is not a may ability, which means it might get stranded in hand against Grixis Shadow, which is just unacceptable. Hangarback Walker is an old piece of BR Processors tech that might fit the bill in small numbers. Matter Reshaper? Smuggler's Copter?
On the mana side, I hated Fetid Heath, that card plays so awkwardly when you want to use a colored mana on your turn to cast a discard spell or creature but also want to hold up a colored mana for a removal spell on your opponent's turn. At least once I had to time a removal spell incorrectly. Also makes Spreading Seas better against us. Should have just been the fourth Courtyard. Marsh Flats was also great. With full playsets of Cavern, Flats, Courtyard, and Caves, your mana is 100% pristine, everything is always castable, it's great. Perhaps it's too good, and we should get greedy and cut some of it for Mutavaults?!
Also, note I played the 24th land, I really think it's correct. We're trying to cast 5 drops and get full value out of Souls in the late game...
Overall I feel like the deck is really well-positioned and plays great. It just beats the ***** out of Death's Shadow and all the GY decks. I know that's weird to say having just gotten completely wrecked at Vegas, but sometimes you play well and the draws just don't come together. There's a lot of tuning left to be done with this archetype, and I think it's worth working on with Modern so wide open. I refuse to believe that a format where Taking Turns can top 8 is a format where this deck can't.
Reshaper is a faster clock than Souls, but Souls is way better against removal of all kinds and is way grindier. I can think of Eldrazi decks that don't really play Reshaper (e.g. Bant) but I can't think of any BW decks that don't play Souls. Lingering Souls is absolutely one of the best cards in the whole format.
I refuse to believe that this deck is actually competitively viable. There's simply no way that 10 duals plus two Plains and one Swamp (do you want T1 Inquisition or T1 Path, bro?!) is gonna cast your Scullers when you want them. Can we get some of these shaky manabase players on this thread to tell us how the hell they are getting their Scullers out on-curve? Because it just seems like it must be pure luck to me. Or like Iguana, maybe they're GQing their own lands (in a build that's trying to get to 5 for Smasher, no less)?
The List has changed since then, as I did not have access to heath/caverns. Keep in mind - you only see the lists that are successful. Many iterations of testing occur, and usually, especially in a "young" archetype, the successful decks are ALSO experiments that happened to draw well/be played well/get paired against good matchups/any number of factors.
The most successful manabase for me has been -
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed CY
1 Fetid Heath
2 Shambling Vents
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Cavern of Souls
I would be willing to entertain the idea of swapping a GQ for a 4th cavern, and mutavault is another option worth considering.
I have had success with a few variants. Reshaper, like many here have said, puts you on an aggro-esque plan. I don't think lingering souls should be cut in favor of the reshapers, but I am not a huge fan of displacer. In my experience, displacer is usually a 3/3 for 3 that dies quickly, having little to no impact on the game. Of course, there are situations where it is AMAZING, but generally this isnt the deck to abuse the displacer. The taxes shell or Bant are better able to use the flicker as they can abuse flash(vial)/excess mana/better flicker targets.
That being said, many lists have done well with the displacers. I'm sure it is a solid option for those who prefer a longer game with a more controlling aspect.
I think your mana is the best for getting sculler on turn 2. Do you think it's too greedy going down 2 caverns for 2 mutavaults?
In addition, I agree on going up to 4 smashers.
Squeezing in 2 smugglers copters could be really strong. It has great synergy with lingering souls and will help with your dead top decks.
How did you feel about your sideboard? I love mirran crusader but is it really needed in this deck?
As stated before someone was bought Gideon was win more. Would Sorin be more powerful?
Are the additional RIP's needed? Would graffdiggers cage be more versatile?
Also how about ratchet bomb, Lilliana last hope, flaying tendrils to kills tokens and go wide strategies?
Main concern with Copter is that it's such a bad topdeck. It's just the worst on an empty board.
An idea that just came to mind: Pack Rat?! Craig Wescoe beat my ass with Pack Rat + Lingering Souls in day 2 of GP Worcester in 2014, and that's a memory that just bubbled up when I was thinking about this issue. It plays really well with Mutavaults, as well.
Sideboard was just OK, it needs tuning. I basically just made little changes to Braverman's list, but I was not really satisfied. As for specific cards:
- Crusader is an EZ win button versus any black discard deck with Lightning Bolt being so unpopular these days. Loved it.
- Gideon wasn't very good, and Sorin doesn't seem much better. These are cards that made more sense when GBx and blue-based control decks were more prevalent. But now Modern is a format where the best midrange deck is running a pile of one-mana Negates in the maindeck, so I think that's not the angle you want to take. Maybe Blight Herders would be better?
- RiP was my attempt at 100% locking down the graveyard-based matchups and DS matchups since I expected those to be the two most popular kinds of strategies at the GP. Those decks can pace your Relics, especially in post-board games, and I liked having access to them to make sure nothing goes wrong. That being said, they are certainly not addressing weaknesses, and I can understand cutting them if you expect a more diverse field.
- All your sweeper suggestions seem totally reasonable, and I have no idea which is best. I like Liliana, the Last Hope the most since in addition to being a good x/1 killer, I can actually imagine sneaking it under Stubborn Denial to out-grind DS decks. A second Damnation might also be a reasonable choice.
- One thing I felt was missing in the sideboard was some sort of Needle effect. Planeswalkers are really good against us.
EDIT: regarding Mutavault, if I were to make room for 2 Mutavault, I'd probably try cutting 2 Courtyards just because those coming into play tapped as your fourth land sometimes screws you out of an on-curve Smasher, i.e. the drawback is real in this deck.
My loss in the top 8 was to burn, I was on the play with a turn 2 rat and my opponent goes "You know a creature is powerful when I have to use a lightning bolt to kill it". I lost that match. The majority of the day people just ignored the rat thinking it was a standard card and I was just some noob. It is a good card.
I personally think the best way to beat big mana is hand disruption. I think this decks biggest weakness myself is revolt zoo/8wack type decks. I'm not big on cavern of souls myself I play like 18 spells with black and white the last thing I want is 2 caverns in my hand. I think I would play 2 max if I played them at all. I like fragmentize a lot in the sideboard as 1 or 2 of I am also very fond of surgical extraction I think the card is amazing. I am running a pretty traditional 4 reality smasher list I am actually tempted to run like hangarback walker and a couple blight herders in my side to change up my deck a bit. I also gonna test out kalitas because I think that card helps out our worst match up, might try 1 main 1 side.
I am really on the fence about fetid heath I want to invest in one but I can definetly see some issues. Hwever I think it pulls more weight then problems it causes.
1) Go-wide creature decks like Company, Elves, and Merfolk are currently not addressed adequately by current builds, but I think those matchups are very fixable without conceding too much in other matchups. We just need to run some sweepers.
2) Pure control decks. I know we beat the more midrangy snapcaster decks pretty badly, but it felt awful to look across the table from 6-drop Elspeth or Gideon, AOZ. We need some plan against counterspells-into-planeswalkers, and I think there are many playable options here. Needles, Vindicate effects, O Ring effects, etc. I don't know what is the right idea. Actually Pack Rat maindeck might be very helpful here since it sort of forces them to find Supreme Verdict or bust.
3) Big mana decks. Tron and Valakut have just always been hard matchups for midrange decks and require significant concessions in other matchups since you need to play so many cards to turn those matchups around. Historically, Jund players who really wanted to beat Tron had to play like 4 Fulminators and 2 Slaughter Games. But it's not even clear to me that this is enough since Eldrazi Tron is the most popular big mana deck now. Eldrazi Tron can operate perfectly well without Tron online, so even the traditional choices like Fulminator Mage or Ghost Quarter may not be good, and Karn isn't as good of a name with Slaughter Games (or in our case, Cranial Extraction) as it is against traditional Tron. I have to be honest, I don't know how we would fix that matchup even in principle. I think the strategy is to just strip their hand, race as fast as you can, and hope they draw too many bricks before we kill them.
All things considered, I think you can't gear your deck to beat everything, and right now, I'd rather concede the Etron matchup in the current metagame than the wide creature matchups + dedicated control matchups. That being said, it's possible we can somehow gear the deck to go underneath them better, which should theoretically also help out against Control, but I don't know how to do this well off the top of my head.
As for specific cards:
Have not tested Eternal Scourge. Have looked at Knight of Glory, and it's just worse than Crusader in this build IMO. With my mana base, Crusader is just as castable, it's a slightly faster clock, and it has applications against more traditional BGx decks as well. Reality Smasher is already as big or bigger than everything except a powered up DS, so I'm not sure Exalted really matters.
I do like caverns in a creature heavy build because it smoothed out the mana and also beats ceremonious rejection which is becoming not popular and cryptic command which can be backbreaking.
Against the go wide creature decks we can play ratchet bomb,EE, flaying tendrils, zealous persecution. Damnation is too slow against these decks. In addition is is weak to Eldrazi tron due to TKS. Most GBx decks are no longer played nf damnations because of this.
Against control the best cards are Thoughtseize, Eldrazi displacer (draw step blink), Lilliana the Veil
Against big mana I think our disruption is key. I am honestly ok conceding those matchups because I think fulminator is terrible against e tron. It was much better with surgicals when tron was rg.
Good points about Kalitas. It's amazing against elves, Merfolk and even good against arcbound ravager. Problem with kalitas is that we play too many exile effects to really take advantage of it. In addition it's great with dark confidant in GBx when you will usually have some sort of removal in hand.
It seems like planeswalkers are a problems but the reality smasher really helps. I do like castout because it is versatile. With the mana being shaky cast out seems better than anguished unmaking and o ring.
What do you like surgical extraction against. Most top players have been trashing the card. Saying it's negative card advantage and often a dead card.
Awesome play report, iostream! Thanks. I like your land package, looks like the only barrier to T2 Sculler is having Temple or both Swamps in a two-land keep. Seems to me you could cut Fetid Heath for another dual (a shock maybe?) since you have all those Caverns for C. I agree that threat density is important, though, which is why I like the Mutavaults for now. The fact that Eternal Scourge is so hard to get rid of has also seemed to help me with my threat density. I love Pithing Needle in the side BTW, but I also love having Anguished Unmaking in the 75. Cast Out seems like a reasonable replacement for Unmaking, especially in the main. Both Needle and Cast Out (and O=Ring) seem much worse than Unmaking against UW Control, though, which can bounce with Cryptic Command and also neutralize permanent-based hate with Detention Sphere.
SovereignMars, welcome and thanks for stopping by (I'm the guy who spoke up on reddit). I dig your newer manabase much better than the old one. My experience with Displacer dovetails with yours. Hope you'll continue to post up as you play and tune your list.
jwf239: Ha, I was running a BW Midrange build for quite a while that used Pack Rat (and also Percy) as win cons. Then the original BW Processors list (with Herder and Oblivion Sower) popped up, and I've been trying to make this a thing ever since. Feels like I'm coming full circle to see that idea pop up again.
Surgical can be a blow out. I was play testing with a friend the other day and he kept a hand of 1 land 3 serum visions he was on cheerios. A turn 1 hand disruption into surgical serum visions just wins. Its narrow which is true but its also great against all DS variants to remove their top threat after you have dealt with one. Its great against goryos vengeance decks that can go off turn 2. Its just a really great versatile card that keeps spiking in price because its good. Its not everyones playstyle sure but its a great card that comes in vs all DS variants all combo decks and all GY decks this is enough of the meta for a 2 slot in the SB I think.
I am running a cast out and 2 pithing needle ( I debate between 1 and 2 all the time). I am gonna up my build to include 2 ratchet bombs 1 main 1 side and I'm gonna put 2 thoughtseize in my side. Current sideboard will look something like this. 2 Surgical Extractions, 1 Gideon Ally of Zendikar (might switch for a lil the last hope), 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Kalitas, 2 pithing needle, 1 cast out, 2 fragmentize, 1 Stony silence, 2 blessed alliance, 2 Thoughtseize. Try running something like this. I don't think this board helps a lot vs Gx Tron but I'm a big believer in ignoring your worst match ups other then stuff that's useful in other matches as well. 2 good players main deck Gx tron at my local as well so will report back after further testing. One thing to note is I think the eldrazi tron match up is closer to 50/50 ive played it quite a bit now and hand disruption is great as well as sideboard options. I'm not on destroy lands vs tron variants at all I think that's a losing strategy even with surgical extractions.
I just got on this deck on a whim a couple weeks ago so its great to see such interesting conversations happening and the deck putting up results.
That list I posted was when M15 dropped, before the new eldrazi were printed. No longer have the budget concerns that I had back then. I've been back and forth between the more traditional deadguy ale type deck, and a hybrid of that and eldrazi processor. I really just wish they would unban stoneforge so we can use her to grab grafted wargear because the card is awesome with percy and souls tokens. I feel the deadguy ale list would be a tier 1 deck with her.
For tron I just try to strip their hand with discard and tidehollows while beating in with them and mutavaults. Pack rat helped here by being a quick clock that they really only have one turn to answer properly. Post board LtLH shenanigans with fulminator can help but without early discard you will just fall behind. It's a bad matchup for sure, but it isn't unwinnable.
I think the big strength of this strategy over something like Jund is that we can afford to play more colorless sources like ghost quarters and mutavaults. If you can manage T1 discard, T2 tidehollow, T3 LotV you should be in a good spot to allow mutavaults to speed up the clock or ghost quarter to slow them down. Eldrazi tron certainly is tougher than the old tron lists which weren't a good matchup to begin with, but again it isn't unwinnable.
I'm leaning toward the more traditional dead guy ale lists at the moment because I think it is better against our bad matchups while not being that much worse against our good ones, but that is likely more my bias towards just liking the dead guy ale list better and being sick of eldrazi.
I don't like Kalitas in either list. We run too many exile effects to truly get the full benefit of him; I'd just prefer a board wipe in the matches where you want him.
I did a little bit of testing with hidden stockpile in the dead guy list and it was actually pretty good. It's a hard to get rid of threat that can really slow the game down to a halt where we shine. If you can get two of them out it can really help the deck turn the corner. I also really liked the synergy with bob (helps mitigate the damage from him by scrying and can sac him when you get low on life) and percy.
EDIT: @ Deadrift. I remember you from the old BW thread a few years ago when we had the naming poll for the deck (still sour my BW attrition name didn't win). Glad to see you're still enjoying the deck. I'm usually not one of those "there is a secretly awesome underplayed deck!" kind of people, but if there is one I think it is some form of BW midrange.
Awesome play report, iostream! Thanks. I like your land package, looks like the only barrier to T2 Sculler is having Temple or both Swamps in a two-land keep. Seems to me you could cut Fetid Heath for another dual (a shock maybe?) since you have all those Caverns for C. I agree that threat density is important, though, which is why I like the Mutavaults for now. The fact that Eternal Scourge is so hard to get rid of has also seemed to help me with my threat density. I love Pithing Needle in the side BTW, but I also love having Anguished Unmaking in the 75. Cast Out seems like a reasonable replacement for Unmaking, especially in the main. Both Needle and Cast Out (and O=Ring) seem much worse than Unmaking against UW Control, though, which can bounce with Cryptic Command and also neutralize permanent-based hate with Detention Sphere.
Heath for another dual is probably fine, although I'd really like to squeeze in a Mutavault or two. But I'd like to go on a quick aside about playing multiple shocklands, since I think this is a mistake:
- I don't like the second Godless Shrine. As soon as you have one, the second immediately becomes a painful draw, and in my mana base you have 4 Flats to find it. I really don't think you need 2 of these.
- In general, from playing a ton of Legacy, I strongly prefer to play fewer targets than fetches. Just look at any Legacy land base, there are always at least as many fetches as targets, even in decks that don't run Brainstorm. This is because the fetch is always better to draw than any of its targets since the fetch can get any target, and if you have no targets, it means you have a lot of lands in play.
- I only play 4 targets because I want enough basics to fetch against Path to Exile. If I never had to play through Path, I'd probably cut the second Swamp.
Anyway, about Mutavault:
I was looking through some of my old BW writeups (for instance, this one), and I think we can afford to be somewhat greedier. I'll test the following manabase:
Counting Cavern, there are 17 black sources and 16 white sources, and without Cavern there are 13 black and 12 white sources. A more conservative person might run a split between Cavern and Mutavault instead of Concealed Courtyard and Mutavault, but I really want to cast Reality Smasheron curve. This mana base is a bit greedy for a deck that's trying to cast turn 1 Thoughtseize, but not greedier than what I was playing in February 2016
I'll give this a shot (with Pack Rats!) at a local Modern 1k in a week and a half.
As for Cast Out versus alternatives, I agree that it's not the best type of this effect against UW control, but I think it's the most maindeckable choice since it cycles.
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https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/678093#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/678004#paper
This deck went 7-1 in modern ptq.
The reality smasher lists seems to be having the most success. Anyone else been playing similar lists? Trying to figure out the optimal lands package.
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Fetid Heath
3x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
2x Mutavault
1x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
Creature (16)
1x Eternal Scourge
3x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wasteland Strangler
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (9)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
Artifact (4)
4x Relic of Progenitus
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
2x Fragmentize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Stony Silence
The Eldrazi Displacer angle could be quite good, especially with Shriekmaw. (I actually don't think Shriekmaw really makes a lot of sense without Displacer.) But I don't think Matter Reshaper really fits the targeted nature of this build.
The best mana so far has been playing 4 cavern of souls. I would still love to find a way to squeeze in some mutavaults.
I have been having success with this exact manabase.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670977#paper
What are thoughts on only playing 3 souls in a build with smasher and Eldrazi displacer? Displacer allows you to grind and has a bigger upside than souls.
In addition has anyone been testing Gideon in a smasher build?
My decklist was:
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Concealed Courtyard
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Cast Out
1 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Lingering Souls
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Wasteland Strangler
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Disenchant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
The deck felt quite good although a bit threat light. Cavern made Tidehollow Sculler reliably castable, but losing Mutavault made it hard to back up the hand disruption with appropriate pressure. For instance, in a match against 8-rack (traditionally a good matchup for midrange Lingering Souls decks), I just couldn't get there since I didn't draw enough threats to outpace my opponent, and I didn't have Mutavault to fall back on. Similarly, in my match against UW Control, I just didn't have enough ways to pressure his planeswalkers, which seemed completely unbeatable every time they resolved (although in fairness, the Spreading Seas issue I mentioned before definitely was relevant). Some of this can be chalked up to variance, like sometimes you play really tight and your draws just don't come together. But it definitely suggests upping the threat count.
That being said, I think Cavern over Mutavault is right because Tidehollow Sculler is just that good and because Ceremonious Rejection is a real card now. People in this thread seem way too worried about the opponent getting the card back, but that's not the point. They usually have to spend a card to get the card back, and the point is that you get to limit their options by taking the appropriate card. For instance, you will sometimes see a hand with Terminate and Push, and you're supposed to take Push so that they have to Terminate your otherwise-non-threatening 2/2 to get their card back (instead of, say, Terminating a Reality Smasher). Another example: you can usually slow Burn down by a turn by taking the most tempo-positive card in their hand like Boros Charm or Lightning Helix. If they leave the Sculler alone, it's better than an Inquisition, and otherwise they have to burn a Bolt and some tempo to get their card back, which has the same effect overall. Sculler makes it so easy to plan your next few turns, I love it.
I would say that it's probably right to just cut some of the maindeck interaction for more creatures that can beat face. Cast Out was actually fine as a maindeck out to random permanents like Karn, and I'd like to keep playing it. The cycling mode is great when you don't need it. I would probably cut the Dismember and the Collective Brutality for the fourth Reality Smasher and some other threat. Both those cards were pretty medium and seemed more like sideboard material. But it's possible you're supposed to cut all 3 one-of's for more threats.
I don't like Displacer since we don't want to take turns off to flicker stuff. Shriekmaw also seems a bit below curve; 3/2 for 5 is just not where we want to be, and its trigger is not a may ability, which means it might get stranded in hand against Grixis Shadow, which is just unacceptable. Hangarback Walker is an old piece of BR Processors tech that might fit the bill in small numbers. Matter Reshaper? Smuggler's Copter?
On the mana side, I hated Fetid Heath, that card plays so awkwardly when you want to use a colored mana on your turn to cast a discard spell or creature but also want to hold up a colored mana for a removal spell on your opponent's turn. At least once I had to time a removal spell incorrectly. Also makes Spreading Seas better against us. Should have just been the fourth Courtyard. Marsh Flats was also great. With full playsets of Cavern, Flats, Courtyard, and Caves, your mana is 100% pristine, everything is always castable, it's great. Perhaps it's too good, and we should get greedy and cut some of it for Mutavaults?!
Also, note I played the 24th land, I really think it's correct. We're trying to cast 5 drops and get full value out of Souls in the late game...
Overall I feel like the deck is really well-positioned and plays great. It just beats the ***** out of Death's Shadow and all the GY decks. I know that's weird to say having just gotten completely wrecked at Vegas, but sometimes you play well and the draws just don't come together. There's a lot of tuning left to be done with this archetype, and I think it's worth working on with Modern so wide open. I refuse to believe that a format where Taking Turns can top 8 is a format where this deck can't.
I think your mana is the best for getting sculler on turn 2. Do you think it's too greedy going down 2 caverns for 2 mutavaults?
In addition, I agree on going up to 4 smashers.
Squeezing in 2 smugglers copters could be really strong. It has great synergy with lingering souls and will help with your dead top decks.
How did you feel about your sideboard? I love mirran crusader but is it really needed in this deck?
As stated before someone was bought Gideon was win more. Would Sorin be more powerful?
Are the additional RIP's needed? Would graffdiggers cage be more versatile?
Also how about ratchet bomb, Lilliana last hope, flaying tendrils to kills tokens and go wide strategies?
Smugglers copter also goes really well with tidehollow sculler and mutavaults. If we could get the mana correct I think we are really onto something.
The List has changed since then, as I did not have access to heath/caverns. Keep in mind - you only see the lists that are successful. Many iterations of testing occur, and usually, especially in a "young" archetype, the successful decks are ALSO experiments that happened to draw well/be played well/get paired against good matchups/any number of factors.
The most successful manabase for me has been -
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed CY
1 Fetid Heath
2 Shambling Vents
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Cavern of Souls
I would be willing to entertain the idea of swapping a GQ for a 4th cavern, and mutavault is another option worth considering.
I have had success with a few variants. Reshaper, like many here have said, puts you on an aggro-esque plan. I don't think lingering souls should be cut in favor of the reshapers, but I am not a huge fan of displacer. In my experience, displacer is usually a 3/3 for 3 that dies quickly, having little to no impact on the game. Of course, there are situations where it is AMAZING, but generally this isnt the deck to abuse the displacer. The taxes shell or Bant are better able to use the flicker as they can abuse flash(vial)/excess mana/better flicker targets.
That being said, many lists have done well with the displacers. I'm sure it is a solid option for those who prefer a longer game with a more controlling aspect.
Main concern with Copter is that it's such a bad topdeck. It's just the worst on an empty board.
An idea that just came to mind: Pack Rat?! Craig Wescoe beat my ass with Pack Rat + Lingering Souls in day 2 of GP Worcester in 2014, and that's a memory that just bubbled up when I was thinking about this issue. It plays really well with Mutavaults, as well.
Sideboard was just OK, it needs tuning. I basically just made little changes to Braverman's list, but I was not really satisfied. As for specific cards:
- Crusader is an EZ win button versus any black discard deck with Lightning Bolt being so unpopular these days. Loved it.
- Gideon wasn't very good, and Sorin doesn't seem much better. These are cards that made more sense when GBx and blue-based control decks were more prevalent. But now Modern is a format where the best midrange deck is running a pile of one-mana Negates in the maindeck, so I think that's not the angle you want to take. Maybe Blight Herders would be better?
- RiP was my attempt at 100% locking down the graveyard-based matchups and DS matchups since I expected those to be the two most popular kinds of strategies at the GP. Those decks can pace your Relics, especially in post-board games, and I liked having access to them to make sure nothing goes wrong. That being said, they are certainly not addressing weaknesses, and I can understand cutting them if you expect a more diverse field.
- All your sweeper suggestions seem totally reasonable, and I have no idea which is best. I like Liliana, the Last Hope the most since in addition to being a good x/1 killer, I can actually imagine sneaking it under Stubborn Denial to out-grind DS decks. A second Damnation might also be a reasonable choice.
- One thing I felt was missing in the sideboard was some sort of Needle effect. Planeswalkers are really good against us.
EDIT: regarding Mutavault, if I were to make room for 2 Mutavault, I'd probably try cutting 2 Courtyards just because those coming into play tapped as your fourth land sometimes screws you out of an on-curve Smasher, i.e. the drawback is real in this deck.
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/mtg/decks/eventdecks/khans-of-tarkir-ptq-roanoke/jason-freischlag/wb-midrange
My loss in the top 8 was to burn, I was on the play with a turn 2 rat and my opponent goes "You know a creature is powerful when I have to use a lightning bolt to kill it". I lost that match. The majority of the day people just ignored the rat thinking it was a standard card and I was just some noob. It is a good card.
Maybe matter reshapers are the way to go.
Have you ever tried out eternal scourge?
Knight of glory seems interesting. Has anyone tested this?
Reality smashers with exalted sound really good to me.
I guess we have to analyze what our weakest matchups are.
From my experience I would say big mana decks such as tron, etron, scapeshift are really bad matchups.
I also find elves to be a somewhat difficult matchup
Reality smashers make matchups against planeswalkers and tokens easier.
Easy matchups are GBx midrange, burn, snapcaster decks.
Its easy to get caught up in win more cards and not focus on cards that improve your weakness.
With that in mind. What do you think?
I am really on the fence about fetid heath I want to invest in one but I can definetly see some issues. Hwever I think it pulls more weight then problems it causes.
1) Go-wide creature decks like Company, Elves, and Merfolk are currently not addressed adequately by current builds, but I think those matchups are very fixable without conceding too much in other matchups. We just need to run some sweepers.
2) Pure control decks. I know we beat the more midrangy snapcaster decks pretty badly, but it felt awful to look across the table from 6-drop Elspeth or Gideon, AOZ. We need some plan against counterspells-into-planeswalkers, and I think there are many playable options here. Needles, Vindicate effects, O Ring effects, etc. I don't know what is the right idea. Actually Pack Rat maindeck might be very helpful here since it sort of forces them to find Supreme Verdict or bust.
3) Big mana decks. Tron and Valakut have just always been hard matchups for midrange decks and require significant concessions in other matchups since you need to play so many cards to turn those matchups around. Historically, Jund players who really wanted to beat Tron had to play like 4 Fulminators and 2 Slaughter Games. But it's not even clear to me that this is enough since Eldrazi Tron is the most popular big mana deck now. Eldrazi Tron can operate perfectly well without Tron online, so even the traditional choices like Fulminator Mage or Ghost Quarter may not be good, and Karn isn't as good of a name with Slaughter Games (or in our case, Cranial Extraction) as it is against traditional Tron. I have to be honest, I don't know how we would fix that matchup even in principle. I think the strategy is to just strip their hand, race as fast as you can, and hope they draw too many bricks before we kill them.
All things considered, I think you can't gear your deck to beat everything, and right now, I'd rather concede the Etron matchup in the current metagame than the wide creature matchups + dedicated control matchups. That being said, it's possible we can somehow gear the deck to go underneath them better, which should theoretically also help out against Control, but I don't know how to do this well off the top of my head.
As for specific cards:
Have not tested Eternal Scourge. Have looked at Knight of Glory, and it's just worse than Crusader in this build IMO. With my mana base, Crusader is just as castable, it's a slightly faster clock, and it has applications against more traditional BGx decks as well. Reality Smasher is already as big or bigger than everything except a powered up DS, so I'm not sure Exalted really matters.
I do like caverns in a creature heavy build because it smoothed out the mana and also beats ceremonious rejection which is becoming not popular and cryptic command which can be backbreaking.
Against the go wide creature decks we can play ratchet bomb,EE, flaying tendrils, zealous persecution. Damnation is too slow against these decks. In addition is is weak to Eldrazi tron due to TKS. Most GBx decks are no longer played nf damnations because of this.
Against control the best cards are Thoughtseize, Eldrazi displacer (draw step blink), Lilliana the Veil
Against big mana I think our disruption is key. I am honestly ok conceding those matchups because I think fulminator is terrible against e tron. It was much better with surgicals when tron was rg.
Good points about Kalitas. It's amazing against elves, Merfolk and even good against arcbound ravager. Problem with kalitas is that we play too many exile effects to really take advantage of it. In addition it's great with dark confidant in GBx when you will usually have some sort of removal in hand.
It seems like planeswalkers are a problems but the reality smasher really helps. I do like castout because it is versatile. With the mana being shaky cast out seems better than anguished unmaking and o ring.
What do you like surgical extraction against. Most top players have been trashing the card. Saying it's negative card advantage and often a dead card.
SovereignMars, welcome and thanks for stopping by (I'm the guy who spoke up on reddit). I dig your newer manabase much better than the old one. My experience with Displacer dovetails with yours. Hope you'll continue to post up as you play and tune your list.
jwf239: Ha, I was running a BW Midrange build for quite a while that used Pack Rat (and also Percy) as win cons. Then the original BW Processors list (with Herder and Oblivion Sower) popped up, and I've been trying to make this a thing ever since. Feels like I'm coming full circle to see that idea pop up again.
I am running a cast out and 2 pithing needle ( I debate between 1 and 2 all the time). I am gonna up my build to include 2 ratchet bombs 1 main 1 side and I'm gonna put 2 thoughtseize in my side. Current sideboard will look something like this. 2 Surgical Extractions, 1 Gideon Ally of Zendikar (might switch for a lil the last hope), 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Kalitas, 2 pithing needle, 1 cast out, 2 fragmentize, 1 Stony silence, 2 blessed alliance, 2 Thoughtseize. Try running something like this. I don't think this board helps a lot vs Gx Tron but I'm a big believer in ignoring your worst match ups other then stuff that's useful in other matches as well. 2 good players main deck Gx tron at my local as well so will report back after further testing. One thing to note is I think the eldrazi tron match up is closer to 50/50 ive played it quite a bit now and hand disruption is great as well as sideboard options. I'm not on destroy lands vs tron variants at all I think that's a losing strategy even with surgical extractions.
I just got on this deck on a whim a couple weeks ago so its great to see such interesting conversations happening and the deck putting up results.
For tron I just try to strip their hand with discard and tidehollows while beating in with them and mutavaults. Pack rat helped here by being a quick clock that they really only have one turn to answer properly. Post board LtLH shenanigans with fulminator can help but without early discard you will just fall behind. It's a bad matchup for sure, but it isn't unwinnable.
I think the big strength of this strategy over something like Jund is that we can afford to play more colorless sources like ghost quarters and mutavaults. If you can manage T1 discard, T2 tidehollow, T3 LotV you should be in a good spot to allow mutavaults to speed up the clock or ghost quarter to slow them down. Eldrazi tron certainly is tougher than the old tron lists which weren't a good matchup to begin with, but again it isn't unwinnable.
I'm leaning toward the more traditional dead guy ale lists at the moment because I think it is better against our bad matchups while not being that much worse against our good ones, but that is likely more my bias towards just liking the dead guy ale list better and being sick of eldrazi.
I don't like Kalitas in either list. We run too many exile effects to truly get the full benefit of him; I'd just prefer a board wipe in the matches where you want him.
I did a little bit of testing with hidden stockpile in the dead guy list and it was actually pretty good. It's a hard to get rid of threat that can really slow the game down to a halt where we shine. If you can get two of them out it can really help the deck turn the corner. I also really liked the synergy with bob (helps mitigate the damage from him by scrying and can sac him when you get low on life) and percy.
EDIT: @ Deadrift. I remember you from the old BW thread a few years ago when we had the naming poll for the deck (still sour my BW attrition name didn't win). Glad to see you're still enjoying the deck. I'm usually not one of those "there is a secretly awesome underplayed deck!" kind of people, but if there is one I think it is some form of BW midrange.
- I don't like the second Godless Shrine. As soon as you have one, the second immediately becomes a painful draw, and in my mana base you have 4 Flats to find it. I really don't think you need 2 of these.
- In general, from playing a ton of Legacy, I strongly prefer to play fewer targets than fetches. Just look at any Legacy land base, there are always at least as many fetches as targets, even in decks that don't run Brainstorm. This is because the fetch is always better to draw than any of its targets since the fetch can get any target, and if you have no targets, it means you have a lot of lands in play.
- I only play 4 targets because I want enough basics to fetch against Path to Exile. If I never had to play through Path, I'd probably cut the second Swamp.
Anyway, about Mutavault:
I was looking through some of my old BW writeups (for instance, this one), and I think we can afford to be somewhat greedier. I'll test the following manabase:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Concealed Courtyard
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
1 Plains
2 Swamp
Counting Cavern, there are 17 black sources and 16 white sources, and without Cavern there are 13 black and 12 white sources. A more conservative person might run a split between Cavern and Mutavault instead of Concealed Courtyard and Mutavault, but I really want to cast Reality Smasheron curve. This mana base is a bit greedy for a deck that's trying to cast turn 1 Thoughtseize, but not greedier than what I was playing in February 2016
I'll give this a shot (with Pack Rats!) at a local Modern 1k in a week and a half.
As for Cast Out versus alternatives, I agree that it's not the best type of this effect against UW control, but I think it's the most maindeckable choice since it cycles.