You need to goldfish out the combo a bunch of times if that is the case. To make the combo turn faster, tell your opponent you are going to shortcut the shuffling between searches, and bring all the lands in your deck to the front so you can more quickly keep track of what is left. Once you are practiced, it should only take 2-3 minutes to fully combo off. I use some (coloured) dice to keep track of mana/scry triggers as well to make it quick and easy.
The amount of life you need is equal to the number of fetches you'll need to crack - so usually about 8. If you don't have a dork in play, it will be more as you'll need some untapped shocks to finish the job with kessig wolf run. If possible, pay some extra life so that if your knight gets removed you still have a few lands in play (don't sac every last land and go all-in unless you have to).
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Another tip for doing the combo is bring all the lands to the front of the deck or just take all the lands out so it's easier to figure out which lands you need. Also, put all the REAL lands (plains and forest) together so you can count how many fetches you need for how many lands you have--for example if you have 2 forests, 1 plains, stomping Ground, temple Garden, it means you need 5 fetches and then at that point you can just blaze through
Have you guys figured how much life you need to be able to combo a 20HP??
How do we get Knight to a 20/20?
Since every game, and each deck will be different, we're going to have to make a few generalizations to crunch some numbers.
Most lists run 4 forest/plains basics, 4 forest/plains shock lands and 8-9 fetchlands.
Doing the least amount of self-harm, how do we get knight to attack for 20?
Knight: size of the knight after the step
Yard: number of lands in the graveyard
Life: life spent so far, we assume we always pay the 2 for shock lands
Floating: assumed we float all mana the the end of a sequence, and that a 2nd uptap trigger goes to the manadork () is floating mana if we have one.
Attacks for: calculates knights power if we were to grab a kessig wolf-run next, and use all floating mana to activate it.
E Exalted = 1,
K Kessig = 1,
X Kessig value = Floating -2
if we assume we have 2 basics in play, no land in hand, and an empty graveyard.
If we have a hierarch as the manadork we can't use kessig until at least step 3 as we wont have the R to activate. If we have a bird instead we could generate R, and get kessig as soon as the 1st step, but you would not have the exalted trigger. If we had 1-2 land in graveyard before we started the combo we would just add that value to the knights power in the attacks for row.
the above sequence is drawn out to show least life taken when you don't have a manadork, If you do have a manadork, you can optimize slightly by replacing step 5 with
5 Shock
Knight: 12/12
Yard: 10
Life spent: 9
Floating: 5(9)
Attacks for 12+1+1+3(7) =16(21)
This would just be a general case, obviously there are many many different variables that could change this sequencing. Different target value, number of blockers, number of other attackers or Exalted triggers you have, and what specific lands you have left in your deck.
Step 1 is suboptimal as far as I can tell - you should get a fetch first and GQ the fetch if you are leading that way - otherwise you're not using all your fetches. The way you do it leaves an extra fetch in the deck.
edit: It's almost never correct to hit your basics/shocks with GQ since that leaves fetches in your deck. Instead, use them to hit fetches (saves some life as well).
edit2: Moreover, if you lead with a GQ instead of finishing with a GQ, you'll be reducing the number of lands in play during your combo sequence, which means you can't insulate yourself with an extra fetch to keep comboing through removal (getting most of the lands out of the deck is still going to be gas even if knight is removed, and you can still hit with a large dork/other critter with kessig).
The sequence I'd suggest is (from the same position of 2 basics in play empty yard)
Step1: Either play fetch from hand, or search out fetch.
Step2: Search for a second fetch. This leaves you with 2 fetches in play, and maybe another land if you had a 3rd in hand.
Step3: From here you can just alternate one of the fetches getting your shocks/basics into play (6-7 basics/shocks and 6-7 fetchs left in the deck). Keep a fetch in play, and use the other to alternate basics/shocks and fetches. If you have dork, you'll be able to leave some lands in play and hit with a 20/x knight from kessig. If not, you'll have to end with GQ and kessig, and then GQ the kessig (depending on the exact game state, you may or may not be able to leave a basic to get to keep a land in play).
The exact sequence is different from game to game based on which lands you drew (if you drew all basics/shocks, you'll have too many fetches, if you drew fetches you won't have enough basics/shocks). This is why its important to start by getting 2 fetches in play by either playing one or searching them, and then sort the lands to the front of the deck and sort them into basics/shocks, fetches and other.
edit 3 (lol): Also, be aware that you might need to wait until after blockers are declared to start step 3 if you opponent has coco/resto mana, chord mana, cryptic mana, etc, in case you need to untap your knight or tap their flash blockers. Viscera Seer + Kitchen finks can sac the finks to make it come back untapped, which is another flash blocker.
... you should get a fetch first and GQ the fetch if you are leading that way - otherwise you're not using all your fetches. The way you do it leaves an extra fetch in the deck.
edit: It's almost never correct to hit your basics/shocks with GQ since that leaves fetches in your deck. Instead, use them to hit fetches (saves some life as well).
edit2: Moreover, if you lead with a GQ instead of finishing with a GQ, you'll be reducing the number of lands in play during your combo sequence, which means you can't insulate yourself with an extra fetch to keep comboing through removal (getting most of the lands out of the deck is still going to be gas even if knight is removed, and you can still hit with a large dork/other critter with kessig).
The sequence I'd suggest is (from the same position of 2 basics in play empty yard)
...
The exact sequence is different from game to game based on which lands you drew (if you drew all basics/shocks, you'll have too many fetches, if you drew fetches you won't have enough basics/shocks). This is why its important to start by getting 2 fetches in play by either playing one or searching them, and then sort the lands to the front of the deck and sort them into basics/shocks, fetches and other.
...
Thanks for the comments, you are correct in your criticisms.
Step 1 can be improved by getting a fetch, then getting a ghost quarter to hit the fetchland, this would add 1 more land to the yard
Ghost quartering our self will put us down a land, and should probably be considered an all in play.
It could be a useful interaction to grow the knight outside of the combo when you are flooded.
It is a very mutable combo, and there are many different variables to take into account, so it is nearly impossible to give a definitive optimal sequence. Speaking in generalities, and paraphrasing wpgstevo we should only go for GQ when you don't have the life, are flooded on board, or need that extra 2 power to put you in, and you should always get 2 fetches in play before you continue with the combo.
There are quite a few different restore balance deck lists running around (as the deck currently sees next to no play, it is hard to standardize). As such, it's a little hard to talk about how to exactly beat it. That said, from the few times I've played them, I would say we are heavily favored (and that was before I was running Spell Queller). I say this because of our ability to play at instant speed, our artifact/enchantment removal, and our ability to put a fairly fast clock on our opponent. Simply said, they have to respect most of the creatures in our deck. This makes the matchup quite favorable and it only gets better post-board.
Do you need a more in-depth analysis? Do you have a specific restore balance deck in mind?
What if they send out a few of those border posts and then use restore balance and make us sacrifice everything? This version runs lingering souls main board for the grind. It's been hard to stabilize after that..
I don't really think that we are favored vs restore balance, but we have ways to win some games. If you are able to disrupt the balance, everything will be fine. This means, countering it with queller/negate/unified will most of the time. If you run vendilion you can also try to disrupt them with it. Post board, stony silence is a blowout.
I don't really think that we are favored vs restore balance, but we have ways to win some games. If you are able to disrupt the balance, everything will be fine. This means, countering it with queller/negate/unified will most of the time. If you run vendilion you can also try to disrupt them with it. Post board, stony silence is a blowout.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Try Renegade Rallier. I played a sunday event this weekend where I punted my way out of the last round of swiss by resigning in a won position. Remember kids, ghost quartering your own land puts it in untapped, so those lines you plan to gain 1 from courser with your own ghost quarter to go to 1 from attacks and still have enough mana to spell queller the fatal siege rhino before cracking back for lethal really do work
Anyways Renegade Rallier earned his spot this weekend. Whether it was ghost quartering players off their colours, or being a pseudo collected company for 3. I think I overlooked the idea that it would at times be a pseudo coco. There was one game where I needed 2 critters in play for the elemental token to get big enough for the kill after being forced to chump away my dorks. Drew rallier, got back goyf and swung for exactly lethal.
Renegade Rallier is the new hotness imo. I beat the mirror (goyfs > no goyfs), Jund and UR prowess, punted against Abzan and got my clock cleaned by Slivers. Here's what I played:
I don't really think that we are favored vs restore balance, but we have ways to win some games. If you are able to disrupt the balance, everything will be fine. This means, countering it with queller/negate/unified will most of the time. If you run vendilion you can also try to disrupt them with it. Post board, stony silence is a blowout.
Thank you, both of you!
Also, restore balance isn't super fast, so it's reasonable that you could have coco mana to float as it is resolving, and then cast your coco after it has resolved. This is how you play around sweepers with dorks, no reason you can't do it when they are removing your lands as well. Just makes your knights/goyfs better hits!
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She is comming down faster than the eidolon
I keep taking all the rounds time when I combo off and get lots of draws. I've only played like 20 games so far I must say.
The amount of life you need is equal to the number of fetches you'll need to crack - so usually about 8. If you don't have a dork in play, it will be more as you'll need some untapped shocks to finish the job with kessig wolf run. If possible, pay some extra life so that if your knight gets removed you still have a few lands in play (don't sac every last land and go all-in unless you have to).
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Here's the list:
4 noble hierarch
3 birds of paradise
2 qusali pridemage
1 selfless spirit
3 scavenging ooze
3 voice of resurgence
4 knight of the reliquary
4 spell queller
1 eternal witness
1 tireless tracker
1 vendilion clique
1 courser of kruphix
Noncreatures
4 path to exile
4 collected company
2 retreat to coralhelm
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
1 flooded strand
1 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
1 horizon canopy
1 kessig wolf run
1 stomping ground
1 breeding pool
1 temple garden
1 hallowed fountain
3 forest
1 plains
1 island
2 blessed alliance
1 Eidolon of rhetoric
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 kitchen finks
2 unified will
2 negate
1 eldritch evolution
1 stony silence
1 izzet staticaster
1 gaddock teeg
1 kataki, war's wage
1 vendilion clique
Thoughts?
How do we get Knight to a 20/20?
Since every game, and each deck will be different, we're going to have to make a few generalizations to crunch some numbers.
Most lists run 4 forest/plains basics, 4 forest/plains shock lands and 8-9 fetchlands.
Doing the least amount of self-harm, how do we get knight to attack for 20?
Knight: size of the knight after the step
Yard: number of lands in the graveyard
Life: life spent so far, we assume we always pay the 2 for shock lands
Floating: assumed we float all mana the the end of a sequence, and that a 2nd uptap trigger goes to the manadork () is floating mana if we have one.
Attacks for: calculates knights power if we were to grab a kessig wolf-run next, and use all floating mana to activate it.
E Exalted = 1,
K Kessig = 1,
X Kessig value = Floating -2
if we assume we have 2 basics in play, no land in hand, and an empty graveyard.
Yard: 0
Life spent: 0
Floating: 0(0)
Attacks for: 2 +E+K+X
Yard: 3
Life spent: 0
Floating: 1(2)
Attacks for: 5 +1+1+0(0) =7(7)
Yard: 5
Life spent: 1
Floating: 2(4)
Attacks for: 7 +1+1+0(2) =9(11)
Yard: 7
Life spent: 4
Floating: 3(6)
Attacks for: 9 +1+1+1(4) =12(15)
Yard: 9
Life spent: 7
Floating: 4(8)
Attacks for: 11+1+1+2(6) =15(19)
Yard: 11
Life spent: 10
Floating: 5(10)
Attacks for: 13+1+1+3(8) =18(23)
Yard: 13
Life spent: 13
Floating: 6(12)
Attacks for: 15+1+1+4(10) =21(27)
If we have a hierarch as the manadork we can't use kessig until at least step 3 as we wont have the R to activate. If we have a bird instead we could generate R, and get kessig as soon as the 1st step, but you would not have the exalted trigger. If we had 1-2 land in graveyard before we started the combo we would just add that value to the knights power in the attacks for row.
the above sequence is drawn out to show least life taken when you don't have a manadork, If you do have a manadork, you can optimize slightly by replacing step 5 with
Yard: 10
Life spent: 9
Floating: 5(9)
Attacks for 12+1+1+3(7) =16(21)
This would just be a general case, obviously there are many many different variables that could change this sequencing. Different target value, number of blockers, number of other attackers or Exalted triggers you have, and what specific lands you have left in your deck.
edit: It's almost never correct to hit your basics/shocks with GQ since that leaves fetches in your deck. Instead, use them to hit fetches (saves some life as well).
edit2: Moreover, if you lead with a GQ instead of finishing with a GQ, you'll be reducing the number of lands in play during your combo sequence, which means you can't insulate yourself with an extra fetch to keep comboing through removal (getting most of the lands out of the deck is still going to be gas even if knight is removed, and you can still hit with a large dork/other critter with kessig).
The sequence I'd suggest is (from the same position of 2 basics in play empty yard)
Step1: Either play fetch from hand, or search out fetch.
Step2: Search for a second fetch. This leaves you with 2 fetches in play, and maybe another land if you had a 3rd in hand.
Step3: From here you can just alternate one of the fetches getting your shocks/basics into play (6-7 basics/shocks and 6-7 fetchs left in the deck). Keep a fetch in play, and use the other to alternate basics/shocks and fetches. If you have dork, you'll be able to leave some lands in play and hit with a 20/x knight from kessig. If not, you'll have to end with GQ and kessig, and then GQ the kessig (depending on the exact game state, you may or may not be able to leave a basic to get to keep a land in play).
The exact sequence is different from game to game based on which lands you drew (if you drew all basics/shocks, you'll have too many fetches, if you drew fetches you won't have enough basics/shocks). This is why its important to start by getting 2 fetches in play by either playing one or searching them, and then sort the lands to the front of the deck and sort them into basics/shocks, fetches and other.
edit 3 (lol): Also, be aware that you might need to wait until after blockers are declared to start step 3 if you opponent has coco/resto mana, chord mana, cryptic mana, etc, in case you need to untap your knight or tap their flash blockers. Viscera Seer + Kitchen finks can sac the finks to make it come back untapped, which is another flash blocker.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Thanks for the comments, you are correct in your criticisms.
Step 1 can be improved by getting a fetch, then getting a ghost quarter to hit the fetchland, this would add 1 more land to the yard
Ghost quartering our self will put us down a land, and should probably be considered an all in play.
It could be a useful interaction to grow the knight outside of the combo when you are flooded.
It is a very mutable combo, and there are many different variables to take into account, so it is nearly impossible to give a definitive optimal sequence. Speaking in generalities, and paraphrasing wpgstevo we should only go for GQ when you don't have the life, are flooded on board, or need that extra 2 power to put you in, and you should always get 2 fetches in play before you continue with the combo.
Do you need a more in-depth analysis? Do you have a specific restore balance deck in mind?
Thank you in advance!
L: Maverick
Thank you, both of you!
What do you all think?
If Tracker isn't performing for you, I wouldn't suggest adding a fringe playable 4-Mana color intensive Planeswalker that lowers your Company hits...
Anyways Renegade Rallier earned his spot this weekend. Whether it was ghost quartering players off their colours, or being a pseudo collected company for 3. I think I overlooked the idea that it would at times be a pseudo coco. There was one game where I needed 2 critters in play for the elemental token to get big enough for the kill after being forced to chump away my dorks. Drew rallier, got back goyf and swung for exactly lethal.
Renegade Rallier is the new hotness imo. I beat the mirror (goyfs > no goyfs), Jund and UR prowess, punted against Abzan and got my clock cleaned by Slivers. Here's what I played:
3x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Renegade Rallier
3x Spell Queller
1x Reflector Mage
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Stony Silence
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Meddling Mage
2x Negate
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Rhox War Monk
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG