Well I don't think it actually plays out quite as "tempo-y" as you'd imagine. Trading 1 for 1 actually doesn't really occur being that our creatures are usually bigger and thus we can usually race, block favorably, or simply attack into blockers, usually gaining advantage out of them losing multiple blockers to one attacker, or just killing a chump. Our hate bear creatures don't typically trade unless the situation is dire. With all that said though, I still totally agree with you about Retreat. For that reason, I've still kept 3 of them in my sideboard for match-ups where comboing off is better than not. I think it's still an important aspect of the deck, not to mention it is downright scary for our opponents, to potentially just lose the game on turn 3. I like having the combo in the board too, because it keeps my opponent off of information for game 2. They almost never side in enchantment removal if they don't see it in game 1. If we win game 1 the fair way, we can more easily win game 2 with the combo in that our opponents will likely not have prepared for it.
Well I don't think it actually plays out quite as "tempo-y" as you'd imagine. Trading 1 for 1 actually doesn't really occur being that our creatures are usually bigger and thus we can usually race, block favorably, or simply attack into blockers, usually gaining advantage out of them losing multiple blockers to one attacker, or just killing a chump. Our hate bear creatures don't typically trade unless the situation is dire. With all that said though, I still totally agree with you about Retreat. For that reason, I've still kept 3 of them in my sideboard for match-ups where comboing off is better than not. I think it's still an important aspect of the deck, not to mention it is downright scary for our opponents, to potentially just lose the game on turn 3. I like having the combo in the board too, because it keeps my opponent off of information for game 2. They almost never side in enchantment removal if they don't see it in game 1. If we win game 1 the fair way, we can more easily win game 2 with the combo in that our opponents will likely not have prepared for it.
That's very true. I hear a lot of people talk about siding the combo out, but I don't think it's ever come up. If I think they have removal, I'll wait to drop Retreat until I know I can get the combo. Everything else can happen at instant speed, so even if they target Retreat, you can just combo over top of it. Reading that over, it sounds a bit naive, but the combo can get you out of so many unwinnable situations. I almost always feel bad thinking of siding it out, and keeping it in hasn't seemed to be a detriment thusfar.
I think when it comes down to it, there is really no wrong way to do it. Knightfall/Bant Company is a super flexible deck, that I think really caters well to the current meta. I think my favorite thing about it, is that it seemingly has a maindeck answer to anything. Even while Eldrazi was running rampant, we were one of the few decks that didn't just roll over to it. Now with Eye of Ugin gone, I don't think there is really anywhere to go but up for us. I really hope this deck style becomes more popular so we can get more people in on tweaking and fine tuning, sharing results, etc. I miss that aspect quite a lot during my time with Twin. I'm really happy to have found a new home in this deck and I would love to see more and more people find that same spark I found here. I can't wait to see where it goes in the "Less Eldrazi" Meta.
I think when it comes down to it, there is really no wrong way to do it. Knightfall/Bant Company is a super flexible deck, that I think really caters well to the current meta. I think my favorite thing about it, is that it seemingly has a maindeck answer to anything. Even while Eldrazi was running rampant, we were one of the few decks that didn't just roll over to it. Now with Eye of Ugin gone, I don't think there is really anywhere to go but up for us. I really hope this deck style becomes more popular so we can get more people in on tweaking and fine tuning, sharing results, etc. I miss that aspect quite a lot during my time with Twin. I'm really happy to have found a new home in this deck and I would love to see more and more people find that same spark I found here. I can't wait to see where it goes in the "Less Eldrazi" Meta.
I wholeheartedly agree. I see a few things in the meta going forward, almost all of which are positive:
As you noted, we can adapt very well. It's a pretty unknown Day 1, which means that while we will have to be receptive to changes, we can tweak the deck to attack at the right angles.
The influx of Blue decks created by the AV unban make Voice an absolute bombshell (as if I needed another reason to love the card). Geist also gets better, as he is a nightmare against control, especially if he comes down on 2.
The Thopter-Sword combo can be fought by Scooze, making us very good against these types of decks as well (possibly overlaps with the decks mentioned in point 2)
Both of these cards didn't even need the help to be excellent. The boost they're about to get is going to give our deck a giant shot in the arm. I think Bant CoCo/Knightfall becomes a very formidable deck in the new meta. We take the beatdown of Zoo and the disruption of Hatebears, and supercharge it with an explosive combo finish AND a robust land package. I'm very excited to attack the field at large with this deck come next week!
On a related note, I think the Blue deck renaissance will mean that I swap Rogue's Passage for a Horizon Canopy - a change I was already considering.
I don't know necessarily that you should drop Rogue's Passage, as it's a great card to have during a board stall to punch in some damage. With that said, Horizon Canopy is amazing and you absolutely should find some room for it if you can.
Also, one other point I want to make about Retreat, after I've thought about it; let's say that someday this deck does become Tier 1 (which I fully believe it's capable of). I'd bet it would suddenly be within the realm of possibility to be hit with a ban. The 8-9 mana dork variants that run 4 Knights and 4 Retreats, can fairly consistently win on turn 3. I think it's something like 1 out of every 7 games. That's a pretty high percentage for a deck breaking the turn 4 rule. Infect gets away with it because their creatures are easy to kill. In a lot of cases for us though, our combo is actually very difficult to stop if we time everything right (with Knight being able to grab a Sejiri Steppe for example). I think that is another reason, potentially, to train with the deck without fully relying on the combo side. Maybe I'm just too precautious though haha.
I don't know necessarily that you should drop Rogue's Passage, as it's a great card to have during a board stall to punch in some damage. With that said, Horizon Canopy is amazing and you absolutely should find some room for it if you can.
Also, one other point I want to make about Retreat, after I've thought about it; let's say that someday this deck does become Tier 1 (which I fully believe it's capable of). I'd bet it would suddenly be within the realm of possibility to be hit with a ban. The 8-9 mana dork variants that run 4 Knights and 4 Retreats, can fairly consistently win on turn 3. I think it's something like 1 out of every 7 games. That's a pretty high percentage for a deck breaking the turn 4 rule. Infect gets away with it because their creatures are easy to kill. In a lot of cases for us though, our combo is actually very difficult to stop if we time everything right (with Knight being able to grab a Sejiri Steppe for example). I think that is another reason, potentially, to train with the deck without fully relying on the combo side. Maybe I'm just too precautious though haha.
I do love having Rogue's Passage on a clogged board. I've won a fair amount of games swinging with unblockable Geist. I just don't know where else I would make room for Canopy. This deck only has so many slots for non-sac-able lands. 3 utility slots seems like the max.
Re: Banning Retreat:
I mean, anything's possible. It would seem kind of strange, as this type of combo is exactly the sort of thing that Twin was "keeping down". It would seem a little silly to see it banned after that whole situation. I do see your logic; I have won a plethora of games on T3 from the combo. A lot has to go right, though: Land a dork, land a Knight, land a Retreat, no Bolts/Paths/Terminates/Vapor Snags/Dismembers/enchantment removal in hand on the other side... It's good, but it's not infallible. Getting your dork Bolted ends the T3 dream right quick for 1 mana.
Granted, results are king. However, we see plenty of T3 wins from quick decks, as you mentioned. That's just variance. Sometimes you hit a god draw, regardless of the deck. Following the logic of "if [deck with fast wins some percentage of the time] starts winning, it might get banned", I think Knightfall is pretty far down the list. They would start with the deck everyone LOVES to hate - Grishoalbrand - long before us.
Just my two cents. This comes with the usual disclaimer: I don't know exactly how Wizards' R&D works. Something very strange could happen, and in some future reality, it could very well be the case that Knightfall is bannable.
I am currently wanting to add Negate somewhere in my Sideboard. Also, just for fun, I've been playing around with 1-2 mainboard Worships, which has been hilarious. I'm not sure if I'll keep them, but they have been really fun.
(These statistics show Bant Company having the highest win percentage among ALL decks in Modern. It's pretty old data, but the fact that Bant Company as a deck has been so under the radar, I think it still shows relevant information regarding this deck itself, especially since the deck has evolved more favorably in my opinion, and it top 8'd GP Bologna more recently.)
Thanks! List looks sweet. How have you liked Phantasmal Image?
I've been loving Phantasmal Image. I understand why Alessandro Lippi ran all 4. I think I may very well go up to 4 myself. It really shines in matches where your opponent is playing bigger creatures than you (These are usually green decks with very little to no removal). Few things in Modern feel more powerful than getting a copy of their Primeval Titan with Phantasmal Image, then sending theirs back to their hand with Reflector Mage after an End Step Collected Company.
And you like having the combo in the side as a surprise factor? Do you side Retreat in when you side out CoCo since adding Retreat would dilute the creature count unless spells were sided out? Also, any changes to your list now that Eldrazi is gone and Foundry combo is back?
And you like having the combo in the side as a surprise factor? Do you side Retreat in when you side out CoCo since adding Retreat would dilute the creature count unless spells were sided out? Also, any changes to your list now that Eldrazi is gone and Foundry combo is back?
I actually almost never side out anymore than 1 Collected Company. If you side out 3 Creatures (This will depend on the match-up, a lot of the time for me, I take out Pridemage, Ooze, and a Geist against most decks, or all 3 Phantasmal Images against creature removal heavy decks like Jund.), that still leaves you with 27 creatures, which is still perfectly relevant for Collected Company to be good.
But yes, I like having the combo in the side a lot. As Drag0nsBloodQ pointed out, the combo can get us out of some very bad situations. We can seemingly win through unwinnable games with it, so I think it's always worth having. I also think this deck, much like Affinity, is very good at winning Game 1's in an unknown field, making it very easy to win Game 2 with the combo against unprepared opponents.
Presently, my list is the same now as what you see here. When the Meta evolves, I'll adjust accordingly, probably adding a Kataki, War's Wage to the sideboard, as well as a second Ooze to the mainboard (since Ooze shuts down the Sword/Foundry combo).
I side the combo in against decks that can ignore our creature threats, like Tron, Scapeshift, Living End, etc. I usually don't bother siding it in against Control or GBx decks, since they tend to run a lot of removal. The combo is also very good against fringe decks where you wouldn't otherwise know what to effectively sideboard against.
The only decks that are kind of a toss up regarding the combo, are Aggro decks. On one hand, you could potentially combo out as early as turn 3, on the other, if you can't combo early, they can usually deal a lot of damage quickly enough to basically kill the combo (we can't usually risk grabbing lots of fetches and shocks, only to die to a Lightning Bolt or something). With that said, I don't think we need the combo against Aggro decks. After turn 3 or so, we start getting a large board presence, Reflector Mages slow them down, Knights get way bigger than anything they have, and they usually just seem to have a rough time catching up. The exception mostly being Affinity, but that's why we pack plenty of hate for them. Of all of the fast Aggro decks, so far Affinity is the only one I've actually lost to. Zoo and Burn variants feel good, especially after sideboarding.
As for siding it in as a surprise factor, that basically goes to the rest of the match ups that weren't named above. It mostly just depends on your observations from game 1.
I 've just nearly finished to assemble this deck after i saw it on GP Bologna. I felt in love so easy with his mechaninchs
I was thinking about to insert Mikokoro, Center of the Sea as 1x. I played it in AD nauseam and i was really surprised how powerful it could be(expecially against jund, junk). What do you think?
I don't think you should ever want to let your opponent draw a card, personally, but I say give it a shot! If you like the card, by all means, you absolutely should try it out.
Has anyone thought of trying out Traverse and Communes for higher consistency? I'm thinking of trying those and a small Angel package in Knightfall.
Those kinds of cards are for if you want to go more all in on the combo plan. I think the main problem with that plan, is much like All-In Twin, it tends to only consistently work against unprepared opponents. Once they've had a chance to sideboard appropriately, you may have a more difficult time winning without some serious protection. Should you choose to go that route, I'd also like suggesting some main boarded Spellskites and potentially even Dispels. I've shy'd away from the heavier combo side of the deck myself, but there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to find success in it, especially with the right support.
How crucial have the Tarmogoyfs been? Would your build still hold water with say, -3 Goyf, +2 Voice, +1 Ooze?
I think it absolutely would. Tarmogoyf doesn't get terribly big in this deck, usually a 3/4 or 4/5 (which is still great value). Goyf, in my opinion, is best against GBx decks, where it can block opposing Goyfs or Tasigur early on. It's very good against other decks that don't take well to quick threats. With that said, I don't think it is at all necessary. I will likely not stop using them myself, but this deck does not at all need them to be successful, as Alessandro Lippi proved with his list at GP Bologna.
I think this is especially true given the coming shift in meta with Ancestral Vision's and Sword of the Meek's unbanning. Voice of Resurgence will be great against decks looking to utilize AV, and Scavenging Ooze will be great against decks trying to use SotM.
I'm a bit puzzled by the list. Coco with only 20 creatures - including the 6 mana dorks? Seems like Chord (or even Traverse the Ulvenwald) would make much more sense in that list, but then he did get in the top 32 so who am I to judge?
It would be really cool if the pilot was a MTGS member and could explain his list/how the event unfolded for him.
Private Mod Note
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
This player placed 24th with a more spell-based version at the SCG event this weekend.
I can't say I agree with the "More Spells" version of the deck. It seems like it just makes Collected Company really bad. Only 20 Creatures, at that point you may as well not even run Collected Company. It's still very much in the vein of straight Knightfall however, so if then, I'm curious as to why he didn't commit more to it with cards like Chord or Spellskite.
Sideboard changes need fix, i am trying to fing a stony silence and another kataki, so i filled as i could. Maindeck i wanted to test mikokoro, center of the sea and a vendilion clique, thinking she could be great as a 3/1 flying body with hand control. Both test failed (but i will give them another shot, expecially on Clique). Mikokoro was never used and i think i missed some colored mana, so i will fix it adding another forest for sure(or temple garden). Clique never came instead
so R1: RESTORE BALANCE( AARGHH)
G1 i started with 3 noble hierarch and 1 land, i keep hard, i start to beat him with 3 hierarch(i drew a second land) and a kight, keeping my hand for a new start. He goes to 8, then restore balance. I restart, then he restore balance again and is GG.
G2: i sided in 3 Retreat to Coralhelm, started with perfect hand and won on t3 with the combo. He really didnt expect that .
G3: got clique in starting hand, started to beat him with voice and hierarch , but stalled at 2 lands without doube U, so i could not play clique and remove his anger of the gods from hand. He play restore balance twice and won . 1-2. Probably i had to mull the hand but was hoping it was not too bad vs that deck. Needed just a fetch or something like that. But it didn't come
R2: MELIRA COMPANY
G1: I started beat him, he went to 1, then he comboed off me after 3 Chord solving. i made a mistake here naming Collected with my meddling mage, i didnt have it in hand and i got a board advantage so i thouhgt collected was better naming. I drew collected and he drew 3 chords. Awesome
G2: sided in 3 Retreat to Coralhelm, saw it and started to aggro him with a geist, then he made a mistake: he redirect coralhem on a spellskite, misscounting damage and he could not fetch for a path to exile.
G3: really tricky game with reflector mage, phantasmal image and his fiend hunter. everything was bouncing and disappearing from the battlefield, but my board was better and i won attacking. Geist solved the game with double hierarch. 2-1
R3: ABZAN AGGRO
G1: i won due to a T2 geist , immune to his removal and he got not too much time to react to him, i bounced his possible blocker with reflector mages.
G2: i mulled to 6, keep with hierarch , forest , gavony, stalled with 2 lands and died with company , company, 2 reflector mage, 2 meddling mage in hand.
G3: I started with hierarch, geist, meddling mage(Decay), meddling mage(path to exile). He played rhino , i did a company with 2 phantasmal, copied rhino twice. Stalled board untill i get better and drew a gavony for the win.
R4: ID
TOP 8: MERFOLKS
R1: mulled to 6, and he destroyed me on t4. I stalled again with 2 lands.
R2: He keeped a risky hand with 1 lands and all 1/2 drops in hand. But he didn't drew and i was faster, I named aether with meddling for be sure, and i did right.
R3: he started keeeping. I keeped too. T1 aether vial, i T1 hierarch and passed. He T2 Silvergill and passes.I T2 retreat to coralhem and here the match started to shine. He played dismember on my hierarch and attacked, tapping AETHER for a lord. I reflected on my turn his lord and passed. He played again his lord, attaccking me. I t4 path his lord and pass. He then play Merrow Reejerey with aehter vial, and double phantasmal image, 1 on my reflector and 1 on Merrow Reejerey. I played eternal withness, keeping a fetch, played it, fetched, and tapped both the phantasmal, destroyng them. i was at 9, he played and passed and then i got the game with another path on Merrow Reejerey and a company revealing scavengin ooze and a Knight. He just tried to go ahead but my board was huge, got 3 cards in hand and he was at Topdeck.
It was too late and we decided to split in T4
I am really happy, it was first time with this deck and i am sure i could have played better in some cases. i will fix the manabase for sure, adding as i said before more green sources, maybe an horizon canopy or another shockland.
I hope this report could be constructive and you enjoy it, i am really courious and i really hope you will discuss it with me. Sorry for my bad English, i hope it was understandable
Mario
That's some great stuff there! It's awesome that you had fun with the deck. That's one of the best things about this deck that I've noticed; it's just a straight up fun deck. It's good that you had a positive experience your first time with it.
It might feel like it's just a "turn creatures sideways" kind of deck, but as I'm sure you discovered, it's actually really skill intensive. I'm sure you'll be very pleased with it the more you play it.
That's very true. I hear a lot of people talk about siding the combo out, but I don't think it's ever come up. If I think they have removal, I'll wait to drop Retreat until I know I can get the combo. Everything else can happen at instant speed, so even if they target Retreat, you can just combo over top of it. Reading that over, it sounds a bit naive, but the combo can get you out of so many unwinnable situations. I almost always feel bad thinking of siding it out, and keeping it in hasn't seemed to be a detriment thusfar.
I wholeheartedly agree. I see a few things in the meta going forward, almost all of which are positive:
On a related note, I think the Blue deck renaissance will mean that I swap Rogue's Passage for a Horizon Canopy - a change I was already considering.
Also, one other point I want to make about Retreat, after I've thought about it; let's say that someday this deck does become Tier 1 (which I fully believe it's capable of). I'd bet it would suddenly be within the realm of possibility to be hit with a ban. The 8-9 mana dork variants that run 4 Knights and 4 Retreats, can fairly consistently win on turn 3. I think it's something like 1 out of every 7 games. That's a pretty high percentage for a deck breaking the turn 4 rule. Infect gets away with it because their creatures are easy to kill. In a lot of cases for us though, our combo is actually very difficult to stop if we time everything right (with Knight being able to grab a Sejiri Steppe for example). I think that is another reason, potentially, to train with the deck without fully relying on the combo side. Maybe I'm just too precautious though haha.
I do love having Rogue's Passage on a clogged board. I've won a fair amount of games swinging with unblockable Geist. I just don't know where else I would make room for Canopy. This deck only has so many slots for non-sac-able lands. 3 utility slots seems like the max.
Re: Banning Retreat:
I mean, anything's possible. It would seem kind of strange, as this type of combo is exactly the sort of thing that Twin was "keeping down". It would seem a little silly to see it banned after that whole situation. I do see your logic; I have won a plethora of games on T3 from the combo. A lot has to go right, though: Land a dork, land a Knight, land a Retreat, no Bolts/Paths/Terminates/Vapor Snags/Dismembers/enchantment removal in hand on the other side... It's good, but it's not infallible. Getting your dork Bolted ends the T3 dream right quick for 1 mana.
Granted, results are king. However, we see plenty of T3 wins from quick decks, as you mentioned. That's just variance. Sometimes you hit a god draw, regardless of the deck. Following the logic of "if [deck with fast wins some percentage of the time] starts winning, it might get banned", I think Knightfall is pretty far down the list. They would start with the deck everyone LOVES to hate - Grishoalbrand - long before us.
Just my two cents. This comes with the usual disclaimer: I don't know exactly how Wizards' R&D works. Something very strange could happen, and in some future reality, it could very well be the case that Knightfall is bannable.
Thanks! List looks sweet. How have you liked Phantasmal Image?
I actually almost never side out anymore than 1 Collected Company. If you side out 3 Creatures (This will depend on the match-up, a lot of the time for me, I take out Pridemage, Ooze, and a Geist against most decks, or all 3 Phantasmal Images against creature removal heavy decks like Jund.), that still leaves you with 27 creatures, which is still perfectly relevant for Collected Company to be good.
But yes, I like having the combo in the side a lot. As Drag0nsBloodQ pointed out, the combo can get us out of some very bad situations. We can seemingly win through unwinnable games with it, so I think it's always worth having. I also think this deck, much like Affinity, is very good at winning Game 1's in an unknown field, making it very easy to win Game 2 with the combo against unprepared opponents.
Presently, my list is the same now as what you see here. When the Meta evolves, I'll adjust accordingly, probably adding a Kataki, War's Wage to the sideboard, as well as a second Ooze to the mainboard (since Ooze shuts down the Sword/Foundry combo).
The only decks that are kind of a toss up regarding the combo, are Aggro decks. On one hand, you could potentially combo out as early as turn 3, on the other, if you can't combo early, they can usually deal a lot of damage quickly enough to basically kill the combo (we can't usually risk grabbing lots of fetches and shocks, only to die to a Lightning Bolt or something). With that said, I don't think we need the combo against Aggro decks. After turn 3 or so, we start getting a large board presence, Reflector Mages slow them down, Knights get way bigger than anything they have, and they usually just seem to have a rough time catching up. The exception mostly being Affinity, but that's why we pack plenty of hate for them. Of all of the fast Aggro decks, so far Affinity is the only one I've actually lost to. Zoo and Burn variants feel good, especially after sideboarding.
As for siding it in as a surprise factor, that basically goes to the rest of the match ups that weren't named above. It mostly just depends on your observations from game 1.
I don't think you should ever want to let your opponent draw a card, personally, but I say give it a shot! If you like the card, by all means, you absolutely should try it out.
Those kinds of cards are for if you want to go more all in on the combo plan. I think the main problem with that plan, is much like All-In Twin, it tends to only consistently work against unprepared opponents. Once they've had a chance to sideboard appropriately, you may have a more difficult time winning without some serious protection. Should you choose to go that route, I'd also like suggesting some main boarded Spellskites and potentially even Dispels. I've shy'd away from the heavier combo side of the deck myself, but there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to find success in it, especially with the right support.
How crucial have the Tarmogoyfs been? Would your build still hold water with say, -3 Goyf, +2 Voice, +1 Ooze?
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I think it absolutely would. Tarmogoyf doesn't get terribly big in this deck, usually a 3/4 or 4/5 (which is still great value). Goyf, in my opinion, is best against GBx decks, where it can block opposing Goyfs or Tasigur early on. It's very good against other decks that don't take well to quick threats. With that said, I don't think it is at all necessary. I will likely not stop using them myself, but this deck does not at all need them to be successful, as Alessandro Lippi proved with his list at GP Bologna.
I think this is especially true given the coming shift in meta with Ancestral Vision's and Sword of the Meek's unbanning. Voice of Resurgence will be great against decks looking to utilize AV, and Scavenging Ooze will be great against decks trying to use SotM.
It would be really cool if the pilot was a MTGS member and could explain his list/how the event unfolded for him.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I can't say I agree with the "More Spells" version of the deck. It seems like it just makes Collected Company really bad. Only 20 Creatures, at that point you may as well not even run Collected Company. It's still very much in the vein of straight Knightfall however, so if then, I'm curious as to why he didn't commit more to it with cards like Chord or Spellskite.
That's some great stuff there! It's awesome that you had fun with the deck. That's one of the best things about this deck that I've noticed; it's just a straight up fun deck. It's good that you had a positive experience your first time with it.
It might feel like it's just a "turn creatures sideways" kind of deck, but as I'm sure you discovered, it's actually really skill intensive. I'm sure you'll be very pleased with it the more you play it.