I'm curious as to why you have a Burrenton Forge-Tender, Kitchen Finks, Dusk//Dawn, and Nissa in your sideboard. I think that if you're playing Reflector Mage in the main it makes more sense to play Nissa in the main.
Can't argue with your reasoning, it all seems very well thought out. You have convincing arguments on eidolon and dusk/dawn both, I'll try out 2 of each myself. Best of luck at the GP!!!! Definitely report on here if you can, seems like you'll do well. Here's hoping there's no scapeshift for you!
I honestly don't like the single burrenton. I guess I never played it against dredge, but I've only liked it the 1-2 times I landed it against living end. Against Burn it just seems like you need it early to block otherwise you'll get skullcrack'd when you sac it. I'd switch it out with another Nissa. I like the nissa, I tried a list with two of her in the main putting the retreat in the board. I don't think that was the correct choice, otherwise I'd post the list.
@TNDS I dont think that eidolon of rhetoric is that good vs vizier company. If they have druid out, they cast vizier, in our turn fetch duskwatch, in their turn kill us. Just like ad nauseam, but at least vs ad nauseam eidolon stops them from chaining cantrips. Did your testing reveal something different?
I think that the card is really overrated vs burn. Almost everything they have is instant speed, so they can virtually play 2 spells per turn - that's almost no restriction for that deck, 2 spells per turn is what they're doing anyway.
Against Vizier, Gaddock Teeg is leagues better. However, he's playing 4 Reflector Mage in the main; his configuration suits the Eidolons much more than Gaddock Teeg does.
If he has a T2 Eidolon, the Devoted Vizier combo is never resolving when he has 4 Spell Queller, 4 Reflector Mage, 2 Izzet Staticaster, and 4 Path to Exile.
The Eidolon is important because the deck kind of loses more often than not to both Storm and Ad Nauseam (multiple spell chain combos in general) over a large sample size of games.
His reasoning for having Eidolon isn't apparent at first glance but after viewing his forms of interaction, it's just the best fit for the board.
Also, one of the things about how Burn operates is its low land count and utilizing this to cast a number of cheap spells in a given turn. With Eidolon, they can't cast Swiftspear + Burn Spell. They can't rattle off a burn spell after he casts rift Bolt off suspend. They can't cast the spell under Spell Queller. It's a convoluted way to win as opposed to resolving double or even triple Courser, but again, considering his forms of interaction and hedges towards other decks, the logic checks out.
I keep Quller in my deck after sideboard most of the time. We can only succeed in the format because we have a base line of interaction with everybody and that is thanks to Spell Queller. I can't imagine starting without it as an improvement.
Since you are the one who convinced me to try Elspeth, I'll just mention some things I didn't like about Nissa: Nissa is fairly fragile since I want only 3 loyalty on her, and she will remain 3 loyalty for the rest of the game, usually. Any damage will switch her ability offline for a turn. Imagine playing Nissa on turn 2 with a dork, plus 2, then getting attacked with a Hierarch, getting Nissa's loyalty down to 2. She will have to plus again next turn before you can use her 0 ability. It's a bit awkward sometimes.
Her 0 ability is also affected by Grafdigger's Cage. Elspeth and Gideon can create bodies with Cage in play, but Cage will shut down both Company and Nissa.
The other question for me is, in close game situations, do I want a guaranteed 1/1, 2/2 token or maybe a creature or a land? I usually want a guaranteed body.
That being said, once you can set up Nissa, Courser, and a Tracker, it feels great. But it does feel like a Candyland scenario.
Edit #1: Also, a matchup I want to improve is against Eldrazi Tron, and Nissa is definitely too fragile against that matchup with trample creatures and Reality SMasher. Elspeth more likely survives with 5 loyalty and a token.
How do you guys beat Burn or Titanshift? Or at least, how do you optimize the matchup? These 2 matchups are probably the main ones that keep me from playing this at a PPTQ.
I can change something if I have to in order to make these matchups better, but I will admit that I love most of the things about this list. If I have to do some changes, that's fine. But...I'm NOT going to change the whole deck to GW Company like Eli Kassis said is better in the meta. At that point, I'll just stick to Titanshift, which has had me lose in the top 8 and top 4 in 2 PPTQs so far.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
@foodchaingoblins teeg and burrenton are great vs shift, burrenton obviously great vs burn. Maindeck reflector mage is also good vs burn.
@bentobocx
If he has a T2 Eidolon, the Devoted Vizier combo is never resolving when he has 4 Spell Queller, 4 Reflector Mage, 2 Izzet Staticaster, and 4 Path to Exile.
But this is true for almost every single deck in the format. If we start with a T2 eidolon, we can answer everything they play and win the war. Why don't we maindeck eidolon then? because it's not that great out of turn 2, and it needs to do something by itself to be worth it. Vs decks like burn and company it does nothing by itself, they can play around it perfectly. Vs control, grixis shadow, ad nauseam it's much better. Hope that I explained myself properly
@RPD If it's by itself then you're probably losing, which in that case, most sideboard cards won't get you out of that situation. Plus with his configuration, what differences would you make considering how he built his deck? It's not fair to assume the strength of a card separate from the deck. Like, if all I had was a Gaddock Teeg against Vizier, I would still lose because I have nothing with it, but this is not how games of Magic are. I'm not suggesting it's a stone cold killer in the MU, but most of our sideboard aren't a rag tag group of stone cold killer cards. It works well and, while a convoluted way to win, is still a way to win when you combine it with all the other interactions the deck has. I get where you're coming from though, as it's not the MU killer you want it to be, but it still has worth in the MU especially with the creatures the deck is playing.
I'll try to explain myself better with another card that has the same problem as eidolon: aven mindcensor. You're on the play with acceleration and cast mindcensor T2, that's a great play vs almost every deck. But that won't happen every time, and when played T3+ mindcensor isn't usually that good. There are a few decks that rely on searching later in the game. Vs those decks mindcensor is a great card, because it's amazing T2 and decent T3+. But those decks are not many, which means that it's a narrow card.
Some statistics. Playing three copies means that 22% of the games will have a T2 eidolon, 6% of the games you will draw multiple eidolons by T3 and the rest you either don't draw it or play it T3+.
This is why cards for this deck need to be useful at all stages of the game - we are playing just a few copies, and the chances that we draw them midgame are really high. That's why no one plays mindcensor, thalia heretic cathar... and I think that eidolon is still played just because it's nice with queller in grindy matchups and because storm is kind of stupid powerful right now. At least that's why I keep playing one copy, if it wasn't for that I would prefer something more versatile.
I would argue that Gaddock teeg is one of the best SB cards for this deck. Comes in vs almost every miserable matchup, locks out of the game the most impactful, difficult to deal cards of our opponents. Yes it dies to removal, but we're a creature deck, almost every sideboard card dies to removal, that shouldn't be a concern. I started playing it since minun73 said this some months ago.
2 Gaddock Teeg: my personal pet sideboard card that has saved my butt time and time again. Comes in against tron, control (to stop wraths and cryptic or at least draw removal spells out), scapeshift, abzan company, and sun and moon. Sometimes he severely hoses our opponents, but at the very least he buys us time to beat down while our opponent deals with him. High ceiling. Our companies being uncastable is an unfortunate side-effect but if you have him out in those matches, you should already be winning. You should not cut company when bringing him in unless you have other reasons to do so as company is still your best cards and helps find Teeg. Besides, you'll still need company if you never see him to have a chance in some matchups.
@foodchaingoblins teeg and burrenton are great vs shift, burrenton obviously great vs burn. Maindeck reflector mage is also good vs burn.
Those are solid options to know, although 4 Collected Company would have to go out for Teeg, most likely. Or you could hope to CoCo into him, but other CoCos would be dead... I still don't think it's enough to sway the matchup. I've been playing and playing it and I can't get it over 40% at best.
With Burn, I can't get it above 45%. But this is probably the nature of matchups. These matchups just won't ever be good for us. I just hope to know what needs to be done to beat them; basically maximize the matchup. For example, when I played Bogles, I knew that I lose to Twin. I tried and tried and there was literally nothing I could do. But...I also knew exactly what needed to take place for me to win. I knew what texture the game had to have for me to be successful.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
@FoodChainGoblins I was inspired by Bento to play 3 Coursers in my deck (Bento plays 4). THere is quite a bit of Burn in my local meta. Once you can get a Courser down, he is a solid blocker and life gainer, and the game will immediately be uphill for Burn. I might even go to 4 Coursers. But I'm not sure how good they are yet versus Eldrazi Tron.
I also thought that Scavenging Ooze would be good against Burn, but there is never enough creatures in the GY to eat in time. It's usually okay for 1-2 life gain from a dead goblin. Path to Exile is kind of a nonbo when planning to gain life off Ooze cause it exiles.
I think if on top of 1-2 sideboard cards like Forge-Tender, you also side in a couple of Negates, you can stall Burn once it gets you under 10 life.
Add a couple of Kitchen Finks if you really want to get over the hump. Also, I might play more Qasali Pridemages to kill Eidolons easier.
yesterday i've piloted Bant Knightfall for the first time to a 3-1 finish.
I didn't want to go into detail, because my 2 wins against Death's Shadow has been because of there bad draws and my third win was against a more kitchen-table Bant Emeria Brew.
I want instead to discuss my decklist because i've picked the deck with a more Zoo / Beatdown-Plan in mind.
Some weird choices though, but i'm a big believer that this deck is more of a beatdown plan.
That's why i choose Rhonas and tracker, not Reflector Mage or Courser.
Simic Charm is a flex spot and super-experimental.
I maybe total wrong on this one, maybe another Creature fits better here.
You may have noticed that i run just 7 Dorks, that's because it't awkward to have 2 dorks in the opener, but even more awkward to have 3.
Also Birds of Paradise is not super-great, just ok'ish.
Tireless Tracker impressed me the most, Selfless Spirit has been great too.
I wasn't able to combo once and boarded the Combo out every time because i didn't expect that it would win me the game.
@TNDS I play 1 eidolon 2 teeg but if you value eidolon highly, maybe 2 eidolon 1 teeg is okay.
Please report on how dusk to dawn performs, and versus which matchups. I initially dismissed it for this deck, but today I was playing jund shadow and got rekt by double dusk (I played around the first one not the second one). I'm skeptical, because it's great in matchups where I think we are already favored but it's definitely a powerful card. Where do you side it in? shadow, eldrazi and something else?
I keep all CoCos in when I board teeg in. the reason why is if they need teeg gone to cast something specifically, they'll remove teeg. After they remove teeg, cast the CoCo or two you had rotting in your hand. Obviously getting Teeg off a CoCo does feel super sweet, but remember that if the 4 CMC spell is already on the stack Teeg won't do anything about it.
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I think that the card is really overrated vs burn. Almost everything they have is instant speed, so they can virtually play 2 spells per turn - that's almost no restriction for that deck, 2 spells per turn is what they're doing anyway.
L: Maverick
If he has a T2 Eidolon, the Devoted Vizier combo is never resolving when he has 4 Spell Queller, 4 Reflector Mage, 2 Izzet Staticaster, and 4 Path to Exile.
The Eidolon is important because the deck kind of loses more often than not to both Storm and Ad Nauseam (multiple spell chain combos in general) over a large sample size of games.
His reasoning for having Eidolon isn't apparent at first glance but after viewing his forms of interaction, it's just the best fit for the board.
Also, one of the things about how Burn operates is its low land count and utilizing this to cast a number of cheap spells in a given turn. With Eidolon, they can't cast Swiftspear + Burn Spell. They can't rattle off a burn spell after he casts rift Bolt off suspend. They can't cast the spell under Spell Queller. It's a convoluted way to win as opposed to resolving double or even triple Courser, but again, considering his forms of interaction and hedges towards other decks, the logic checks out.
Her 0 ability is also affected by Grafdigger's Cage. Elspeth and Gideon can create bodies with Cage in play, but Cage will shut down both Company and Nissa.
The other question for me is, in close game situations, do I want a guaranteed 1/1, 2/2 token or maybe a creature or a land? I usually want a guaranteed body.
That being said, once you can set up Nissa, Courser, and a Tracker, it feels great. But it does feel like a Candyland scenario.
Edit #1: Also, a matchup I want to improve is against Eldrazi Tron, and Nissa is definitely too fragile against that matchup with trample creatures and Reality SMasher. Elspeth more likely survives with 5 loyalty and a token.
For reference, I'm using this list -
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/687187#paper
I can change something if I have to in order to make these matchups better, but I will admit that I love most of the things about this list. If I have to do some changes, that's fine. But...I'm NOT going to change the whole deck to GW Company like Eli Kassis said is better in the meta. At that point, I'll just stick to Titanshift, which has had me lose in the top 8 and top 4 in 2 PPTQs so far.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)@bentobocx
But this is true for almost every single deck in the format. If we start with a T2 eidolon, we can answer everything they play and win the war. Why don't we maindeck eidolon then? because it's not that great out of turn 2, and it needs to do something by itself to be worth it. Vs decks like burn and company it does nothing by itself, they can play around it perfectly. Vs control, grixis shadow, ad nauseam it's much better. Hope that I explained myself properly
L: Maverick
Some statistics. Playing three copies means that 22% of the games will have a T2 eidolon, 6% of the games you will draw multiple eidolons by T3 and the rest you either don't draw it or play it T3+.
This is why cards for this deck need to be useful at all stages of the game - we are playing just a few copies, and the chances that we draw them midgame are really high. That's why no one plays mindcensor, thalia heretic cathar... and I think that eidolon is still played just because it's nice with queller in grindy matchups and because storm is kind of stupid powerful right now. At least that's why I keep playing one copy, if it wasn't for that I would prefer something more versatile.
I would argue that Gaddock teeg is one of the best SB cards for this deck. Comes in vs almost every miserable matchup, locks out of the game the most impactful, difficult to deal cards of our opponents. Yes it dies to removal, but we're a creature deck, almost every sideboard card dies to removal, that shouldn't be a concern. I started playing it since minun73 said this some months ago.
L: Maverick
Forge Tender prevents damage from a red source, Valakut however is colorless.
L: Maverick
Those are solid options to know, although 4 Collected Company would have to go out for Teeg, most likely. Or you could hope to CoCo into him, but other CoCos would be dead... I still don't think it's enough to sway the matchup. I've been playing and playing it and I can't get it over 40% at best.
With Burn, I can't get it above 45%. But this is probably the nature of matchups. These matchups just won't ever be good for us. I just hope to know what needs to be done to beat them; basically maximize the matchup. For example, when I played Bogles, I knew that I lose to Twin. I tried and tried and there was literally nothing I could do. But...I also knew exactly what needed to take place for me to win. I knew what texture the game had to have for me to be successful.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I also thought that Scavenging Ooze would be good against Burn, but there is never enough creatures in the GY to eat in time. It's usually okay for 1-2 life gain from a dead goblin. Path to Exile is kind of a nonbo when planning to gain life off Ooze cause it exiles.
I think if on top of 1-2 sideboard cards like Forge-Tender, you also side in a couple of Negates, you can stall Burn once it gets you under 10 life.
Add a couple of Kitchen Finks if you really want to get over the hump. Also, I might play more Qasali Pridemages to kill Eidolons easier.
yesterday i've piloted Bant Knightfall for the first time to a 3-1 finish.
I didn't want to go into detail, because my 2 wins against Death's Shadow has been because of there bad draws and my third win was against a more kitchen-table Bant Emeria Brew.
I want instead to discuss my decklist because i've picked the deck with a more Zoo / Beatdown-Plan in mind.
4 wooded foothills
2 flooded strand
2 breeding pool
2 temple garden
1 stomping ground
1 hallowed fountain
3 forest
1 plains
1 kessig wolf run
1 gavony township
4 noble hierarch
3 voice of resurgence
2 scavenging ooze
2 selfless spirit
2 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
4 spell queller
2 tireless tracker
1 rhonas, the indomitable
4 path to exile
2 retreat to coralhelm
1 simic charm
Some weird choices though, but i'm a big believer that this deck is more of a beatdown plan.
That's why i choose Rhonas and tracker, not Reflector Mage or Courser.
Simic Charm is a flex spot and super-experimental.
I maybe total wrong on this one, maybe another Creature fits better here.
You may have noticed that i run just 7 Dorks, that's because it't awkward to have 2 dorks in the opener, but even more awkward to have 3.
Also Birds of Paradise is not super-great, just ok'ish.
Tireless Tracker impressed me the most, Selfless Spirit has been great too.
I wasn't able to combo once and boarded the Combo out every time because i didn't expect that it would win me the game.
Green @ it's best
Please report on how dusk to dawn performs, and versus which matchups. I initially dismissed it for this deck, but today I was playing jund shadow and got rekt by double dusk (I played around the first one not the second one). I'm skeptical, because it's great in matchups where I think we are already favored but it's definitely a powerful card. Where do you side it in? shadow, eldrazi and something else?
L: Maverick
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG