So I absolutely hate Tireless Tracker. It is always too slow to generate any amount of value. People always say it is great for midrange, but we are already positioned well against midrange. I really want to run something else, anyone have any suggestions? Part of me just wants to go back to Courser.
Anyone else is going to test Shapers' Sanctuary in the sideboard for grindy match-ups ? The card looks fantastic for only 1 Mana. Too bad it's not a very good topdeck and isn't a company hit, but it seems very hard to beat for GBx, GDS, Ux control, etc.
I opened two of them at prerelease, been very tempted to slot them in.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
I don't think that shaper's sanctuary is what this deck wants. I like it more in decks like infect, that can chain multiple protection spells and can use the draw trigger to get even more protection.
I finally got around to playing Bant Humans and, well, I won't be playing traditional Knightfall for the next while. The deck cuts a little bit of the midrange grind (like lifegain) for a lot more aggression. Essentially, instead of playing powerful answers (like Scavenging ooze for yards), the deck plays cards that buy time (like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Reflector mage). This time is used to make your opponets lifetotal low with your Champion of the parish before they do much of anything. This increase in aggression helps out stupendously. Tonight, I managed to out aggro elves (something I could pretty much never do with knightfall).
Let's break it down a little further. Modern is a format where you kinda need some way to goldfish. Humans can do that a little better than knightfall. The deck, by it's nature, is a bit more linear. Of course, this opens the deck up to a little more hate (namely Anger of the Gods), but, typically, you're still going to win the too deck war.
So, it seems that I'm going to be on it for the next while.
I finally got around to playing Bant Humans and, well, I won't be playing traditional Knightfall for the next while. The deck cuts a little bit of the midrange grind (like lifegain) for a lot more aggression. Essentially, instead of playing powerful answers (like Scavenging ooze for yards), the deck plays cards that buy time (like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Reflector mage). This time is used to make your opponets lifetotal low with your Champion of the parish before they do much of anything. This increase in aggression helps out stupendously. Tonight, I managed to out aggro elves (something I could pretty much never do with knightfall).
Let's break it down a little further. Modern is a format where you kinda need some way to goldfish. Humans can do that a little better than knightfall. The deck, by it's nature, is a bit more linear. Of course, this opens the deck up to a little more hate (namely Anger of the Gods), but, typically, you're still going to win the too deck war.
So, it seems that I'm going to be on it for the next while.
Agreed, and Anger of the Gods isn't necessarily that good against us because we can often get Champion of the Parish / Knight of the Reliquary to 4/4 before they get to cast it, and we usually run Burrenton Forge-Tender. I have to reiterate my belief that this is the best build of the deck at present. It's somewhat linear but not overly so. The deck still has serious play to it with cards like Unified Will. Case in point, I'm 9-0 with it at my LGS over three weeks.
Went 3-1 at a 19 person fnm, missing my 5th fatal push. 😞
Round 1 vs. Bant Spirits. He plays noble hierarch into turn 2 Geist of saint traft. I block with knight of the reliquary to trade, but he has a bunch of spirits and I have only selfless spirit. I go for spell queller on his path to exile, but he thinks and plays his own queller. I scoop immediately. 7 lands in play and 4 fetches in the graveyard is rarely a recipe for success with triple bop. In the next one, I collected company to see 5 lands and path to exile. Damn, I needed that card. The next company hits selfless spirit and noble hierarch. His hits spell queller and selfless spirit and he already had an airforce to go through my Selfless Spirit and a vendilion clique. Rough start to an fnm. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. Eternal Command. He was never really in the 2 games. In the first game, I got Knight of the Reliquary and Retreat to Coralhelm on turn 4 after some mana dudes got busted. Knight was a 4/4 by this time. I took it slowly in case he had Cryptic Command. I end up getting chumped a bit, but then Spell Queller the Cryptic Command. The sad part is that after he had 0 cards, a topdecked Cryptic Command would have allowed him to tap creatures and attack me to 1-2 life with Tarmogoyf when he had no reason to do so. The next game was ugly. I play Knight of the Reliquary after some creatures die as a 3/3, but with Flooded Strand in play. He gets Scooze and eats a land, but I untap and have him potentially large again, while casting another. The following turn, I drew another Knight and played it. He scooped to that, saying that he couldn't even beat 1. Also the 2nd Knight fetched Bojuka Bog in response to Eternal Witness, also limiting his Goyf. Rough beats for him, although I feel that this deck has a good matchup vs. E Command. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver. I mull to 5 cards, but he has no early game and a pair of queller get me there. I still have company as my final card. The next one is rough for him. He burns mana dorks again, but knight is big, I have voice in the late game too and it is too much. He shows me that he was delver, basically playing the long game because he couldn't find early threats. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Titanshift. We drove together and he scooped to me, but we play for fun. I get a 4/4 Knight of the Reliquary into Retreat to Coralhelm and the rest is history. In the next game, he has not much gas. He gets Prime Time, but I draw Retreat to Coralhelm again and it's now over. Had to play around a potential Bolt though. 2-0.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Basically, keep in mind that Walking Ballista is a threat, try to be ready for All is dust, and realize that we are the aggressive deck (they're not very good at killing us too quickly). They're fairly threat light so Path to Exile, Reflector Mage and a large swinging Knight of the Reliquary ends the game quickly.
Anyone who is playing the Bant humans list, can you post your sideboard please?
I seem to struggle against a lot of removal. Is heroic intervention worth consideration? I also haven't played Dredge yet, but wondering whether Grafdigger's cage is a better call than bojuka bog?
I seem to struggle against a lot of removal. Is heroic intervention worth consideration? I also haven't played Dredge yet, but wondering whether Grafdigger's cage is a better call than bojuka bog?
Grafdigger's Cage can't be played in a Collected Company deck. It makes CoCo into a look at 6 cards, then put then at the bottom of your library in any order card for 3G.
I think if you struggle vs. removal, Selfless Spirit, Voice of Resurgence, Tireless Tracker, and Courser of Kruphix all can do the job. Hold on, that's mostly for Knightfall. For Humans, Sin Collector is a beast at getting rid of removal. Or they use it on a Sin Collector. I think you just need a quick enough clock to tempo the removal spells with 1 mana to 2 mana creatures. But in the end, removal is always going to be good against a deck like this. (I personally came to the realization a week ago, despite never playing against these cards yet, that Torpor Orb effects and Blood Moon also seems very good against Humans, while not even all that good against Knightfall. Interesting revelation I had...
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Ha. Good point... wasn't thinking. Will stick with Bojuka Bog for now and see how I get on
Don't forget. You have Scavenging Ooze as well. Graveyard hate is tough to play in our deck because universal grave hate hurts Knight of the Reliquary.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Anyone who is playing the Bant humans list, can you post your sideboard please?
I seem to struggle against a lot of removal. Is heroic intervention worth consideration? I also haven't played Dredge yet, but wondering whether Grafdigger's cage is a better call than bojuka bog?
Firstly are you straight Bant? I guess if you’re posting in the Knightfall forum you are Bant with a red splash for the Kessig Wolf Run finisher, but maybe not?
If you have the red splash then the most commonly played red Humans are Izzet Staticaster to zap mana dorks, elves and affinity creatures and Vithian Renegades for artifact destruction you can hit off a Collected Company. If you splash black then you have Kambal and Sin Collector as your two sideboard options for disrupting combo decks or snatching key spells (such as removal). In straight Bant you don’t have those options, so maybe consider something like Selfless Spirit for removal, as you can play it early and hit it off a Collected Company.
Personally I think it has to be a very powerful card or an obvious weakness to include a non-creature spell as it reduces the powerfulness of our Collected Company hits, and to a lesser degree if it is a non-human card for the synergies we run.
Stony Silence is the obvious choice as a non-creature sideboard card, it’s the best effect against a well-established powerful deck like Affinity. Scape/Titanshift demands similar respect for me, so Negate/Flashfreeze/Unified Will are necessary for my sideboard.
Burn can be a tricky match in my eyes, if they hit their Searing Blaze/Blood effects they can really slow your early turns down and leave you playing catchup, but a timely 2 mana Thalia into 3 mana Thalia or a Sin Collector or Kambal swings things back in our favour. Something like Auriok Champion is a fine sideboard card, but people also run Burrenton Forge Tender to provide broader utility in other matches where the lifegain is less important but preventing a key source of red damage is.
As has been pointed out, any graveyard/non-cast creature hate has to be one sided as it neutralises our Knights and CoCos. I don’t run any as I find Path to Exile and Reflector Mage enough against Dredge, backed up by 2 and 3 mana Thalia to add a bit more disruption.
My personal sideboard inclusion is 3x Spell Queller. So much of Modern, Tron aside, relies on spells that cost 4 mana or less, and Spell Queller is great disruption in this case. Combo pieces in Storm, Anger/Damnation/Push/Path, Vizier combo creatures, opponent’s CoCo, Merfolk lords etc etc etc. You can usually get the first one in for free as they assume you won’t be running them in Humans, and you can bluff it in the future alongside mana for a Path to Exile or Collected Company, which ensures you don’t waste turns hoping they play something you want to Queller. I really like it when you have a board out already but don’t want to commit your second wave of creatures into an Anger or Verdict. Plus in a ground stall a 2/3 flyer with an exalted trigger or 2 is pretty handy.
Thanks for your response. Sorry, should've specified: I'm running a Bant list with a single red splash for Kessig, as you suggested. I don't have a black splash, but thanks for the suggestions.
How have you found staticaster working out? Any trouble casting it due to colours? I may look into it as a possible option. The meta is quite varied out my FNM but no Affinity and I'm the only one that runs Vizier Company....
I may try a couple of Selfless Spirit too. Without a decent tutor (I.e Chord) I think the chances of hitting a single from the sideboard are pretty slim, and don't think it is worth having more than 1-2... thoughts?
I'm hoping that Auriok Champion and Thalia can do enough to stall the burn match up, along with Blessed Alliance. But I might invest in some Spell Quellers.... would you favour these over Unified Will?
Any other major problem match ups people are facing?
Can you post your list and some match results please?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
Thanks for your response. Sorry, should've specified: I'm running a Bant list with a single red splash for Kessig, as you suggested. I don't have a black splash, but thanks for the suggestions.
How have you found staticaster working out? Any trouble casting it due to colours? I may look into it as a possible option. The meta is quite varied out my FNM but no Affinity and I'm the only one that runs Vizier Company....
I may try a couple of Selfless Spirit too. Without a decent tutor (I.e Chord) I think the chances of hitting a single from the sideboard are pretty slim, and don't think it is worth having more than 1-2... thoughts?
I'm hoping that Auriok Champion and Thalia can do enough to stall the burn match up, along with Blessed Alliance. But I might invest in some Spell Quellers.... would you favour these over Unified Will?
Any other major problem match ups people are facing?
Can you post your list and some match results please?
Sorry, I'm a little confused - you're running Bant Red Humans with both the Knightfall and Vizier combos? If you read the thread a few pages back there was some discussion around having both combos in, and the dangers of drawing half of both combos etc. If you're playing both combos I definitely think you are better off in a non Humans shell, as that is three deckbuilding restraints you're imposing on yourself.
I haven't played much with Staticaster, there's only one occasional Affinity player at FNM level at my LGS, so I board it in for larger scale tournaments where some of the people from the wider area bring Affinity. I do board it in when I know the Elves players are playing though ^^
It's definitely not free to cast as it is the fourth colour in my deck, and Noble Hierarch doesn't help with it. I run 8 fetches that can get my red source and a couple of Cavern of Souls, so I consider it worth the risk.
Whatever form of Knightfall/Humans/Combo you are running it is a very creature focused deck, with the value in all cases coming from being able to stick creatures on the board for Retreat/Human synergy/Infinite mana. Your opponent will be siding in removal wherever possible to stop your board development and avoid whichever combo you are running, so I feel you need to respect that and side in some protection, whether that is counterspells or protection type effects. Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit are preferable for me as they are creatures to hit off a Collected Company, whilst also adding to your clock, but in some matches they aren't enough. I have a lot of combo-style decks in my local meta, so Negate/Unified Will are great against Storm, Ad Nauseum, Mill, Scapeshift.
I agree Thalia and Auriok Champ are fine cards against Burn, and if there is enough of it locally for you you can afford to have specific answers for it. Again, it varies for me locally, so I have Burrenton Forge Tender as I think it answers Valakut decks better, and I hate playing against Valakut decks.
My current deck is something like this, which is an evolution from Bant Black Humans to Bant Black Knightfall to Bant Red Knightfall. The sideboard is incomplete as they're my current core of cards I wouldn't change. For a big tournament I would add 2 Burrenton Forge Tender, 1 War Priest of Thune and maybe a Mirran Crusader if I expected GB decks, or a Pithing Needle.
Played Abzan Vizier Combo 1st Round. He interrupts my turn 3 Knightfall combo by sacrificing his Qasali Pridemage, so we settle into a long grindy match where I Path combo pieces and start to force chump blocks with 6/6 Knights. I eventually use a Knight to get my Kessig Wolf Run and trample through. Game 2 we end up going to time and draw, as I Quell and Path combo pieces, and Pithing Needle his Rhonas to stop any combat blowouts with all the mana he has accrued.
In > Spell Quellers, Path, Pithing Needle - trying to disrupt the combo
Out > Retreats, Mayor, E Witness - our combo is worse than theirs, they run little removal so Witness is less good
Played Merfolk 2nd round. I mull to five, keep Champion of the Parish and Noble Hierarch plus 3 lands. Draw spells for the next 6 turns, eventually my things are quite big and a Reflector Mage plus Path to Exile really evens things up.
Second game I have a quick start and my opponent does not. I play Humans every turn and he fails to find a lord to keep up.
In > Path, Queller x2 - they're a creature based deck so the fourth Path is needed, Queller gobbles up Lords
Out > Thalia, Retreat x2 - I didn't feel I needed the combo here, and on the draw Thalia is too late versus Aether Vial and Spreading Seas.
Played Elves 3rd round. We build boards but a Knight of the Reliquary keeps his creatures at bay after my turn 2 Thalia into Turn 3 Thalia really slows him down. I misplay into Ezurri mana and trade more creatures than I'd have liked, but the Knights keep on growing and eventually one tramples through.
Game 2 I focus on the Elvish Archdruids to prevent his payoff. Queller gets one early and Reflector Mage bounces another when he had his other two on board and a few mana dorks, which took him off 15 mana and his other card in hand - Emrakul
In > Path, Queller x2,Crusader x2
Out > Thalia, Retreat x2, Eternal Witness x2
Then played a friend on Storm a few times and had some great matches, including coming out from under a Blood Moon by pathing my Champion of the Parish for a basic forest end of turn, to then hit double Hierarch off of a Collected Company for the Negate I had in hand! Negate and Spell Quellers are all stars in this matchup, as is the Canonist if it doesn't get bolted, which it always does.
Great Cards
Reflector Mage - A sort of Human Spell Queller. Stops creature combo/mana generation, removes blockers, disrupts your opponent's turn, and leaves behind a 2/3 Human body? Sign me up.
Spell Queller - people don't expect it from the Humans list, and it matches up so well against high creature low removal decks like Merfolk, Vizier Combo and Elves.
Knight of the Reliquary - with the right hands she just grows out of control. I don't feel the combo is always necessary here, especially as I have Lieutenants and Mayors to pump my Knights, and if you get into a ground stall they sit on defence happily and then power up end of your turn or get trample for your attack phase.
I'm still not happy with my sideboard, as I miss the disruption of Kambal, Consul of Allocation and Sin Collector you get in Black, so any suggestions welcome. Mirran Crusader is one I always like to have in there, but does it help me all that much in the matchups I hate - Valakut and Eldrazi Tron?
I need some advice in playing the Knightfall combo I always played aggro and this is my first try on a combo deck. I'm playing a similar human-list like Wangan Midnight. Only difference i run 2x Mayor of Avabruck and 4x Path to Exile. And my Sideboard is a bit different.
If following questions were answered i'm sorry... Did not read through all 134 Pages.
1.) Setting up the combo
Only played about 20 game on paper now (only playing paper magic). When i have a hand with land, dork and the combo pieces i go all in the combo and play turn 2 the Knight and turn 3 the Retreat. I think that's the right way... ay? I know it will depend on the match up but i didn't had any issues that way. well, only against one deck which will lead me to my second point...
2.) MatchUp against Burn
Some posts earlier it was discussed what i can do against this match up. My experience showed that my opponent (played against a really, really good burn player!) always went for the controly plan by bolting my birds and remove my threads at all. The only time i could steal a win was going into the combo turn 3 when he was tapped out.
3.) Going into the Combo?!
When is the time right for a combo kill? If my opponent has untapped lands, a white source for e.g., i have to assume he has a Path to Exile. What can i do? If I go into the combo I will lose a lot of life, lands and in the worst case my huge Knight
4.) How possible is it to fail the combo?
Can you hit not enough lands? if your lifetotal is low it's obvious to fail but otherwise?
5.) The Mirror
Any advice for the Mirror? Would you board the combo out or is it a race "who can combo off first"?
It's my first take on a combo deck and it's a nice way to win games but as you can read i'm pretty unfamiliar with the whole combo thing for the moment.
Thank you for your help in advance!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
I need some advice in playing the Knightfall combo I always played aggro and this is my first try on a combo deck. I'm playing a similar human-list like Wangan Midnight. Only difference i run 2x Mayor of Avabruck and 4x Path to Exile. And my Sideboard is a bit different.
I would agree that 4 Path and 2 Mayor is the correct choice normally, my local meta is a lot of non-creature decks so I keep the 4th in the sideboard. For the PPTQ I'm attending this week I'll run 4 Path main.
If you're playing Human Knightfall, remember that you're a perfectly serviceable creature deck most of the time. I view the combo as a nice bonus, but I win more often off of a Turn 1 Champion of the Parish into more humans to present a clock that other Humans take on later in the game.
I'm not expert with this deck, I came to it from straight 4 Colour Humans, but personally;
1) You're right to force the combo early on, make them have something like Path early on or snatch a win.
2) But you're right, it depends on the matchup. I think the Burn matchup is one where you have to try and avoid helping them reduce your life total. If you can get a Knight to a 6/6 or so then you're pretty much sorted for a wall that survives a Goblin Guide + Bolt type combo, but you can use your Retreats defensively - like cracking a fetch on your opponent's turn to tap down one of their creatures before combat. I personally board out the Retreats and bring in whatever anti-red card I have in my sideboard - Burrenton Forge Tender, Auriok Champion, Kor Firewalker etc. Bant Black lists get Sin Collector and Kambal, Consul of Allocation which I'd board into as well.
3) Try and evaluate how important it is that you combo off there and then. If you are ahead then you might not need to, and your opponent might let you hit them for 4/5 damage for free. If you are really behind then you've just got to go for it. There is also the utility of trading life for thinning your deck of lands, so if you have your 4/5 lands then it might be helpful to thin a few lands out of your deck to help you draw more gas.
4) In my experience it is your life total or getting yourself to a dead-end by not being able to sacrifice a forest or plains to the Knight's ability. If you are comboing off, make a mental note of what fetches you have left and the Plains/Forests you can fetch from them so you don't search up a fetch that can't fetch .
5) If you have the disruption in your sideboard then you might be able to cut it, but I feel we gain an edge but having synergy in our deck versus traditional builds which may have more individual utility, but no overall synergy, so we can keep it in as a nice bonus, and in a straight fight I think we have the better creatures. You can catch up in the combo race with a Reflector Mage or Meddling Mage to disrupt them if needed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I opened two of them at prerelease, been very tempted to slot them in.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
L: Maverick
Let's break it down a little further. Modern is a format where you kinda need some way to goldfish. Humans can do that a little better than knightfall. The deck, by it's nature, is a bit more linear. Of course, this opens the deck up to a little more hate (namely Anger of the Gods), but, typically, you're still going to win the too deck war.
So, it seems that I'm going to be on it for the next while.
Agreed, and Anger of the Gods isn't necessarily that good against us because we can often get Champion of the Parish / Knight of the Reliquary to 4/4 before they get to cast it, and we usually run Burrenton Forge-Tender. I have to reiterate my belief that this is the best build of the deck at present. It's somewhat linear but not overly so. The deck still has serious play to it with cards like Unified Will. Case in point, I'm 9-0 with it at my LGS over three weeks.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Round 1 vs. Bant Spirits. He plays noble hierarch into turn 2 Geist of saint traft. I block with knight of the reliquary to trade, but he has a bunch of spirits and I have only selfless spirit. I go for spell queller on his path to exile, but he thinks and plays his own queller. I scoop immediately. 7 lands in play and 4 fetches in the graveyard is rarely a recipe for success with triple bop. In the next one, I collected company to see 5 lands and path to exile. Damn, I needed that card. The next company hits selfless spirit and noble hierarch. His hits spell queller and selfless spirit and he already had an airforce to go through my Selfless Spirit and a vendilion clique. Rough start to an fnm. 0-2.
Round 2 vs. Eternal Command. He was never really in the 2 games. In the first game, I got Knight of the Reliquary and Retreat to Coralhelm on turn 4 after some mana dudes got busted. Knight was a 4/4 by this time. I took it slowly in case he had Cryptic Command. I end up getting chumped a bit, but then Spell Queller the Cryptic Command. The sad part is that after he had 0 cards, a topdecked Cryptic Command would have allowed him to tap creatures and attack me to 1-2 life with Tarmogoyf when he had no reason to do so. The next game was ugly. I play Knight of the Reliquary after some creatures die as a 3/3, but with Flooded Strand in play. He gets Scooze and eats a land, but I untap and have him potentially large again, while casting another. The following turn, I drew another Knight and played it. He scooped to that, saying that he couldn't even beat 1. Also the 2nd Knight fetched Bojuka Bog in response to Eternal Witness, also limiting his Goyf. Rough beats for him, although I feel that this deck has a good matchup vs. E Command. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver. I mull to 5 cards, but he has no early game and a pair of queller get me there. I still have company as my final card. The next one is rough for him. He burns mana dorks again, but knight is big, I have voice in the late game too and it is too much. He shows me that he was delver, basically playing the long game because he couldn't find early threats. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Titanshift. We drove together and he scooped to me, but we play for fun. I get a 4/4 Knight of the Reliquary into Retreat to Coralhelm and the rest is history. In the next game, he has not much gas. He gets Prime Time, but I draw Retreat to Coralhelm again and it's now over. Had to play around a potential Bolt though. 2-0.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Bring in Tireless tracker, Unified Will, Reflector Mage, whatever artifact hate, and generally Grindy cards (Nissa, Steward of Elements)
Basically, keep in mind that Walking Ballista is a threat, try to be ready for All is dust, and realize that we are the aggressive deck (they're not very good at killing us too quickly). They're fairly threat light so Path to Exile, Reflector Mage and a large swinging Knight of the Reliquary ends the game quickly.
I seem to struggle against a lot of removal. Is heroic intervention worth consideration? I also haven't played Dredge yet, but wondering whether Grafdigger's cage is a better call than bojuka bog?
Mine is as follows:
2 auriok champion
1 dusk/dawn
3 unified will
2 blessed alliance
1 qasali preidemage
1 bojuka bog
2 stony silence
2 meddling Mage
1 ehtersworn canonist
Welcome everyone's feedback
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Grafdigger's Cage can't be played in a Collected Company deck. It makes CoCo into a look at 6 cards, then put then at the bottom of your library in any order card for 3G.
I think if you struggle vs. removal, Selfless Spirit, Voice of Resurgence, Tireless Tracker, and Courser of Kruphix all can do the job. Hold on, that's mostly for Knightfall. For Humans, Sin Collector is a beast at getting rid of removal. Or they use it on a Sin Collector. I think you just need a quick enough clock to tempo the removal spells with 1 mana to 2 mana creatures. But in the end, removal is always going to be good against a deck like this. (I personally came to the realization a week ago, despite never playing against these cards yet, that Torpor Orb effects and Blood Moon also seems very good against Humans, while not even all that good against Knightfall. Interesting revelation I had...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Don't forget. You have Scavenging Ooze as well. Graveyard hate is tough to play in our deck because universal grave hate hurts Knight of the Reliquary.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Firstly are you straight Bant? I guess if you’re posting in the Knightfall forum you are Bant with a red splash for the Kessig Wolf Run finisher, but maybe not?
If you have the red splash then the most commonly played red Humans are Izzet Staticaster to zap mana dorks, elves and affinity creatures and Vithian Renegades for artifact destruction you can hit off a Collected Company. If you splash black then you have Kambal and Sin Collector as your two sideboard options for disrupting combo decks or snatching key spells (such as removal). In straight Bant you don’t have those options, so maybe consider something like Selfless Spirit for removal, as you can play it early and hit it off a Collected Company.
Personally I think it has to be a very powerful card or an obvious weakness to include a non-creature spell as it reduces the powerfulness of our Collected Company hits, and to a lesser degree if it is a non-human card for the synergies we run.
Stony Silence is the obvious choice as a non-creature sideboard card, it’s the best effect against a well-established powerful deck like Affinity. Scape/Titanshift demands similar respect for me, so Negate/Flashfreeze/Unified Will are necessary for my sideboard.
Burn can be a tricky match in my eyes, if they hit their Searing Blaze/Blood effects they can really slow your early turns down and leave you playing catchup, but a timely 2 mana Thalia into 3 mana Thalia or a Sin Collector or Kambal swings things back in our favour. Something like Auriok Champion is a fine sideboard card, but people also run Burrenton Forge Tender to provide broader utility in other matches where the lifegain is less important but preventing a key source of red damage is.
As has been pointed out, any graveyard/non-cast creature hate has to be one sided as it neutralises our Knights and CoCos. I don’t run any as I find Path to Exile and Reflector Mage enough against Dredge, backed up by 2 and 3 mana Thalia to add a bit more disruption.
My personal sideboard inclusion is 3x Spell Queller. So much of Modern, Tron aside, relies on spells that cost 4 mana or less, and Spell Queller is great disruption in this case. Combo pieces in Storm, Anger/Damnation/Push/Path, Vizier combo creatures, opponent’s CoCo, Merfolk lords etc etc etc. You can usually get the first one in for free as they assume you won’t be running them in Humans, and you can bluff it in the future alongside mana for a Path to Exile or Collected Company, which ensures you don’t waste turns hoping they play something you want to Queller. I really like it when you have a board out already but don’t want to commit your second wave of creatures into an Anger or Verdict. Plus in a ground stall a 2/3 flyer with an exalted trigger or 2 is pretty handy.
How have you found staticaster working out? Any trouble casting it due to colours? I may look into it as a possible option. The meta is quite varied out my FNM but no Affinity and I'm the only one that runs Vizier Company....
I may try a couple of Selfless Spirit too. Without a decent tutor (I.e Chord) I think the chances of hitting a single from the sideboard are pretty slim, and don't think it is worth having more than 1-2... thoughts?
I'm hoping that Auriok Champion and Thalia can do enough to stall the burn match up, along with Blessed Alliance. But I might invest in some Spell Quellers.... would you favour these over Unified Will?
Any other major problem match ups people are facing?
Can you post your list and some match results please?
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Sorry, I'm a little confused - you're running Bant Red Humans with both the Knightfall and Vizier combos? If you read the thread a few pages back there was some discussion around having both combos in, and the dangers of drawing half of both combos etc. If you're playing both combos I definitely think you are better off in a non Humans shell, as that is three deckbuilding restraints you're imposing on yourself.
I haven't played much with Staticaster, there's only one occasional Affinity player at FNM level at my LGS, so I board it in for larger scale tournaments where some of the people from the wider area bring Affinity. I do board it in when I know the Elves players are playing though ^^
It's definitely not free to cast as it is the fourth colour in my deck, and Noble Hierarch doesn't help with it. I run 8 fetches that can get my red source and a couple of Cavern of Souls, so I consider it worth the risk.
Whatever form of Knightfall/Humans/Combo you are running it is a very creature focused deck, with the value in all cases coming from being able to stick creatures on the board for Retreat/Human synergy/Infinite mana. Your opponent will be siding in removal wherever possible to stop your board development and avoid whichever combo you are running, so I feel you need to respect that and side in some protection, whether that is counterspells or protection type effects. Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit are preferable for me as they are creatures to hit off a Collected Company, whilst also adding to your clock, but in some matches they aren't enough. I have a lot of combo-style decks in my local meta, so Negate/Unified Will are great against Storm, Ad Nauseum, Mill, Scapeshift.
I agree Thalia and Auriok Champ are fine cards against Burn, and if there is enough of it locally for you you can afford to have specific answers for it. Again, it varies for me locally, so I have Burrenton Forge Tender as I think it answers Valakut decks better, and I hate playing against Valakut decks.
My current deck is something like this, which is an evolution from Bant Black Humans to Bant Black Knightfall to Bant Red Knightfall. The sideboard is incomplete as they're my current core of cards I wouldn't change. For a big tournament I would add 2 Burrenton Forge Tender, 1 War Priest of Thune and maybe a Mirran Crusader if I expected GB decks, or a Pithing Needle.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Reflector Mage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Collected Company
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Spell Queller
2 Negate
1 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
2 Vithian Renegades
I took the deck to FNM last Friday and went 3-0.
Played Abzan Vizier Combo 1st Round. He interrupts my turn 3 Knightfall combo by sacrificing his Qasali Pridemage, so we settle into a long grindy match where I Path combo pieces and start to force chump blocks with 6/6 Knights. I eventually use a Knight to get my Kessig Wolf Run and trample through. Game 2 we end up going to time and draw, as I Quell and Path combo pieces, and Pithing Needle his Rhonas to stop any combat blowouts with all the mana he has accrued.
In > Spell Quellers, Path, Pithing Needle - trying to disrupt the combo
Out > Retreats, Mayor, E Witness - our combo is worse than theirs, they run little removal so Witness is less good
Played Merfolk 2nd round. I mull to five, keep Champion of the Parish and Noble Hierarch plus 3 lands. Draw spells for the next 6 turns, eventually my things are quite big and a Reflector Mage plus Path to Exile really evens things up.
Second game I have a quick start and my opponent does not. I play Humans every turn and he fails to find a lord to keep up.
In > Path, Queller x2 - they're a creature based deck so the fourth Path is needed, Queller gobbles up Lords
Out > Thalia, Retreat x2 - I didn't feel I needed the combo here, and on the draw Thalia is too late versus Aether Vial and Spreading Seas.
Played Elves 3rd round. We build boards but a Knight of the Reliquary keeps his creatures at bay after my turn 2 Thalia into Turn 3 Thalia really slows him down. I misplay into Ezurri mana and trade more creatures than I'd have liked, but the Knights keep on growing and eventually one tramples through.
Game 2 I focus on the Elvish Archdruids to prevent his payoff. Queller gets one early and Reflector Mage bounces another when he had his other two on board and a few mana dorks, which took him off 15 mana and his other card in hand - Emrakul
In > Path, Queller x2,Crusader x2
Out > Thalia, Retreat x2, Eternal Witness x2
Then played a friend on Storm a few times and had some great matches, including coming out from under a Blood Moon by pathing my Champion of the Parish for a basic forest end of turn, to then hit double Hierarch off of a Collected Company for the Negate I had in hand! Negate and Spell Quellers are all stars in this matchup, as is the Canonist if it doesn't get bolted, which it always does.
Great Cards
Reflector Mage - A sort of Human Spell Queller. Stops creature combo/mana generation, removes blockers, disrupts your opponent's turn, and leaves behind a 2/3 Human body? Sign me up.
Spell Queller - people don't expect it from the Humans list, and it matches up so well against high creature low removal decks like Merfolk, Vizier Combo and Elves.
Knight of the Reliquary - with the right hands she just grows out of control. I don't feel the combo is always necessary here, especially as I have Lieutenants and Mayors to pump my Knights, and if you get into a ground stall they sit on defence happily and then power up end of your turn or get trample for your attack phase.
I'm still not happy with my sideboard, as I miss the disruption of Kambal, Consul of Allocation and Sin Collector you get in Black, so any suggestions welcome. Mirran Crusader is one I always like to have in there, but does it help me all that much in the matchups I hate - Valakut and Eldrazi Tron?
I need some advice in playing the Knightfall combo I always played aggro and this is my first try on a combo deck. I'm playing a similar human-list like Wangan Midnight. Only difference i run 2x Mayor of Avabruck and 4x Path to Exile. And my Sideboard is a bit different.
If following questions were answered i'm sorry... Did not read through all 134 Pages.
1.) Setting up the combo
Only played about 20 game on paper now (only playing paper magic). When i have a hand with land, dork and the combo pieces i go all in the combo and play turn 2 the Knight and turn 3 the Retreat. I think that's the right way... ay? I know it will depend on the match up but i didn't had any issues that way. well, only against one deck which will lead me to my second point...
2.) MatchUp against Burn
Some posts earlier it was discussed what i can do against this match up. My experience showed that my opponent (played against a really, really good burn player!) always went for the controly plan by bolting my birds and remove my threads at all. The only time i could steal a win was going into the combo turn 3 when he was tapped out.
3.) Going into the Combo?!
When is the time right for a combo kill? If my opponent has untapped lands, a white source for e.g., i have to assume he has a Path to Exile. What can i do? If I go into the combo I will lose a lot of life, lands and in the worst case my huge Knight
4.) How possible is it to fail the combo?
Can you hit not enough lands? if your lifetotal is low it's obvious to fail but otherwise?
5.) The Mirror
Any advice for the Mirror? Would you board the combo out or is it a race "who can combo off first"?
It's my first take on a combo deck and it's a nice way to win games but as you can read i'm pretty unfamiliar with the whole combo thing for the moment.
Thank you for your help in advance!
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
I would agree that 4 Path and 2 Mayor is the correct choice normally, my local meta is a lot of non-creature decks so I keep the 4th in the sideboard. For the PPTQ I'm attending this week I'll run 4 Path main.
If you're playing Human Knightfall, remember that you're a perfectly serviceable creature deck most of the time. I view the combo as a nice bonus, but I win more often off of a Turn 1 Champion of the Parish into more humans to present a clock that other Humans take on later in the game.
I'm not expert with this deck, I came to it from straight 4 Colour Humans, but personally;
1) You're right to force the combo early on, make them have something like Path early on or snatch a win.
2) But you're right, it depends on the matchup. I think the Burn matchup is one where you have to try and avoid helping them reduce your life total. If you can get a Knight to a 6/6 or so then you're pretty much sorted for a wall that survives a Goblin Guide + Bolt type combo, but you can use your Retreats defensively - like cracking a fetch on your opponent's turn to tap down one of their creatures before combat. I personally board out the Retreats and bring in whatever anti-red card I have in my sideboard - Burrenton Forge Tender, Auriok Champion, Kor Firewalker etc. Bant Black lists get Sin Collector and Kambal, Consul of Allocation which I'd board into as well.
3) Try and evaluate how important it is that you combo off there and then. If you are ahead then you might not need to, and your opponent might let you hit them for 4/5 damage for free. If you are really behind then you've just got to go for it. There is also the utility of trading life for thinning your deck of lands, so if you have your 4/5 lands then it might be helpful to thin a few lands out of your deck to help you draw more gas.
4) In my experience it is your life total or getting yourself to a dead-end by not being able to sacrifice a forest or plains to the Knight's ability. If you are comboing off, make a mental note of what fetches you have left and the Plains/Forests you can fetch from them so you don't search up a fetch that can't fetch .
5) If you have the disruption in your sideboard then you might be able to cut it, but I feel we gain an edge but having synergy in our deck versus traditional builds which may have more individual utility, but no overall synergy, so we can keep it in as a nice bonus, and in a straight fight I think we have the better creatures. You can catch up in the combo race with a Reflector Mage or Meddling Mage to disrupt them if needed.