Ended up 3-2, and dropped. Only X-1 went on for prizes in top 8 in a pool of 80 (ridiculous amount of $ for top 8 ppl...) and I had to get back to save babysitter money, so i didn't play the last two meaningless rounds. Here are my thoughts. I'm gonna keep it cliff notes style.
Round 1: Dredge 2-0
My opponent was playing the most stock list there is out there now, and it went better than i thought. I landed an ooze and sat back and ate stuff game one, really not doing much else eating his dredge cards, creatures, and conflag's. He concedes while I'm at 24 life and huge board. 2nd game I go down to five, but land an ooze and bojuka bog and slow his roll. Courser helps me stabilize and a company into knight and voice is too much. Scooze for the win in this one.
Round 2: Bant spirits 2-1
First game opens with a beatdown for me, i end up drawing both retreats with no good way to use them while exalted geists and other flying creatures take me down quickly. They use spell queller, rattle chains and wanderer to great effect as i struggle from being on the play and lose.
Games 2 and 3 the star ends up being reflector mage and izzet stat from the board, also bring in a blessed alliance or two for some ooze, tracker, coralhelm and e wit. Turns out reflector mage on their quellers and drogskol captains is kind of awesome. izzet staticaster blows up spirits like its her job. word of caution: They brought in EE and I did not expect it, caught me off guard game 2 but i managed to out company and quell him to victory two games in a row. Voice is also a boss in this matchup and really messes with them.
Round 3: G/W Company/Lands deck 2-0
This is that deck that Todd Stevens recently played. It was a grind fest for sure. As we both land coursers, trackers, knights against each other its basically a crowded board until I land the retreat in game one and he goes through 5 clues to find his last path and cannot. That game took about 30 minutes.
I made the mistake of boarding out gavony township for bojuka bog, which was overly cute as this game also went to time in the round because i couldn't quite get the pump on my team, although he assured me he would have ghost quartered it- still always leave in gavony vs midrange decks, my bad there. Again, i brought in reflector mage which was amazing, again. That card is kind of busted in modern and it seems like nobody knows it. I'm seriously considering one or two main board. I end up winning because of quellers.
Rounds 4 and 5: Jeskai nahiri, lose one in 2 one in 3.
Sigh. Guys, I'm a little shaken by these matches. I tried playing in these matches both in more of a reactionary, don't run my creatures into removal and counters, and then also just trying to stick as much stuff as i could and win fast; but neither really worked. Anytime I was on the draw, I just felt way behind. I find these games grind out slowly but the jeskai player ends up landing a nahiri eventually and getting tons of cards to stop anything I can do. Snap caster laughs in my face. Granted, I did flood randomly at times, but I left these matches feeling like I need either sideboard or mainboard options to keep the gas going when I can't land company's and I'm playing creatures off the top to die. Do I need more trackers (they die easily to bolts or electrolyze though)? Do I need to play 2 EWit? Do I need a planes walker like elspeth, gideon or nahiri to stick around after the mainboard supreme verdict and anger of the gods ruin my board?
The 2 game loss match was a grind but i never felt like i was close. The other match (i lost in 3), I lost game one similarly, then had a great quick game 2, then game 3 was 1 damage away from winning before he absolutely destroyed any chance of winning with 2 snap casters and me flooding. Not sure if I just had a bad day, But I feel like I need a plan vs this deck, and probably others like it such as grixis/UW etc. My SB plan was basically- cut paths and retreats and pridemage, and bring in 2-3 counters (never drew them) depending on draw or play, clique (never got it, and honestly they kept killing my mana dorks so casting it was gonna be tough regardless), blessed alliance and finks. Maybe I'm way off on this.
TL;DR. Deck feels good but I could get better and perhaps my list and approach. I certainly can win most matchup but I'm feeling like I need some more card advantage or a more toolbox type setup vs control decks running tons of mainboard board wipes now. Or planes walkers of some kind to be annoying and hard to kill, or push damage through fast. Any help?
@Dreadnaught33 The problem with control match-ups isn't a card or whatever--they will always re[mana]move your creatures if they have it. How you win this match-up, like any fair match-up, is through attrition. That's why Tireless Tracker + Knight of the Reliquary is almost always a free win. It imperative to be familiar with the type of removal and permission they can/are representing with their mana. They, just how Grixis Control is reliant on ancestral visions to carry them to their late game lock with C/K Commands and Tasigur, are reliant on Ancestral Visions and Nahiri, the Harbinger ultimate for Emrakul. You don't need to do anything cute. You just need to overwhelm your opponent with Disruption and overwhelming quality and value. Also, Gaddock Teeg, Selfless Spirit, and Spellskite are among the BEST utility creatures for the match-up. For example, Selfless Spirit and Spellskite vs. a Jeskai deck means that unless they have Path to Exile for Spellskite and Burn spell for Selfless Spirit/ or Triple burn spells for both Spellskite and Selfless spirit ON YOUR TURN, they can't boardwipe you. Even worse if you have Gaddock Teeg. Just be familiar with all the removal/permission they have and it will allow you to understand the types of lines you can take and the lines that they can or cannot take.
If you really want to improve your fair MU and control MU in particular, you might want to add more Tireless Trackers and ditch some Retreat to Coralhelm. Honestly, KotR + Tireless Tracker is just game winning combination that almost always wins the game; you just flood them with card advantage and disruption that it's so hard to overcome. At some point, you have Gaddock Teeg preventing them from casting their high end spells, you have spell Quellers for any spell they have that might lose you control, your creatures get so huge because of lands and clues (KotR & TT)... It's so dominating. TL;DR PLAY MORE TIRELESS TRACKER AND YOU WILL WIN AGAINST FAIR MATCH-UPS MORE OFTEN.
@mishrazz Gaddock Teeg + Unified Wills/Negate + Stony Silence + Ghost Quarter (if you're playing a second one). The match up is already horrible but you can steal games with these cards. Having a Spellskite also helps.
Having a turn 2 Knight is key. The combo is VERY good in this matchup since they have very few ways to interact with it. Knight can also tutor up Ghost Quarters. Playing at least two GQs post-board will give you a chance to keep them off tron long enough to set up a winning game-plan (one GQ can act as a speed-bump but it usually won't be enough) Some people run 1-2 Eldritch Evolution post-board for this reason. It's all-in but it isn't crazy.
Stony Silence can sometimes win games flat out, but other times it does nothing. It's a 2 or a 10 in this matchup.
Counterspells are very good here, especially Unified Will. If they have more creatures than you, you're not coming back from it anyway, so this is basically "1U: Counter target spell."
I've also found Reflector Mage (bounces Wurmcoil Engine, much better than keeping Path in) and Vendillion Clique (takes their best threat) to be very good in this matchup.
Collected Company is still the star of the show here. It's completely possible to beat an Ugin or Karn by casting an EoT Collected Company. It's usually the follow-up fatty that is too much to overcome.
Overall I would say we're very unfavored G1 (But not as unfavored as some other creature decks, thanks to the combo and Collected Company). Post-board it's closer; we may even be favored on the play, but it's much worse on the draw, so we usually need to get a bit lucky to win the match.
I used to have lots of issues with tron. Literally the most hated matchup of mine. Lately, however, against the 8+ games I've played against various tron decks (U, GR, GB) I've won ever single game. Granted, part of it could be good draws, but the combination of Unified Will, an extra Ghost Quarter, Stony Silence, and Surgical Extraction from the board help immensely. I cut unified will then brought it back recently, so I can't vouch for it's effectiveness, but I am a fan of the card. if you can keep a sub-par hand with either the combo or a turn 2 stony silence it can easily create a win for you.
On a side note, I picked up a Wargate recently. I'm testing a 1-of in the main, eventually I want to try a 2-of in the 75. So far, it allowed me to combo off after an ugin wipe from tron (lol). EOT CoCo, wargate is pretty good.
Hi guys, i'm a kiki-chord player...i'm always trying something new and at the moment i'm testing a bant version of the deck in order to increase the win ratio against infair deck and tron..i also love Kotr and i came up here for the love of this card. While i was looking at yours decklist i saw Eldritch Evolution. Can someone explain why playing that card in the shell of knightfall?thx
edit: nobody has tried Renegade Rallier for extra value?
It's definitely been experimented with. The consensus IIRC was that it can be good in Tron-heavy metas in conjunction with extra Ghost Quarters, and it's a key piece in the Naya Landfall Company build along with Steppe Lynx/Plated Geopede/Knight of the Reliquary. It's had less success in the traditional Bant Company/Knightfall versions, possibly due to a very crowded 3-drop slot and recurring 0-2-drops being less relevant to the deck's gameplan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Any of you guys actually been playing more towards the combo with 3 retreats to coralhelm anymore? Interestingly, the last two lists that top 8ed have 3: http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=222&meta=51&f=MO
Hey, I am Dan Campbell from the TJ'S event (74ppl 7 rounds 5/1/1 in swiss). As to 2 vs 3 retreats, modern is so aggressive at the moment, I think we must build toward the combo. If draw go and jund/junk become more popular, then moving away from the combo is safer. I have been playing this deck since queller was printed and would be glad to answer any questions about my list/write a report when I get home.
Also, company retreat is the far superior pun name for the deck. Just saying.
edit: nobody has tried Renegade Rallier for extra value?
It's definitely been experimented with. The consensus IIRC was that it can be good in Tron-heavy metas in conjunction with extra Ghost Quarters, and it's a key piece in the Naya Landfall Company build along with Steppe Lynx/Plated Geopede/Knight of the Reliquary. It's had less success in the traditional Bant Company/Knightfall versions, possibly due to a very crowded 3-drop slot and recurring 0-2-drops being less relevant to the deck's gameplan.
Some consideration on the manabase based on experience. I've played different version of kiki deck 3-4 colours. In a 3 colours build i think that we can afford only 3 lands that don't provide coloured mana. especially if our two drops are mana intensive like voice. So, tell me if i am wrong, but we can play only 2 GQ and a gavony as this type of lands. Otherwise the risk of mulligan are very high. I think this is the limit of a tricolour deck. A full package of GQ can only be support by a two colours deck ( GW deck like the todd stevens's one or gw taxes). The conclusion is that we have to find another way to beat big mana deck and i dont know if playing the second GQ will do a difference. thoughts?
That sounds about right. The extra GQs generally go in the sideboard and come in in place of nonland cards. (Sorry that I left that part out!)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Hey Dan, yeah I think most of the ppl in here would love a report. It really helps me a lot to see what happens to good players in real life.
I my meta, it seems that junk, jeskai nahiri, storm, grixis, and other BGx decks are most popular, (with some other midrange decks and tron) so i've been thinking of only playing one retreat even but seeing you guys do well in an open field gives me pause on that.
I think you just gotta find a playstyle of Knightfall that you feel comfortable with. With or without the combo, you can still smash varieties of meta games depending on ur configuration of the deck. Don't worry about the combo or not. It's incidental and random anyways.
I my meta, it seems that junk, jeskai nahiri, storm, grixis, and other BGx decks are most popular, (with some other midrange decks and tron) so i've been thinking of only playing one retreat even but seeing you guys do well in an open field gives me pause on that.
I'll write something up tonight then.
I find one of our biggest strengths against tron is the ability to end the game on turn 3 because they pack so little interaction. But I do trim the combo vs grindy removal.deck I would still argue to keep at least 2 retreats maindeck. It provides much more utility then just the combo. Renegade rallier,selfless spirit, and voice are your best buds vs the decks you mention.
I'm contemplating chucking a vexing shusher in the board for control matchups. Someone talk me out of it.
Counterspell decks are going to run a lot of removal too. If you want to hose control Thrun is about the most problematic card you could play against them
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
4c Traverse Shadow, RG Eldrazi, Death and Taxes
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Ended up 3-2, and dropped. Only X-1 went on for prizes in top 8 in a pool of 80 (ridiculous amount of $ for top 8 ppl...) and I had to get back to save babysitter money, so i didn't play the last two meaningless rounds. Here are my thoughts. I'm gonna keep it cliff notes style.
Round 1: Dredge 2-0
My opponent was playing the most stock list there is out there now, and it went better than i thought. I landed an ooze and sat back and ate stuff game one, really not doing much else eating his dredge cards, creatures, and conflag's. He concedes while I'm at 24 life and huge board. 2nd game I go down to five, but land an ooze and bojuka bog and slow his roll. Courser helps me stabilize and a company into knight and voice is too much. Scooze for the win in this one.
Round 2: Bant spirits 2-1
First game opens with a beatdown for me, i end up drawing both retreats with no good way to use them while exalted geists and other flying creatures take me down quickly. They use spell queller, rattle chains and wanderer to great effect as i struggle from being on the play and lose.
Games 2 and 3 the star ends up being reflector mage and izzet stat from the board, also bring in a blessed alliance or two for some ooze, tracker, coralhelm and e wit. Turns out reflector mage on their quellers and drogskol captains is kind of awesome. izzet staticaster blows up spirits like its her job. word of caution: They brought in EE and I did not expect it, caught me off guard game 2 but i managed to out company and quell him to victory two games in a row. Voice is also a boss in this matchup and really messes with them.
Round 3: G/W Company/Lands deck 2-0
This is that deck that Todd Stevens recently played. It was a grind fest for sure. As we both land coursers, trackers, knights against each other its basically a crowded board until I land the retreat in game one and he goes through 5 clues to find his last path and cannot. That game took about 30 minutes.
I made the mistake of boarding out gavony township for bojuka bog, which was overly cute as this game also went to time in the round because i couldn't quite get the pump on my team, although he assured me he would have ghost quartered it- still always leave in gavony vs midrange decks, my bad there. Again, i brought in reflector mage which was amazing, again. That card is kind of busted in modern and it seems like nobody knows it. I'm seriously considering one or two main board. I end up winning because of quellers.
Rounds 4 and 5: Jeskai nahiri, lose one in 2 one in 3.
Sigh. Guys, I'm a little shaken by these matches. I tried playing in these matches both in more of a reactionary, don't run my creatures into removal and counters, and then also just trying to stick as much stuff as i could and win fast; but neither really worked. Anytime I was on the draw, I just felt way behind. I find these games grind out slowly but the jeskai player ends up landing a nahiri eventually and getting tons of cards to stop anything I can do. Snap caster laughs in my face. Granted, I did flood randomly at times, but I left these matches feeling like I need either sideboard or mainboard options to keep the gas going when I can't land company's and I'm playing creatures off the top to die. Do I need more trackers (they die easily to bolts or electrolyze though)? Do I need to play 2 EWit? Do I need a planes walker like elspeth, gideon or nahiri to stick around after the mainboard supreme verdict and anger of the gods ruin my board?
The 2 game loss match was a grind but i never felt like i was close. The other match (i lost in 3), I lost game one similarly, then had a great quick game 2, then game 3 was 1 damage away from winning before he absolutely destroyed any chance of winning with 2 snap casters and me flooding. Not sure if I just had a bad day, But I feel like I need a plan vs this deck, and probably others like it such as grixis/UW etc. My SB plan was basically- cut paths and retreats and pridemage, and bring in 2-3 counters (never drew them) depending on draw or play, clique (never got it, and honestly they kept killing my mana dorks so casting it was gonna be tough regardless), blessed alliance and finks. Maybe I'm way off on this.
TL;DR. Deck feels good but I could get better and perhaps my list and approach. I certainly can win most matchup but I'm feeling like I need some more card advantage or a more toolbox type setup vs control decks running tons of mainboard board wipes now. Or planes walkers of some kind to be annoying and hard to kill, or push damage through fast. Any help?
If you really want to improve your fair MU and control MU in particular, you might want to add more Tireless Trackers and ditch some Retreat to Coralhelm. Honestly, KotR + Tireless Tracker is just game winning combination that almost always wins the game; you just flood them with card advantage and disruption that it's so hard to overcome. At some point, you have Gaddock Teeg preventing them from casting their high end spells, you have spell Quellers for any spell they have that might lose you control, your creatures get so huge because of lands and clues (KotR & TT)... It's so dominating. TL;DR PLAY MORE TIRELESS TRACKER AND YOU WILL WIN AGAINST FAIR MATCH-UPS MORE OFTEN.
Thanks
It's never favorable, but:
Overall I would say we're very unfavored G1 (But not as unfavored as some other creature decks, thanks to the combo and Collected Company). Post-board it's closer; we may even be favored on the play, but it's much worse on the draw, so we usually need to get a bit lucky to win the match.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Negate does a fair amount as well
On a side note, I picked up a Wargate recently. I'm testing a 1-of in the main, eventually I want to try a 2-of in the 75. So far, it allowed me to combo off after an ugin wipe from tron (lol). EOT CoCo, wargate is pretty good.
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
It's definitely been experimented with. The consensus IIRC was that it can be good in Tron-heavy metas in conjunction with extra Ghost Quarters, and it's a key piece in the Naya Landfall Company build along with Steppe Lynx/Plated Geopede/Knight of the Reliquary. It's had less success in the traditional Bant Company/Knightfall versions, possibly due to a very crowded 3-drop slot and recurring 0-2-drops being less relevant to the deck's gameplan.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Also, company retreat is the far superior pun name for the deck. Just saying.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15084&d=291321&f=MO
That sounds about right. The extra GQs generally go in the sideboard and come in in place of nonland cards. (Sorry that I left that part out!)
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I my meta, it seems that junk, jeskai nahiri, storm, grixis, and other BGx decks are most popular, (with some other midrange decks and tron) so i've been thinking of only playing one retreat even but seeing you guys do well in an open field gives me pause on that.
I'll write something up tonight then.
I find one of our biggest strengths against tron is the ability to end the game on turn 3 because they pack so little interaction. But I do trim the combo vs grindy removal.deck I would still argue to keep at least 2 retreats maindeck. It provides much more utility then just the combo. Renegade rallier,selfless spirit, and voice are your best buds vs the decks you mention.
List here: http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/facetofacegames-com-quebec-city-open-coverage-march-25th-2017/
Counterspell decks are going to run a lot of removal too. If you want to hose control Thrun is about the most problematic card you could play against them