I like this. I feel like that EE in the SB should be another Ratchet bomb, simply because our EE is maxed at two and is less versatile than the bomb for games vs Sun and Moon and other grindier matchups. I think I might also suggest cutting Fetid Heath and Running a Wastes in the main (Or the other Ghost Quarter), simply because there is no card in your maindeck that has double white or double black. I understand it can be nice to not have to ping yourself off of your land, but I dont think this outweighs the ability to play around Blood Moon and kill manlands in Game 1. I agree with 2 Caverns, I feel that that number is the sweet spot for caverns, especially with 4 Flats in the Main now, since we can fetch the colors we need relatively painlessly. I myself think having two mind Stones isn't a terrible idea, but I wonder how it will pan out on paper; sometimes we do durdle, and even the cantripping doesn't help that much.
3 Push in the main/side is the perfect number. I think this card slots out easily in the tron matchup for the necessary Exile removal and Pithing needles. Also, I understand our need to defend against blood moon, but I wonder if we aren't taking too many precautions. Usually ratchet bomb and Anguished are good enough for me to deal with Blood Moon, my real issue is dealing with Stormbreath Dragon out of those lists lol.
TL:DR; I think this shell is a good starting point, but I would try and put one of your lands from the Side into the Main to make room for more sideboard options
I like this. I feel like that EE in the SB should be another Ratchet bomb, simply because our EE is maxed at two and is less versatile than the bomb for games vs Sun and Moon and other grindier matchups. I think I might also suggest cutting Fetid Heath and Running a Wastes in the main (Or the other Ghost Quarter), simply because there is no card in your maindeck that has double white or double black. I understand it can be nice to not have to ping yourself off of your land, but I dont think this outweighs the ability to play around Blood Moon and kill manlands in Game 1. I agree with 2 Caverns, I feel that that number is the sweet spot for caverns, especially with 4 Flats in the Main now, since we can fetch the colors we need relatively painlessly. I myself think having two mind Stones isn't a terrible idea, but I wonder how it will pan out on paper; sometimes we do durdle, and even the cantripping doesn't help that much.
3 Push in the main/side is the perfect number. I think this card slots out easily in the tron matchup for the necessary Exile removal and Pithing needles. Also, I understand our need to defend against blood moon, but I wonder if we aren't taking too many precautions. Usually ratchet bomb and Anguished are good enough for me to deal with Blood Moon, my real issue is dealing with Stormbreath Dragon out of those lists lol.
TL:DR; I think this shell is a good starting point, but I would try and put one of your lands from the Side into the Main to make room for more sideboard options
The EE can easily be another ratchet bomb, but EE also serves a different purpose, where it wipes CMC 0-2 on the turn I play it. The difference in speed is worth it for EE IMO, it's just personal preference.
The Fetid Heath cannot get cut for a colorless land, it would need to get replaced by either an Isolated Chapel or Concealed Courtyard. I choose Fetid Heath because I want as few taplands as possible, and Fetid Heath also produces colorless. In the main there is no BB or WW, but there is BW: Anguished, Sorin, Shambling, and Vault. In the side there is: Damnation, Anguished, EE. I would love to fit a third Ghost Quarter in the main, or the wastes in the main to make more room in the sideboard, but the only card I could cut for that is Cavern of Souls. Feels better to have my two caverns for G1, two GQ's as well, and be able to bring in the third and swap out an uneeded cavern for G2 and G3 against Tron and Valakut.
Blood moon should see a rise in being played as a result of greedy midrange and control decks seeing more play. With two mind stones, and ways to fetch a wastes, it shouldn't be that difficult to at the very least be able to get out some eldrazi for board presence and to put on a clock. Really the wastes is the only card in the 75 in there specifically for Blood Moon, ratchet bomb and anguished both have many other cards to remove. If you're reliably able to get a ratchet bomb to 3 or get a B/W for anguished with blood moon on the field you are either mulliganing incredibly well or getting lucky draws, it can take several turns to even draw into an answer to blood moon and by then they've run away with the game. Maybe the wastes isn't necessary, but it feels a lot better to have as many outs to blood moon as possible so we can keep playing magic and stop passing the turn. But you're right that there could/should be a couple more copies of cards in the side and room needs to be made somewhere.
Those are all good points. I'v also been toying with Lost Legacy as a way to answer Blood moon out of the board, but it feels hit or miss A LOT. I'm heading to a modern tournament tonight and I'm trying out a singleton Blight herder in the Main because of all the midrange in my shop. I've adjusted my list tonight to represent something closer to yours, although I simply don't own the second Mind Stone, so I'm just playing Herder in its spot. (I FULLY expect to be punished for a higher curve but we will see!) Herder also has the convenient upside of Dodging Blood moon and helping us play through it by saccing scions. I'll let you know if it plays out like that tonight.
I'm trying a wastes in the side tonight, with a cavern main. I expect a lot of midrange control today, simply because lots of the players in my shop have the luxury of swapping decks on a whim, when they see who has shown up. (I.e. Goblin guy shows up, everyone jams maindeck angers before the tournament)I've also cut Liliana, the Last Hope from the deck on account of it doesn't kill anything Wasteland Strangler can't. It's nice to buy back Reality Smashers, but I feel that the double black can be constricting on the manabase as well. There have also been a few games where her -2 puts two smashers in the yard along with the first one, making it awkward. Lost legacy is the card I want to test the most tonight; A few Ad Nauseum players have shown up, and I'd like to try and get them game 2 with an on curve Legacy to see how it pans out. (As noted before, it also hits Blood Moon) Hopefully I'll have a good tournament report for you tonight after the games
ALSO! For anyone who wants to help refine a list for me to play at Regionals in NY, let me know! I've signed up and am prepping hard for the tournament. Hopefully I'll have a good showing and put us on the map! If anyone else is going, let me know and we can collaborate further. Cheers!
I gotta be honest here, I do not worry much about Blood Moon any more. I have four ways to get a Plains in my opening 7, five ways to get a Swamp, and (post-board) three ways get C. (This is all just drawing into sources naturally, here.) Including Path and GQ, I almost never find that I am stuck on mana, as long as I knew to plan for Moon coming down. Against Blood Moon decks I always keep Path in, and I use Path and GQ first and foremost as mana-fixing tools in such cases. It's been my experience that Moon decks usually do not apply a ton of pressure, giving me room to play against tempo like this and allowing me time to tick Bomb up to 3 when needed. However, without the Wastes (and the seven tutors for it in my Paths and GQs) I would feel much more vulnerable. It's a convenient synergy that Wastes painlessly replaces another colorless land when facing decks that run Path or GQ themselves, making it much better than it would be if we didn't have Cavern or Vault to side out.
If Lost Legacy hit lands I would be all about it, but as it is I am not sold, personally.
Fatal Push is pulling my build in all kinds of weird directions. I found myself wondering about cutting Mind Stone for a 25th land (the Wastes in the main) and all kinds of other tweaks that, at first, seem minor--but then end up having significant tensions with other angles I am trying to play. Not sure about how this will settle out, especially if Tron makes a resurgence.
On another note, here is my beta build of an Eldrazi Rock (BGC) deck I am thinking about trying out, feedback is welcome. I may start a new thread, if this looks like it's a real thing after a month or two.
Is it too greedy to consider going down to 1 Swamp to make room for the wastes in the main? Obviously push puts more of an emphasis with needing a T1 black source, but perhaps we can hold off another turn and Thoughtseize or push on T2 instead since T2 is pretty open to plays with this deck. We'd be down to 13 B and 13 W, also wed have one less fetchable land from Marsh Flats. If I went this route I might end up cutting either Fetid Heath or shambling vent for a 3rd godless Shrine. Speaking of shambling vent, are we certain we still need two of them now that push can easily remove it? Maybe one is the way to go, to cut down on tap lands even more.
Is a second CoBr necessary in the side? Obviously it has good value, but other than burn are there many matchups where activating 2-3 modes regularly happens? Just trying to finish off that sideboard and figure out what can be cut.
Knowing a blood moon can be dropping is such a huge deal. Winning game 1 can be very difficult because we keep a bad blood moon hand or Crack a fetch too early, setting us back and giving them turns to get ahead. The quicker we can get board presence through a blood moon the better, and that's why a wastes in the side is needed, to have the maximum number of outs.
The two lands in the side, as deaddrift said, can be swapped for the two caverns, which is seamless to do and that's the main reason I'd even consider two lands in the side.
Lili, the Last Hope did underperform for me in two mtgo leaguess after I picked it up. I had times where I'd have it in hand on T3 but had better plays because there was no creature to -2/-1, I had it get inquisitioned away on T2 against jund before I dropped it T3 on the play, and I had it recur a creature one time before being bolted or something to kill her. I was winning without the card, and we have a plethora of removal that kills creatures larger than 1 toughness. It just doesn't fit than the curve of the deck nearly as well as Sorin, and T3 dropping a Planeswalker over a TKS or souls is way too durdley, she'll just get killedone because we have zero board presence to block attackers.
Edit: After checking with Frank's mana article, having 13B gives a 90% chance of casting seize or push on T2. I think this might be doable, playing a godless or shambling tapped on T1 to Thoughtseize on T2 feels just fine, and 2 swamps is basically just for T1 black spells. Also the article shows how difficult it is to cast a two color spell on T3 or T4, suggesting 18 or 19 sources to do it 90% of the time. The Fetid Heath helps that a bit.
I feel that you have too many colorless sources in your deck. I would up the number of concealed courtyards to have the option to turn 1 fatal push or thoughtseize. You only need 11 C producing lands if you have the two mind stones to reach the required 12 C sources. I would recommend:
-1 marsh flats Between the relics, ghost quarter, and mind stone it is not hard to activate the revolt mechanic.
-1 collective brutality This might be a mistake but the primary role of this card was to strip their hand and/or kill a creature. I feel that this is taken care of between targeted discard and fatal push.
-1 wasteland strangler This card is great but we don't need 4 of them. I would try out a singleton eldrazi displacer instead. Eldrazi displacer is a powerhouse that can take over games. It helps us against stalled board states (by flickering opponents creatures and having them come into play tapped), nullifies gavony township (this card is the worst to play against, and gives us a mill win con and/or draw step control by flickering a thought-knot seer.
-1 reality smasher I feel that 4 CMC 5 creatures is just too many. We want this creature every game, but it is bad in multiples in our opening hand.
-1 anguished unmaking If your meta is filled with tron, I would have a couple main board. Otherwise our discard spells can remove problematic cards before they are a problem.
+3 Concealed courtyard I know that people are concerned with this coming into play tapped on turn 4 which could delay playing reality smasher. The probability of that is pretty low and I would rather have a pain-free land to use a fatal push on turn 1 against aggressive decks and not take too much damage from a turn 1 discard spell. Taking less damage with our lands also justifies cutting collective brutality.
This is the best list I can come up with with these B/R updates, but I'm just not quite satisfied with the sideboard. The maindeck looks pretty solid, I went up to 3 Reshapers because there should be less decks going over the top or ignoring it, more grindy games where it dies to combat or bolt or push,and matchups like tron and valakut where T2 reshaper is a great start to putting on a fast clock. 2 Cavern of souls and 2 Ghost quarters, I would like to play 3 GQ's maindeck a lot, but there is an insane amount of blue control in my area and the Cavern of Souls brings many tears. I need to maindeck two of them to be able to cast my eldrazi with no regard to counters, it changes the matchup against U tron and UW control immensly when you can jam your eldrazi. Without Caverns on mtgo it feels much less effective to bait counters or play around them. I was at a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize and CoBr, but definitely back up to 3 TS now with the probe ban. We need to disrupt the opponent's plan T1, we need to see their hand, we need to be able to take everything from ensnaring bridge to thought-knot to karn, and we don't give no ****s about paying 2 life and fetch-shocking down to 15 to do it because we cool like that. For some reason 3 relics and 2 mind stones just feels right. It feels like those durdley opens where you draw into 3 relics and a mind stone in the first 4 draws should happen way less, outside of these 5 cards every non-land card outside of a lategame thoughtseize is going to do something for us. 3 relics should be more than enough to power strangler, and the need to always have it against snapcaster decks isn't too high as we are already favored against those decks, same thing with Jund (which we should be feasting on as it rises once again). I honestly think I'd go down to even 2 relics maindeck before I'd cut any of the other cards out, especially since I want to keep 4 paths so I wouldn't be losing out on too much exiling early in the game. 2 mind stones feel necessary, think of it as a relic that gives us ramp rather than interacts with the graveyard at a cost of 1 more CMC to cast, seems good. It enables us to ramp and put the pressure on the -should be- slower meta, and it also enables T3 damnation which is the nuts against decks like elves and merfolk and zoo.
The sideboard feels like it should have 17 slots, hell 20. The 2-ofs as it stands I feel need to be 2-ofs, because of the need to have them early and because drawing both copies in 1 game isn't bad at all. I really want a second surgical and a second stony in there. Maybe a fatal push in the side isn't necessary? We keep it in against most of the field so why would we need a third to bring in when we can't take enough cards out to make room? Wastes feels needed unless you are all but certain you won't be seeing a blood moon opponent, ghost quarter to swap out for cavern when cavern isn't needed. EE/ratchet as sweepers, fish and elves are still very much a thing, and ratchet is a catch-all we need. I had a very hard time taking ratchet out of the maindeck because of how versatile it is, and the need to have a catch-all that isn't anguished so it can easily remove blood moon, but ultimately I need to think of game 1 as trying to execute my deck's plan rather than commit to per-emptively stopping the opponent's. Games 2 and 3 are still very winnable thanks to the sideboard. A second anguish to bring in against infect and tron, mostly tron. It's also quite fine againt jund as that matchup is all about topdecking more removal/threats and whoever draws more durdle loses. A second CoBr to bring in against burn and infect, with it's synergy with Lingering Souls we definitely want to be able to bring in a second copy for dat value. But a second stony silence and second surgical should be in there. Stony is a card we want in an opening hand against tron or affinity, is 1 enough to draw it when we need it? Is two too much because of all the artifacts we ourselves run? And the second surgical to pull off the combo-wombo against tron and valakut, but do we really need two surgicals against any other matchups (it is still very very good against dredge, which isn't entirely gone with the latest ban but I also have literally never seen anyone at any local stores play dredge in a paper tournament).
Let me know what you think of the maindeck, and how you'd fill out the cramped sideboard. It's hard to speculate on where the meta of modern will go, but I think it's safe to say it will get slower and grindier, Jund and Tron will be increasing, as will blood moon decks.
Sorry Tituba9, didn't mean to overlook your post earlier. Your list there is almost identical to what I came up with, and like you I wish I had more room for Stony and Surgical in the side. I am very concerned about Tron and Valakut, and would rather have a better plan that just "hope to dodge." I can definitely see running two Caverns in a counter-heavy meta, and I think since the second one helps strengthen those matches, losing a Relic is less of an issue when facing off against Snapcaster and company. However we might also see Living End and Abzan Company come back to some extent, if Dredge takes a significant hit.
I'm interested in your Burn match; are 2x Brutality and 2x Alliance (plus Vent, Vault, and Sorin) enough? I am keeping Timely Reinforcements in my board for now.
Sorry Tituba9, didn't mean to overlook your post earlier. Your list there is almost identical to what I came up with, and like you I wish I had more room for Stony and Surgical in the side. I am very concerned about Tron and Valakut, and would rather have a better plan that just "hope to dodge." I can definitely see running two Caverns in a counter-heavy meta, and I think since the second one helps strengthen those matches, losing a Relic is less of an issue when facing off against Snapcaster and company. However we might also see Living End and Abzan Company come back to some extent, if Dredge takes a significant hit.
I'm interested in your Burn match; are 2x Brutality and 2x Alliance (plus Vent, Vault, and Sorin) enough? I am keeping Timely Reinforcements in my board for now.
Ghost Quarter + Surgical is the real deal against GX tron, and obviously valakut. I did a friendly league on mtgo after work last night, went 3-2, beating a budget burn list, losing to merfolk, and going an impressive 2-1 against GX tron. In two of the matches I pulled off surg + GQ, and in one game even followed it up with T3 Stony silence, and won those games and it wasn't even close. In the latter game, I literally did not draw a land in my first 9-11 draws, and was stuck on 2 lands for an insane amount of turns, putting on zero pressure until I was able to discard a souls and cast it for flashback, and STILL won the game handily. Even in the lost match against tron I took a game. Game 1 is pretty much impossible to win without bad top decks from them, but post-board I'm not really afraid of it as much. Just mull to a hand with 2 of these 3: surgical, Stony, GQ, and plan for that to slow them down quite a bit. It makes me feel even stronger that we must have two surgicals in the side (also to help interact with the GY now that we have 3 relics), and a second Stony does seem good with how much it shuts down multiple cards from tron and affinity in their hand and on the board.
The burn matchup hasn't been bad, most often I lose game 1 obviously, unless I pull off a double escalated CoBr, which seems to make game 1 incredibly winnable. I do think blessed, CoBr, and the main deck lifegain are enough to win post-board, especially when you factor in processing rift bolt with strangler or stealing a burn spell with TKS. Timely is just too narrow and too difficult to ensure you get the +6 lifegain, especially when it's Sorcery speed and they can skullcrack in response. That and it's not very effective in many other matchups. I've honestly been thinking of cutting the CoBr in the side to make room for surgical/stony, because CoBr is best against infect, burn, and UR prowess, and two of those decks took a hit with the probe ban. Thoughts on that?
Against both tron and burn I have no issues aggressively mulling for sideboard cards, down to 5 or 4, and many of my losses against burn involve them having 2-3 lands and top decking nothing but gas turn after turn, if they durdle for a turn or give me lifegain or interaction via discard, I'm feeling pretty good.
Went 3-1 last night with a similar list as deadrift. Only difference in my list is I played 4 matter reshaper.
I beat elves, burn, and lantern control. Burn was a walk in the park. Elves and lantern were grindy games.
I also lost to another similar elves deck which was also close.
MVP of the night was Eidelon of Rhetoric. I think this is the best card against aggro and go wide strategies. Every time I landed that whether it was turn 3 or late game it won me the game. It was even better than damnation in he elves matchup. I actually lost a match against elves where I damnationed 2x in 1 game. So impressed with eidelon of Rhetoric, in going to go up to 2x in my SB now.
I'm excited for fatal push to come out. Thanks for all of the reporting and tips everyone.
Haven't played it... my mom is pretty ill and I've been taking care of her for the past few days, and will be for the rest of the week. I also have to write extensive substitute teacher plans for my classroom, which takes forever. Not going to make any prereleases or FNM-type events for a little while. If I can, later this week I'll run some trials on cockatrice, but the competition and overall meta there can be pretty uneven. So much UW control there, I hate it. Those matches take forever with Processors... maybe they'll go quicker with Eldrazi Rock.
Overall I think the deck is probably not that good though; I think there's likely to be too much tension between getting a full graveyard for Goyf and Flayer, and just ramping to big spaghetti. The idea was for the green creatures to fill the gaps on T2, but we'll see. If BB can semi-regularly hit the yard then it might be a thing, I suppose.
Let me know if you get your Excel workbook into English (as I don't read any Deutsch), I still would love to run some numbers myself. I think that kind of hard data is invaluable as a way to correct for confirmation bias.
Went 3-0 this week at FNM. First time playing with the deck even... I was really impressed. Also, Lingering Souls is a really good card in almost every situation.
First matchup was against White Trash. 2-1
This was a creature heavy deck relying on enchantments and auras. It just couldn't handle the hand disruption plus always having blockers available.
Second matchup was against Affinity. 2-1
This was more of a budget Affinity list but was still pretty fast. Beat me game 1 IIRC and then I won both games after that. Blessed Alliance actually was the most useful thing post board here actually. Taking his creatures with hand disruption and having him sac his attacking creatures that were on the field worked really well. All the attachments and equipment in the world is useless if you can't attach it to anything.
Third matchip was against UW Control. 2-1
Apparently getting 2 Reality Smashers on the board two games in a row is pretty game ending.
This was the list I played with (Fatal Push in sideboard was left empty since the card isn't legal yet, was playing with 13 SB cards) and it was pretty consistent:
I've honestly been thinking of cutting the CoBr in the side to make room for surgical/stony, because CoBr is best against infect, burn, and UR prowess, and two of those decks took a hit with the probe ban. Thoughts on that?
I dunno, the deck is discard-light and Brutality hits a lot of stuff. I think its versatility is strong enough that two are warranted--hits Scapeshift, Through the Breach, Wrath effects, counterspells, etc. I might try losing the Timely SB though.
Skia_AoP: Glad you liked the deck! Question: why not Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing? Seems strictly better to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
Yeah, I've actually moved the second CoBr to the main for 5 total discard, and gone down to 2 reshapers in my latest post-Revolt list. Also finally trimmed the Fetid Heath, the BW is really nice T3 or later, but it does not at all regularly provide B or W T1 or T2, which is when we need our B/W most often, especially with the addition of push. I took it out to get up to 3 main deck GQs, 2 caverns, and still be at 13B/13C/12W for lands. I've been messing around with the land base quite a bit, and was quite unhappy with any list having a wastes in the main as it felt it cut into our colorless providing Utility landslots; the latest build is 1 short on B and W, but it also allows me to main deck 3 GQs and only run 1 wastes for lands in the side. Im just not satisifed with 2 GQs in the 75 but i also want to keep 2 caverns. The move of CoBr to the main and third GQ to the main has allowed me to shore up the sideboard to allow 2 stonies and 2 surgicals. Even with the shortness of 1 B/W land, it's the list that im overall the most satisfied with.
Skia_AoP: Glad you liked the deck! Question: why not Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing? Seems strictly better to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
Honest answer: There isn't a single printing of Disenchant that doesn't make me want to tear the card in half. Such an ugly card haha. So I just play Seal of Cleansing and sac it immediately instead. But yeah, Disenchant is technically better as an instant.
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Skia_AoP: Glad you liked the deck! Question: why not Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing? Seems strictly better to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
Honest answer: There isn't a single printing of Disenchant that doesn't make me want to tear the card in half. Such an ugly card haha. So I just play Seal of Cleansing and sac it immediately instead. But yeah, Disenchant is technically better as an instant.
Err, Seal of Cleansing is not legal in Modern. It's been printed in Nemesis, Commander 2015, as an FNM Promo, and Eternal Masters. Also Vintage Masters online.
Believe me, I'd love to play it with Sun Titan, or to grow Goyf/Flayer in Abzan, but it is not legal.
Yeah, I've actually moved the second CoBr to the main for 5 total discard, and gone down to 2 reshapers in my latest post-Revolt list. Also finally trimmed the Fetid Heath, the BW is really nice T3 or later, but it does not at all regularly provide B or W T1 or T2, which is when we need our B/W most often, especially with the addition of push. I took it out to get up to 3 main deck GQs, 2 caverns, and still be at 13B/13C/12W for lands. I've been messing around with the land base quite a bit, and was quite unhappy with any list having a wastes in the main as it felt it cut into our colorless providing Utility landslots; the latest build is 1 short on B and W, but it also allows me to main deck 3 GQs and only run 1 wastes for lands in the side. Im just not satisifed with 2 GQs in the 75 but i also want to keep 2 caverns. The move of CoBr to the main and third GQ to the main has allowed me to shore up the sideboard to allow 2 stonies and 2 surgicals. Even with the shortness of 1 B/W land, it's the list that im overall the most satisfied with.
I gotta say, you and I see pretty eye-to-eye about what makes this deck work, Tituba9. I agree 100% about having 3 GQ in the main, I think it's very important. And I too accept being a tad short of the ideal T1 B count, as a cost of playing the utility lands we do.
I learned about the trap of Fetid Heath back when I played another BW deck and a bunch (but far fewer) of colorless lands. I think it would be really good with Sculler though.
Here's where I am going for the first week or two, when I find some time to play. I cut a Relic (can't believe it!) and... I went to 61 cards main.
You'll notice I also cut Timely, though I have enough respect for Burn that I'm not too comfortable with that, especially if Burn moves to a more spell-based approach.
I have one Surgical main because I want to hit Tron with it in game 1. I figure since SE is "free" it's not really pressuring the deck in the same way as another card would, right? (Shut up, I know I lost a cantrip and gained a card-disadvantage piece, alright?!) But seriously, I meet a Tron and a Valakut player a lot at the top tables at my LGS so I'm gonna try it out again.
Three Pushes main for now, for fast aggro and mana dorks--and I want to actually see how good Push is, so I'll need to be drawing it regularly if I want to test it. The change to Push also made me decide to up my Flats to four, and cut a Caves. I fully expect to see dead Flats at times with this approach. Might be that Revolt is not as necessary as I think right now, though.
If I had room for 2x Cavern and a lot of control in my meta I would totally run two, but as it is I think one only is right for me.
I did not know that about Seal of Cleansing. Huh. Here is the Disenchant I own--agreed that most are awful looking, and I have a little pet peeve about not liking non-Modern card frames in my decks.
I did not know that about Seal of Cleansing. Huh. Here is the Disenchant I play--agreed that most are awful looking, and I have a little pet peeve about not liking non-Modern card frames in my decks.
Well, that one is a little better than most that I have seen.
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My current modern paper decks with current match records since 02/01/17:
Nice to see you are including SE main like I did. It really does the trick whenever you get it in hands as mostly there will be atleast 1 thing in the GY that you really want to get rid off, be it a spell, nonbasic land or an annoying creature; anything goes and mostly rips your opponent for 3 cards.
3x Fatal Push I'll have to try. It's 100% better for mana dorks which you really don't want to be Pathing.
After the B&R people in my region expect more Tron/(Grixis) Control, do you guys expect that as well? If it turns out to be correct that more control is going to be played adding more Caverns will be necessary.
I regularly play against some sort of Control and i always do fine.
Ugliest Control-Deck at teh moment is UW because it's a crap bunch of removal and sweeper.
Grixis and Jeskai is kinda cakewalk - they are either too slow to keep up with our threats or rely heavily on a resolved Ancestral Vision.
Tron is an issue for us as we are intend to be too slow to keep up with them.
3 Push in the main/side is the perfect number. I think this card slots out easily in the tron matchup for the necessary Exile removal and Pithing needles. Also, I understand our need to defend against blood moon, but I wonder if we aren't taking too many precautions. Usually ratchet bomb and Anguished are good enough for me to deal with Blood Moon, my real issue is dealing with Stormbreath Dragon out of those lists lol.
TL:DR; I think this shell is a good starting point, but I would try and put one of your lands from the Side into the Main to make room for more sideboard options
The EE can easily be another ratchet bomb, but EE also serves a different purpose, where it wipes CMC 0-2 on the turn I play it. The difference in speed is worth it for EE IMO, it's just personal preference.
The Fetid Heath cannot get cut for a colorless land, it would need to get replaced by either an Isolated Chapel or Concealed Courtyard. I choose Fetid Heath because I want as few taplands as possible, and Fetid Heath also produces colorless. In the main there is no BB or WW, but there is BW: Anguished, Sorin, Shambling, and Vault. In the side there is: Damnation, Anguished, EE. I would love to fit a third Ghost Quarter in the main, or the wastes in the main to make more room in the sideboard, but the only card I could cut for that is Cavern of Souls. Feels better to have my two caverns for G1, two GQ's as well, and be able to bring in the third and swap out an uneeded cavern for G2 and G3 against Tron and Valakut.
Blood moon should see a rise in being played as a result of greedy midrange and control decks seeing more play. With two mind stones, and ways to fetch a wastes, it shouldn't be that difficult to at the very least be able to get out some eldrazi for board presence and to put on a clock. Really the wastes is the only card in the 75 in there specifically for Blood Moon, ratchet bomb and anguished both have many other cards to remove. If you're reliably able to get a ratchet bomb to 3 or get a B/W for anguished with blood moon on the field you are either mulliganing incredibly well or getting lucky draws, it can take several turns to even draw into an answer to blood moon and by then they've run away with the game. Maybe the wastes isn't necessary, but it feels a lot better to have as many outs to blood moon as possible so we can keep playing magic and stop passing the turn. But you're right that there could/should be a couple more copies of cards in the side and room needs to be made somewhere.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
I'm trying a wastes in the side tonight, with a cavern main. I expect a lot of midrange control today, simply because lots of the players in my shop have the luxury of swapping decks on a whim, when they see who has shown up. (I.e. Goblin guy shows up, everyone jams maindeck angers before the tournament)I've also cut Liliana, the Last Hope from the deck on account of it doesn't kill anything Wasteland Strangler can't. It's nice to buy back Reality Smashers, but I feel that the double black can be constricting on the manabase as well. There have also been a few games where her -2 puts two smashers in the yard along with the first one, making it awkward. Lost legacy is the card I want to test the most tonight; A few Ad Nauseum players have shown up, and I'd like to try and get them game 2 with an on curve Legacy to see how it pans out. (As noted before, it also hits Blood Moon) Hopefully I'll have a good tournament report for you tonight after the games
ALSO! For anyone who wants to help refine a list for me to play at Regionals in NY, let me know! I've signed up and am prepping hard for the tournament. Hopefully I'll have a good showing and put us on the map! If anyone else is going, let me know and we can collaborate further. Cheers!
If Lost Legacy hit lands I would be all about it, but as it is I am not sold, personally.
Fatal Push is pulling my build in all kinds of weird directions. I found myself wondering about cutting Mind Stone for a 25th land (the Wastes in the main) and all kinds of other tweaks that, at first, seem minor--but then end up having significant tensions with other angles I am trying to play. Not sure about how this will settle out, especially if Tron makes a resurgence.
On another note, here is my beta build of an Eldrazi Rock (BGC) deck I am thinking about trying out, feedback is welcome. I may start a new thread, if this looks like it's a real thing after a month or two.
Is a second CoBr necessary in the side? Obviously it has good value, but other than burn are there many matchups where activating 2-3 modes regularly happens? Just trying to finish off that sideboard and figure out what can be cut.
Knowing a blood moon can be dropping is such a huge deal. Winning game 1 can be very difficult because we keep a bad blood moon hand or Crack a fetch too early, setting us back and giving them turns to get ahead. The quicker we can get board presence through a blood moon the better, and that's why a wastes in the side is needed, to have the maximum number of outs.
The two lands in the side, as deaddrift said, can be swapped for the two caverns, which is seamless to do and that's the main reason I'd even consider two lands in the side.
Lili, the Last Hope did underperform for me in two mtgo leaguess after I picked it up. I had times where I'd have it in hand on T3 but had better plays because there was no creature to -2/-1, I had it get inquisitioned away on T2 against jund before I dropped it T3 on the play, and I had it recur a creature one time before being bolted or something to kill her. I was winning without the card, and we have a plethora of removal that kills creatures larger than 1 toughness. It just doesn't fit than the curve of the deck nearly as well as Sorin, and T3 dropping a Planeswalker over a TKS or souls is way too durdley, she'll just get killedone because we have zero board presence to block attackers.
Edit: After checking with Frank's mana article, having 13B gives a 90% chance of casting seize or push on T2. I think this might be doable, playing a godless or shambling tapped on T1 to Thoughtseize on T2 feels just fine, and 2 swamps is basically just for T1 black spells. Also the article shows how difficult it is to cast a two color spell on T3 or T4, suggesting 18 or 19 sources to do it 90% of the time. The Fetid Heath helps that a bit.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
This would make your deck look like this:
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Concealed Courtyard
3 Caves of Koilos
2 Shambling Vent
2 Godless Shrine
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Marsh Flats
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
Sorcery - 9
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
Artifact - 5
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mind Stone
Planeswalker - 1
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Wasteland Strangler
2 Eldrazi displacer
3 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
For the sideboard I would start with this:
2 anguished unmaking
2 damnation
2 disenchant (There might be a lot of UB tezzeret decks running around, also easily kills blood moon)
1 fatal push
1 engineered explosives
1 worship
1 celestial purge
3 other cards
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
I'm interested in your Burn match; are 2x Brutality and 2x Alliance (plus Vent, Vault, and Sorin) enough? I am keeping Timely Reinforcements in my board for now.
Ghost Quarter + Surgical is the real deal against GX tron, and obviously valakut. I did a friendly league on mtgo after work last night, went 3-2, beating a budget burn list, losing to merfolk, and going an impressive 2-1 against GX tron. In two of the matches I pulled off surg + GQ, and in one game even followed it up with T3 Stony silence, and won those games and it wasn't even close. In the latter game, I literally did not draw a land in my first 9-11 draws, and was stuck on 2 lands for an insane amount of turns, putting on zero pressure until I was able to discard a souls and cast it for flashback, and STILL won the game handily. Even in the lost match against tron I took a game. Game 1 is pretty much impossible to win without bad top decks from them, but post-board I'm not really afraid of it as much. Just mull to a hand with 2 of these 3: surgical, Stony, GQ, and plan for that to slow them down quite a bit. It makes me feel even stronger that we must have two surgicals in the side (also to help interact with the GY now that we have 3 relics), and a second Stony does seem good with how much it shuts down multiple cards from tron and affinity in their hand and on the board.
The burn matchup hasn't been bad, most often I lose game 1 obviously, unless I pull off a double escalated CoBr, which seems to make game 1 incredibly winnable. I do think blessed, CoBr, and the main deck lifegain are enough to win post-board, especially when you factor in processing rift bolt with strangler or stealing a burn spell with TKS. Timely is just too narrow and too difficult to ensure you get the +6 lifegain, especially when it's Sorcery speed and they can skullcrack in response. That and it's not very effective in many other matchups. I've honestly been thinking of cutting the CoBr in the side to make room for surgical/stony, because CoBr is best against infect, burn, and UR prowess, and two of those decks took a hit with the probe ban. Thoughts on that?
Against both tron and burn I have no issues aggressively mulling for sideboard cards, down to 5 or 4, and many of my losses against burn involve them having 2-3 lands and top decking nothing but gas turn after turn, if they durdle for a turn or give me lifegain or interaction via discard, I'm feeling pretty good.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
I beat elves, burn, and lantern control. Burn was a walk in the park. Elves and lantern were grindy games.
I also lost to another similar elves deck which was also close.
MVP of the night was Eidelon of Rhetoric. I think this is the best card against aggro and go wide strategies. Every time I landed that whether it was turn 3 or late game it won me the game. It was even better than damnation in he elves matchup. I actually lost a match against elves where I damnationed 2x in 1 game. So impressed with eidelon of Rhetoric, in going to go up to 2x in my SB now.
I'm excited for fatal push to come out. Thanks for all of the reporting and tips everyone.
Overall I think the deck is probably not that good though; I think there's likely to be too much tension between getting a full graveyard for Goyf and Flayer, and just ramping to big spaghetti. The idea was for the green creatures to fill the gaps on T2, but we'll see. If BB can semi-regularly hit the yard then it might be a thing, I suppose.
Let me know if you get your Excel workbook into English (as I don't read any Deutsch), I still would love to run some numbers myself. I think that kind of hard data is invaluable as a way to correct for confirmation bias.
First matchup was against White Trash. 2-1
This was a creature heavy deck relying on enchantments and auras. It just couldn't handle the hand disruption plus always having blockers available.
Second matchup was against Affinity. 2-1
This was more of a budget Affinity list but was still pretty fast. Beat me game 1 IIRC and then I won both games after that. Blessed Alliance actually was the most useful thing post board here actually. Taking his creatures with hand disruption and having him sac his attacking creatures that were on the field worked really well. All the attachments and equipment in the world is useless if you can't attach it to anything.
Third matchip was against UW Control. 2-1
Apparently getting 2 Reality Smashers on the board two games in a row is pretty game ending.
This was the list I played with (Fatal Push in sideboard was left empty since the card isn't legal yet, was playing with 13 SB cards) and it was pretty consistent:
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Wasteland Strangler
3 Matter Reshaper
Spells
4 Path to Exile
1 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Go for the Throat
Planeswalkers
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Artifacts
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mind Stone
1 Oblivion Ring
Lands
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Godless Shrine
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Shambling Vent
3 Marsh Flats
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Extirpate
2 Fatal Push
2 Seal of Cleansing
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
Skia_AoP: Glad you liked the deck! Question: why not Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing? Seems strictly better to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
Honest answer: There isn't a single printing of Disenchant that doesn't make me want to tear the card in half. Such an ugly card haha. So I just play Seal of Cleansing and sac it immediately instead. But yeah, Disenchant is technically better as an instant.
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
Believe me, I'd love to play it with Sun Titan, or to grow Goyf/Flayer in Abzan, but it is not legal.
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
I learned about the trap of Fetid Heath back when I played another BW deck and a bunch (but far fewer) of colorless lands. I think it would be really good with Sculler though.
Here's where I am going for the first week or two, when I find some time to play. I cut a Relic (can't believe it!) and... I went to 61 cards main.
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Caves of Koilos
1x Concealed Courtyard
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
Artifact (5)
2x Mind Stone
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Anguished Unmaking
3x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
1x Surgical Extraction
Creature (15)
3x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Wasteland Strangler
Sorcery (8)
1x Collective Brutality
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Go for the Throat
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Stony Silence
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Wastes
I did not know that about Seal of Cleansing. Huh. Here is the Disenchant I own--agreed that most are awful looking, and I have a little pet peeve about not liking non-Modern card frames in my decks.
Well, that one is a little better than most that I have seen.
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
3x Fatal Push I'll have to try. It's 100% better for mana dorks which you really don't want to be Pathing.
After the B&R people in my region expect more Tron/(Grixis) Control, do you guys expect that as well? If it turns out to be correct that more control is going to be played adding more Caverns will be necessary.
Please go with 2 CoBr, it's such a powerhouse.
Ugliest Control-Deck at teh moment is UW because it's a crap bunch of removal and sweeper.
Grixis and Jeskai is kinda cakewalk - they are either too slow to keep up with our threats or rely heavily on a resolved Ancestral Vision.
Tron is an issue for us as we are intend to be too slow to keep up with them.
Green @ it's best