Of the top decks (Grixis Shadow, Affinity, Counters Company, Humans, Burn, Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Eldrazi and Taxes), the only matchups I'm worried about playing is Affinity, Counters Company, and Death and Taxes decks. These decks are fast in ways that don't match well with traditional Knightfall lists (correct me, please, if I'm wrong).
So, in my opinion, cards like EWit and Geist don't improve our speed, nor help us stabilize. Clique sounds great versus Affinity and Vizier combo. Also, more Qasali Pridemages sound good too to get rid of Vials and artifacts. I also play 2 Aven Mindcensors to limit CoCo and Chord, and it also helps block fliers in Affinity.
On the flip side, there are also those matches when it's a grind/value matchup. I play 2 Tireless Trackers and 3 Voice of Resurgence in main. And Flip Jace seems really good. If I can, I always try to fit in as many planeswalkers as I can into this deck (Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Nissa, Steward). My 2 cents.
Hi, all, what is everyone's thoughts on what to replace Reflector Mage? Maybe Deadeye Harpooner instead of Reflector Mage? It's better against decks that use Vial that can just play the bounced creature again. It's slightly easier to cast at 1 white, 2 colourless. I feel there are enough fetches to activate this card.
The major downside, of course, is that the targeted creature has to be tapped. But it combos well with Retreat to Coralhelm.
I'm just finding Reflector Mage underwhelming in certain matchups, and too much of a win-more against Shadow decks, and only a slight deterrent against similar mirror decks.
Hi, all, what is everyone's thoughts on what to replace Reflector Mage? Maybe Deadeye Harpooner instead of Reflector Mage? It's better against decks that use Vial that can just play the bounced creature again. It's slightly easier to cast at 1 white, 2 colourless. I feel there are enough fetches to activate this card.
The major downside, of course, is that the targeted creature has to be tapped. But it combos well with Retreat to Coralhelm.
I'm just finding Reflector Mage underwhelming in certain matchups, and too much of a win-more against Shadow decks, and only a slight deterrent against similar mirror decks.
I don't think it's a good replacement. Sure, the casting is easier but in the worst case you hit her in a Company and your opponent has no tapped creautre/you have no Revolt-trigger. Imo Fiend Hunter is even better than Deadeye Harpooner. Also I'm a huge fan of Reflector Mage.
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I'm moving from Human Knightfall to classic Knightfall and need some help - here is my current list:
First of all some choice I have to explain: Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest - obvious budget cut
2nd Temple Garden - no Canopys at my LGS... so it's budget.
3x Noble Hierarch - I didn't manage to get a 4th Hierarch... What's your opinion on the amount of manadorks? In the Humanbuild 7 was right because the curve was a little bit lower and I could play more aggro with a Champion of the Parsih. Intuitively I would play 7 dorks. Voice of Resurgence - never played with the card. What is the right number to play here? Some posts earlier somebody stated that Voice is good is almost every matchup. I share that opinion. Reflector Mage - MVP in the humanbuild! Some classic lists play 0 other play up to 4 (split main and side). What's the forums opinion?
The sideboard is just an idea for now. In the humanbuild I had 1x Bojuka Bog but I think with ScOoze I have enough graveyardhate.
Reflector Mage feels better in more tempo decks likes Human Company. IMO, it's good in Knightfall, too, but classic Knightfall is a little slow at times, and probably can't take advantage of the two turns of bounced defender to kill the opponent. You are usually just buying time to draw a better answer. This is why I think Voice of Resurgence is great especially in Knightfall. It grows bigger with time and takes advantage of those times you draw a Bird of Paradise, which usually does nothing but now can grow the Elemental token.
My other thinking is that Knightfall really only has one beater: Knight of the Reliquary. Occasionally Tireless Tracker. That's why Voice of Resurgence is important, IMO. We need a second/third option for a big body. In midrange matchups, it's been the Elemental that has stabilized the board and won me the game. It's obviously also great versus control.
I like using the Reflector Mage spot for a better stabilization card. One more Tireless Tracker to grow big and dig for answers. More flyers like Aven Mindcensor to break stalled boards or block versus Affinity. I don't have the perfect replacement just yet, though.
As an aside, I've been very inspired by an oldish list that won the GP Sao Paolo last year. I'm trying to figure out what made it successful. I've a feeling that it wins a lot through the combo on game 1, since it has 3 Retreats. Also I love how it has 3 Tireless Trackers. I'm still unsure about the Thalias though. I don't know how they work with the deck. Also the 3 Ceremonious Rejection and 3 Flashfreezes in the sideboard are ingenious. Any thoughts?
Some quick suggestions after looking over your decklist:
1. I think the proper land/dork configuration is 8 dorks/22 Lands or 7 dorks/23 Lands. You're on 7/22. I would bump that up to 7/23, especially with 2x tireless tracker drawing extra lands is totally fine for you. An active Knight also helps thin your deck once you get to 3 or 4 lands.
2. I just noticed there's no Horizon Canopy. Make that your 23rd land. It's cheap now. No excuse not to have it. It's important with Knight, and always comes into play untapped.
3. 3 Scooze is a lot. It's not as good in this deck as it is in decks like jund. I would just play 1. or 0.
4. I would trim a qasali pridemage down to 1. I don't really like the card, but some people swear by it. It's a personal preference I guess. I would go up to 3 VoR though.
5. I would cut Vendilion Clique completely. It's semi-hard to cast and not always great, so I eventually moved mine to the sideboard. And then once it was there, I realized it's not very impactful so I didn't think it was worth a SB slot either.
That's about it. SB looks fine. I would personally try and add another Unified Will or 2x Negate, but it's personal preference. Good Luck!
This is why I think Voice of Resurgence is great especially in Knightfall. It grows bigger with time and takes advantage of those times you draw a Bird of Paradise, which usually does nothing but now can grow the Elemental token.
Hitting a CoCo with two dorks in the Humanlist was ok because they were pumping your champion/Lieutenant. Never saw it like you said with the Voice! I just orginized a second Voice for todays FNM!
I also like the Negate in the main. How does it work out for you?
I'm still unsure about the Thalias though. I don't know how they work with the deck. Also the 3 Ceremonious Rejection and 3 Flashfreezes in the sideboard are ingenious. Any thoughts?
Thalia is a good card! Would definitely try it - the question is what to cut?
Some quick suggestions after looking over your decklist:
1. I think the proper land/dork configuration is 8 dorks/22 Lands or 7 dorks/23 Lands. You're on 7/22. I would bump that up to 7/23, especially with 2x tireless tracker drawing extra lands is totally fine for you. An active Knight also helps thin your deck once you get to 3 or 4 lands.
2. I just noticed there's no Horizon Canopy. Make that your 23rd land. It's cheap now. No excuse not to have it. It's important with Knight, and always comes into play untapped.
3. 3 Scooze is a lot. It's not as good in this deck as it is in decks like jund. I would just play 1. or 0.
4. I would trim a qasali pridemage down to 1. I don't really like the card, but some people swear by it. It's a personal preference I guess. I would go up to 3 VoR though.
5. I would cut Vendilion Clique completely. It's semi-hard to cast and not always great, so I eventually moved mine to the sideboard. And then once it was there, I realized it's not very impactful so I didn't think it was worth a SB slot either.
That's about it. SB looks fine. I would personally try and add another Unified Will or 2x Negate, but it's personal preference. Good Luck!
1. Thank your for the input! Yesterday I played a few games and had often the problem with flooding or starting with 5 lands out of my 7 - on 23 lands. Today I will try 22 lands. Maybe I can get my hands on the 4th Hierarch.
2. Yeah I'm totally with you! It's the next thing on the shopping list!
3. The main reason for now is that I have no good other 2 drops. The 2nd Voice is missing and I don't know what else I could play. I get the 2nd Voice this evening so I will cut 1x Ooze or 1x Spirit.
4. See 3.
5. The casting cost seem hard but I hope the Clique is good against combo wich we have a lot in our LGS.
Also I added 2 Negate to the sideboard and cut the Rhox War Monk - I hope Blessed Alliance is good enough against burn!
I will post my results in the next week
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Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Round 1 (2-1)
Opponent was on Delver/Docent of Perfection/Thing in Ice, 2-1. I thought he was playing some Delver deck with Thing in Ice, so I didn't side in all my removal at first (Blessed Alliance), but he played Docent of Perfection on Game 2 and got to flip it. Such a terrifying card if it sticks on the board. I hadn't figured my sideboard before this night, so I left 2 Reflector Mages that I wanted to eventually take out. These Reflector Mages were so good versus Thing in Ice, and helped me win Game 3. I'm still iffy about Reflector Mages though.
Round 2, (2-1)
Opponent was on Smallpox. I kept a hand on Game 1 with one land and two Noble Hierarchs. He Pushed my dorks, and Smallpoxed to victory. Second game I sided in Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and I managed to play it on turn 4, avoiding Thoughtseizes. I could use my Soldier tokens to protect my other creatures from Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil, and flew over to destroy his planeswalkers (LotV and Gideon, AoZ). One lesson I learned was when he smallpoxed me and I had a hand of one CoCo and one Negate, I discarded Negate, forgetting that I also had to sacrifice a land and would likely never be able to play the CoCo I kept. Should've kept the Negate.
Round 3 (0-2)
Opponent was playing Abzan. Game 1, I mulliganed to 6 with a land and a dork. Scryed a creature to bottom. He killed my dork and I never drew a land. Second game, I had a land heavy hand with Spell Queller and CoCo. He thoughtseized both cards, and I flooded out. I'm just disappointed that I didn't get a chance to play Game 1 due to the no land draw.
Round 4, (2-0)
Opponent was on UG Merfolk. I drew a lot of answers in form of Paths and Spell Quellers and CoCo, and his hands were slow. Silvergill Adept looked good when played.
All in all, I only played against one deck that's in the meta (Abzan Midrange) and I lost against it, so I'm not sure what to feel. The Abzan player did go on to 4-0, beating a Grixis Death Shadow deck. I do have a hard time versus BG Midrange decks though, about 40/60, so I'm thinking of ways of improving. I might add to the sideboard Thrun, the Last Troll, 2 Eternal Witness, and another planeswalker in addition to Elspeth---maybe Nissa, Vital Force, as an experiment.
This is the first time I've played with 3 Phyrexian Revokers, and they felt really good. I like having this answer to Devoted Druids and planeswalkers (Karn, etc) in my deck. Looking at recent Abzan lists, I do want to include more planewalkers in my deck for value. I like Retreat to Coralhem, partly because they are still useful by themselves, but I think this is a mistake in rationalization. They just aren't useful enough. I might try taking them out and slotting in either 2 Eternal Witnesses or 2 Nissa, Steward of Elements in the main deck.
Tested some games against a friend on GW Hatebears wich was a favorable matchup due our awesome airforce.
Round 1 vs. Thing Ascencsion 1-2
Game one he managed to get into the combo and milled me. Game two I kept a hand with 3 counterspells and drew the 4th counter and some Spell Quellers. Game three I had no removal for Thing in the Ice.
Round 2 vs. Saheeli Combo 0-2
Game one he stalled the board with Wall of Omens and had enough removal for my airforce. Game two I honestly threw away because I was in full-tilt-mode. Super unpleasant opponent and I just wanted to get out of the Shop to calm down and get some fresh air.
