Extra T1 discard is real, real good--I had room for 5 in that build, compared to 3 in my current deck. This helped a lot against some combo decks I played.
Sculler is extremely good as a T2 play followed by T3 Strangler, but it is very greedy in the manabase--I felt I only had room for 6 colorless-only lands (4x Temple and 2x GQ). No Cavern, no Vault, no Wreckage, one less GQ.
When using Herder, it is much harder to side out Relics. Herder is greedy for processing fodder, and it is so hard to get without Relic in play. This leads to keeping Relic in the 60 post-SB even in cases where its only function is to enable Herder instead of to interfere with the opponent's plans. No bueno.
Herder is still an amazing play when it processes. But it is still challenging to turn that on sometimes. Sculler and Path aren't really enough, especially if you're also trying to get value out of Strangler a turn or two before you're trying to also get value out of Herder. This makes me wonder about swapping out one Relic for a main-deck Surgical Extraction which can often get 4 cards into exile very early on, especially with all the hand disruption. It can also occasionally shut an opponent down if they have a key primary wincon (Bridge in Lantern, Titan in RG Valakut decks, etc.)
I definitely missed haste and trample in a couple of situations (against Nahiri and other planeswalkers, when at 3 and topdecking vs. Burn).
Working hypothesis: The choice of 5-drop finisher is meta-dependent. Corollary: Smasher and Sculler don't fit into the same deck. Herder is higher ceiling in some matchups (vs. control, vs. Suspend decks, vs. lots of targeted removal, vs. Blood Moon) and Smasher is higher ceiling in others (vs. Burn, vs. planeswalkers, oftentimes in late-game topdeck wars). Herder is lower floor though overall, because it's really pretty bad compared to Smasher if it doesn't process.
I'll probably keep testing the Sculler/Herder build, right now the jury (in my courtroom at least) is out. The crucial factor might turn out to be how much control and combo I start to see--Herder and lots of hand disruption are both very good against these decks.
Glad to see you finally testing out tidehollow sculler!!!!!!! You really need to add some eldrazi displacers to the deck so you can do the displacer + tidehollow combo on their draw step. I feel that wasteland strangler is a good card and amazing when you curve out. However, it is not a great end-game top-deck card and not the greatest at pushing your guys through their defenses. Displacer, on the other hand, is a great card throughout the game. It is extremly powerful to be able to flicker their creatures on their turn and freely attack the following turn. If you want to give tidehollow a fair shot, I would try something like this:
Or something from a previous post when I was brewing with fatal push.
I should add that I think that tidehollow is in a REALLY bad spot right now. Too many fatal pushes and k-command's running around.
I am also glad that people are starting to add more discard to the main board. It was always weird to me that people started cutting thoughtseize and iok. We want to get cards in their graveyard to exile then process. It is a core part of the deck. I would say that 6 discard spells is mandatory for a processor deck. With the iteration of the deck that I listed above, you have 9 ways to get in the opponents hand. That should be a nightmare for control.
I had a lot of fun with it and went 2-1-1 as follows:
1-1 vs Abzan Coco/GW Hatebears rogue brew (tough, actually went to turns and drew) [EDIT: Turns out this was Abzan Cocowisp, another deck under development in the mtgsalvation forums. Can be found here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/686228-abzan-cocowisp]
2-0 vs Mono White Humans Aggro
2-0 vs Ad Nauseum (seemed like a very favourable match-up. Wasteland strangler ate a lotus bloom and burped it out of the exile zone g1. g2 Inquisition on phyrezian unlife into surgical extraction seemed to do the trick).
1-2 vs Jund (I don't know either. I thought this would be a more favourable match-up but apparently Kalitas messes up our Matter Reshapers and that lifegain puts them back up from behind the game. Found myself wishing I had Anguished Unmaking instead of Oblivion Ring. In future, I will have more dismembers and less discard in the SB and will board out the reshapers purely because of kalitas).
[EDIT: There were around 23 players and I ended up 8th overall.]
I will probably be trying the deck again at the next fnm
If anyone could give me some pointers on sideboarding with this deck or if anyone could lead me to some pointers, it would be very much appreciated.
Otherwise, any tips on improving my list and grinding out Jund/Abzan midrange would be very much appreciated (I'm very aggro oriented and inexperienced with a deck like ours).
I briefly recall seeing Eldrazi Displacer discussed over here but the consensus seemed to be that we want Lingering Souls over it despite the pseudo-lock with thought-knot seer, because Lingering Souls helps us trade more favourably and on our own terms with other midrange decks and helps chump aggro? I can definitely see the logic behind that but I was wondering if someone hasn't tried a version with displacer and found themselves liking it at all? (I saw this video with Corbin Hosler playing a Mardu variant that ran Eldrazi Displacer with Hangarback Walker so that has got my attention: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13671&writer=Corbin Hosler&articledate=12-12-2016)
Other than that, thank you all for developing this really neat, under-appreciated deck and let's hope we can push this thing closer to the top of the charts!
To me, your sideboard is a mess. We don't really need any additional graveyard hate because we run relics mainboard. If you are trying to ghost quarter tron's land then use surgical extraction that is your call. To me adding surgical dilutes the deck to much. With Tron we want to rip apart their hand with thoughtseize AND apply pressure. You can look at some previous posts here where deaddrift and I discussed the Tron matchup.
You can also tone down the number of life gain cards in your sideboard. Collective brutality is the best card (by far) that we have against burn. It absolutely wrecks them. All three modes are relevant. If you have 2 (total) you should be okay. I think that deaddrift talked about the sideboard more in depth than the primer in a previous post, but I cannot remember for sure.
Extra T1 discard is real, real good--I had room for 5 in that build, compared to 3 in my current deck. This helped a lot against some combo decks I played.
Sculler is extremely good as a T2 play followed by T3 Strangler, but it is very greedy in the manabase--I felt I only had room for 6 colorless-only lands (4x Temple and 2x GQ). No Cavern, no Vault, no Wreckage, one less GQ.
When using Herder, it is much harder to side out Relics. Herder is greedy for processing fodder, and it is so hard to get without Relic in play. This leads to keeping Relic in the 60 post-SB even in cases where its only function is to enable Herder instead of to interfere with the opponent's plans. No bueno.
Herder is still an amazing play when it processes. But it is still challenging to turn that on sometimes. Sculler and Path aren't really enough, especially if you're also trying to get value out of Strangler a turn or two before you're trying to also get value out of Herder. This makes me wonder about swapping out one Relic for a main-deck Surgical Extraction which can often get 4 cards into exile very early on, especially with all the hand disruption. It can also occasionally shut an opponent down if they have a key primary wincon (Bridge in Lantern, Titan in RG Valakut decks, etc.)
I definitely missed haste and trample in a couple of situations (against Nahiri and other planeswalkers, when at 3 and topdecking vs. Burn).
Working hypothesis: The choice of 5-drop finisher is meta-dependent. Corollary: Smasher and Sculler don't fit into the same deck. Herder is higher ceiling in some matchups (vs. control, vs. Suspend decks, vs. lots of targeted removal, vs. Blood Moon) and Smasher is higher ceiling in others (vs. Burn, vs. planeswalkers, oftentimes in late-game topdeck wars). Herder is lower floor though overall, because it's really pretty bad compared to Smasher if it doesn't process.
I'll probably keep testing the Sculler/Herder build, right now the jury (in my courtroom at least) is out. The crucial factor might turn out to be how much control and combo I start to see--Herder and lots of hand disruption are both very good against these decks.
Glad to see you finally testing out tidehollow sculler!!!!!!! You really need to add some eldrazi displacers to the deck so you can do the displacer + tidehollow combo on their draw step. I feel that wasteland strangler is a good card and amazing when you curve out. However, it is not a great end-game top-deck card and not the greatest at pushing your guys through their defenses. Displacer, on the other hand, is a great card throughout the game. It is extremly powerful to be able to flicker their creatures on their turn and freely attack the following turn. If you want to give tidehollow a fair shot, I would try something like this:
Or something from a previous post when I was brewing with fatal push.
I should add that I think that tidehollow is in a REALLY bad spot right now. Too many fatal pushes and k-command's running around.
I am also glad that people are starting to add more discard to the main board. It was always weird to me that people started cutting thoughtseize and iok. We want to get cards in their graveyard to exile then process. It is a core part of the deck. I would say that 6 discard spells is mandatory for a processor deck. With the iteration of the deck that I listed above, you have 9 ways to get in the opponents hand. That should be a nightmare for control.
I had a lot of fun with it and went 2-1-1 as follows:
1-1 vs Abzan Coco/GW Hatebears rogue brew (tough, actually went to turns and drew) [EDIT: Turns out this was Abzan Cocowisp, another deck under development in the mtgsalvation forums. Can be found here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/686228-abzan-cocowisp]
2-0 vs Mono White Humans Aggro
2-0 vs Ad Nauseum (seemed like a very favourable match-up. Wasteland strangler ate a lotus bloom and burped it out of the exile zone g1. g2 Inquisition on phyrezian unlife into surgical extraction seemed to do the trick).
1-2 vs Jund (I don't know either. I thought this would be a more favourable match-up but apparently Kalitas messes up our Matter Reshapers and that lifegain puts them back up from behind the game. Found myself wishing I had Anguished Unmaking instead of Oblivion Ring. In future, I will have more dismembers and less discard in the SB and will board out the reshapers purely because of kalitas).
[EDIT: There were around 23 players and I ended up 8th overall.]
I will probably be trying the deck again at the next fnm
If anyone could give me some pointers on sideboarding with this deck or if anyone could lead me to some pointers, it would be very much appreciated.
Otherwise, any tips on improving my list and grinding out Jund/Abzan midrange would be very much appreciated (I'm very aggro oriented and inexperienced with a deck like ours).
I briefly recall seeing Eldrazi Displacer discussed over here but the consensus seemed to be that we want Lingering Souls over it despite the pseudo-lock with thought-knot seer, because Lingering Souls helps us trade more favourably and on our own terms with other midrange decks and helps chump aggro? I can definitely see the logic behind that but I was wondering if someone hasn't tried a version with displacer and found themselves liking it at all? (I saw this video with Corbin Hosler playing a Mardu variant that ran Eldrazi Displacer with Hangarback Walker so that has got my attention: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13671&writer=Corbin Hosler&articledate=12-12-2016)
Other than that, thank you all for developing this really neat, under-appreciated deck and let's hope we can push this thing closer to the top of the charts!
To me, your sideboard is a mess. We don't really need any additional graveyard hate because we run relics mainboard. If you are trying to ghost quarter tron's land then use surgical extraction that is your call. To me adding surgical dilutes the deck to much. With Tron we want to rip apart their hand with thoughtseize AND apply pressure. You can look at some previous posts here where deaddrift and I discussed the Tron matchup.
You can also tone down the number of life gain cards in your sideboard. Collective brutality is the best card (by far) that we have against burn. It absolutely wrecks them. All three modes are relevant. If you have 2 (total) you should be okay. I think that deaddrift talked about the sideboard more in depth than the primer in a previous post, but I cannot remember for sure.
Congrads on the 2-1-1 and, more importantly, on having fun!
Thanks Herfs, I'm also not happy with my sideboard. I did have them there for trying to attack manabases but I've been having doubts given the nonbo with relic of progenitus. I'm going to cut 2 surgical extraction, duress and timely reinforcements and then replace them with 2 Day of Judgment (I don't have access to damnation or wrath of god yet), pithing needle and dismember. Celestial Purge and Disenchant are easy enough for me to acquire. What which match-ups do we want to bring the celestial purges in for? Going to read the tron discussion now, thank you for your input so far and the links
I like Blight Herder myself (as 2x-of SB card for midrange match-ups) but I'd never replace Reality Smasher with it as it is just a much better creature and a legitimate closer for the deck.
Hi Dennis, I like the idea of running Elspeth, Knight-errant mainboard (don't have access to any of the Sorins yet) Is she legitimately good in this deck though? Suppose I'll have to find out tonight I also what to try Blight Herder SB but what would we sb out for it in the midrange games? Sorry if these are dumb questions, I'm a complete novice with this deck.
I usually take out Wasteland Strangler in attrition games that I expect to go long and where there are barely any good targets for its ability and it becomes just a 3/2 for 3.
If you want to add a PW Gideon would be better than Elspeth imho.
I like Blight Herder myself (as 2x-of SB card for midrange match-ups) but I'd never replace Reality Smasher with it as it is just a much better creature and a legitimate closer for the deck.
Hi Dennis, I like the idea of running Elspeth, Knight-errant mainboard (don't have access to any of the Sorins yet) Is she legitimately good in this deck though? Suppose I'll have to find out tonight I also what to try Blight Herder SB but what would we sb out for it in the midrange games? Sorry if these are dumb questions, I'm a complete novice with this deck.
Hi etcherik! I am glad also to see new BW Eldrazi players around. This deck is a blast!
My best suggestion to you is to read the last 20 or so pages of discussion. There is soooo much useful Info, different builds and angles of attacks that choosing your playstile will be easy after that. This deck is not easy to pilot, you have many many choices to make, from which land to lay down turn 1, and what you are expecting to play three turns ahead to all the discards+removals decisions (do I take this kalithas now or take the k-command and hope to draw a path/push/unmaking to deal with him?). You need to study well your meta and each possibility of what the deck can do.
Also, I sincerely suggests you go after Marsh flats. They are what makes the deck playable. Polluted deltas or windswept Heath's are not enough.
Regarding your sideboard, I would cut stony to 2, extractions to 1 and the duress. Pithing needle is a must, and I like to play a couple fulminator mages to have an out to valakut/tron. Yahenni expertise is also a good card, and I like to play a 1/1 split of expertise and wrath.
And cut the eternal scourge... It will be a dead card 90% of time, as the modern meta today will rarely let you attack with it.
Hi etcherik! I am glad also to see new BW Eldrazi players around. This deck is a blast!
My best suggestion to you is to read the last 20 or so pages of discussion. There is soooo much useful Info, different builds and angles of attacks that choosing your playstile will be easy after that. This deck is not easy to pilot, you have many many choices to make, from which land to lay down turn 1, and what you are expecting to play three turns ahead to all the discards+removals decisions (do I take this kalithas now or take the k-command and hope to draw a path/push/unmaking to deal with him?). You need to study well your meta and each possibility of what the deck can do.
Also, I sincerely suggests you go after Marsh flats. They are what makes the deck playable. Polluted deltas or windswept Heath's are not enough.
Regarding your sideboard, I would cut stony to 2, extractions to 1 and the duress. Pithing needle is a must, and I like to play a couple fulminator mages to have an out to valakut/tron. Yahenni expertise is also a good card, and I like to play a 1/1 split of expertise and wrath.
And cut the eternal scourge... It will be a dead card 90% of time, as the modern meta today will rarely let you attack with it.
Anyway, have fun with the orzhov aliens!
Hi Zirzhas, thank you for the solid advice!
Played the deck again last and went 2-2. For reference, this is what my deck looked like after Herfs helped me with the sideboard yesterday.
My wins were against BG Deathcloud and Goblin tribal while my losses were against Naya Valakut and Infect. Infect loss was variance and bad luck. But the Valakut deck ran Nahiri, the Kaladesh Chandra, Through the Breach, Primeval Titan, Sakura Tribe Elder, Valakut and Emrakul? I've never seen that before. I got wrecked g1 and g2 and had to mull to 4 in the latter. Don't think I could've won that match without some crazy t2 Thought-knot seer nut draw unless I had something like Leonin arbiter... I left feeling extremely tilted and a little despondent.
Overall, I've been surprised with the deck's performance over the last two weeks. It seems like it's a powerhouse, I mean it carried me through a Bloodmoon last night against the goblins deck with lingering souls saving the day by putting up a wall of spirits (I drew into 3 copies)! But I'm nowhere near competent with the deck yet and haven't been able to draw out its strengths, being a noob with midrange and control. The deck seems like it has a lot of nuance and I'm in agreement that it's skill-intensive.
I wound up throwing Eternal Scourge in for testing after seeing Skred lists running it a while back. I thought it might be good against attrition decks but we're already very well suited for those match-ups anyway. And out of the games I've played with the deck, Eternal Scourge was relevant in one match: Deathcloud after the namesake made me lose my hand, my board and all my lands. The guy started killing me off with a manland and an eternal witness. I dropped scourge, and while I went down to 1 HP, it literally sucked up my opponent's removal (lol) and bought me enough time to draw into my own removal and threats. But otherwise it has been pretty useless and 90% of the time, it's the first card I cut unless it's an attrition game and even then I'm tempted to cut it to bring in more discard. So I'm definitely going to take your advice and cut it and then try to find more room for 2 Thoughtseizes.
I'm also eagerly going to take the rest of your advice Fulminators sound great. I'll pick up a Yahenni's expertise first chance I get and will try to begin acquiring the Marsh Flats over the next few months.
But right now I'm going to catch up on some reading on this thread and become very quiet until I'm in a position to contribute meaningfully or desperately need help from you guys
Glad to hear you are liking it and starting to get results!
Valakut decks are a nightmare - it is our worst matchup if we don't draw very good. However, I have lost several valakut matches to a top decked scapeshift or Bring to Light. My meta is already aware of my surgical extraction maindecks and they are cautious on dropping a valakut early. Fulminator helps to destroy their shocks and with Liliana we can land lock them. Even though, simian Spirit guide into through the breach is real and can finish games as well...
Don't be shy int bringing out your results and what you feel about the cards. I am also playing this deck for only five months and it is always good to see this thread movimented!
Sure @makoy27, I'll run through those matchups you mentioned
Burn is easy, just take out the 2 Seize for the 2 Blessed Alliance. This matchup is why I play the Inq and Seize split I do, if I only had 1 card to bring in I'd play 4/1 Inq/Seize. If you get a chance look up the Elephant method by Zvi Mowshowitz.
Merfolk I bring in 2 Zealous and 2 Wrath. Take out the Inquisitions and either a Brutality or a TKS, depending if they have Vapor Snag and on your play/draw. Strangler is great here, even with nothing in exile he can target a Kira or a Phantasmal Image to trigger them.
Grixis is pretty fluid, depending on their threat suite (Young Pyro means Zealous does work)and the role you wish to assume in the game (you can go control with Wraths and board out your TKS, or try to play a jund game and protect your threats with timely discard). If they have Inquisition in their deck you want to take yours out, because you will get into a topdeck war. If they have manaleaks and such 1 mana discard can be great. Careful with Tidehallow Sculler, it empowers their kommands to an absurd rate. Liliana is strong against non pyro versions, and blessed alliance is too assuming they dont have discard to be able to play around it. Just make sure you have a cohesive plan, decide what role you would like to take and construct a deck that does that well. Careful not to be rigid locking in that plan in game, you have to be quick on your feet. Often I will adjust my plan drastically between games, especially with more info on not just their deck contents but how they try to strategically leverage their cards.
Affinity is rough but winnable, we have alot for the matchup. Bring in 2 Stony, 2 Zealous, 2 Wrath, and 1 Needle. Board out Seizes, 1-2 Relics, 2-3 Scullers, and 1-2 TKS.
Mardu control I would bring in Pithing needle and Zealous Persecution for Walkers and Lingering souls respectively. Aven could be good if they have walkers to pressure, especially on the play. Id take out inquisitions (seize hits nahiri/damnation/sorin) and ditch brutalities if they dont have Bob.
Best peice of advice sideboarding is to always have a plan and don't overboard, I've lost more games to overboading than anything else in my control
PS: had plains swamp gq in play, liliana, fatal push and useless temples in hand against a liliana and an opponent with a an inq and a deaths shadow in hand. He sees I only have 1 black source and takes my push, the playing the shadow. on my turn I float B and gq my own swamp to cast the lili, he didnt see it coming. I easily won the lili vs lili topdeck war due to the relative strength of my token based threats vs his single body topdeckables. GQ is amazing
1-2 vs affinity, missing my thrid land drop g1 and drawing 10 lands and 6 spells g3.
2-0 vs Burn, not close. Given that we were in the 0-1 bracket I gave my opponent the friendly advice not to overboard into situational cards like Deflecting Palm, but he does not heed my advice and dies g2 with 2 of them in hand.
2-0 vs Zoo, bad hands for the matchup but played with a cool head and wasn't afraid to trade my TKS for a narnarm renegade when it was necessary. Played around Atarka's command at all times, and never feared the top of his deck. I play that deck, I know what its capabilities and its limitations are.
2-0 vs burn, Won game 2 at one. Made sure to take lines that would end up with my life at 5 with lethal for the next turn through searing blaze. the most damage he could possibly draw is boros charm, and draw it he did. gotta make your own luck, against decks like burn you can find lines even if they require you to take more damage earlier. your life is a resource, use it, dont be afraid.
2-1 vs Abzan, game 1 mulliganned a hand with seize, 2 souls and 2 sorin. Felt it was too weak against anything but jundy decks, and mulled to nearly the same hand but without the souls. Even though I got punished, on the blind it was a fine mulligan, especially because of my strength in games 2 and 3 vs abzan. My opponent was tilted and misplayed in subsequent games, but the writing was already on the wall and it did little to affect the outcome.
2-0 vs Death's Shadow, this was a breeze. g2 I had the gq interaction I mentioned, and later on in that game I made attacks that were sure to present lethal on the next turn and keep his life just high enough that a topdecked street wraith cycled into another street wraith into a temur battle rage would leave me at 1
2-1 vs valakut. was dead game 1 to any cards off the top other than valakut, forest, and khalani heart expedition for 2 turns. He drew forest forest and I stole it. game 2 I got crushed by a courser into a fast primetime. once they get multiple valakuts going the game is over. G3 I curved sculler into sculler into fulminator and never cracked the fulm. if they have 7 lands and draw scapeshift, you can destroy a mountain (not valakut) and stop 15 of the 18 damage coming your way due to the intervening if clause on valaukut that checks your other mountain count both when the trigger goes on the stack and tries to resolve. Dont crack your fulminator unless they for example have 5 lands and you can keep them off primetime for a turn, the 2 damage clock is important. Hard matchup, you need to do a lot of math and cost/benefit analysis
Seed #1 going into the top 8, we almost split but one guy didnt want to (which saved me from having to make the hard choice, do I split and just go home or be the ******** who makes everyone play?)
Quarters against affinity. G1 I had a good draw against his medium draw, and was able to chump with lingering souls while beating down long enough to survive any crazy draws, like a second ravager or a master of etherium. he had glint nest crane, which I am glad to see on the other side of the table given the alternatives. I was also likely dead to a line he could have taken involving poisoning me over 2 turns and praying i dont draw path/push/gq/souls, but he took the low risk low reward line. He regretted it, and I agreed that he should have gone for it instead of waiting. g2 I drew both zealous, and although one was enough to put me way ahead, the second one saved us from having to do combat math. 2-0
Semi's Bant Eldratzi. this deck is very different than ours, we are the control player for sure. landing the first tks is big tho, and they have access to way more tricks. g1 was easy, I tore up his hand and board and easily raced a smasher. G2 I have the hardest sculler of the day, with a wrath in hand I know he will eventually get the card back. He has drowner, smasher, and worship, and 3 lands in play, one being a temple. I took the worship, knowing I would need to draw a second wrath and a shambling vents to be able to beat it waaay down the line. My hope was that he would whiff on land for turn and I would be able to pressure him enough to deprive him of the opportunity to ever play the worship profitably, or find a processor in time. he got the land i hoped to fade and curved smasher into drowner, which I was ready for with my wrath. my wrath puts the worship back into his hand, and with 2 path in hand i know my line is to kill him before he draws scion producers. he draws skyspawner of course and that plus an noble and worship means his fortress is impenatrable. I get him to one and have to draw a zealous before he draws a bigger than 1 toughness guy or outright kills me, and he finds a drowner. g3 I curve relic into strangler (kills his displacer) into souls into blight herder, which is way more than his "low energy" reality smashers can swing into while I assainate him with the spirit of Gene Wilder (courtesy of RK Post)in the air.
Finals. Bant Eldrazi again. It was late so we split the finals, taking home 600 bucks cash and an invite each. Given that I was top seed coming in I got top billing
So I went 8-1 in matches, 16-4 in games. Deck is great, I have changed nothing since the event, even though I've played in a couple fnm-type events since (2-1 and 4-0). Ask me anything, except why Smasher is so much worse than Herder, I've beaten that poor ghoulsteed to life by now.
1-2 vs affinity, missing my thrid land drop g1 and drawing 10 lands and 6 spells g3.
2-0 vs Burn, not close. Given that we were in the 0-1 bracket I gave my opponent the friendly advice not to overboard into situational cards like Deflecting Palm, but he does not heed my advice and dies g2 with 2 of them in hand.
2-0 vs Zoo, bad hands for the matchup but played with a cool head and wasn't afraid to trade my TKS for a narnarm renegade when it was necessary. Played around Atarka's command at all times, and never feared the top of his deck. I play that deck, I know what its capabilities and its limitations are.
2-0 vs burn, Won game 2 at one. Made sure to take lines that would end up with my life at 5 with lethal for the next turn through searing blaze. the most damage he could possibly draw is boros charm, and draw it he did. gotta make your own luck, against decks like burn you can find lines even if they require you to take more damage earlier. your life is a resource, use it, dont be afraid.
2-1 vs Abzan, game 1 mulliganned a hand with seize, 2 souls and 2 sorin. Felt it was too weak against anything but jundy decks, and mulled to nearly the same hand but without the souls. Even though I got punished, on the blind it was a fine mulligan, especially because of my strength in games 2 and 3 vs abzan. My opponent was tilted and misplayed in subsequent games, but the writing was already on the wall and it did little to affect the outcome.
2-0 vs Death's Shadow, this was a breeze. g2 I had the gq interaction I mentioned, and later on in that game I made attacks that were sure to present lethal on the next turn and keep his life just high enough that a topdecked street wraith cycled into another street wraith into a temur battle rage would leave me at 1
2-1 vs valakut. was dead game 1 to any cards off the top other than valakut, forest, and khalani heart expedition for 2 turns. He drew forest forest and I stole it. game 2 I got crushed by a courser into a fast primetime. once they get multiple valakuts going the game is over. G3 I curved sculler into sculler into fulminator and never cracked the fulm. if they have 7 lands and draw scapeshift, you can destroy a mountain (not valakut) and stop 15 of the 18 damage coming your way due to the intervening if clause on valaukut that checks your other mountain count both when the trigger goes on the stack and tries to resolve. Dont crack your fulminator unless they for example have 5 lands and you can keep them off primetime for a turn, the 2 damage clock is important. Hard matchup, you need to do a lot of math and cost/benefit analysis
Seed #1 going into the top 8, we almost split but one guy didnt want to (which saved me from having to make the hard choice, do I split and just go home or be the ******** who makes everyone play?)
Quarters against affinity. G1 I had a good draw against his medium draw, and was able to chump with lingering souls while beating down long enough to survive any crazy draws, like a second ravager or a master of etherium. he had glint nest crane, which I am glad to see on the other side of the table given the alternatives. I was also likely dead to a line he could have taken involving poisoning me over 2 turns and praying i dont draw path/push/gq/souls, but he took the low risk low reward line. He regretted it, and I agreed that he should have gone for it instead of waiting. g2 I drew both zealous, and although one was enough to put me way ahead, the second one saved us from having to do combat math. 2-0
Semi's Bant Eldratzi. this deck is very different than ours, we are the control player for sure. landing the first tks is big tho, and they have access to way more tricks. g1 was easy, I tore up his hand and board and easily raced a smasher. G2 I have the hardest sculler of the day, with a wrath in hand I know he will eventually get the card back. He has drowner, smasher, and worship, and 3 lands in play, one being a temple. I took the worship, knowing I would need to draw a second wrath and a shambling vents to be able to beat it waaay down the line. My hope was that he would whiff on land for turn and I would be able to pressure him enough to deprive him of the opportunity to ever play the worship profitably, or find a processor in time. he got the land i hoped to fade and curved smasher into drowner, which I was ready for with my wrath. my wrath puts the worship back into his hand, and with 2 path in hand i know my line is to kill him before he draws scion producers. he draws skyspawner of course and that plus an noble and worship means his fortress is impenatrable. I get him to one and have to draw a zealous before he draws a bigger than 1 toughness guy or outright kills me, and he finds a drowner. g3 I curve relic into strangler (kills his displacer) into souls into blight herder, which is way more than his "low energy" reality smashers can swing into while I assainate him with the spirit of Gene Wilder (courtesy of RK Post)in the air.
Finals. Bant Eldrazi again. It was late so we split the finals, taking home 600 bucks cash and an invite each. Given that I was top seed coming in I got top billing
So I went 8-1 in matches, 16-4 in games. Deck is great, I have changed nothing since the event, even though I've played in a couple fnm-type events since (2-1 and 4-0). Ask me anything, except why Smasher is so much worse than Herder, I've beaten that poor ghoulsteed to life by now.
1st place and you beat valakut?!!? Even zoo? Those matchups can be very, very horrible. Congrads man!
Last two tournaments lost all matches, although were about to win when they topdecked a kill. Sad but I will tweak my sideboard to better answer my metagame. Tomorrow I will switch from smashers to Herders and let you know how it goes.
Last two tournaments lost all matches, although were about to win when they topdecked a kill. Sad but I will tweak my sideboard to better answer my metagame. Tomorrow I will switch from smashers to Herders and let you know how it goes.
Topdeck's happen. That is one of the main problems with discard spells when compared to counter-magic --- you cannot stop a top-deck. With all the affinity, merfolk, junk running around your meta game you might want to up the sweepers to 2. Maybe try an engineered explosives if you have it. Or just put in an additional damnation, wrath of god, or day of judgment.
You could put a sweeper mainboard to have better game 1 matchups. I wouldn't recommend this for an unknown meta though.
Last two tournaments lost all matches, although were about to win when they topdecked a kill. Sad but I will tweak my sideboard to better answer my metagame. Tomorrow I will switch from smashers to Herders and let you know how it goes.
Topdeck's happen. That is one of the main problems with discard spells when compared to counter-magic --- you cannot stop a top-deck. With all the affinity, merfolk, junk running around your meta game you might want to up the sweepers to 2. Maybe try an engineered explosives if you have it. Or just put in an additional damnation, wrath of god, or day of judgment.
You could put a sweeper mainboard to have better game 1 matchups. I wouldn't recommend this for an unknown meta though.
I don't know if sweepers are the thing I am missing. I am more inclined to drop something for another fatal push (I play with a wrath, an expertise and two ratchet bombs already at SB, and 4/1/1 split on path, push, anguished).
Today I played the sculler/herder and LOVED it! Herder is not as explosive as smasher, but while smashers give opponents hand trouble, herder gives then battlefield trouble and is hard to deal with his mess. This is really interesting, as it changes the deck lines of play (although I played with 3 Herders and a single smasher, which won me a game against Naya zoo). Scullers however are really, really strong, and even if they get killed, they already generated value (I like to take strong cards, leaving then with removal in hand, so they spend the removal on him). Got a draw with valakut after surgical on valakut and won against burn to 3-0-1. Will keep the Herders for a while and see where it goes!
Congrats on all of your success man. I have been having succes with reality smasher but I am going to try your version. Here are some questions that I have.
How important or the following sideboard options?
-Aven Mindscencor: this card has always seemed weak to me. Is it really that big of a bomb against Scapeshift, Tron, Chord decks? These decks are tough matchups and I have always used 2 surgical extractions along with QC, Fulminators,discard to beat these decks. So far this has been the most successful for me.
-Lilliana of the Veil: one of my favorite cards but I always felt Lilliana's best place is in BGX so it can at the same time grow goyf. I do like the synergy with lingering souls but we also have collective brutality that goes well with souls. Lilliana of the Veil is great in the control matchup but at the same time you are putting yourself at card disadvantage and losing value. In the control matchup why not board in Lilliana the last hope? This card is an amazing grinder, the ultimate is almost unbeatable and it's +1 is helpful against elves, affinity, tokens, coco decks where Lilliana of the Veil is weak. You already have a better control matchup by playing blight herder over smasher so my thinking is Lilliana of the Last Hope could do more. Lilliana of the last hope is also a great late game too deck.
-Wrath of God: is this a budget choice over damnation? Or does the WW work better for you?
-Blessed Alliance: I have never been very impressed with this card. I love my SB cards to be bombs. That's is why I absolutely love Stony Silence against affinity, wrath/damnation creature decks, collective brutality against burn. I get that it's a Swiss army watch and has game against deaths shadow, burn and hexproof but I would like to know how important this card is in the SB. Also have you been using the untap mode successfully? One thing came to mind is attacking with your creatures after a +1 Sorin pump and the. Having them available as a surprise untap and block while stick being pumped and lifelinked.
Problematic cards
-Ghirapur Aerher Grid: I have often completely locked down affinity but end up losing the long game to this card. This makes me want to play some disenchants. Not a bomb but a very versatile card.
-Coco: Still no real answer for this. Coco decks and elves with coco are really tough. I'm going to try Zealous Persecution due to the synergy with tokens strategy and also killing 1 toughness creatures
You have had the most success with this deck so I would love to hear your feedback. Thanks in advance!
Aven just deals with big mana decks so much cleaner, its just way fewer hoops to jump through than surgical, especially when either will usually get there I want the one that is more convenient to use. Although the surgical combo is more powerful, it is wildly less consistent and also has very little residual value in other matchups, where Aven is nice to pressure walkers and in general is more flexible. However, if you want to cut cards for big mana matchups to make room to hedge against other decks, Aven is certainly one of the more cuttable cards from the SB
Lotv is actually great in this type of deck because she is useful in so many matchups. Essentially any deck that cant win by turn 3 and doesn't have lingering souls or wilt-leaf she comes in. She is a rare answer to certain hard to beat cards like ensnaring bridge, and she attacks from another axis, the diversity of threats is the strength of this deck. Last hope could be good too, but she is better against decks I don't need more cards against, and way less powerful against the Jund/Grixis/UWR midrange decks of the world. Another reason I play LOTV is her utility in combo matchups, discard into her is a game winning plan, she is just so good when you can force her through countermagic and then use her to finish off their hand. Bring her in against Tron, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseum, Jund, Grixis(non pyro version), UWR, Boggles(we need the help here), Bant Drazi, Death's Shadow(LLH is pretty bad here), etc. Bottom line is Edict is better than -2/-1 in this meta, you need hard removal.
Wrath is and isn't a budget choice, it is because I don't currently own Damnations, but isn't because even if I did I would still play Wrath. WW is something Id rather prioritize in aggro matchups because of Path, I fetch plains more than swamp. The only decks I bring in Wrath and Lotv (WW and BB) dont pressure my mana and give me plenty of time to find my colors, such as Bant Eldrazi and Jund, so in those cases it doesn't matter which spell it is.
Blessed Alliance was an upgrade to spellskite, and a large one against Burn and Death's Shadow. They come in for the same matchups such as boggles and infect. The card is very flexible and powerful where you need it, but its more of a silver bullet than most of the SB. Things like LOTV and Zealous Persecution come in against a wide array of matchups, while Blessed has its 4-5 matchups. I've pleyed without the card and really missed it, its really just earned its place. I have used the untap mode before against Grixis, both edicting away a snapcaster and untapping a blight herder and scion to double block a tasigur, but it comes up very infrequently. Just the first 2 modes are enough
I used to play grafdiggers cage for coco but have since found it completely unnecessary, as the matchup is insanely favored to begin with. I replaced the cage with Aven as it hits chord as well as a huge swath of the format, and doesnt have antisynergy with lingering souls. Zealous is a house, Relic main is a house, Wrath is amazing, we kinda just grind coco decks to dust and have ample ways to prevent them from a ninja combo. The deck has also dropped in marketshare, but this all may change with amonkhet. We will see the strongest version of combo-chord yet, and that may end up requiring some tweak to the board. Aether grid is a good card against up, its a reason to leave in IOK against affinity. I agree that an answer for it would be nice, I recommend Fragmentize or plain jane Disenchant. Or if you really want a card for affinity you could play fracturing gust, it stabilizes your life a cleans up their board of any creatures, grids, and Bitterblossoms.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Clearly you have done a lot of testing with this. I look forward to seeing more top finishes from you. Keep up the good work!
What do you guys think about Angel of Sanctions? Seems powerful to me as a 1 off in versions that run Blight Herder over Reality Smasher as we aim more for control and processing. Maybe a 2-2 or a 3-1 Herder/Angel split could be good.
I am playing a 1-of smasher in my herder version and considering 1 more on the SB. He is just too good to pass. The angel seems good too, but double white hurts a little when you are prepared for double black Mana, or holding a path. Dunno, it dodges push and decay and bolt, can be a nice trick!
Regarding enchantments, I play a 1/1 split of mb/SB anguished unmaking and 2 ratchet bombs to deal with them. Blood moon, bitterblossom and mainly Intangible virtue (can't win with that card on the table, ever!) All fold to the bomb with a little setup.
been messing around with this deck a bit...I like RidetheIguana's list (give or take a few cards) for sure.
few comparison points: Blight herder>reality smasher... late game threat with opponent low on cards herder is harder to deal with especially with sorin its GG. liliana, the last hope/liliana of the veil... curious to more input on this, ive tested both and have been liking the last hope. mainly for +1 and ultimate, but getting creatures back isnt bad in a discard heavy mirror of sorts. if you play fulminators she's even better.
smuggler's Copter is my scoot tech which helps with consistency and being more Aggro because it basically givs everything haste.
2 of.
basically i started winning with this deck when i started playing it as a control build, not a more aggro eldrazi list which im used to (i play bant, and GW eldrazi evolution as well) Meta call, but it feels good at the moment.
having a bit of trouble with dredge and elves it seems. dredge seems like an easy win with MB relics, but we are pretty slow, and ive found it harder than expected. Affinity has been easy for me though so far...
1-2 vs affinity, missing my thrid land drop g1 and drawing 10 lands and 6 spells g3.
2-0 vs Burn, not close. Given that we were in the 0-1 bracket I gave my opponent the friendly advice not to overboard into situational cards like Deflecting Palm, but he does not heed my advice and dies g2 with 2 of them in hand.
2-0 vs Zoo, bad hands for the matchup but played with a cool head and wasn't afraid to trade my TKS for a narnarm renegade when it was necessary. Played around Atarka's command at all times, and never feared the top of his deck. I play that deck, I know what its capabilities and its limitations are.
2-0 vs burn, Won game 2 at one. Made sure to take lines that would end up with my life at 5 with lethal for the next turn through searing blaze. the most damage he could possibly draw is boros charm, and draw it he did. gotta make your own luck, against decks like burn you can find lines even if they require you to take more damage earlier. your life is a resource, use it, dont be afraid.
2-1 vs Abzan, game 1 mulliganned a hand with seize, 2 souls and 2 sorin. Felt it was too weak against anything but jundy decks, and mulled to nearly the same hand but without the souls. Even though I got punished, on the blind it was a fine mulligan, especially because of my strength in games 2 and 3 vs abzan. My opponent was tilted and misplayed in subsequent games, but the writing was already on the wall and it did little to affect the outcome.
2-0 vs Death's Shadow, this was a breeze. g2 I had the gq interaction I mentioned, and later on in that game I made attacks that were sure to present lethal on the next turn and keep his life just high enough that a topdecked street wraith cycled into another street wraith into a temur battle rage would leave me at 1
2-1 vs valakut. was dead game 1 to any cards off the top other than valakut, forest, and khalani heart expedition for 2 turns. He drew forest forest and I stole it. game 2 I got crushed by a courser into a fast primetime. once they get multiple valakuts going the game is over. G3 I curved sculler into sculler into fulminator and never cracked the fulm. if they have 7 lands and draw scapeshift, you can destroy a mountain (not valakut) and stop 15 of the 18 damage coming your way due to the intervening if clause on valaukut that checks your other mountain count both when the trigger goes on the stack and tries to resolve. Dont crack your fulminator unless they for example have 5 lands and you can keep them off primetime for a turn, the 2 damage clock is important. Hard matchup, you need to do a lot of math and cost/benefit analysis
Seed #1 going into the top 8, we almost split but one guy didnt want to (which saved me from having to make the hard choice, do I split and just go home or be the ******** who makes everyone play?)
Quarters against affinity. G1 I had a good draw against his medium draw, and was able to chump with lingering souls while beating down long enough to survive any crazy draws, like a second ravager or a master of etherium. he had glint nest crane, which I am glad to see on the other side of the table given the alternatives. I was also likely dead to a line he could have taken involving poisoning me over 2 turns and praying i dont draw path/push/gq/souls, but he took the low risk low reward line. He regretted it, and I agreed that he should have gone for it instead of waiting. g2 I drew both zealous, and although one was enough to put me way ahead, the second one saved us from having to do combat math. 2-0
Semi's Bant Eldratzi. this deck is very different than ours, we are the control player for sure. landing the first tks is big tho, and they have access to way more tricks. g1 was easy, I tore up his hand and board and easily raced a smasher. G2 I have the hardest sculler of the day, with a wrath in hand I know he will eventually get the card back. He has drowner, smasher, and worship, and 3 lands in play, one being a temple. I took the worship, knowing I would need to draw a second wrath and a shambling vents to be able to beat it waaay down the line. My hope was that he would whiff on land for turn and I would be able to pressure him enough to deprive him of the opportunity to ever play the worship profitably, or find a processor in time. he got the land i hoped to fade and curved smasher into drowner, which I was ready for with my wrath. my wrath puts the worship back into his hand, and with 2 path in hand i know my line is to kill him before he draws scion producers. he draws skyspawner of course and that plus an noble and worship means his fortress is impenatrable. I get him to one and have to draw a zealous before he draws a bigger than 1 toughness guy or outright kills me, and he finds a drowner. g3 I curve relic into strangler (kills his displacer) into souls into blight herder, which is way more than his "low energy" reality smashers can swing into while I assainate him with the spirit of Gene Wilder (courtesy of RK Post)in the air.
Finals. Bant Eldrazi again. It was late so we split the finals, taking home 600 bucks cash and an invite each. Given that I was top seed coming in I got top billing
So I went 8-1 in matches, 16-4 in games. Deck is great, I have changed nothing since the event, even though I've played in a couple fnm-type events since (2-1 and 4-0). Ask me anything, except why Smasher is so much worse than Herder, I've beaten that poor ghoulsteed to life by now.
I'm a beginner to this deck and just got smoked by a renegade rallier Abzan build. I noticed you didn't have Cage in your SB. How would you sideboard for this matchup please? Voice and rallier were killing me and kept bringing things back from the yard
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Glad to see you finally testing out tidehollow sculler!!!!!!! You really need to add some eldrazi displacers to the deck so you can do the displacer + tidehollow combo on their draw step. I feel that wasteland strangler is a good card and amazing when you curve out. However, it is not a great end-game top-deck card and not the greatest at pushing your guys through their defenses. Displacer, on the other hand, is a great card throughout the game. It is extremly powerful to be able to flicker their creatures on their turn and freely attack the following turn. If you want to give tidehollow a fair shot, I would try something like this:
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Marsh Flats
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Godless Shrine
2x Concealed Courtyard
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Swamp
1x Fetid Heath
1x Shambling Vent
1x Plains
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Wasteland Strangler
3x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Reality Smasher
Sorcery (11)
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Collective Brutality
3x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
Artifact (4)
3x Relic of Progenitus
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Or something from a previous post when I was brewing with fatal push.
I should add that I think that tidehollow is in a REALLY bad spot right now. Too many fatal pushes and k-command's running around.
I am also glad that people are starting to add more discard to the main board. It was always weird to me that people started cutting thoughtseize and iok. We want to get cards in their graveyard to exile then process. It is a core part of the deck. I would say that 6 discard spells is mandatory for a processor deck. With the iteration of the deck that I listed above, you have 9 ways to get in the opponents hand. That should be a nightmare for control.
To me, your sideboard is a mess. We don't really need any additional graveyard hate because we run relics mainboard. If you are trying to ghost quarter tron's land then use surgical extraction that is your call. To me adding surgical dilutes the deck to much. With Tron we want to rip apart their hand with thoughtseize AND apply pressure. You can look at some previous posts here where deaddrift and I discussed the Tron matchup.
You can also tone down the number of life gain cards in your sideboard. Collective brutality is the best card (by far) that we have against burn. It absolutely wrecks them. All three modes are relevant. If you have 2 (total) you should be okay. I think that deaddrift talked about the sideboard more in depth than the primer in a previous post, but I cannot remember for sure.
Some cards to consider are:
Congrads on the 2-1-1 and, more importantly, on having fun!
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Thanks Herfs, I'm also not happy with my sideboard. I did have them there for trying to attack manabases but I've been having doubts given the nonbo with relic of progenitus. I'm going to cut 2 surgical extraction, duress and timely reinforcements and then replace them with 2 Day of Judgment (I don't have access to damnation or wrath of god yet), pithing needle and dismember. Celestial Purge and Disenchant are easy enough for me to acquire. What which match-ups do we want to bring the celestial purges in for? Going to read the tron discussion now, thank you for your input so far and the links
Hi Dennis, I like the idea of running Elspeth, Knight-errant mainboard (don't have access to any of the Sorins yet) Is she legitimately good in this deck though? Suppose I'll have to find out tonight
If you want to add a PW Gideon would be better than Elspeth imho.
Hi etcherik! I am glad also to see new BW Eldrazi players around. This deck is a blast!
My best suggestion to you is to read the last 20 or so pages of discussion. There is soooo much useful Info, different builds and angles of attacks that choosing your playstile will be easy after that. This deck is not easy to pilot, you have many many choices to make, from which land to lay down turn 1, and what you are expecting to play three turns ahead to all the discards+removals decisions (do I take this kalithas now or take the k-command and hope to draw a path/push/unmaking to deal with him?). You need to study well your meta and each possibility of what the deck can do.
Also, I sincerely suggests you go after Marsh flats. They are what makes the deck playable. Polluted deltas or windswept Heath's are not enough.
Regarding your sideboard, I would cut stony to 2, extractions to 1 and the duress. Pithing needle is a must, and I like to play a couple fulminator mages to have an out to valakut/tron. Yahenni expertise is also a good card, and I like to play a 1/1 split of expertise and wrath.
And cut the eternal scourge... It will be a dead card 90% of time, as the modern meta today will rarely let you attack with it.
Anyway, have fun with the orzhov aliens!
Hi Zirzhas, thank you for the solid advice!
Played the deck again last and went 2-2. For reference, this is what my deck looked like after Herfs helped me with the sideboard yesterday.
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmouth
2 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Godless Shrine
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Eldrazi Temple
Creatures (15):
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Eternal Scourge
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Though-knot seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
1 Anguished Unmaking
Artifacts (7):
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Collective Brutality
3 Stony Silence
2 Dismember
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Day of Judgment
My wins were against BG Deathcloud and Goblin tribal while my losses were against Naya Valakut and Infect. Infect loss was variance and bad luck. But the Valakut deck ran Nahiri, the Kaladesh Chandra, Through the Breach, Primeval Titan, Sakura Tribe Elder, Valakut and Emrakul? I've never seen that before. I got wrecked g1 and g2 and had to mull to 4 in the latter. Don't think I could've won that match without some crazy t2 Thought-knot seer nut draw unless I had something like Leonin arbiter... I left feeling extremely tilted and a little despondent.
Overall, I've been surprised with the deck's performance over the last two weeks. It seems like it's a powerhouse, I mean it carried me through a Bloodmoon last night against the goblins deck with lingering souls saving the day by putting up a wall of spirits (I drew into 3 copies)! But I'm nowhere near competent with the deck yet and haven't been able to draw out its strengths, being a noob with midrange and control. The deck seems like it has a lot of nuance and I'm in agreement that it's skill-intensive.
I wound up throwing Eternal Scourge in for testing after seeing Skred lists running it a while back. I thought it might be good against attrition decks but we're already very well suited for those match-ups anyway. And out of the games I've played with the deck, Eternal Scourge was relevant in one match: Deathcloud after the namesake made me lose my hand, my board and all my lands. The guy started killing me off with a manland and an eternal witness. I dropped scourge, and while I went down to 1 HP, it literally sucked up my opponent's removal (lol) and bought me enough time to draw into my own removal and threats. But otherwise it has been pretty useless and 90% of the time, it's the first card I cut unless it's an attrition game and even then I'm tempted to cut it to bring in more discard. So I'm definitely going to take your advice and cut it and then try to find more room for 2 Thoughtseizes.
I'm also eagerly going to take the rest of your advice
But right now I'm going to catch up on some reading on this thread and become very quiet until I'm in a position to contribute meaningfully or desperately need help from you guys
Thank you all once more!
Valakut decks are a nightmare - it is our worst matchup if we don't draw very good. However, I have lost several valakut matches to a top decked scapeshift or Bring to Light. My meta is already aware of my surgical extraction maindecks and they are cautious on dropping a valakut early. Fulminator helps to destroy their shocks and with Liliana we can land lock them. Even though, simian Spirit guide into through the breach is real and can finish games as well...
Don't be shy int bringing out your results and what you feel about the cards. I am also playing this deck for only five months and it is always good to see this thread movimented!
Burn is easy, just take out the 2 Seize for the 2 Blessed Alliance. This matchup is why I play the Inq and Seize split I do, if I only had 1 card to bring in I'd play 4/1 Inq/Seize. If you get a chance look up the Elephant method by Zvi Mowshowitz.
Merfolk I bring in 2 Zealous and 2 Wrath. Take out the Inquisitions and either a Brutality or a TKS, depending if they have Vapor Snag and on your play/draw. Strangler is great here, even with nothing in exile he can target a Kira or a Phantasmal Image to trigger them.
Grixis is pretty fluid, depending on their threat suite (Young Pyro means Zealous does work)and the role you wish to assume in the game (you can go control with Wraths and board out your TKS, or try to play a jund game and protect your threats with timely discard). If they have Inquisition in their deck you want to take yours out, because you will get into a topdeck war. If they have manaleaks and such 1 mana discard can be great. Careful with Tidehallow Sculler, it empowers their kommands to an absurd rate. Liliana is strong against non pyro versions, and blessed alliance is too assuming they dont have discard to be able to play around it. Just make sure you have a cohesive plan, decide what role you would like to take and construct a deck that does that well. Careful not to be rigid locking in that plan in game, you have to be quick on your feet. Often I will adjust my plan drastically between games, especially with more info on not just their deck contents but how they try to strategically leverage their cards.
Affinity is rough but winnable, we have alot for the matchup. Bring in 2 Stony, 2 Zealous, 2 Wrath, and 1 Needle. Board out Seizes, 1-2 Relics, 2-3 Scullers, and 1-2 TKS.
Mardu control I would bring in Pithing needle and Zealous Persecution for Walkers and Lingering souls respectively. Aven could be good if they have walkers to pressure, especially on the play. Id take out inquisitions (seize hits nahiri/damnation/sorin) and ditch brutalities if they dont have Bob.
Best peice of advice sideboarding is to always have a plan and don't overboard, I've lost more games to overboading than anything else in my control
PS: had plains swamp gq in play, liliana, fatal push and useless temples in hand against a liliana and an opponent with a an inq and a deaths shadow in hand. He sees I only have 1 black source and takes my push, the playing the shadow. on my turn I float B and gq my own swamp to cast the lili, he didnt see it coming. I easily won the lili vs lili topdeck war due to the relative strength of my token based threats vs his single body topdeckables. GQ is amazing
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1-2 vs affinity, missing my thrid land drop g1 and drawing 10 lands and 6 spells g3.
2-0 vs Burn, not close. Given that we were in the 0-1 bracket I gave my opponent the friendly advice not to overboard into situational cards like Deflecting Palm, but he does not heed my advice and dies g2 with 2 of them in hand.
2-0 vs Zoo, bad hands for the matchup but played with a cool head and wasn't afraid to trade my TKS for a narnarm renegade when it was necessary. Played around Atarka's command at all times, and never feared the top of his deck. I play that deck, I know what its capabilities and its limitations are.
2-0 vs burn, Won game 2 at one. Made sure to take lines that would end up with my life at 5 with lethal for the next turn through searing blaze. the most damage he could possibly draw is boros charm, and draw it he did. gotta make your own luck, against decks like burn you can find lines even if they require you to take more damage earlier. your life is a resource, use it, dont be afraid.
2-1 vs Abzan, game 1 mulliganned a hand with seize, 2 souls and 2 sorin. Felt it was too weak against anything but jundy decks, and mulled to nearly the same hand but without the souls. Even though I got punished, on the blind it was a fine mulligan, especially because of my strength in games 2 and 3 vs abzan. My opponent was tilted and misplayed in subsequent games, but the writing was already on the wall and it did little to affect the outcome.
2-0 vs Death's Shadow, this was a breeze. g2 I had the gq interaction I mentioned, and later on in that game I made attacks that were sure to present lethal on the next turn and keep his life just high enough that a topdecked street wraith cycled into another street wraith into a temur battle rage would leave me at 1
2-1 vs valakut. was dead game 1 to any cards off the top other than valakut, forest, and khalani heart expedition for 2 turns. He drew forest forest and I stole it. game 2 I got crushed by a courser into a fast primetime. once they get multiple valakuts going the game is over. G3 I curved sculler into sculler into fulminator and never cracked the fulm. if they have 7 lands and draw scapeshift, you can destroy a mountain (not valakut) and stop 15 of the 18 damage coming your way due to the intervening if clause on valaukut that checks your other mountain count both when the trigger goes on the stack and tries to resolve. Dont crack your fulminator unless they for example have 5 lands and you can keep them off primetime for a turn, the 2 damage clock is important. Hard matchup, you need to do a lot of math and cost/benefit analysis
Seed #1 going into the top 8, we almost split but one guy didnt want to (which saved me from having to make the hard choice, do I split and just go home or be the ******** who makes everyone play?)
Quarters against affinity. G1 I had a good draw against his medium draw, and was able to chump with lingering souls while beating down long enough to survive any crazy draws, like a second ravager or a master of etherium. he had glint nest crane, which I am glad to see on the other side of the table given the alternatives. I was also likely dead to a line he could have taken involving poisoning me over 2 turns and praying i dont draw path/push/gq/souls, but he took the low risk low reward line. He regretted it, and I agreed that he should have gone for it instead of waiting. g2 I drew both zealous, and although one was enough to put me way ahead, the second one saved us from having to do combat math. 2-0
Semi's Bant Eldratzi. this deck is very different than ours, we are the control player for sure. landing the first tks is big tho, and they have access to way more tricks. g1 was easy, I tore up his hand and board and easily raced a smasher. G2 I have the hardest sculler of the day, with a wrath in hand I know he will eventually get the card back. He has drowner, smasher, and worship, and 3 lands in play, one being a temple. I took the worship, knowing I would need to draw a second wrath and a shambling vents to be able to beat it waaay down the line. My hope was that he would whiff on land for turn and I would be able to pressure him enough to deprive him of the opportunity to ever play the worship profitably, or find a processor in time. he got the land i hoped to fade and curved smasher into drowner, which I was ready for with my wrath. my wrath puts the worship back into his hand, and with 2 path in hand i know my line is to kill him before he draws scion producers. he draws skyspawner of course and that plus an noble and worship means his fortress is impenatrable. I get him to one and have to draw a zealous before he draws a bigger than 1 toughness guy or outright kills me, and he finds a drowner. g3 I curve relic into strangler (kills his displacer) into souls into blight herder, which is way more than his "low energy" reality smashers can swing into while I assainate him with the spirit of Gene Wilder (courtesy of RK Post)in the air.
Finals. Bant Eldrazi again. It was late so we split the finals, taking home 600 bucks cash and an invite each. Given that I was top seed coming in I got top billing
So I went 8-1 in matches, 16-4 in games. Deck is great, I have changed nothing since the event, even though I've played in a couple fnm-type events since (2-1 and 4-0). Ask me anything, except why Smasher is so much worse than Herder, I've beaten that poor ghoulsteed to life by now.
1st place and you beat valakut?!!? Even zoo? Those matchups can be very, very horrible. Congrads man!
The two main deck collective brutality must be a nightmare for burn.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Topdeck's happen. That is one of the main problems with discard spells when compared to counter-magic --- you cannot stop a top-deck. With all the affinity, merfolk, junk running around your meta game you might want to up the sweepers to 2. Maybe try an engineered explosives if you have it. Or just put in an additional damnation, wrath of god, or day of judgment.
You could put a sweeper mainboard to have better game 1 matchups. I wouldn't recommend this for an unknown meta though.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
I don't know if sweepers are the thing I am missing. I am more inclined to drop something for another fatal push (I play with a wrath, an expertise and two ratchet bombs already at SB, and 4/1/1 split on path, push, anguished).
Today I played the sculler/herder and LOVED it! Herder is not as explosive as smasher, but while smashers give opponents hand trouble, herder gives then battlefield trouble and is hard to deal with his mess. This is really interesting, as it changes the deck lines of play (although I played with 3 Herders and a single smasher, which won me a game against Naya zoo). Scullers however are really, really strong, and even if they get killed, they already generated value (I like to take strong cards, leaving then with removal in hand, so they spend the removal on him). Got a draw with valakut after surgical on valakut and won against burn to 3-0-1. Will keep the Herders for a while and see where it goes!
How important or the following sideboard options?
-Aven Mindscencor: this card has always seemed weak to me. Is it really that big of a bomb against Scapeshift, Tron, Chord decks? These decks are tough matchups and I have always used 2 surgical extractions along with QC, Fulminators,discard to beat these decks. So far this has been the most successful for me.
-Lilliana of the Veil: one of my favorite cards but I always felt Lilliana's best place is in BGX so it can at the same time grow goyf. I do like the synergy with lingering souls but we also have collective brutality that goes well with souls. Lilliana of the Veil is great in the control matchup but at the same time you are putting yourself at card disadvantage and losing value. In the control matchup why not board in Lilliana the last hope? This card is an amazing grinder, the ultimate is almost unbeatable and it's +1 is helpful against elves, affinity, tokens, coco decks where Lilliana of the Veil is weak. You already have a better control matchup by playing blight herder over smasher so my thinking is Lilliana of the Last Hope could do more. Lilliana of the last hope is also a great late game too deck.
-Wrath of God: is this a budget choice over damnation? Or does the WW work better for you?
-Blessed Alliance: I have never been very impressed with this card. I love my SB cards to be bombs. That's is why I absolutely love Stony Silence against affinity, wrath/damnation creature decks, collective brutality against burn. I get that it's a Swiss army watch and has game against deaths shadow, burn and hexproof but I would like to know how important this card is in the SB. Also have you been using the untap mode successfully? One thing came to mind is attacking with your creatures after a +1 Sorin pump and the. Having them available as a surprise untap and block while stick being pumped and lifelinked.
Problematic cards
-Ghirapur Aerher Grid: I have often completely locked down affinity but end up losing the long game to this card. This makes me want to play some disenchants. Not a bomb but a very versatile card.
-Coco: Still no real answer for this. Coco decks and elves with coco are really tough. I'm going to try Zealous Persecution due to the synergy with tokens strategy and also killing 1 toughness creatures
You have had the most success with this deck so I would love to hear your feedback. Thanks in advance!
-Tdog
Aven just deals with big mana decks so much cleaner, its just way fewer hoops to jump through than surgical, especially when either will usually get there I want the one that is more convenient to use. Although the surgical combo is more powerful, it is wildly less consistent and also has very little residual value in other matchups, where Aven is nice to pressure walkers and in general is more flexible. However, if you want to cut cards for big mana matchups to make room to hedge against other decks, Aven is certainly one of the more cuttable cards from the SB
Lotv is actually great in this type of deck because she is useful in so many matchups. Essentially any deck that cant win by turn 3 and doesn't have lingering souls or wilt-leaf she comes in. She is a rare answer to certain hard to beat cards like ensnaring bridge, and she attacks from another axis, the diversity of threats is the strength of this deck. Last hope could be good too, but she is better against decks I don't need more cards against, and way less powerful against the Jund/Grixis/UWR midrange decks of the world. Another reason I play LOTV is her utility in combo matchups, discard into her is a game winning plan, she is just so good when you can force her through countermagic and then use her to finish off their hand. Bring her in against Tron, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseum, Jund, Grixis(non pyro version), UWR, Boggles(we need the help here), Bant Drazi, Death's Shadow(LLH is pretty bad here), etc. Bottom line is Edict is better than -2/-1 in this meta, you need hard removal.
Wrath is and isn't a budget choice, it is because I don't currently own Damnations, but isn't because even if I did I would still play Wrath. WW is something Id rather prioritize in aggro matchups because of Path, I fetch plains more than swamp. The only decks I bring in Wrath and Lotv (WW and BB) dont pressure my mana and give me plenty of time to find my colors, such as Bant Eldrazi and Jund, so in those cases it doesn't matter which spell it is.
Blessed Alliance was an upgrade to spellskite, and a large one against Burn and Death's Shadow. They come in for the same matchups such as boggles and infect. The card is very flexible and powerful where you need it, but its more of a silver bullet than most of the SB. Things like LOTV and Zealous Persecution come in against a wide array of matchups, while Blessed has its 4-5 matchups. I've pleyed without the card and really missed it, its really just earned its place. I have used the untap mode before against Grixis, both edicting away a snapcaster and untapping a blight herder and scion to double block a tasigur, but it comes up very infrequently. Just the first 2 modes are enough
I used to play grafdiggers cage for coco but have since found it completely unnecessary, as the matchup is insanely favored to begin with. I replaced the cage with Aven as it hits chord as well as a huge swath of the format, and doesnt have antisynergy with lingering souls. Zealous is a house, Relic main is a house, Wrath is amazing, we kinda just grind coco decks to dust and have ample ways to prevent them from a ninja combo. The deck has also dropped in marketshare, but this all may change with amonkhet. We will see the strongest version of combo-chord yet, and that may end up requiring some tweak to the board. Aether grid is a good card against up, its a reason to leave in IOK against affinity. I agree that an answer for it would be nice, I recommend Fragmentize or plain jane Disenchant. Or if you really want a card for affinity you could play fracturing gust, it stabilizes your life a cleans up their board of any creatures, grids, and Bitterblossoms.
Hope this helps!
I am playing a 1-of smasher in my herder version and considering 1 more on the SB. He is just too good to pass. The angel seems good too, but double white hurts a little when you are prepared for double black Mana, or holding a path. Dunno, it dodges push and decay and bolt, can be a nice trick!
Regarding enchantments, I play a 1/1 split of mb/SB anguished unmaking and 2 ratchet bombs to deal with them. Blood moon, bitterblossom and mainly Intangible virtue (can't win with that card on the table, ever!) All fold to the bomb with a little setup.
I am having difficulty with sideboarding
In what matches do you sideboard out Sorin, Thoughtknots, blight herders,scullers, wasteland stranglers?
Are there any cards that you board out on the draw?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
few comparison points:
Blight herder>reality smasher... late game threat with opponent low on cards herder is harder to deal with especially with sorin its GG.
liliana, the last hope/liliana of the veil... curious to more input on this, ive tested both and have been liking the last hope. mainly for +1 and ultimate, but getting creatures back isnt bad in a discard heavy mirror of sorts. if you play fulminators she's even better.
smuggler's Copter is my scoot tech which helps with consistency and being more Aggro because it basically givs everything haste.
2 of.
basically i started winning with this deck when i started playing it as a control build, not a more aggro eldrazi list which im used to (i play bant, and GW eldrazi evolution as well) Meta call, but it feels good at the moment.
having a bit of trouble with dredge and elves it seems. dredge seems like an easy win with MB relics, but we are pretty slow, and ive found it harder than expected. Affinity has been easy for me though so far...
I'm a beginner to this deck and just got smoked by a renegade rallier Abzan build. I noticed you didn't have Cage in your SB. How would you sideboard for this matchup please? Voice and rallier were killing me and kept bringing things back from the yard