MTG Salvation

As someone who has played Knightfall for a long time and then switched to the Vizier version let me try to explain why Spell Queller is so prevalent in one but not the other. The key aspect is the timing of your collected companys and of Spell Queller itself. With either one in hand with Knightfall you will pass the turn and look to make the most optimal decision on how/when to play either on your opponent's turn. With the Vizier version you are almost always companying on your own turn so you can combo off (obviously with Devoted Druid in play). Therefore, having a threat like Reflector Mage allows you to still be disruptive, while main-phasing your Companies.

Quote from Dreadnaught33 »

To be honest Theory, I might test it. I think mage is there to slow down opponents so you can assemble the combo and win but perhaps queller is better utility. Anybody tested this in the counters version?

Btw, nothing beats knight even queller. Without knight, the deck doesn't exist! She was love at first sight for me.

I am still loving Queller in my weird Vizier version that still runs paths main.


It works great! Queller protects the combo and Path is good at removing threats

I recently had good results at an FNM too, although I can't remember the matches too well.
Match 1: Cheeri0s
Game 1: He combo'd off before i could do anything (0-1)
Game 2: I combo'd off (1-1)
Game 3: He tried to combo off but I was able to path his paladin only to have a sram land on the board, whats my topdeck? Path, GG (2-1)
Overall (1-0)

Match 2: Esper Control
Game 1: He disrupted my combo twice and did what esper does.
Game 2: Ditto
Overall (1-1)

Match 3: UW Control
Game 1: I did the knightfall combo for the win on turn 3
Game 2: I got ran other by elspeth tokens
Game 3: I Knightfall'd again
Overall (2-1)

Match 4: N/A
Intentional Draw.
Overall path and Queller were great as were both combos.

Quote from Witty_Banterer »

I still find the Vizier combo too fragile against creature removal. However, I've also been losing to the Vizier combo quite a bit. I'd thought Paths, Reflector Mage, and Spell Quellers would be enough to counter the combo, but I've had trouble drawing these 12 cards when needed. Has anyone had more luck against Counters Company with Bant Knightfall?

My sideboard usually is just Linvala, Keeper of Silence, and I have 1 extra Path to side in. Also, I mainboard 2 Aven Mindcensors which could theoretically slow it a bit.

Additionally, I used to play with 2 Staticasters in the side, but I found, unlike what Kelvin Chew had said in his article, that they don't help stop the combo, since Druid is 2 toughness and you can put the activation on the stack so they still have infinite mana after you kill Vizier of Remedies. (Unless I'm using Staticaster wrong?)

The key I've found is to target the Vizier of Remedies with the Staticaster if at all possible. The whole MU usually revolves around keeping them one piece away.

The problem is that a player can hold Vizier of Remedies until they have combo on the board, then play it only when Devoted Druid is no longer summoning sick. Staticaster can't stop the combo that way cause they can just put the Druid trigger on the stack and still get infinite mana that turn.

I'm trying to make Bant Knightfall more aggressive without turning into Human Knightfall, cause I like Spell Queller. To speed up the clock against combo decks, I'm trying out 4 Wild Nacatl in my mainboard, and moving Reflector Mage to the sideboard. I'm not sure if this is the best idea, but the point is to have a threat from turn 1 and so I can deal 20 damage by turn 5. I also have 2 Geist of Saint Traft. If anyone has suggestions for faster clock, it'd be appreciated.

I'm finding Knight of the Reliquary great in grindier matches, but sometimes KotR takes a couple turns to grow large enough (often times no fetches in hand).

Spell Queller is one of your best tools against combo decks, why move it to the side? What combo decks in particular are you struggling with?

How many Fetches do you run?

And yeah Geist is great for racing on an empty board, but I really don't think he's main deck material. I even took him out of my SB eventually in favor of V Clique

And if you almost never have Fetches in hand, how are you making full use of Nacatl?

I don't think having Wild Nacatls in this deck is the right way to go about attacking the devoted druid matchup. I've been playing 3 and 4 colour nacatl midrange decks for more than 2 years in modern and they're effective vs druid because you can pressure them heavily with efficient stat-sticks while keeping them off their combo pieces with a removal suite of upwards of 8 1-cmc removal spells. If you can't threaten them with something like this, they will likely still be able to consistently goldfish you faster than you can get them to 0.

I think the best way to beat devoted druid decks with traditional Knightfall is still to go from 1-3. Even on the draw, a turn 2 reflector mage on their turn 2 druid OR a turn 2 queller on their turn 3 play can buy you enough time to set up your board and draw into more disruption/removal.

All that aside, reflector mage in the current climate also seems to be a much more relevant creature.

Recently, I discovered the combo of Sakura-Tribe Scout + Retreat to Coralhelm + Bounce Land + Payoff. At first, I completely dismissed the idea of that combo being even remotely modern playable. However, after a three hour drive, I thought the combo might actually fit in Knightfall. Let me elaborate.

1. Knightfall, traditionally, struggles against some aggro decks, but mostly big mana and fast combo decks. Having two, turn three combos should greatly shore up the combo and big mana matchups while a few Courser of Kruphix help against aggro.
2. With the way that I’m currently imagining it, this new combo is relatively lightweight. The deck runs most of the same traditional Knightfall cards. My idea is to trade Birds of Paradise for Sakura-Tribe Scout, run a few more Courser of Kruphix, Tireless Tracker and Lotus Cobra as payoffs, a few more lands to make Sakura-Tribe Scout good (including Oboro, Palace in the clouds), and a full playset of Retreat to Coralhelm. Thereby, this deck isn't that far from what many Knightfall lists already run.
3. Retreat to Coralhelm has always been the worst card in Knightfall. However, with two combos based around it, Retreat to Coralhelm sucks just a tiny bit less.

Thus, I imagine the deck to play somewhat similar to Vizir Knightfall in that game one, the game plan is a little heavier on the combo plan to beat the unfair decks while games two and three, the deck can drop a few Retreat to Coralhelm to play more fair-deck cards. However, I think this list will, when tuned, be better than Vizir Knightfall because the overall quality of the cards is much higher while the combo plan seems somewhat comparable. Thus, without further ado, here's my initial attempt at a list: (See it on TappedOut)


Now, let’s talk about some of the cool things this deck can do:

1. Gain infinite life with Courser of Kruphix, infinite clues with Tireless Tracker, infinite scrys/untap/taps with two Retreat to Coralhelm, infinite mana with Lotus Cobra or two Retreat to Coralhelm and a Noble Hierarch (Yes, Noble Hierarch is part of an infinite combo).
2. This list has 13 cards with landfall on it. Thus, Sakura-Tribe Scout + Oboro, Palace in the clouds or bounce land can generate multiple clues/life/mana (aka value).
3. I love all the instant speed shenanigans knightfall has, and Sakura-Tribe Scout adds another dimension to that with the ability to play lands on your opponent's turn.
4. The deck is running four Tireless Tracker. While it is entirely possible that it should only run three, four guarantees almost every grindy matchup.

So, if I think this deck is so great, why am I sharing it? Well, to be honest, the deck is a little rough around the edges and could be tuned a bit. Hence, I want help with it. There are a few awkward things about the deck that I'd like help with:

• My biggest issue is the manabase. Sakura-Tribe Scout on paper sounds like a mana-dork, but it really isn't. It helps go from 1cmc to 3cmc, but it requires more lands. Honestly, I feel like I'm supposed to find room for one more land. However, if I bring in more lands, Collected Company will go from barely playable to not at all.
• The bounce lands are huge anti-tempo plays. This deck is still a tempo deck and they don't play nicely with that. Also, I find myself playing them as a mana source, and then later needing them in my hand to combo.
• Oboro, Palace in the Clouds is secretly one of the best cards in the deck. I want to try three but the legendary nature scares me a little.
• The sideboard seems fine, but I don't know this decks matchups yet to know how it should be tuned.

With all that in mind, what do you guys think? Give the deck a few test tries and let me know.

So I've heard mixed things about confusion with the Sao Paulo winning knightfall deck. Did we confirm whether it was guardian of thraben or heretic cathar? Perhaps I missed the conclusion, just figured Id check back to be sure. Thanks

It's Guardian of Thraben for sure I believe.

for fuqn sure bro

Hello everyone! I made a post on Reddit about sideboard choices and I thought I would also post it here to get people's thoughts:

Ive been on the deck for a little over a month now and I was wondering what kind of sideboard choices people make. When it comes to what cards to run in the board and also which cards to side in against different match-ups. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Just for reference, here is the list I run: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-09-17-bant-knightfall/

@DELTA622 my sideboards usually are based off this:

Izzet Staticaster x 2
Gaddock Teeg x 2
Stony Silence x 2
Unified WIll x 2
Bojuka Bog x 1

Depending on what is doing well, what I expect, and what I know I will play against, I will add certain cards. For example, I usually switch Reflector Mage from the main to side and vice versa in different amounts; sometimes I have all 4 in the main or I have only 2 in the sideboard for the whole 75. Sometimes I play 6 counter spells or I play only 3 so I have more room for hateful spells. Sometimes I'll have planeswalkers alongside more card advantage cards to further increase my win rate against fair decks from above 50 or 60, to 70% favored. I think if you want suggestions or tidbits on sideboarding, and particular card choice in the main or the side, be specific on the particular match-ups that leave you befuddled.

So I've been trying the humans version of this deck. It's been great so far. Out of the very small sample of games I have with it, I have yet to lose a match (to be fair: these are all LGS and casual games with friends). A few thoughts:

• This version fixes one of the biggest problems IMO with Knightfall: the complete disconnect of some of the pieces. In this version, all of the pieces contribute to a cohesive game-plan: flood the board with cheap, efficient and resilient humans that grow into giant threats, with a combo back-up plan.
• 4 Path to Exile, 4 Reflector Mage feels great - it allows us to have effectively 8 removal spells, plus the occasional tapping down a creature with Retreat to Coralhelm. Bant is not normally known for its removal suite, but this deck feels great as our removal suite lines up extremely well against the likes of Death's Shadow, Gurgmag Angler, Thought-Knot Seer and Goblin Electromancer. Plus, with the aggressive slant this version has, it's the best at leveraging its removal out of all of the Knightfall variants.
• Perhaps most importantly, I've been impressed to no end with Unified Will in this build. It was always a powerful sideboard card, but we now have considerably more 1-drop creatures to support it thanks to Champion of the Parish. I've been playing 2 Unified Will, but they've felt so powerful in the sideboard (Drop a few creatures and it's literally Counterspell with less Blue investment) that I'm seriously considering going up to 4.

I am on 4 Unified Will just because it's so good against Eldrazi Tron and I see that deck multiples times a night at my lgs. But even if you're taking this to a GP, you should expect to play unfair and/or big mana decks at some point and this card fills that hole better than Negate imo. Assuming you're on 4 Reflector Mage main, I'd be happy with a sideboard like this for a tournament tomorrow.

Quote from deus837 »

So I've been trying the humans version of this deck. It's been great so far. Out of the very small sample of games I have with it, I have yet to lose a match (to be fair: these are all LGS and casual games with friends). A few thoughts:

• This version fixes one of the biggest problems IMO with Knightfall: the complete disconnect of some of the pieces. In this version, all of the pieces contribute to a cohesive game-plan: flood the board with cheap, efficient and resilient humans that grow into giant threats, with a combo back-up plan.
• 4 Path to Exile, 4 Reflector Mage feels great - it allows us to have effectively 8 removal spells, plus the occasional tapping down a creature with Retreat to Coralhelm. Bant is not normally known for its removal suite, but this deck feels great as our removal suite lines up extremely well against the likes of Death's Shadow, Gurgmag Angler, Thought-Knot Seer and Goblin Electromancer. Plus, with the aggressive slant this version has, it's the best at leveraging its removal out of all of the Knightfall variants.
• Perhaps most importantly, I've been impressed to no end with Unified Will in this build. It was always a powerful sideboard card, but we now have considerably more 1-drop creatures to support it thanks to Champion of the Parish. I've been playing 2 Unified Will, but they've felt so powerful in the sideboard (Drop a few creatures and it's literally Counterspell with less Blue investment) that I'm seriously considering going up to 4.

I've also tried this out recently. The more aggressive take on the Knightfall deck seems better suited at taking on the current roster of top decks. I've been playing a slight variant of the GP list which is very heavy on 3 drops, which results in clunky draws at times but this week I'm going to try out something that Kelvin Chew 5-0ed with online that has a smoother curve and better disruption. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732628#paper

What about this list without the Knightfall package?
A similar list made 2nd in a SCG IQ last mounth.



This looks intersting, I almost never hit the combo with Knightfall, this is more "aggro" style. Also cover very well the Eldrazi match up and support counters for combos. Without the Knight, Rest in Peace can be a good addition too.

IDK knight is what makes the deck good. Even if you don't run retreat, knight is still gooooooood

Didn't realize that Bant Eldrazi was listed as a higher Tier than this deck. That can't be right. Bant Eldrazi is better than many people currently think, but it's still Tier 2 at BEST. Knightfall is Tier 1 or damn close to it!

Played in a 23 person FNM, capped at 4 rounds.

Round 1 vs. Eternal Command. I had a hand of 3 lands, including fetch, BoP, Voice of Resurgence, Courser of Kruphix, and Tireless Tracker. I knew he was probably on E Command, so it seemed good. He tried to fight back, but the clues and the pressure was too much. A Vialed in Goyf got Path to Exiled and 2 turns later when another showed up, I had drawn Scavenging Ooze to make it chump. In the next game, he got off to an early lead with Huntmaster of the Fells, flipping back and forth, but a 4/4 Knight got bigger and bigger and eventually found Red source and Kessig Wolf Run to kill in 2 swings after I drew a little defense. 2-0.

Round 2 vs. BW Eldrazi and Taxes. The first game is rough for him. I Path to Exile a Tidehollow Sculler when he tries to do Wasteland Strangler to get my Voice of Resurgence back. He ends up having to try for all-in with Lingering Souls, which doesn't work well because of double Courser of Kruphix first and then Gavony Township for 2 BoPs and a Queller. In the next game, it is pretty close either way, but he drops a midgame Eldrazi Displacer with 4 Souls tokens in play already. My Tracker has 3 counters, which I don't want to lose, so I Collected Company, hoping to get Reflector Mage. I get Izzet Staticaster AND Reflector Mage and the rest in history. I know...Big Ole Lucksack! 2-0.

Round 3 vs. Bant Company w/Geist of Saint Traft. First turn Noble Hierarch off Temple Garden after he does the same thing. Then he does Voice of Resurgence. I copy him. Then he does...no, I hope not Knight like I'm going to do. Geist of Saint Traft. I do Knight. I take some hits from Geist/Angel. He gets me low with Tamiyo, Field Researcher, but I stabilize, do some fetches to get to 1 life and start to come back. He had a 1 turn window where he needed something, but I stormed back from there, although I couldn't use Retreat to Coralhelm to kill him because I was so low. In game 2, he gets me with some key Reflector Mages, then Geist of Saint Traft and Tamiyo, Field Researcher for lethal. 4 Collected Company for him this game, 2 of which I Negated, but Path to Exile on Spell Queller had him resolve the 2nd important one. In the final game, he mulled to 5. I do turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary after scrying it to the top on turn 1. I then play Courser to reveal Retreat to Coralhelm. I nearly decide to shuffle it away since I KNOW that he has removal. He doesn't, only tapping out for Spell Queller, but my opening hand had 2 Path to Exile and 1 is enough to do the Coralhelm combo. I even forget to gain life from lands, but 22 damage total doesn't care. He actually told me about it. I guess I was excited to be executing the combo! 2-1.

Round 4 vs. Human Company. We were the last two 3-0s, so we ID to secure the Fatal Push. Not to mention, it's my deck that I lent out and the guy I rode with. 0-0-3.

I get 3-0-1. Better than I thought I'd do.

I've been playing the Vizier Knightfall version of this deck for the past couple of weeks, and I'm convinced it's the better version of Knightfall. Here's the list I'm currently running:






The big difference in my list, is not playing reflector mage. While I do think the card is good in traditional knightfall, I think he falls a little short here. Traditional Knightfall is better able to capitalize on the bounce effect because of Spell Queller and Path to Exile, often buying you enough time to find your answer. The vizier combo is definitely stronk against the decks that traditional knightfall is bad against (combo, tron, aggro, etc), though the list admittedly fell short against decks that wanted to interact. Where the Traditional list has enough good threats that it isn't a deal breaker if the Mage isn't useful, but the Vizier has a lot more dead cards when your opponent is running enough removal to keep you from comboing. To remedy this problem, I decided I wanted to play more 2 for 1's and must-kills (as well as other big dudes like Knight to end the game quickly) in that space. After looking around at a million different GWx Vizier lists, I came to the conclusion that Dropping 1 Retreat and 3 Mages for 2 Renegade Rallier and 2 Voice of Resurgences would put a lot more strain on my opponent's removal and other forms of disruption, preventing them from ignoring most of our creatures and only killing combo pieces.

Since then, my BGx and Uxx matchups have improved considerably. Voice is great in these matchups and plays a ton of different roles from being a pseudo spellskite, grand abolisher, or just being a big dumb beater when they kill him and you've got 2-3+ dorks. Renegade Rallier does a great job of forcing more 2 for 1's from your opponent, or making them outright groan when you return voice of resurgence to play. He also has the potential to return either half of the combo and force them to have removal or outright lose. He does require you to avoid cracking fetchlands unless necessary so you don't miss revolt (esp when casting CoCo, as it can be sad to see him w/out revolt).

At this point however, it's basically a question of whether it's better to play black for the finks + seer combo and black sideboard options like decay and sin collector, or stay w/ blue for the knight combo and blue sb options like counterspells, staticaster, and nissa. As of right now, I'm not 100% sure, but knight's flexibility (tutoring for gavony for value, or kessig when you need an outlet for inf mana, or bojuka bog post board) and potential to grow to huge p/t numbers feels extremely strong. The sideboard options in blue feel pretty great too, and I'd feel a lot less comfortable without 3+ counterspells in the board.

I am actually very unsure about whether Vizier Knightfall is better or not. I haven't had time to play test it yet and since I keep drawing well with Knightfall, I am having a lot of fun with it!