Round 3 vs. GW Hatebears 2-1
Played against my friend. Game one I screwed up one combat step and forgot about Leonin Arbiter. Game two and three he I had all Spell Quellers in the world wich where too many to handle.
Round 4 vs. ???
No one showed up and I playtested again with my buddy because he had a bye.
Deck felt really good. It's hard to tell if a hand is keepable or not - time will tell. I think I could win the Ascencsion match but didn't know when to play Spell Queller exactly. Also the 2nd game vs Saheeli he resolved a Sun Titan and I could have eat two removal from his graveyard... but I let Sun Titan resolve due to super-tilt - I know it should never happen... working on it.
So your problem against Thing in the Ice was not having removal, and your answer is to remove Reflector Mage from your list? I think you should be running 4 tbh
I think at least 2x Reflector Mage in the sideboard is a good alternative to mainboarding Reflector Mages in certain meta. Sometimes the possibility of hitting a Reflector Mage with a CoCo is all the difference in games.
Hi, all, what is everyone's thoughts on what to replace Reflector Mage? Maybe Deadeye Harpooner instead of Reflector Mage? It's better against decks that use Vial that can just play the bounced creature again. It's slightly easier to cast at 1 white, 2 colourless. I feel there are enough fetches to activate this card.
The major downside, of course, is that the targeted creature has to be tapped. But it combos well with Retreat to Coralhelm.
I'm just finding Reflector Mage underwhelming in certain matchups, and too much of a win-more against Shadow decks, and only a slight deterrent against similar mirror decks.
I don't think it's a good replacement. Sure, the casting is easier but in the worst case you hit her in a Company and your opponent has no tapped creautre/you have no Revolt-trigger. Imo Fiend Hunter is even better than Deadeye Harpooner. Also I'm a huge fan of Reflector Mage.
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I'm moving from Human Knightfall to classic Knightfall and need some help - here is my current list:
First of all some choice I have to explain: Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest - obvious budget cut
2nd Temple Garden - no Canopys at my LGS... so it's budget.
3x Noble Hierarch - I didn't manage to get a 4th Hierarch... What's your opinion on the amount of manadorks? In the Humanbuild 7 was right because the curve was a little bit lower and I could play more aggro with a Champion of the Parsih. Intuitively I would play 7 dorks. Voice of Resurgence - never played with the card. What is the right number to play here? Some posts earlier somebody stated that Voice is good is almost every matchup. I share that opinion. Reflector Mage - MVP in the humanbuild! Some classic lists play 0 other play up to 4 (split main and side). What's the forums opinion?
The sideboard is just an idea for now. In the humanbuild I had 1x Bojuka Bog but I think with ScOoze I have enough graveyardhate.
Any tips you have? As an longtime aggro-player it's a new world playing the midrangestuff.
Thank you in advance
Any Budget concerns are acceptable. Magic is retardedly expensive compared to most games so I understand if you are making cuts and considerations because of it.
Voice of Resurgence is a weird. It deters opponents from interacting with it and you on your turn, thereby discouraging reactive interaction, yet it is not a proactive card. The only reason you'd want it is because of various flavors of interactive Blue and Black decks. The X/X body is leaves behind is nice, but Voice has to die in order for you take advantage of it, and if your board is huge then a huge voice is not necessarily winning you the game unless your board is a bunch of misfits creatures. That being said, it is still an amazing creature and helps you stabilize the board against aggressive decks and is a HUGE pain to deal with as blue decks. In this current meta, Voice is an excellent inclusion to the deck at around 2-3 copies.
Reflector Mage will always be a good card regardless of the style of deck. Yes it's great when your deck geared towards killing your opponent really fast, but it also halts aggression and board development. "Classic Knightfall" is a big midrange tempo deck and being able to disrupt your opponents rhythm, stymie their board development, and deny their aggression is a powerful tool. Our goldfish (outside of the combo) is pathetic lol. You really want to spend your time developing your board WHILST denying your opponent from doing what they want to do. In conjunction with a Knight of the Reliquary, suddenly your 2/3s are like 3/4s or 4/5s while they're trying to get back into the game. The only times Reflector Mage sucks is when you have no follow up (basically no power cards) but that has nothing to do with the card, so much you just didn't have gas lol. Also, this deck just has no good VIABLE removal aside from Path to Exile, so having a creature act as pseudo removal or you can just cast/get off coco to attack is nice. Yes it's a 2/3, but it's what we got yenno lol
Courser is great, but it really depends on what your goals are with it.
Eternal Witness also falls into that description but is a bit more flexible so if you want it, put it in lol
BFT... lol no
Elspeth is excellent if you get into insane board stalls or you're playing Geist of Saint Traft, but currently the meta is unforgiving for her and as much as I hate to say it, you shouldn't play her unless you know what's in the room. (She's my favorite planeswalker </3)
Gideon on the other hand is excellent because the stream of bodies are much more relevant than elspeths (2/2 vs. 1/1), it's a 5/5, and most importantly, it's anthem is so powerful against Jeskai.
It's awkward trying to conceptualize this deck as a midrange deck because things aren't as apparent as other midrange decks, but basically the way you build midrange decks are with Disruption, Aggression (a strong clock), Flexible Utility, and Card Advantage. You're trying to deny what your opponent is doing with disruption and flexible utility whilst killing them with an indomitable board state (ex. 3 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, 2 7/7 Death's Shadows, etc.), or an insurmountable card advantage (pro tip: if you have more stuff than your opponent, unless they can come up with lethal, you're going to win lol xD).
R1 - G Tron - 0x2
Pretty much nothing I could do. Mulled to 6 on the draw, kept a hand with a ghost quarter and no mana dork. The guy went T1 mine map, T2 power plant,i blew up one of his lands, he searched for the other with the map, and next turn played sylvan scrying with the forest he got from GQ. T4 Karn, killed with 2 creatures from CoCo, Turn 5 Ulamog exiling both creatures, Turn 6 Ugin and I conceded. The next game was pretty much the same, I had an Unified Will but he just got a lot of threats in hand.
R2 - Skred - 2x0
A friend of ours plays a quite unusual skred list, with Ensnaring Bridges and Chandra ToD in addition to Koth. G1 he played two bridges and got me 2 life. My courser recovered some of my life, and I had both my tireless trackers and a KotR making me draw cards every turn. Eventually I drew my qasali and my witness and blew both bridges. G2 he played t3 blood moon and I had turn 3 Rec Sage. Turns 4 and 5 I played two KotR. He popped a relic to make my knights 2/2 and tried anger of the gods on the following turn, but I had played a GQ and grew my knights to 4/4s. He showed 3 more angers in hand and conceded.
R3 - Eldrazi Tron - 2x0
He did not play any Smashers on these games. Two Thought-Knot Seers, but my voices are pretty nice blockers for those =)
Both games I won hitting with spell quellers, and the only thing that scared me was All is Dust, but I kept Unified Will in hand to counter that.
R4 - BG Midrange - 2x0
All the value my creatures give were too much for him to handle. Both grindy games, but not that hard.
I was having a small conversation with someone at FNM, and he said he'd switched from Knightfall to BGx because he wanted to play midrange, and BGx is a better midrange strategy. Midrange is also my preferred style of play, so I began to analyze my list to see if and how it's a weaker midrange strategy. This led me to write down how I feel about Collected Company strategies in general: most of our creatures are weak by themselves. Voice of Resurgence gives a 1/1 Elemental Token. Knight of Reliquary is slow at turn 3 without acceleration and can't tap for its ability till turn 4. Spell Queller without acceleration is much weaker on turn 3 on draw. We need acceleration in our hand to be good, and often that dork is pushed.
Now, even with a dork in play, if the other creature gets pushed, all we have is a dork on board.
My current solution, which I'll be testing, is thus: play Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. This Nissa is faster than Nissa, Steward of Elements, because Steward needs to activate it's +2 at turn 3 to be useable on turn 4. Voice of Zendikar gives me a blocker immediately, a body to pump up the Elemental Token. More importantly, it pumps up my mana dorks. Bird of Paradise can now block Spirit tokens at 1/2, and attack for some damage.
I know this is an outside the box idea, but I'd like to hear your thoughts before I put this into action. Thanks!
Kind of an interesting list.. Relying on Black creature-based disruption in the main and Thoughtseize/Brutality post board. Assuming he was heavily metagaming towards Storm/Tron while still leveraging the strength of Company/KOTR/Tracker vs. Shadow decks.
Kind of an interesting list.. Relying on Black creature-based disruption in the main and Thoughtseize/Brutality post board. Assuming he was heavily metagaming towards Storm/Tron while still leveraging the strength of Company/KOTR/Tracker vs. Shadow decks.
Looks pretty cool! Do you know which place Kelvin ended?
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Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Kind of an interesting list.. Relying on Black creature-based disruption in the main and Thoughtseize/Brutality post board. Assuming he was heavily metagaming towards Storm/Tron while still leveraging the strength of Company/KOTR/Tracker vs. Shadow decks.
Looks pretty cool! Do you know which place Kelvin ended?
He had a pretty poor run, closing at 8-8. Judging by Mengucci's article on CFB it doesn't seem like he was particaurly happy with his deck choice for Modern.
Game 1 vs UW Control
My hands were good. But as you can see from my list, I've changed my deck to be more consistent. Less generic lands like Ghost Quarter and Kessig Wolf Run, and instead Sunpetal Grove. This may be a small sample size, but I've had too many games with two lands including a Ghost Quarter. This list is so gold card heavy, that often I can't play cards at all with generic land opening hands (Voice of Resurgence, Qasali Pridemage, etc.). Match 1, I got Courser of Kruphix and Tireless Tracker out fast. I just played more creatures than he could handle, Spell Quellering a Supreme Verdict. Match 2, he bounced my Nissa, Steward of the Elements back to my hand with Cryptic Command, but I played her next turn for her ultimate. Won 2-0.
Game 2 vs BR Demon
This deck played Master of Cruelties and I had a slow opening hand with 2 lands for a while. I didn't read Master of Cruelties closely, and blocked using a 5/5 Knight, but first strike and deathtouch meant the Knight died. I chumped all my creatures, and he had Lightning Bolt in his hand if my life total went below 4. I scooped. Next 2 games, I had much better lands. Also, opponent's deck is very draw dependent. Won 2-1.
Game 3 vs UR Through the Breach
I consider myself fairly inexperienced. I only play paper Magic, and although I've heard of these cards, I've yet to play against a lot of archetypes. I mistakenly identified opponent's deck as UR Control with maybe Pyromancer. He played Bolts, Serums, Snapcaster. I won match 1 with creatures and he had very little. Match 2, he countered and bounced my guys with Remand, etc., while beating me down with a single Snapcaster. Then he Through the Breached an Inferno Titan, which I didn't see coming, and killed me. Match 3, I still didn't identify the main threat of Through the Breach. I think I had a Unified Will in hand, but I didn't board all my counterspells in. While tapped out, he Through the Breached a Emrakul. Lost 1-2.
Game 4 vs UW Control with Azcanta and Field of Ruin
I won first match just because he couldn't draw land. Second match, I felt good getting a Nissa out on turn 3, but she got Detention Sphered. Eventually, opponent Field of Ruined my blue sources and I have no basic Islands in my list. I'm going to include an Island in my deck from now on. I couldn't play Spell Quellers. He killed me with Colonnades while my defences were down. Match 3, I identified how important it was to keep him off Azcanta flip. That card is just such card advantage that I think they pretty much win the game. I managed to slow him down with a Bojuka Bog I sided in. Then the next time, I tried to Qasali Pridemage, but he countered it. This was one mistake. I played a Knight, then a Qasali. I should've identified the importance of Qasali, and played Qasali first, leaving enough mana to avoid the Logic Knot or Mana Leak, etc. Eventually he got Field of Ruined my blue sources, played Gideon Jura, and Big Elspeth, so I conceded. Also, both games, he Miracled a Terminus to really slow me down.
Nissa overperformed. So did Courser of Kruphix. Having Kessig Wolf Run or Ghost Quarter might have given me more outs, but I really like mana consistency in my deck. I have to think about it. I'm experimenting a bit. I brought in Nissa, Vital Force from my sideboard and managed to play her once, but she couldn't really save me at that point. Not sure how good she is. I need something that just stabilizes the board at 5 or 6 cost.
Unfortunately there's no GP Lyon for me... but I'm goning to a, I think, 50+ player event. Played some games with Bant Knightfall and took some extra money to upgrade my deck - here is the current list:
I except a lot of Pyromancer decks and a lot of UWx...
Last FNM I finished only 2-2 winning against GW Stompy and Storm / losing to UR Pyromancer and Soulflayer. The creature Matchup felt pretty good, especially with 3 copies of Reflector Mage (thank you @Dejadal). Storm was also ok. A resolved Eidolon is game. Lil Thalia felt always good - even in the GW Stompy game I was able to cut him off Dromoka's Command and Path.
In the Soulflayer Match I held a bad hand with one mana and two Birds in game one. Game two was close and I'm not sure if Scavenging Ooze is enough... that's why I want to have a Bojuka Bog - What do you think?
In the UR Pyromancer games I held slow hands (no one drop, some 2/3 drops) and he denials everything I do. Game two he played Blood Moon and had Countermagic for days. Playing against any kind of blue decks is somehow a big problem for me...
Also I would love to play a singleton Island but after all upgrades I have no $$$ for a proper manabase... I think it's too optimistic with only one blue fetchland
It's cool beeing in communication with other players! Helps a lot
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Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
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So, in my opinion, cards like EWit and Geist don't improve our speed, nor help us stabilize. Clique sounds great versus Affinity and Vizier combo. Also, more Qasali Pridemages sound good too to get rid of Vials and artifacts. I also play 2 Aven Mindcensors to limit CoCo and Chord, and it also helps block fliers in Affinity.
On the flip side, there are also those matches when it's a grind/value matchup. I play 2 Tireless Trackers and 3 Voice of Resurgence in main. And Flip Jace seems really good. If I can, I always try to fit in as many planeswalkers as I can into this deck (Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Nissa, Steward). My 2 cents.
The major downside, of course, is that the targeted creature has to be tapped. But it combos well with Retreat to Coralhelm.
I'm just finding Reflector Mage underwhelming in certain matchups, and too much of a win-more against Shadow decks, and only a slight deterrent against similar mirror decks.
I don't think it's a good replacement. Sure, the casting is easier but in the worst case you hit her in a Company and your opponent has no tapped creautre/you have no Revolt-trigger. Imo Fiend Hunter is even better than Deadeye Harpooner. Also I'm a huge fan of Reflector Mage.
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I'm moving from Human Knightfall to classic Knightfall and need some help - here is my current list:
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Selfess Spirit
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Reflector Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Reflector Mage
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Mirran Crusader
First of all some choice I have to explain:
Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest - obvious budget cut
2nd Temple Garden - no Canopys at my LGS... so it's budget.
3x Noble Hierarch - I didn't manage to get a 4th Hierarch... What's your opinion on the amount of manadorks? In the Humanbuild 7 was right because the curve was a little bit lower and I could play more aggro with a Champion of the Parsih. Intuitively I would play 7 dorks.
Voice of Resurgence - never played with the card. What is the right number to play here? Some posts earlier somebody stated that Voice is good is almost every matchup. I share that opinion.
Reflector Mage - MVP in the humanbuild! Some classic lists play 0 other play up to 4 (split main and side). What's the forums opinion?
The sideboard is just an idea for now. In the humanbuild I had 1x Bojuka Bog but I think with ScOoze I have enough graveyardhate.
My "Maybeboard" consists of:
2nd Courser of Kruphix (main)
Eternal Witness (also in the main)
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Any tips you have? As an longtime aggro-player it's a new world playing the midrangestuff.
Thank you in advance
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
My other thinking is that Knightfall really only has one beater: Knight of the Reliquary. Occasionally Tireless Tracker. That's why Voice of Resurgence is important, IMO. We need a second/third option for a big body. In midrange matchups, it's been the Elemental that has stabilized the board and won me the game. It's obviously also great versus control.
I like using the Reflector Mage spot for a better stabilization card. One more Tireless Tracker to grow big and dig for answers. More flyers like Aven Mindcensor to break stalled boards or block versus Affinity. I don't have the perfect replacement just yet, though.
Here's my current list: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bant-knightfall-11818-modern/?cache=2018-01-25 09:55:10.300771
As an aside, I've been very inspired by an oldish list that won the GP Sao Paolo last year. I'm trying to figure out what made it successful. I've a feeling that it wins a lot through the combo on game 1, since it has 3 Retreats. Also I love how it has 3 Tireless Trackers. I'm still unsure about the Thalias though. I don't know how they work with the deck. Also the 3 Ceremonious Rejection and 3 Flashfreezes in the sideboard are ingenious. Any thoughts?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsao17/top-8-decklists-2017-08-13
Some quick suggestions after looking over your decklist:
1. I think the proper land/dork configuration is 8 dorks/22 Lands or 7 dorks/23 Lands. You're on 7/22. I would bump that up to 7/23, especially with 2x tireless tracker drawing extra lands is totally fine for you. An active Knight also helps thin your deck once you get to 3 or 4 lands.
2. I just noticed there's no Horizon Canopy. Make that your 23rd land. It's cheap now. No excuse not to have it. It's important with Knight, and always comes into play untapped.
3. 3 Scooze is a lot. It's not as good in this deck as it is in decks like jund. I would just play 1. or 0.
4. I would trim a qasali pridemage down to 1. I don't really like the card, but some people swear by it. It's a personal preference I guess. I would go up to 3 VoR though.
5. I would cut Vendilion Clique completely. It's semi-hard to cast and not always great, so I eventually moved mine to the sideboard. And then once it was there, I realized it's not very impactful so I didn't think it was worth a SB slot either.
That's about it. SB looks fine. I would personally try and add another Unified Will or 2x Negate, but it's personal preference. Good Luck!
Hitting a CoCo with two dorks in the Humanlist was ok because they were pumping your champion/Lieutenant. Never saw it like you said with the Voice! I just orginized a second Voice for todays FNM!
I also like the Negate in the main. How does it work out for you?
Thalia is a good card! Would definitely try it - the question is what to cut?
1. Thank your for the input! Yesterday I played a few games and had often the problem with flooding or starting with 5 lands out of my 7 - on 23 lands. Today I will try 22 lands. Maybe I can get my hands on the 4th Hierarch.
2. Yeah I'm totally with you! It's the next thing on the shopping list!
3. The main reason for now is that I have no good other 2 drops. The 2nd Voice is missing and I don't know what else I could play. I get the 2nd Voice this evening so I will cut 1x Ooze or 1x Spirit.
4. See 3.
5. The casting cost seem hard but I hope the Clique is good against combo wich we have a lot in our LGS.
Also I added 2 Negate to the sideboard and cut the Rhox War Monk - I hope Blessed Alliance is good enough against burn!
I will post my results in the next week
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Round 1 (2-1)
Opponent was on Delver/Docent of Perfection/Thing in Ice, 2-1. I thought he was playing some Delver deck with Thing in Ice, so I didn't side in all my removal at first (Blessed Alliance), but he played Docent of Perfection on Game 2 and got to flip it. Such a terrifying card if it sticks on the board. I hadn't figured my sideboard before this night, so I left 2 Reflector Mages that I wanted to eventually take out. These Reflector Mages were so good versus Thing in Ice, and helped me win Game 3. I'm still iffy about Reflector Mages though.
Round 2, (2-1)
Opponent was on Smallpox. I kept a hand on Game 1 with one land and two Noble Hierarchs. He Pushed my dorks, and Smallpoxed to victory. Second game I sided in Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and I managed to play it on turn 4, avoiding Thoughtseizes. I could use my Soldier tokens to protect my other creatures from Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil, and flew over to destroy his planeswalkers (LotV and Gideon, AoZ). One lesson I learned was when he smallpoxed me and I had a hand of one CoCo and one Negate, I discarded Negate, forgetting that I also had to sacrifice a land and would likely never be able to play the CoCo I kept. Should've kept the Negate.
Round 3 (0-2)
Opponent was playing Abzan. Game 1, I mulliganed to 6 with a land and a dork. Scryed a creature to bottom. He killed my dork and I never drew a land. Second game, I had a land heavy hand with Spell Queller and CoCo. He thoughtseized both cards, and I flooded out. I'm just disappointed that I didn't get a chance to play Game 1 due to the no land draw.
Round 4, (2-0)
Opponent was on UG Merfolk. I drew a lot of answers in form of Paths and Spell Quellers and CoCo, and his hands were slow. Silvergill Adept looked good when played.
All in all, I only played against one deck that's in the meta (Abzan Midrange) and I lost against it, so I'm not sure what to feel. The Abzan player did go on to 4-0, beating a Grixis Death Shadow deck. I do have a hard time versus BG Midrange decks though, about 40/60, so I'm thinking of ways of improving. I might add to the sideboard Thrun, the Last Troll, 2 Eternal Witness, and another planeswalker in addition to Elspeth---maybe Nissa, Vital Force, as an experiment.
This is the first time I've played with 3 Phyrexian Revokers, and they felt really good. I like having this answer to Devoted Druids and planeswalkers (Karn, etc) in my deck. Looking at recent Abzan lists, I do want to include more planewalkers in my deck for value. I like Retreat to Coralhem, partly because they are still useful by themselves, but I think this is a mistake in rationalization. They just aren't useful enough. I might try taking them out and slotting in either 2 Eternal Witnesses or 2 Nissa, Steward of Elements in the main deck.
I'm contemplating this list for now: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bant-knightfall-12718-modern/
Here is the list I played, I managed to get a 2nd Voice:
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfess Spirit
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Reflector Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Negate
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reflector Mage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Mirran Crusader
Tested some games against a friend on GW Hatebears wich was a favorable matchup due our awesome airforce.
Round 1 vs. Thing Ascencsion 1-2
Game one he managed to get into the combo and milled me. Game two I kept a hand with 3 counterspells and drew the 4th counter and some Spell Quellers. Game three I had no removal for Thing in the Ice.
Round 2 vs. Saheeli Combo 0-2
Game one he stalled the board with Wall of Omens and had enough removal for my airforce. Game two I honestly threw away because I was in full-tilt-mode. Super unpleasant opponent and I just wanted to get out of the Shop to calm down and get some fresh air.
Round 3 vs. GW Hatebears 2-1
Played against my friend. Game one I screwed up one combat step and forgot about Leonin Arbiter. Game two and three he I had all Spell Quellers in the world wich where too many to handle.
Round 4 vs. ???
No one showed up and I playtested again with my buddy because he had a bye.
Deck felt really good. It's hard to tell if a hand is keepable or not - time will tell. I think I could win the Ascencsion match but didn't know when to play Spell Queller exactly. Also the 2nd game vs Saheeli he resolved a Sun Titan and I could have eat two removal from his graveyard... but I let Sun Titan resolve due to super-tilt - I know it should never happen... working on it.
Things I will change:
-2 Reflector Mage, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Spellskite
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
I get why Thalia, GoT is used, but this deck sides Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Can anyone explain how this Thalia can be useful in the sideboard?
Any Budget concerns are acceptable. Magic is retardedly expensive compared to most games so I understand if you are making cuts and considerations because of it.
Voice of Resurgence is a weird. It deters opponents from interacting with it and you on your turn, thereby discouraging reactive interaction, yet it is not a proactive card. The only reason you'd want it is because of various flavors of interactive Blue and Black decks. The X/X body is leaves behind is nice, but Voice has to die in order for you take advantage of it, and if your board is huge then a huge voice is not necessarily winning you the game unless your board is a bunch of misfits creatures. That being said, it is still an amazing creature and helps you stabilize the board against aggressive decks and is a HUGE pain to deal with as blue decks. In this current meta, Voice is an excellent inclusion to the deck at around 2-3 copies.
Reflector Mage will always be a good card regardless of the style of deck. Yes it's great when your deck geared towards killing your opponent really fast, but it also halts aggression and board development. "Classic Knightfall" is a big midrange tempo deck and being able to disrupt your opponents rhythm, stymie their board development, and deny their aggression is a powerful tool. Our goldfish (outside of the combo) is pathetic lol. You really want to spend your time developing your board WHILST denying your opponent from doing what they want to do. In conjunction with a Knight of the Reliquary, suddenly your 2/3s are like 3/4s or 4/5s while they're trying to get back into the game. The only times Reflector Mage sucks is when you have no follow up (basically no power cards) but that has nothing to do with the card, so much you just didn't have gas lol. Also, this deck just has no good VIABLE removal aside from Path to Exile, so having a creature act as pseudo removal or you can just cast/get off coco to attack is nice. Yes it's a 2/3, but it's what we got yenno
Courser is great, but it really depends on what your goals are with it.
Eternal Witness also falls into that description but is a bit more flexible so if you want it, put it in lol
BFT... lol no
Elspeth is excellent if you get into insane board stalls or you're playing Geist of Saint Traft, but currently the meta is unforgiving for her and as much as I hate to say it, you shouldn't play her unless you know what's in the room. (She's my favorite planeswalker </3)
Gideon on the other hand is excellent because the stream of bodies are much more relevant than elspeths (2/2 vs. 1/1), it's a 5/5, and most importantly, it's anthem is so powerful against Jeskai.
It's awkward trying to conceptualize this deck as a midrange deck because things aren't as apparent as other midrange decks, but basically the way you build midrange decks are with Disruption, Aggression (a strong clock), Flexible Utility, and Card Advantage. You're trying to deny what your opponent is doing with disruption and flexible utility whilst killing them with an indomitable board state (ex. 3 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, 2 7/7 Death's Shadows, etc.), or an insurmountable card advantage (pro tip: if you have more stuff than your opponent, unless they can come up with lethal, you're going to win lol xD).
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of The Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Unified Will
1 Negate
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Stony Silence
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Reflector Mage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
R1 - G Tron - 0x2
Pretty much nothing I could do. Mulled to 6 on the draw, kept a hand with a ghost quarter and no mana dork. The guy went T1 mine map, T2 power plant,i blew up one of his lands, he searched for the other with the map, and next turn played sylvan scrying with the forest he got from GQ. T4 Karn, killed with 2 creatures from CoCo, Turn 5 Ulamog exiling both creatures, Turn 6 Ugin and I conceded. The next game was pretty much the same, I had an Unified Will but he just got a lot of threats in hand.
R2 - Skred - 2x0
A friend of ours plays a quite unusual skred list, with Ensnaring Bridges and Chandra ToD in addition to Koth. G1 he played two bridges and got me 2 life. My courser recovered some of my life, and I had both my tireless trackers and a KotR making me draw cards every turn. Eventually I drew my qasali and my witness and blew both bridges. G2 he played t3 blood moon and I had turn 3 Rec Sage. Turns 4 and 5 I played two KotR. He popped a relic to make my knights 2/2 and tried anger of the gods on the following turn, but I had played a GQ and grew my knights to 4/4s. He showed 3 more angers in hand and conceded.
R3 - Eldrazi Tron - 2x0
He did not play any Smashers on these games. Two Thought-Knot Seers, but my voices are pretty nice blockers for those =)
Both games I won hitting with spell quellers, and the only thing that scared me was All is Dust, but I kept Unified Will in hand to counter that.
R4 - BG Midrange - 2x0
All the value my creatures give were too much for him to handle. Both grindy games, but not that hard.
Now, even with a dork in play, if the other creature gets pushed, all we have is a dork on board.
My current solution, which I'll be testing, is thus: play Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. This Nissa is faster than Nissa, Steward of Elements, because Steward needs to activate it's +2 at turn 3 to be useable on turn 4. Voice of Zendikar gives me a blocker immediately, a body to pump up the Elemental Token. More importantly, it pumps up my mana dorks. Bird of Paradise can now block Spirit tokens at 1/2, and attack for some damage.
I know this is an outside the box idea, but I'd like to hear your thoughts before I put this into action. Thanks!
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitesail Freebooter
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Voice of Resurgence
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tireless Tracker
Spells (10)
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Worship
Kind of an interesting list.. Relying on Black creature-based disruption in the main and Thoughtseize/Brutality post board. Assuming he was heavily metagaming towards Storm/Tron while still leveraging the strength of Company/KOTR/Tracker vs. Shadow decks.
Looks pretty cool! Do you know which place Kelvin ended?
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
He had a pretty poor run, closing at 8-8. Judging by Mengucci's article on CFB it doesn't seem like he was particaurly happy with his deck choice for Modern.
Game 1 vs UW Control
My hands were good. But as you can see from my list, I've changed my deck to be more consistent. Less generic lands like Ghost Quarter and Kessig Wolf Run, and instead Sunpetal Grove. This may be a small sample size, but I've had too many games with two lands including a Ghost Quarter. This list is so gold card heavy, that often I can't play cards at all with generic land opening hands (Voice of Resurgence, Qasali Pridemage, etc.). Match 1, I got Courser of Kruphix and Tireless Tracker out fast. I just played more creatures than he could handle, Spell Quellering a Supreme Verdict. Match 2, he bounced my Nissa, Steward of the Elements back to my hand with Cryptic Command, but I played her next turn for her ultimate. Won 2-0.
Game 2 vs BR Demon
This deck played Master of Cruelties and I had a slow opening hand with 2 lands for a while. I didn't read Master of Cruelties closely, and blocked using a 5/5 Knight, but first strike and deathtouch meant the Knight died. I chumped all my creatures, and he had Lightning Bolt in his hand if my life total went below 4. I scooped. Next 2 games, I had much better lands. Also, opponent's deck is very draw dependent. Won 2-1.
Game 3 vs UR Through the Breach
I consider myself fairly inexperienced. I only play paper Magic, and although I've heard of these cards, I've yet to play against a lot of archetypes. I mistakenly identified opponent's deck as UR Control with maybe Pyromancer. He played Bolts, Serums, Snapcaster. I won match 1 with creatures and he had very little. Match 2, he countered and bounced my guys with Remand, etc., while beating me down with a single Snapcaster. Then he Through the Breached an Inferno Titan, which I didn't see coming, and killed me. Match 3, I still didn't identify the main threat of Through the Breach. I think I had a Unified Will in hand, but I didn't board all my counterspells in. While tapped out, he Through the Breached a Emrakul. Lost 1-2.
Game 4 vs UW Control with Azcanta and Field of Ruin
I won first match just because he couldn't draw land. Second match, I felt good getting a Nissa out on turn 3, but she got Detention Sphered. Eventually, opponent Field of Ruined my blue sources and I have no basic Islands in my list. I'm going to include an Island in my deck from now on. I couldn't play Spell Quellers. He killed me with Colonnades while my defences were down. Match 3, I identified how important it was to keep him off Azcanta flip. That card is just such card advantage that I think they pretty much win the game. I managed to slow him down with a Bojuka Bog I sided in. Then the next time, I tried to Qasali Pridemage, but he countered it. This was one mistake. I played a Knight, then a Qasali. I should've identified the importance of Qasali, and played Qasali first, leaving enough mana to avoid the Logic Knot or Mana Leak, etc. Eventually he got Field of Ruined my blue sources, played Gideon Jura, and Big Elspeth, so I conceded. Also, both games, he Miracled a Terminus to really slow me down.
Nissa overperformed. So did Courser of Kruphix. Having Kessig Wolf Run or Ghost Quarter might have given me more outs, but I really like mana consistency in my deck. I have to think about it. I'm experimenting a bit. I brought in Nissa, Vital Force from my sideboard and managed to play her once, but she couldn't really save me at that point. Not sure how good she is. I need something that just stabilizes the board at 5 or 6 cost.
Unfortunately there's no GP Lyon for me... but I'm goning to a, I think, 50+ player event. Played some games with Bant Knightfall and took some extra money to upgrade my deck - here is the current list:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfess Spirit
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Tireless Tracker
3x Reflector Mage
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Negate
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Kitchen Finnks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
Maybeboard consists of a 3rd Voice of Resurgence, 1x Spellskite, 2nd Tireless Tracker, 2x Courser of Kruphix, 1x Vendillion Clique.
I except a lot of Pyromancer decks and a lot of UWx...
Last FNM I finished only 2-2 winning against GW Stompy and Storm / losing to UR Pyromancer and Soulflayer. The creature Matchup felt pretty good, especially with 3 copies of Reflector Mage (thank you @Dejadal). Storm was also ok. A resolved Eidolon is game. Lil Thalia felt always good - even in the GW Stompy game I was able to cut him off Dromoka's Command and Path.
In the Soulflayer Match I held a bad hand with one mana and two Birds in game one. Game two was close and I'm not sure if Scavenging Ooze is enough... that's why I want to have a Bojuka Bog - What do you think?
In the UR Pyromancer games I held slow hands (no one drop, some 2/3 drops) and he denials everything I do. Game two he played Blood Moon and had Countermagic for days. Playing against any kind of blue decks is somehow a big problem for me...
Also I would love to play a singleton Island but after all upgrades I have no $$$ for a proper manabase... I think it's too optimistic with only one blue fetchland
It's cool beeing in communication with other players! Helps a lot
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver