Somebody help me out with this. Because of the unbanning I'm switching from the 4 color version to run Kesing and Statacaster to pure Bant, cutting a bird and adding a Jace main to see how it goes. For those of you running the pure Bant, is it possible for KOTR to do a full 20 pts. of damage on turn 3 given this manna-base while still holding up a land incase you need to protect him with Sejuri Steppe? I've tried again and again and haven't been able to do it, even Ghost Quartering the Island early.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest (Uptick in Blood moon decks)
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sejiri Steppe (Better than Kessig in this meta probably)
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
Based on your list of lands, assuming all of your opening lands in your hand are fetchlands, you will have 2 forest/plains cards in play and two fetches in the yard after your Knight. You untap with Knight, he's a 4/4, and start comboing off. Each of your saccable lands in your deck = land+1 due to getting a fetch first. But you want to leave 1 forest/plains up to get steppe at instant speed. So you can get 7 forest/plains into the GY, and 7 fetches. and either a GQ or horizon canopy left in play. Let's say you also played a utility land this turn so you have something to GQ. so you GQ that land, still have your last forest/plains in play for steppe, and you will have 16 lands in your GY (7 forest/plains, 7 fetches, GQ, and the utility land that you GQ'd). That's an 18/18 Knight. BUT you still have that last Forest/Plains in play which you can sac to get horizon canopy to make knight a 20/20. But that's best situation, and turns off your steppe ability. This is also assuming you entered attack phase before you started comboing, or else your knight is tapped without a fetchland up. But If one of your lands you drew was a basic or shock, you lose the +1 from getting an extra fetch land.
It's very complicated. But I would say you will not reliably do 20 damage with one swing while keeping up Steppe. But there's also exalted.
brosterman, Thanks. Thats exactly what I was getting but I kept seeing that same manna-base at 22 lands and was thinking that I was missing something. I don't want to rely on my opponents hurting themselves to pull it off on 3.
Yeah, just remember that you can only sac Forests or Plains. That's a reason you don't often see the basic Island in the deck (not saying it's wrong though). If you are inexperienced with KotR, sometimes you forget because it lets you fetch any land but can only sac G/W. I've been playing this deck for awhile now, and I almost never need the Kessig to do the full 20 damage. Usually you have already pecked in a few damage with Quellers or Coursers, or the opponent did 2-4 damage to themselves and only really need 14-17 damage from the Knight. That being said, you really need it if you want to combo against Tron (which is probably the matchup where you want to combo the most)
I've been running it hard for about a year now. I've always been of the mindset to never put an Island in it simply because KOTR can't target it but it almost feels necessary if the list is going to start running Jace.
From early testing, Jace is just disgusting in this deck. In a good way.
Jace + Courser = free cards and life. Add Tireless Tracker and/or Knight to the mix to make the value even more absurd.
Jace + birds/hierarchs = Brainstorm to sharply increase card quality
Jace + Coco = set up double Knight Coco.
I think we have to go 8 manadorks if we hope to support 6-7 4-drop spells. The suite of 3-drops I'm running currently is 4 Knights, 4 Quellers, 2 Coursers, 2 Trackers, 1 Clique. Clique has been REALLY good in my testing, doing things like blanking a Breach deck's combo, removing Supreme Verdict from UW, etc. I'm seriously considering going up to 2 Cliques because in a meta where we're going to be fighting over Jace on turn 4, it's really nice to have Spell Queller up as well as Clique. Also some have suggested that Jace will cause an uptick in combo decks, and Clique is one of the better ways to counter that.
So I hate to say it but we may need to pony up the cash for this one...
I don't know what spell based combo will be as popular as storm, but I'm almost certain it's the aggro decks that will rise in popularity.
In regard to buying Jace, just be patient man! Magic isn't going anywhere. Wait for Masters 25 to come out and then consider buying it. Borrow from your friends or people or w.e. (buy fakes lol joking) so it doesn't hurt you financially. We're still people. We have bills to pay, food to buy, friends and family to see and spend time with. Probably wizards will recognize the demand and barrier of Jace (it'd be complete bull***** if you needed Jace to compete against fair decks AS a fair deck but couldn't afford it) and have an increase of supply for Masters 25, which will bring down the price by a lot.
I don't know if you even want 2-3 Retreat. I think 1 is fine because Jace will win a lot of games by itself especially since we can defend it with a plethora of creatures and Collected Company. I REALLY don't like a traditional midrange build because we don't have Green Sun's Zenith. You're not even playing Cantrips which is a necessity if you want to keep up in efficiency. The reason why CoCo is great is that even though we don't have the most efficient stuff, we can create a board state greater than the sum of it's parts.
I've been trying the deck without Cocos and going heavier on PWers with some alright success online, but still need to play it a bunch more and for the format to settle down to see how it really is. On that same note, it's hard to build a sideboard tailored for the wild west that is modern right now! I originally started with the full playset of Jaces, but Jace flood is a real thing. These's a few cards like the Tamiyo and Avacyn that are more to see how they perform than anything, not got enough reps in with them. I tried with a couple of Retreats too the first league, but I'm not sure they're necessary with something like Jace.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has tried this? Coco could just be better than Jace in the deck too, honestly.
Play question: Let's say opponent is on UW Control and passing the turn with 4 mana untapped. When is the best time to play non-creature spells like CoCo and planeswalkers? At 4 mana, they have access to Cryptic Command and other counterspells. Are we just waiting for them to tap out?
How do you guys plan to deal with Terminus? It's immune to Spell Queller and Selfless Spirits. Our only defense is Unified Will in the sideboard.
I feel like it's going to be hard to fit in Jace, Retreat, CoCo, AND path all in the maindeck. That's why I suggested the CoCo-less deck. But maybe we just drop retreat and play 2x jace in place of the 2x retreat. And I really like Clique 1-2 in the main. One little Clique trick is to cast it in response to a fetchland after an opponent brainstormed with Jace. That causes you to take the best card from their hand, and their draw is the unwanted card on top that they were trying to shuffle away.
I really like your first list. Would it be worth cutting a fetch for a basic forest or plains just to ensure that you can combo on turn three and hold up Steppe if you opponent hasn't hurt themselves via fetching? Also, short of the Miracles lists that are running around, I feel a few Selfless Spirits fit in nicely to negate Verdicts and Bolt.
I was messing around with Jace builds and did pretty well with this list just playing against a proxied gauntlet with friends. Dont have Jaces on MTGO so stuck with proxy testing this till next week.
I don't know if I'm crazy for wanting to play the Nissa, but she has actually been pretty good the times I cast her. In a few games I had her down beside a Jace and was able to set up her 0 with brainstorm for crazy card advantage.
I have a pretty greedy mana base right now, not sure if I should try to keep the kessig/red source, but its pretty hard to let go of turning my dudes int fireballs. I already dropped the sejiri steppe since I rarely ever need to use it, and it messes with a lot of opening hands or if you draw it early. Not sure about the basic Island either, but it feels like I should have it. I've been liking Moorland Haunt in my recent Company builds for the grindy matchups, where holding a board state is a challenge. I think it's easier to get value in more situations compared to Gavony. I'm also trying Field of Ruin over a GQ, to be able to get rid of problematic lands without setting myself back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Anybody here testing a BBE configuration over a Jace one? I feel like it's being a bit overlooked right now. I started playing a BBE Retreat list today and it's been really fun. List:
It's pretty much just Zoo splashing for Retreat. Losing out on CoCo feels weird since I've pretty much only played CoCo decks in Modern since that card released, but BBE has been a really fun card to play with. Hell, I've even cascaded into a Retreat for the win. Playing red over blue right now has felt nice since I've been able to deal with opposing Jaces more cleanly and having access to bolt as a removal spell rather than relying just on path has been a welcome change. Hell, to fight Jace decks I even started taking out Retreats and Breeding Pool to side in Choke which has been fun. This is certainly more on the aggressive and proactive side while still having access to a turn three combo which might be more where you want to be with Jace being in the crosshairs (even though playing with JTMS in modern has still been really fun). And hey, if you want to join in on the post-ban festivities but don't have $300 to play Jace, might as well run BBE.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Round 1: Mono-Blue Thing in Ice/Cryptic Serpent
This was a cool deck and I only drew one Path in a game. He flipped his Thing in the Ice consistently and defended with Cryptic Commands. Having Reflector Mages would've been helpful with this deck. 0-2
Round 2: Storm
I've played Storm 2-3 times and won, so I was pretty comfortable. Game 1, I Pathed his Baral and UR guy, then drew Scavenging Ooze while having a clock. Killed him in 5-6 turns. Next game was similar, except I boarded in 3 Unified Will and 1 Negate, and 1 Bojuka Bog which reset his whole graveyard. After the game, he told me he got unlucky and flooded a bit. 2-0
Round 3: BW Eldrazi
Close first game. My opening hand was so *****ty (5 lands, Courser of Kruphix, Path) that his three discard spells he played weren't effective. I got pretty lucky, picking up Collected Company and Tireless Tracker after turn 4. He pressured with Lingering Souls, but I got down a 6/6 Knight of the Reliquary and Voice of Resurgence (from CoCo?), he got out 2 more Spirits, Thoughtknot Seer, Wasteland Strangler (w/o anything to process), and I outraced him. Second game, his hand wasn't great and I got out more creatures, including two big Knights of the Reliquary.
Round 4: UB Control
First game, he didn't draw very well, and I just played creatures and attacked. Second game was a grind, but I knew my deck had tons of value. I boarded in all my counterspells and boarded out Paths. Managed to Negate a Damnation and got out a Scavenging Ooze, which really helped contain the good spells in his graveyard from getting reused by Snapcaster. I had Nissa, Steward of Elements at 9 loyalty, and my endgame was to get him down to 10, then finish with her ultimate, but she was bounced by Cryptic Command, then Remanded twice. He almost turned the game around with Kalitas, getting zombies and gaining life, but I got out enough creatures to just get lethal damage going wide. 2-0
Round 5: N/A
Both decided to draw to guarantee top 8.
Top 8: Valakut
Not much to say. Game 1, I mulliganed and didn't have too fast of a hand. He Scapeshifted turn 4-5, and I died. Game 2, I boarded in counterspells, but didn't draw any. I mulliganed. He played Prismatic Omen and Primeval Titan to get me for lethal for 18.
Thoughts: I was really happy with my results. Playing with 3 Nissas is a bit of an experiment, and I was glad it didn't bite me in the butt. Bant Company, especially with my build which has zero Ghost Quarters, stands little chance versus Valakut. I think I'll insert maybe 2-3 Flashfreezes in the deck. I think that approach is less intrusive than the Ghost Quarter/Ramunap/Surgical Extraction approach. Scavenging Ooze, which I usually don't play many copies of, was an MVP in this tourny where I played 2. Against Storm and UB control, they sealed the deal. I honestly didn't expect to face any Valakut decks in this disruption heavy meta, so I've stopped playing Aven Mindcensors. It's also something I'll consider in the future, but otherwise, I'm happy with my current list.
Further thoughts: The common challenge with this deck, IMO, is sequencing on which creatures to play. I encounter this when I have a Voice and a Qasali. Qasali has exalted and can attack for 3 by himself. Voice protects against counterspells. In game vs Valakut, I wanted a faster clock to I played Qasali. But being unfamiliar with Valakut, he killed it with bolt, then played Prismatic Omen. This allowed him to win game faster. These decisions occur throughout the game since all our creatures are often the same cost.
Wouldn't you ALWAYS play Voice first, then Qasali the next turn? This would allow Voice to attack the next turn for 3, and still be a pain to deal with for Turns 2 and 3 with his abilities.
Yeah, you're right, if it's just a choice between those two. But most of the time, in the next turn, if you have 3 mana (w/o dork), you have chance to play your 3-cost creatures. So playing Qasali on turn 3 takes up opportunity cost.
I think in making the case for Jace, this article ignores one of Knightfall's greatest strenghts: its velocity. Jace is a super powerful card, but it's incredibly low velocity compared to you average CoCo. You can just win out of nowhere with a turn 3-4 CoCo into Retreat, or simply field a strong enough presence to run over your opponent the next turn. Or hit a Tireless Tracker and get tons of grind value on a relevant body. Sure, Jace is more resilient, but you've got 6-8 dorks, Knight, Scooze, Tracker, Selfless Spirit, Spell Queller, and Voice tokens all competing for removal. Board wipes are really what you need to fade, and being able to play at instant speed lets you hold Spell Queller for that purpose.
I certainly don't have the experience to claim that Jace is good or bad in this deck in place of CoCo, but I think the article doesn't pay enough mind to that strength of CoCo. (I know he says CoCo is faster in a lot of the matchup analyses, but I think it's more relevant and more frequently than he seems to believe.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
After playing the deck through a bunch more leagues, I started replacing Jaces with Cocos until I got back to 4 copies. I'm pretty convinced it's just better in the deck, but we could still play a couple of Jaces on the side.
I do think it's worth trying dorks + jaces in a Bant shell though, currently trying a Lotus Cobra build with a higher end of stuff like Thragtusks, Sigarda, Baneslayer etc alongside 3 Jaces and a couple of Gideons.
What is everyone's thoughts about playing Blood Moon in the sideboard as a strategy against Valakut? I'm considering either 3 Disdainful Stroke, 4 Unified Will; or 2 Ghost Quarter (plus 2 in the main), 4 Unified Will; or 3 Blood Moon, 4 Unified Will.
On average, I think it takes my Knightfall deck about 5-7 turns to deal 20 damage. This isn't very fast, especially if the other playing has Lightning Bolts and Sweltering Suns to slow us down.
4 GQs and 4 Unified Wills seem like a good approach, but I'm wondering whether Blood Moon is just much more efficient. It'd just necessitate playing and searching for basics...
Also, I feel Blood Moon is much better against Tron than GQs.
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Based on your list of lands, assuming all of your opening lands in your hand are fetchlands, you will have 2 forest/plains cards in play and two fetches in the yard after your Knight. You untap with Knight, he's a 4/4, and start comboing off. Each of your saccable lands in your deck = land+1 due to getting a fetch first. But you want to leave 1 forest/plains up to get steppe at instant speed. So you can get 7 forest/plains into the GY, and 7 fetches. and either a GQ or horizon canopy left in play. Let's say you also played a utility land this turn so you have something to GQ. so you GQ that land, still have your last forest/plains in play for steppe, and you will have 16 lands in your GY (7 forest/plains, 7 fetches, GQ, and the utility land that you GQ'd). That's an 18/18 Knight. BUT you still have that last Forest/Plains in play which you can sac to get horizon canopy to make knight a 20/20. But that's best situation, and turns off your steppe ability. This is also assuming you entered attack phase before you started comboing, or else your knight is tapped without a fetchland up. But If one of your lands you drew was a basic or shock, you lose the +1 from getting an extra fetch land.
It's very complicated. But I would say you will not reliably do 20 damage with one swing while keeping up Steppe. But there's also exalted.
Jace + Courser = free cards and life. Add Tireless Tracker and/or Knight to the mix to make the value even more absurd.
Jace + birds/hierarchs = Brainstorm to sharply increase card quality
Jace + Coco = set up double Knight Coco.
I think we have to go 8 manadorks if we hope to support 6-7 4-drop spells. The suite of 3-drops I'm running currently is 4 Knights, 4 Quellers, 2 Coursers, 2 Trackers, 1 Clique. Clique has been REALLY good in my testing, doing things like blanking a Breach deck's combo, removing Supreme Verdict from UW, etc. I'm seriously considering going up to 2 Cliques because in a meta where we're going to be fighting over Jace on turn 4, it's really nice to have Spell Queller up as well as Clique. Also some have suggested that Jace will cause an uptick in combo decks, and Clique is one of the better ways to counter that.
So I hate to say it but we may need to pony up the cash for this one...
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
In regard to buying Jace, just be patient man! Magic isn't going anywhere. Wait for Masters 25 to come out and then consider buying it. Borrow from your friends or people or w.e. (buy fakes lol joking) so it doesn't hurt you financially. We're still people. We have bills to pay, food to buy, friends and family to see and spend time with. Probably wizards will recognize the demand and barrier of Jace (it'd be complete bull***** if you needed Jace to compete against fair decks AS a fair deck but couldn't afford it) and have an increase of supply for Masters 25, which will bring down the price by a lot.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has tried this? Coco could just be better than Jace in the deck too, honestly.
How do you guys plan to deal with Terminus? It's immune to Spell Queller and Selfless Spirits. Our only defense is Unified Will in the sideboard.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Geist of Saint Traft
Non-Creature
4 Path To Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Field of Ruin
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Stony Silence
1 Unified Will
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Reflector Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
I don't know if I'm crazy for wanting to play the Nissa, but she has actually been pretty good the times I cast her. In a few games I had her down beside a Jace and was able to set up her 0 with brainstorm for crazy card advantage.
I have a pretty greedy mana base right now, not sure if I should try to keep the kessig/red source, but its pretty hard to let go of turning my dudes int fireballs. I already dropped the sejiri steppe since I rarely ever need to use it, and it messes with a lot of opening hands or if you draw it early. Not sure about the basic Island either, but it feels like I should have it. I've been liking Moorland Haunt in my recent Company builds for the grindy matchups, where holding a board state is a challenge. I think it's easier to get value in more situations compared to Gavony. I'm also trying Field of Ruin over a GQ, to be able to get rid of problematic lands without setting myself back.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Path To Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Domri Rade
23 Lands
It's pretty much just Zoo splashing for Retreat. Losing out on CoCo feels weird since I've pretty much only played CoCo decks in Modern since that card released, but BBE has been a really fun card to play with. Hell, I've even cascaded into a Retreat for the win. Playing red over blue right now has felt nice since I've been able to deal with opposing Jaces more cleanly and having access to bolt as a removal spell rather than relying just on path has been a welcome change. Hell, to fight Jace decks I even started taking out Retreats and Breeding Pool to side in Choke which has been fun. This is certainly more on the aggressive and proactive side while still having access to a turn three combo which might be more where you want to be with Jace being in the crosshairs (even though playing with JTMS in modern has still been really fun). And hey, if you want to join in on the post-ban festivities but don't have $300 to play Jace, might as well run BBE.
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Round 1: Mono-Blue Thing in Ice/Cryptic Serpent
This was a cool deck and I only drew one Path in a game. He flipped his Thing in the Ice consistently and defended with Cryptic Commands. Having Reflector Mages would've been helpful with this deck. 0-2
Round 2: Storm
I've played Storm 2-3 times and won, so I was pretty comfortable. Game 1, I Pathed his Baral and UR guy, then drew Scavenging Ooze while having a clock. Killed him in 5-6 turns. Next game was similar, except I boarded in 3 Unified Will and 1 Negate, and 1 Bojuka Bog which reset his whole graveyard. After the game, he told me he got unlucky and flooded a bit. 2-0
Round 3: BW Eldrazi
Close first game. My opening hand was so *****ty (5 lands, Courser of Kruphix, Path) that his three discard spells he played weren't effective. I got pretty lucky, picking up Collected Company and Tireless Tracker after turn 4. He pressured with Lingering Souls, but I got down a 6/6 Knight of the Reliquary and Voice of Resurgence (from CoCo?), he got out 2 more Spirits, Thoughtknot Seer, Wasteland Strangler (w/o anything to process), and I outraced him. Second game, his hand wasn't great and I got out more creatures, including two big Knights of the Reliquary.
Round 4: UB Control
First game, he didn't draw very well, and I just played creatures and attacked. Second game was a grind, but I knew my deck had tons of value. I boarded in all my counterspells and boarded out Paths. Managed to Negate a Damnation and got out a Scavenging Ooze, which really helped contain the good spells in his graveyard from getting reused by Snapcaster. I had Nissa, Steward of Elements at 9 loyalty, and my endgame was to get him down to 10, then finish with her ultimate, but she was bounced by Cryptic Command, then Remanded twice. He almost turned the game around with Kalitas, getting zombies and gaining life, but I got out enough creatures to just get lethal damage going wide. 2-0
Round 5: N/A
Both decided to draw to guarantee top 8.
Top 8: Valakut
Not much to say. Game 1, I mulliganed and didn't have too fast of a hand. He Scapeshifted turn 4-5, and I died. Game 2, I boarded in counterspells, but didn't draw any. I mulliganed. He played Prismatic Omen and Primeval Titan to get me for lethal for 18.
Thoughts: I was really happy with my results. Playing with 3 Nissas is a bit of an experiment, and I was glad it didn't bite me in the butt. Bant Company, especially with my build which has zero Ghost Quarters, stands little chance versus Valakut. I think I'll insert maybe 2-3 Flashfreezes in the deck. I think that approach is less intrusive than the Ghost Quarter/Ramunap/Surgical Extraction approach. Scavenging Ooze, which I usually don't play many copies of, was an MVP in this tourny where I played 2. Against Storm and UB control, they sealed the deal. I honestly didn't expect to face any Valakut decks in this disruption heavy meta, so I've stopped playing Aven Mindcensors. It's also something I'll consider in the future, but otherwise, I'm happy with my current list.
Further thoughts: The common challenge with this deck, IMO, is sequencing on which creatures to play. I encounter this when I have a Voice and a Qasali. Qasali has exalted and can attack for 3 by himself. Voice protects against counterspells. In game vs Valakut, I wanted a faster clock to I played Qasali. But being unfamiliar with Valakut, he killed it with bolt, then played Prismatic Omen. This allowed him to win game faster. These decisions occur throughout the game since all our creatures are often the same cost.
I think in making the case for Jace, this article ignores one of Knightfall's greatest strenghts: its velocity. Jace is a super powerful card, but it's incredibly low velocity compared to you average CoCo. You can just win out of nowhere with a turn 3-4 CoCo into Retreat, or simply field a strong enough presence to run over your opponent the next turn. Or hit a Tireless Tracker and get tons of grind value on a relevant body. Sure, Jace is more resilient, but you've got 6-8 dorks, Knight, Scooze, Tracker, Selfless Spirit, Spell Queller, and Voice tokens all competing for removal. Board wipes are really what you need to fade, and being able to play at instant speed lets you hold Spell Queller for that purpose.
I certainly don't have the experience to claim that Jace is good or bad in this deck in place of CoCo, but I think the article doesn't pay enough mind to that strength of CoCo. (I know he says CoCo is faster in a lot of the matchup analyses, but I think it's more relevant and more frequently than he seems to believe.)
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I do think it's worth trying dorks + jaces in a Bant shell though, currently trying a Lotus Cobra build with a higher end of stuff like Thragtusks, Sigarda, Baneslayer etc alongside 3 Jaces and a couple of Gideons.
On average, I think it takes my Knightfall deck about 5-7 turns to deal 20 damage. This isn't very fast, especially if the other playing has Lightning Bolts and Sweltering Suns to slow us down.
4 GQs and 4 Unified Wills seem like a good approach, but I'm wondering whether Blood Moon is just much more efficient. It'd just necessitate playing and searching for basics...
Also, I feel Blood Moon is much better against Tron than GQs.
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (7)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Domri Rade
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stony Silence
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW