I can't help but think that disdainful stroke would be better than Flashfreeze. Still good against CoCo/Chord decks, Tron decks, Etron, control strategies, Ad Naus, and still hits both scapeshift and Titan. Worse against burn and maybe skred red, but I think the pros outweighs the cons pretty heavily. I run 2x Disdainful stroke in Bant coco, and 2x-3x disdainful stroke in bant eldrazi and it's been great.
I can't help but think that disdainful stroke would be better than Flashfreeze. Still good against CoCo/Chord decks, Tron decks, Etron, control strategies, Ad Naus, and still hits both scapeshift and Titan. Worse against burn and maybe skred red, but I think the pros outweighs the cons pretty heavily. I run 2x Disdainful stroke in Bant coco, and 2x-3x disdainful stroke in bant eldrazi and it's been great.
Stroke doesn't counter Anger of the Gods for example. It's not terrible but Unified Will is so much better because we generally end up having more creatures in the matchups where we bring it in.
First, the inclusion of multiple Spellskite and the 1-of Wild Defiance as a back-up combo seems like a better idea here than in infect since most lists run Kessig Wolf Run or Sejiri Steppe to give it some form of evasion. However, I am having second thoughts on this inclusion, in particular because I'm not sure if it will help troublesome match-ups.
Second, any advice on where to start for a sideboard (i.e. which match-ups should we focus on first)?
@RPD I don't think burn is a very good matchup without the courser but I think courser is very bad currently in the knightfall deck. I did however run the exact 75 back at a local PPTQ and won the whole thing. Rounds were as follows
Round 1- GW Tron W 2-1
Round 2- Grixis Death's Shadow W 2-0
Round 3- Burn W 2-1 *Camera*
Round 4- Eldrazi Tron W 2-0 *Camera*
Round 5 and 6- Draw
Quarters- Lantern Control W 2-0
Semis- Living End W 2-1 *Camera*
Finals- Titanshift W 2-1 *Camera*
All of the matchs are on Twitch if you look up WNY_Gaming. There is also a winner interview afterwards talking about how I feel about the deck. Reflector Mage is an insane card at the moment. I haven't had the chance to try out any new sideboard cards but I think the staticasters are fine at 3. Thank you if you watch any of the matches and thanks @RPD for the decklist. Hoping to run Knightfall back for the RPTQ in November!
have to ask for help with this one: I run what I would guess is a fairly standard knightfall list, and a guy at my lgs runs a wierd ramp deck(mainly green, splashes U,W,B for 1 or 2 cards per color/sideboard). For ex. tonight he had a turn3 garruk primal hunter, turn 4 or 5 elesh norn. He gets stuff like this fairly consistently. He also just plays giant guys including a hornet queen, terastodon, hoof. I know this isnt a lot of info and he's playing some jank. But its almost a guaranteed loss vs him and looking for insight.
Hi. I'm brazilian. The deck that won the GP São Paulo have 3 Thalia, Guardiã de Thraben, not 3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Wizards just post wrong
Hah that makes much more sense. The GP winning list looks weird at first but when thinking more about it, it's just super prepared to fight certain matchups. I'll try to play it a bit and then give some insight here because there is something to learn there for sure ^^
@PastorCF congrats on the PPTQ finish! I'll watch the vods when I have time. Could you explain how you feel about the lantern matchup? I have played it for a bit but I'm uncertain of what's our plan
@RPD against lantern, they don't pressure you at all very early. You have plenty of time to use the free information as well as to cast collected company at good times. Also, you have 6 creatures with exalted and kessig wolf run which helps when attacking with birds or nobles against bridge. Scavenging ooze is also very important to prevent them from using codex shredder, crucible of worlds and academy ruins from taking over the game. Overall, taking the game slow is the way to go and ensnaring bridge is not very good against you as it is against other decks. I might say it's probably a good matchup for you. Plus they only have 2-3 abrupt decays and 3-4 collective brutality to interact with nobles and birds
@RPD @PastorCF Great suggestion for using ooze to stop land recursion! I played against a deck that used crucible of worlds and ghost quarters as well, so one strategy is if you use Elspeth, you ult her to protect your Kessig (and other land) from being destroyed. The ultimate is easy to get to in long lantern games.
Also, divbalari suggested the use of dusk/dawn to bring back exalted creatures, which is brilliant.
Hey all I recently picked up Knight fall with the vizer druid combo, is this the right forum to ask for sb questions? I asked on the collected company board and they said it wasn't the right place. This is the list I am currently running with:
I just went to my first modern SCG Open in Richmond with my trusty Knightfall and, well, I made 27th. I haven’t really been paying much attention to the competitive meta, and I think that hurt me a bit. That said, I think I did well enough. My list can be found here.
Round 1: Affinity (2-1)
This was my only game loss to affinity across four matches. I lost to double Signal Pest with Memnite and Ornithopter. I almost stabilized, but I didn't have enough health. Game two was close, but he top decked a Blinkmoth Nexus instead of three damage. Game three was over soon after it started.
Round 2: Jeskai Control (0-2)
I didn’t establish much of a clock before Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
Round 3: R/G Tron (2-1)
She played a Pyroclasm on turn two for my turn one birds game one. Thankfully, I had a two drop and, even though she established tron, didn’t really follow it up with much. Game two she Firespout on my bird into 3/3 knight. Game 3, I had all the fun of Eldritch Evolution a Reclamation Sage into a Manglehorn to blow up an Oblivion Stone. (You can't do that with a stony silence.) I also greatly enjoyed watching my opponent play a tapped star.
Round 4: U/W Control (1-2)
Hey look, Elspeth, Sun's Champion again... (at least this time I Kessig Wolf Run on a Kitchen Finks to kill it). I feel like the U/W/X control matchup isn't that bad, but these two rounds did not go well.
Round 5: G/W Valuetown (1-2)
See round 15. That said, after this matchup, I almost wanted to drop, but I kept going.
Round 6: Affinity (2-0)
Game one, I turn two Spell Queller, turn three Spell Queller, turn four Collected Company, turn five Collected Company. Also, I think I have a little too much hate in the sideboard for this matchup. It's already pretty good pre-board.
Round 7: R/B Burn (2-0)
Game one, I was had a fast hand. Game two, well, after company hit double Kitchen Finks, my opponent conceded.
Round 9: Grishoalbrand (2-1)
Honestly, my opponent should have won this match. I kept a hand that relied vastly too much on a Noble Hierarch and my opponent Collective Brutality it and a Unified Will away. I didn't present much of a clock either. The thing is, Grishoalbrand can struggle with consistency and, well, that's what happened.
Round 11: Affinity (2-0) Spell Queller is a good magic card.
Round 12: Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
He cast All is Dust game one and I nearly recovered. Had I drawn a Path to Exile or a Reflector Mage over a few turns, the game would have ended (despite a few misplays on my part). So, I had to make up for it in games two and three.
Round 14: Jeskai Queller (2-1)
The use of Spell Queller typically hinders their ability to run wraths. To make up for this, they run bolts and paths. This highly favors knightfall as spot removal is, in a way, pretty bad against the deck.
Round 15: Todd Stevens with G/W Valuetown (0-2) (Agreed upon draw to guarantee top 32 as neither of us could be in the top 16)
After playing the matchup twice (once against Mr. Todd Stevens), I'm beginning to think that it and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle are the worst matchups for Knightfall. Both G/W Valuetown and Knightfall are very grindy and value based, but Knightfall trades a little long term value for immediate value. For example, most of Spell Queller's value is the fact that it has flash, flying and exiles a spell. Compare that to Ramunap Excavator which almost draws an extra card every turn. Needless to say, Knightfall is the aggro deck in the matchup and it has very little hope of aggroing well given that our opponent is on a similar plan, but with a better late-game strategy.
Final takeaways: I really like Manglehorn over Stony Silence. I never drew Nissa, Steward of Elements, but she seems to deserve her spot. I really like 5 counter spells in the side. Lastly, I never got the retreat combo. In all honesty though, I want to replace the two retreats with Trackers in such an open meta.
I do...Do you think you would bring the same list (maybe with tweaks) to another tournament this weekend, or consider something like vizier knightfall instead? I'm trying to decide if I want the unfairness of having the druid combo in the deck or having the flexibility of regular knightfall with the power of queller. Tough call for me. I don't get out much to play with 2 kids now, so i always put pressure on myself to make the right decisions before I go anywhere to play LOL!
I'm also curious about that Jonny. I took Valuetown to an event and got crushed by a bunch of random decks like KCI, Mill, and then scapeshift and it felt terrible even after I easily handled some control lists, but the deck still puts up results. I've seen a lot of lists do well with 4 unified will in the board!
I personally don't like Valuetown as it doesn't answer combo decks. How does it hope to beat Storm, Valakut, etc? However, if you can gauge that your meta doesn't have too much combo, Valuetown can be great against all fair decks. In an open field, Knightfall with Spell Queller is more versatile, and Vizier versions outcombo the opponent's combo.
Personally, if I was going to play in another tournament, I'd tweak the deck a little and take it. That said, I'm a value grind player and so I can't see myself playing vizir Knightfall to begin with.
In terms of G/W value town, Todd Stevens has started running Aven Mindcensor in the main. I bring this up as a way of saying that even he recognizes that the deck's primary way of beating combo is to Ghost Quarter them out (IE, he hopes for mostly fair matches).
Obviously, I'm on more of an aggro approach than usual, with the goal of sticking a Knight or Geist turn 2, and protecting it from there. In terms of the sideboard, I think Spell Queller is only really good against combo decks that don't pack removal like Ad Naus and Vizier Combo. Disdainful Stroke on the other hand is the truth. It beats everything of importance in E Tron and Titanshift and unconditionally handles everything that Queller can't.
Here is how my MUs went:
L UW Control
W Jeskai Control
W UW Control
L Burn
W Sultai Delirium
L Living End
L Grixis DS
W Grixis DS
W Unknown since OP Didn't Show
Of the above, only Burn and Living End felt really bad. Going forward, I'm cutting the Scoozes from the 75 because it is just too slow. Bog is really the only card that does the job of eating graveyards like I want it to, and I think I might just have 2 SB and leave it at that. I also want more help for the Burn MU.
Crazy idea here (almost akin to Bloom Titan in the sense that I'm suggesting an older card that may push this archetype further), but why not go arbitrarily large with a Wheel of Sun and Moon effect?
I'm imagining the basic sequence would look like the following:
0) Have Knight ready to T as well as Retreat, Wheel, and a Forest/Plains.
1) Sacrifice a Forest/Plains to Knight.
2) Replacement effect of Wheel puts it back in the library before you search; grab it or another Forest/Plains.
3) Retreat triggers; untap Knight.
4) Float a mana from the new Forest/Plains.
5) Repeat steps 1 to 4 for an arbitrarily large amount of mana.
Also would be additional technical plays like sacrificing extra Forest/Plains for Horizon Canopy, then using fetchlands and Retreat's Scry 1 mode to find an answer to whatever card or combination thereof that is preventing you from just swinging with a massive Knight. And, by not constantly having to grab shocks and fetches, the Burn matchup should be a lot better.
Of course, my experience with this particular archetype is admittedly limited, so ... I await your thoughts.
Crazy idea here (almost akin to Bloom Titan in the sense that I'm suggesting an older card that may push this archetype further), but why not go arbitrarily large with a Wheel of Sun and Moon effect?
I'm imagining the basic sequence would look like the following:
0) Have Knight ready to T as well as Retreat, Wheel, and a Forest/Plains.
1) Sacrifice a Forest/Plains to Knight.
2) Replacement effect of Wheel puts it back in the library before you search; grab it or another Forest/Plains.
3) Retreat triggers; untap Knight.
4) Float a mana from the new Forest/Plains.
5) Repeat steps 1 to 4 for an arbitrarily large amount of mana.
Also would be additional technical plays like sacrificing extra Forest/Plains for Horizon Canopy, then using fetchlands and Retreat's Scry 1 mode to find an answer to whatever card or combination thereof that is preventing you from just swinging with a massive Knight. And, by not constantly having to grab shocks and fetches, the Burn matchup should be a lot better.
Of course, my experience with this particular archetype is admittedly limited, so ... I await your thoughts.
This is extremely win-more, given that you already win 99% of the time with Knight + Retreat. This needs an extra piece and the benefit is extremely situational at best; not to mention that it requires running even more enchantments that you have no way to tutor. Wheel can be a decent hate piece against graveyard decks but it's a bit too slow to beat a fast draw from Dredge, and DS will likely get able to get a Tasigur out.
I know this thread is more for traditional knightfall, but I know some of you in here play the vizier version and those who don't, I still value everybody's insight and opinion in this thread. I'm going to a PPTQ with this: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/counters-knightfall-1/
I'm curious what you guys think. For the SB I'm tempted to play more hate for scapeshift or other big mana decks, or I'm also wondering if I'm too vulnerable to burn too. Any thoughts are extremely appreciated!!!!
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Stroke doesn't counter Anger of the Gods for example. It's not terrible but Unified Will is so much better because we generally end up having more creatures in the matchups where we bring it in.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
2 Renegade Rallier
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Wild Defiance
Lands (22)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
First, the inclusion of multiple Spellskite and the 1-of Wild Defiance as a back-up combo seems like a better idea here than in infect since most lists run Kessig Wolf Run or Sejiri Steppe to give it some form of evasion. However, I am having second thoughts on this inclusion, in particular because I'm not sure if it will help troublesome match-ups.
Second, any advice on where to start for a sideboard (i.e. which match-ups should we focus on first)?
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
Round 1- GW Tron W 2-1
Round 2- Grixis Death's Shadow W 2-0
Round 3- Burn W 2-1 *Camera*
Round 4- Eldrazi Tron W 2-0 *Camera*
Round 5 and 6- Draw
Quarters- Lantern Control W 2-0
Semis- Living End W 2-1 *Camera*
Finals- Titanshift W 2-1 *Camera*
All of the matchs are on Twitch if you look up WNY_Gaming. There is also a winner interview afterwards talking about how I feel about the deck. Reflector Mage is an insane card at the moment. I haven't had the chance to try out any new sideboard cards but I think the staticasters are fine at 3. Thank you if you watch any of the matches and thanks @RPD for the decklist. Hoping to run Knightfall back for the RPTQ in November!
Hah that makes much more sense. The GP winning list looks weird at first but when thinking more about it, it's just super prepared to fight certain matchups. I'll try to play it a bit and then give some insight here because there is something to learn there for sure ^^
@PastorCF congrats on the PPTQ finish! I'll watch the vods when I have time. Could you explain how you feel about the lantern matchup? I have played it for a bit but I'm uncertain of what's our plan
L: Maverick
Also, divbalari suggested the use of dusk/dawn to bring back exalted creatures, which is brilliant.
Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/6toldw/thalia_heretic_cathar_in_modern/dlmgrda/
Edit #2: *****, now another person mentions it was actually the old Thalia. I dunno what to believe: https://www.reddit.com/r/KnightfallMtg/comments/6tifb8/bant_knightfall_wins_gpsaopaulo/dln9omq/
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/723559#online
If this is the right place to ask, I'm just a bit confused on what to side in and out vs popular decks.
Round 1: Affinity (2-1)
This was my only game loss to affinity across four matches. I lost to double Signal Pest with Memnite and Ornithopter. I almost stabilized, but I didn't have enough health. Game two was close, but he top decked a Blinkmoth Nexus instead of three damage. Game three was over soon after it started.
Round 2: Jeskai Control (0-2)
I didn’t establish much of a clock before Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
Round 3: R/G Tron (2-1)
She played a Pyroclasm on turn two for my turn one birds game one. Thankfully, I had a two drop and, even though she established tron, didn’t really follow it up with much. Game two she Firespout on my bird into 3/3 knight. Game 3, I had all the fun of Eldritch Evolution a Reclamation Sage into a Manglehorn to blow up an Oblivion Stone. (You can't do that with a stony silence.) I also greatly enjoyed watching my opponent play a tapped star.
Round 4: U/W Control (1-2)
Hey look, Elspeth, Sun's Champion again... (at least this time I Kessig Wolf Run on a Kitchen Finks to kill it). I feel like the U/W/X control matchup isn't that bad, but these two rounds did not go well.
Round 5: G/W Valuetown (1-2)
See round 15. That said, after this matchup, I almost wanted to drop, but I kept going.
Round 6: Affinity (2-0)
Game one, I turn two Spell Queller, turn three Spell Queller, turn four Collected Company, turn five Collected Company. Also, I think I have a little too much hate in the sideboard for this matchup. It's already pretty good pre-board.
Round 7: R/B Burn (2-0)
Game one, I was had a fast hand. Game two, well, after company hit double Kitchen Finks, my opponent conceded.
Round 8: Affinity (2-0)
Game one we both mulled to 5. The issue is, he kept an iffy 5 while I kept 2 lands, a Noble Hierarch, a Scavenging Ooze, and a Spell Queller before top-decking Collected Company and another land.
Round 9: Grishoalbrand (2-1)
Honestly, my opponent should have won this match. I kept a hand that relied vastly too much on a Noble Hierarch and my opponent Collective Brutality it and a Unified Will away. I didn't present much of a clock either. The thing is, Grishoalbrand can struggle with consistency and, well, that's what happened.
Round 10: Boros Burn (2-0)
Game one, I was just fast. Game two, he Searing Blaze my dork before Searing Blood on my Scavenging Ooze. Thankfully, I followed it up with a Kitchen Finks and he proceeded to flood while I played a Courser of Kruphix and Eldritch Evolution into another Kitchen Finks.
Round 11: Affinity (2-0)
Spell Queller is a good magic card.
Round 12: Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
He cast All is Dust game one and I nearly recovered. Had I drawn a Path to Exile or a Reflector Mage over a few turns, the game would have ended (despite a few misplays on my part). So, I had to make up for it in games two and three.
Round 13: Storm (0-2)
Well, Kazu did win the entire open... Game one, I mulled to four, and, well, enough said. Game two, let's just say that two Spell Queller, two Scavenging Ooze, an Izzet Staticaster and a Reflector Mage on his turn two Baral, Chief of Compliance weren't enough.
Round 14: Jeskai Queller (2-1)
The use of Spell Queller typically hinders their ability to run wraths. To make up for this, they run bolts and paths. This highly favors knightfall as spot removal is, in a way, pretty bad against the deck.
Round 15: Todd Stevens with G/W Valuetown (0-2) (Agreed upon draw to guarantee top 32 as neither of us could be in the top 16)
After playing the matchup twice (once against Mr. Todd Stevens), I'm beginning to think that it and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle are the worst matchups for Knightfall. Both G/W Valuetown and Knightfall are very grindy and value based, but Knightfall trades a little long term value for immediate value. For example, most of Spell Queller's value is the fact that it has flash, flying and exiles a spell. Compare that to Ramunap Excavator which almost draws an extra card every turn. Needless to say, Knightfall is the aggro deck in the matchup and it has very little hope of aggroing well given that our opponent is on a similar plan, but with a better late-game strategy.
Final takeaways: I really like Manglehorn over Stony Silence. I never drew Nissa, Steward of Elements, but she seems to deserve her spot. I really like 5 counter spells in the side. Lastly, I never got the retreat combo. In all honesty though, I want to replace the two retreats with Trackers in such an open meta.
All in all, it was fun. Any Questions?
In terms of G/W value town, Todd Stevens has started running Aven Mindcensor in the main. I bring this up as a way of saying that even he recognizes that the deck's primary way of beating combo is to Ghost Quarter them out (IE, he hopes for mostly fair matches).
I was also at SCG Richmond, but did not make Day 2. Here is the list that I was on:
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Reflector Mage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Izzet Staticaster
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spell Queller
2 Stony Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
Obviously, I'm on more of an aggro approach than usual, with the goal of sticking a Knight or Geist turn 2, and protecting it from there. In terms of the sideboard, I think Spell Queller is only really good against combo decks that don't pack removal like Ad Naus and Vizier Combo. Disdainful Stroke on the other hand is the truth. It beats everything of importance in E Tron and Titanshift and unconditionally handles everything that Queller can't.
Here is how my MUs went:
L UW Control
W Jeskai Control
W UW Control
L Burn
W Sultai Delirium
L Living End
L Grixis DS
W Grixis DS
W Unknown since OP Didn't Show
Of the above, only Burn and Living End felt really bad. Going forward, I'm cutting the Scoozes from the 75 because it is just too slow. Bog is really the only card that does the job of eating graveyards like I want it to, and I think I might just have 2 SB and leave it at that. I also want more help for the Burn MU.
I'm imagining the basic sequence would look like the following:
1) Sacrifice a Forest/Plains to Knight.
2) Replacement effect of Wheel puts it back in the library before you search; grab it or another Forest/Plains.
3) Retreat triggers; untap Knight.
4) Float a mana from the new Forest/Plains.
5) Repeat steps 1 to 4 for an arbitrarily large amount of mana.
6) End with Kessig Wolf Run.
Also would be additional technical plays like sacrificing extra Forest/Plains for Horizon Canopy, then using fetchlands and Retreat's Scry 1 mode to find an answer to whatever card or combination thereof that is preventing you from just swinging with a massive Knight. And, by not constantly having to grab shocks and fetches, the Burn matchup should be a lot better.
Of course, my experience with this particular archetype is admittedly limited, so ... I await your thoughts.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
This is extremely win-more, given that you already win 99% of the time with Knight + Retreat. This needs an extra piece and the benefit is extremely situational at best; not to mention that it requires running even more enchantments that you have no way to tutor. Wheel can be a decent hate piece against graveyard decks but it's a bit too slow to beat a fast draw from Dredge, and DS will likely get able to get a Tasigur out.
WRT G/W Value town: I personally think adding blue for 4x Unified Will in the side is the way to go, and I would also recommend 2x Nissa, Steward of Elements in the main. That card is just dirty with Courser of Kruphix.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I know this thread is more for traditional knightfall, but I know some of you in here play the vizier version and those who don't, I still value everybody's insight and opinion in this thread. I'm going to a PPTQ with this: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/counters-knightfall-1/
I'm curious what you guys think. For the SB I'm tempted to play more hate for scapeshift or other big mana decks, or I'm also wondering if I'm too vulnerable to burn too. Any thoughts are extremely appreciated!!!!