I noticed there was a Modern for Staples tournament 75 mi. away in Los Angeles, so I decided to go. I wanted to try Knightfall since Titanshift and a few other decks would be pretty easy to win with and Knightfall is still somewhat tough for me. There ended up being 15 players only.
Round 1 vs. Titanshift. He plays a Stomping Ground untapped and I'm thinking, uh oh Burn. Nope, Search for Tomorrow. Farseek and double Sakura-Tribe Elder, all on the play. Turn 4 Prime Time and Mountain for 3 Valakut triggers. I'm at 7 life. I EoT Collected Company and don't find anything that would save me. In the next game, it is similar except he does Wooded Foothills, then Lightning Bolt on my turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary. Unfortunately I only had 1 fetch, so it died. Then he did Farseek and double Tribe Elder again. Scapeshift came the following turn and I had no Negate, Unified Will, or Spell Queller. Precarious start to a 4 round tournament. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. 4 Color Shadow. In the first game, he made me discard a few times and I peeled land after land. Finally, I got Collected Company, but he had Stubborn Denial and he survived at 3 life (I had Noble Hierarch and Selfless Spirit swinging). Double Goyf and double Death's Shadow gets me. In the next game, it is nearly the same, but I draw Tireless Tracker while I'm getting flooded. I do 4 clues this game and he stalls, trying to find something after he faced multiple Reflector Mage this game. In the final game, I PUNTED pretty terribly. He is searching for gas and a Goyf is small. He is swinging and I draw some gas. I have Spell Queller for his Izzet Staticaster and I then lay down a Selfless Spirit. He has a Death's Shadow and a Goyf. I have a Voice Elemental token, Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, Selfless Spirit, and Spell Queller. I attack him to 2 unfortunately because I could have found Kessig Wolf Run for lethal with Selfless Spirit as backup while he had only Stomping Ground untapped. Huge mistake. We go to his turn and he seems about ready to scoop for a split second, but then attacks. I block the Goyf with Noble Hierarch and the Death's Shadow with the Voice token instead of with the Knight as well. He does Temur Battle Rage and I forget that it is an 11/11, then also I didn't realize that double strike will only deal damage to an indestructible creature in the first strike phase, but not again in the regular combat step. I am 15 life with an 11/11 double strike, trample creature attacking. I forgot 2 things and didn't realize the rules of Magic. He shows his hand of another Temur Battle Rage and double Thoughtseize. 1-2.
Round 3 vs. Big Zoo. This guy is very well known. This is his only deck that he plays and he does surprisingly well with it. He has caused a lot of problems in the past when I played Grishoalbrand. He literally was all of my losses during a 3 month streak at TNM at a store in Orange, outside of 1 other time. He ends up drawing way less gas than me and folds. I combo him in the first game when I top deck Retreat to Coralhelm after Collected Company into double Knight of the Reliquary. The next game just has too much gas for me. One of those games. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. GR Tron. Tron with Grove of the Burnwillows. Someone is ready for the meta that I never see at my FNM. In the first game, he doesn't do turn 3 Tron. Instead he plays Firespout to kill a Scooze and a Tireless Tracker. I don't have much gas and he does Ugin the next turn, then Wurmcoil Engine and Karn Liberated. In the next game, I play turn 2 Stony Silence. I know; lucksack. I was missing a Green source, but found it on turn 3. Luckier Sack. He plays 3 Spheres on turn 3 after turn 1 Map and literally plays nothing this game. I keep Spell Queller up when I have pressure for the Nature's Claim, which doesn't come. In the next game, I mull a 0 land hand. I keep on 2 Forest, Noble Hierarch, Stony Silence, Negate, and Surgical Extraction. Should this be a keep? I end up having my Stony Silence immediately Nature's Claimed and then the Tron beating commenced. Karn, Ugin, and a midgame Wurmcoil Engine. Each turn, I draw Noble Hierarch after Noble Hierarch and Botanical Sanctum so I can't cast Collected Company ever. It most likely doesn't matter anyway since I sided 2 out and put in 7 non creature spells from the SB. I feel like my best chance to win is with the Combo, but that's terribly unlikely to happen, especially if I mulligan to try to get it. 1-2.
I finish 1-3 and am now 32-21 with the deck. It's pretty rough since my Modern win percentage is nearly 66% as of 2 weeks ago (kavu.ru for those wondering). I know I've made mistakes, but I think I'm just going to keep trying with this deck for a while.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Would it be inappropriate to ask you folks for tips on beating you? I play Bant Eldrazi, and I've been struggling against Bant Knightfall.
I asked in the Bant Eldrazi discussion, but haven't received a response in a couple of days.
It would be fine.
I haven't played against Bant Eldrazi with Knightfall yet, so I really don't know. I would say just try to keep Knight off the table. Play around Spell Queller if you can, and hope to Smash some Realities. I would put in some SB cards to counter Collected Company. Maybe Engineered Explosives for a 2 drop or mana dorks, although you have to be weary of your own mana dorks of course. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Knightfall is the beatdown, so usually you are the "Control" deck. Of course this can change, but it feels to be so for the most part. Good luck!
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Gotta get aggressive as best as your draws allow you too. You’re not beating this style of a Company deck late game without a displacer. In the past I found that if I just stop displacer from hitting the board or I path it, I’ll eventually just roll Bant Eldrazi decks over. If, however, I let them resolve it, so long as they have good starts like T2/T3 Thought-Knot Seer followed up by a Smasher, then it gets really difficult to win. Also Queller destroys everything other than smasher and drowner, which aren’t really as important to us in the long run so be careful!!!
Here's the one I've used for a while now. I would switch some cards in the SB and perhaps main for your perceived metagame.
"My list is this, except the 8th mana dork for the 3rd Scavenging Ooze. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/687187#paper
I have recently added 1-2 Rhox War Monk and 1-2 Eidolon of Rhetoric to my maybe list for Storm and Burn, but I just haven't run into them much. "
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm actually not sure. I believe that the Vizier Combo is probably stronger right now. I personally haven't tried it because I enjoy the Retreat version too much, although my losses are starting to catch up to me (34-21 now after being 24-9 previously).
If you google Kelvin Chew Vizier Knightfall or Bant Company, something should come up. There's also Humans with Knight of the Reliquary and the Retreat Combo.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Guys, what's the correct amount of lands/mana dorks? So far I have been successful with 22 Lands, 4 Hierarchs, 4 Birds. But lately I have playtested a good amount against Jund Midrange, Jeskai Control and Grixis DS aka matchups in which your dorks won't survive. So I struggled to get to 4 mana easily. I thought about adding one more land (I do actually see a lot of current lists playing 23 lands), but I feel 27 creatures is a pretty low number for a company deck. Also, in case you play 23 lands, do you still play 8 dorks or cut 1 bird? Opinions?
I find this question a lot, and honestly, it's very relevant. I run 4 Birds, 4 Hierarchs, and 22 Lands, similar to you. Dorks aren't great to hit off of Company, so cutting them really won't impact them much. Are you ever excited to hit a Birds off of one? Not much different than whiffing. With lots of non-white Midrange, one land for a dork makes sense. But keep in mind that our deck's power is at the 3-drop slot. If you're playing 4 Reflector, 4 Queller, 4 Knight, I might advise against it because you'll struggle to land your threats in a timely fashion.
I'm pretty sure this is the Chew Brew, and I've found it to be pretty solid. If you're looking for suggestions on it, I might try out a Selfless Spirit or two in place of a Vizier or Duskwatch. Maybe drop a Staticaster side for a Chord? Other than that, the list is fine. Though I'm not sure if I like Vizier build more.
Any suggestions to beat Eldrazi and taxes running the traditional Knightfall list?
We are a pretty notoriously terrible matchup for them. We outsize them, we have better card advantage with coco, and it's hard to lock our mana because Thalia, guardian of thraben doesn't do much and we have lots of mana dorks. In other words, we tend to have a better late game, and they struggle at being the aggro deck. That said, this isn't a for sure matchup. However, if you keep Eldrazi Displaced off the board, it doesn't take too much to stabilize, and then win.
I play a very similar list. But i have a 3 Duskwatch Recruiter and 3 Vizier of Remedies split instead of the 2/4 split as i dont want to draw multiple Vizier of Remedies. He is the worst card in the deck outside of the combo.
Also i use spell queller instead of Reflector Mage. People told me that Reflector Mage is a better fit, because you want to coco on our turn to hit the combo, but thats only true if you already have a Devoted Druid thats not summoning sick and an opponent without removal.
What do you think about the cardchoices?
While Queller is an awesome magic card, and is the biggest argument for regular Knightfall, I just really don't like it as much in the Vizier version because it's a reactive card in a proactive deck. You never really want to just "pass the turn" in this deck, because of your combo pieces. You always want to be building pressure by deploying more threats. Queller doesn't become relevant in that case until the endgame. Which, because of the combos, you should have won by them.
That's just my thoughts on Queller in this version. I honestly prefer Reflector to Queller because Reflector is a proactive card. He's getting you ahead or buying you time when you deploy him. Having a creature to target is a very frequent event, and it saves you from turn two Baral and the like. With Queller, you have to hold up the mana, stifling your own development. In a nutshell, Queller just clashes with the deck's plan. But if it works for you, I'd definitely like to hear that. The proactive argument makes me skeptical about including Quellers in my Vizier Knightfall build, but I'd like to hear how that works for you.
Jace’s ability to rebuy spells is useful sometimes but it’s not worth the slot. It’s sometimes difficult to flip even with fetchlands and the Match-ups where casting CoCo is awesome is also the match-ups where it’ll die before it flips. It’s not as valuable as utility creatures, the second or third Tireless Tracker, or another disruptive 3 drop creature.
Dusk//Dawn is strong against big creatures for sure and Dawn is just overkill against fair decks. It is however slow but it’s such a powerful restart button that I could see a single copy. Settle the Wreckage is good against those decks you’ve mentioned but it seems to narrow and conditional ESPECIALLY as a 1-of. It’s not nearly as good as Dusk//Dawn because you can cast it as soon as you have the mana necessary. You get into a lot of creature stalls and they may not even attack; they also have disruption to prevent you from casting Settle the Wreckage at a critical juncture. Yes these things apply to Dusk//Dawn as well, but you can just cast it as soon as it’s available as opposed to Settle the Wreckage where they have to attack, which, unless you’re behind, they may not considering we play to the board and stalls occur quite often.
It’s less mana intensive as opposed to EE and it takes out any non-land permanent. It’s that nice 1-of that just removes something(s). Kinda like a 1-of Council’s Judgment in some ways.
I can see some potential applications, but I would still be hard-pressed to give it a sideboard slot. As of right now, my sideboard is going to look something like this:
3x Unified Will
2x Geist of saint traft
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Shaper Sanctuary
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Stony Silence
1x Kataki
1x Reclamation Sage
Stony silence is better than kataki, but since he can be hit off of CoCo, I'd like to try him out.
Geist is a personal favorite, but 2 might be a stretch. Still, I expect a lot of control at my LGS.
As of right now, Voice of Resurgence and Reflector Mage are still in the main deck. If I decide to remove either of them, they will certainly find a place in the board.
Round 1 vs. Titanshift. He plays a Stomping Ground untapped and I'm thinking, uh oh Burn. Nope, Search for Tomorrow. Farseek and double Sakura-Tribe Elder, all on the play. Turn 4 Prime Time and Mountain for 3 Valakut triggers. I'm at 7 life. I EoT Collected Company and don't find anything that would save me. In the next game, it is similar except he does Wooded Foothills, then Lightning Bolt on my turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary. Unfortunately I only had 1 fetch, so it died. Then he did Farseek and double Tribe Elder again. Scapeshift came the following turn and I had no Negate, Unified Will, or Spell Queller. Precarious start to a 4 round tournament. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. 4 Color Shadow. In the first game, he made me discard a few times and I peeled land after land. Finally, I got Collected Company, but he had Stubborn Denial and he survived at 3 life (I had Noble Hierarch and Selfless Spirit swinging). Double Goyf and double Death's Shadow gets me. In the next game, it is nearly the same, but I draw Tireless Tracker while I'm getting flooded. I do 4 clues this game and he stalls, trying to find something after he faced multiple Reflector Mage this game. In the final game, I PUNTED pretty terribly. He is searching for gas and a Goyf is small. He is swinging and I draw some gas. I have Spell Queller for his Izzet Staticaster and I then lay down a Selfless Spirit. He has a Death's Shadow and a Goyf. I have a Voice Elemental token, Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, Selfless Spirit, and Spell Queller. I attack him to 2 unfortunately because I could have found Kessig Wolf Run for lethal with Selfless Spirit as backup while he had only Stomping Ground untapped. Huge mistake. We go to his turn and he seems about ready to scoop for a split second, but then attacks. I block the Goyf with Noble Hierarch and the Death's Shadow with the Voice token instead of with the Knight as well. He does Temur Battle Rage and I forget that it is an 11/11, then also I didn't realize that double strike will only deal damage to an indestructible creature in the first strike phase, but not again in the regular combat step. I am 15 life with an 11/11 double strike, trample creature attacking. I forgot 2 things and didn't realize the rules of Magic. He shows his hand of another Temur Battle Rage and double Thoughtseize. 1-2.
Round 3 vs. Big Zoo. This guy is very well known. This is his only deck that he plays and he does surprisingly well with it. He has caused a lot of problems in the past when I played Grishoalbrand. He literally was all of my losses during a 3 month streak at TNM at a store in Orange, outside of 1 other time. He ends up drawing way less gas than me and folds. I combo him in the first game when I top deck Retreat to Coralhelm after Collected Company into double Knight of the Reliquary. The next game just has too much gas for me. One of those games. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. GR Tron. Tron with Grove of the Burnwillows. Someone is ready for the meta that I never see at my FNM. In the first game, he doesn't do turn 3 Tron. Instead he plays Firespout to kill a Scooze and a Tireless Tracker. I don't have much gas and he does Ugin the next turn, then Wurmcoil Engine and Karn Liberated. In the next game, I play turn 2 Stony Silence. I know; lucksack. I was missing a Green source, but found it on turn 3. Luckier Sack. He plays 3 Spheres on turn 3 after turn 1 Map and literally plays nothing this game. I keep Spell Queller up when I have pressure for the Nature's Claim, which doesn't come. In the next game, I mull a 0 land hand. I keep on 2 Forest, Noble Hierarch, Stony Silence, Negate, and Surgical Extraction. Should this be a keep? I end up having my Stony Silence immediately Nature's Claimed and then the Tron beating commenced. Karn, Ugin, and a midgame Wurmcoil Engine. Each turn, I draw Noble Hierarch after Noble Hierarch and Botanical Sanctum so I can't cast Collected Company ever. It most likely doesn't matter anyway since I sided 2 out and put in 7 non creature spells from the SB. I feel like my best chance to win is with the Combo, but that's terribly unlikely to happen, especially if I mulligan to try to get it. 1-2.
I finish 1-3 and am now 32-21 with the deck. It's pretty rough since my Modern win percentage is nearly 66% as of 2 weeks ago (kavu.ru for those wondering). I know I've made mistakes, but I think I'm just going to keep trying with this deck for a while.
My list is this, except the 8th mana dork for the 3rd Scavenging Ooze.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/687187#paper
I have recently added 1-2 Rhox War Monk and 1-2 Eidolon of Rhetoric to my maybe list for Storm and Burn, but I just haven't run into them much.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I asked in the Bant Eldrazi discussion, but haven't received a response in a couple of days.
It would be fine.
I haven't played against Bant Eldrazi with Knightfall yet, so I really don't know. I would say just try to keep Knight off the table. Play around Spell Queller if you can, and hope to Smash some Realities. I would put in some SB cards to counter Collected Company. Maybe Engineered Explosives for a 2 drop or mana dorks, although you have to be weary of your own mana dorks of course. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Knightfall is the beatdown, so usually you are the "Control" deck. Of course this can change, but it feels to be so for the most part. Good luck!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Knightfall with Retreat to Coralhelm or with the Vizier of Remedies/Devoted Druid combo?
Here's the one I've used for a while now. I would switch some cards in the SB and perhaps main for your perceived metagame.
"My list is this, except the 8th mana dork for the 3rd Scavenging Ooze.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/687187#paper
I have recently added 1-2 Rhox War Monk and 1-2 Eidolon of Rhetoric to my maybe list for Storm and Burn, but I just haven't run into them much. "
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWR Control
BR Hollow One
If you google Kelvin Chew Vizier Knightfall or Bant Company, something should come up. There's also Humans with Knight of the Reliquary and the Retreat Combo.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWR Control
BR Hollow One
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Reflector Mage
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
4x Collected Company
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Izzet Staticaster
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3x Path to Exile
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Unified Will
Thanks!
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I find this question a lot, and honestly, it's very relevant. I run 4 Birds, 4 Hierarchs, and 22 Lands, similar to you. Dorks aren't great to hit off of Company, so cutting them really won't impact them much. Are you ever excited to hit a Birds off of one? Not much different than whiffing. With lots of non-white Midrange, one land for a dork makes sense. But keep in mind that our deck's power is at the 3-drop slot. If you're playing 4 Reflector, 4 Queller, 4 Knight, I might advise against it because you'll struggle to land your threats in a timely fashion.
My Trades
I'm pretty sure this is the Chew Brew, and I've found it to be pretty solid. If you're looking for suggestions on it, I might try out a Selfless Spirit or two in place of a Vizier or Duskwatch. Maybe drop a Staticaster side for a Chord? Other than that, the list is fine. Though I'm not sure if I like Vizier build more.
My Trades
That's just my thoughts on Queller in this version. I honestly prefer Reflector to Queller because Reflector is a proactive card. He's getting you ahead or buying you time when you deploy him. Having a creature to target is a very frequent event, and it saves you from turn two Baral and the like. With Queller, you have to hold up the mana, stifling your own development. In a nutshell, Queller just clashes with the deck's plan. But if it works for you, I'd definitely like to hear that. The proactive argument makes me skeptical about including Quellers in my Vizier Knightfall build, but I'd like to hear how that works for you.
My Trades
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Dusk//Dawn is strong against big creatures for sure and Dawn is just overkill against fair decks. It is however slow but it’s such a powerful restart button that I could see a single copy. Settle the Wreckage is good against those decks you’ve mentioned but it seems to narrow and conditional ESPECIALLY as a 1-of. It’s not nearly as good as Dusk//Dawn because you can cast it as soon as you have the mana necessary. You get into a lot of creature stalls and they may not even attack; they also have disruption to prevent you from casting Settle the Wreckage at a critical juncture. Yes these things apply to Dusk//Dawn as well, but you can just cast it as soon as it’s available as opposed to Settle the Wreckage where they have to attack, which, unless you’re behind, they may not considering we play to the board and stalls occur quite often.
3x Unified Will
2x Geist of saint traft
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Shaper Sanctuary
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Stony Silence
1x Kataki
1x Reclamation Sage
Stony silence is better than kataki, but since he can be hit off of CoCo, I'd like to try him out.
Geist is a personal favorite, but 2 might be a stretch. Still, I expect a lot of control at my LGS.
As of right now, Voice of Resurgence and Reflector Mage are still in the main deck. If I decide to remove either of them, they will certainly find a place in the board.
Any suggestions are welcome.