I just want to weigh in on the combo vs. combo-less versions. Something which I've noticed, from just mostly playing Knightfall at 2-3 different stores: people recognize that I play Knightfall. Therefore, not matter what happens game 1, They side in graveyard and enchantment hate. I've told a couple people that I often side out the combo games 2 and 3 depending on the match up, but I still see people bring in the enchantment hate (to a lesser extent I see Pithing Needles too). I guess this might not be possible for everyone, but if you have a regular store you go to for FNM switching up the deck from combo to combo-less to combo-centric could be the right play, just to screw with people who assume what deck you're playing and side in hate for specific cards.
I'll try Bento's list at the next couple of FNMs and see how it'll play out. One question, what other cards would fill Elspeth's role? I have one, but don't know if I'll try and pick up another until I see how she plays
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Recently, I’ve gone 12-1-1 despite being a bit out of practice. I bring this up because I have some hopefully useful observations.
Notes: I tried a three of Tireless Tracker and I quickly cut this down to a two of. My reasoning is that Tracker doesn’t really help dig for answers all too well due to how expensive clue tokens are. While Tracker is probably our best wincon, he’s slow. Against most of the meta, we already tend to be favored the longer the game goes. Thereby, I think that we don’t need that many slow cards. Thereby, I’ve started to replace tracker with Courser of Kruphix as it helps us block and helps us grind. That said, I’m still leaving in a Tireless Tracker as, once again, it generates so much card advantage that it’s almost impossible to lose if he sticks and we’re not too far behind.
I want to try a main board Blessed Alliance. Bant Eldrazi sometimes runs it main and we can better utilize the card. I feel like I run into the problem of not enough removal or too little life when I finally stabilize a little too often. Blessed Alliance helps solve that problem.
Lastly, I finally noticed something rather obvious recently. For awhile, I’ve noticed that I tend to win games 2-3 but lose game 1. I just ignored this fact, but there is a reason for it. Knightfall is first and foremost a tempo, borderline control deck. This means that we try our best to win game 1, but, frequently enough, we have to rely on winning games two and three with our about 8ish sideboard cards. Thereby, against most linear decks, we are not favored game 1. Now, enter Retreat to Coralhelm. This card is by far my least favorite in the entire deck as it is a major tempo loss. However, the combo provides us with a way to be a linear deck game 1. Post-board, we side into the eight-ish cards that let us play a nice fair game of magic, but, pre-board, frequently enough, we need a way to goldfish or we will be goldfished.
What decks are you losing to game 1 where you NEED to rely on a landfall golfish to win?
I just want to weigh in on the combo vs. combo-less versions. Something which I've noticed, from just mostly playing Knightfall at 2-3 different stores: people recognize that I play Knightfall. Therefore, not matter what happens game 1, They side in graveyard and enchantment hate. I've told a couple people that I often side out the combo games 2 and 3 depending on the match up, but I still see people bring in the enchantment hate (to a lesser extent I see Pithing Needles too). I guess this might not be possible for everyone, but if you have a regular store you go to for FNM switching up the deck from combo to combo-less to combo-centric could be the right play, just to screw with people who assume what deck you're playing and side in hate for specific cards.
I'll try Bento's list at the next couple of FNMs and see how it'll play out. One question, what other cards would fill Elspeth's role? I have one, but don't know if I'll try and pick up another until I see how she plays
My list is pretty spread open, but at the same time, tries to punish fair decks. If you're going to an FNM where you know people are on combo decks on combo decks and not a wide open field where you can potentially play against anything, then you probably should add a Retreat or two to have an out game 1 other than the Elspeth and shave some Trackers.
What decks are you losing to game 1 where you NEED to rely on a landfall golfish to win?
Elves and Boggles
Against most decks, the game one can easily swing either way. To a certain degree, it depends on what you draw. For example, Scavenging Ooze isn't great against Tron. I bring this up because if you draw the wrong half of your deck, you can get behind. The combo wins no matter how far behind we are. Thereby, post-board, we remove that wrong half of the deck, but, pre-board, sometimes you just need to combo.
There's been a lot of talk about the merits of removing the combo... Personally I can't get behind that. If we're going to go the pure value route, we become basically an inferior version of Todd Stevens' GW Value Town deck (inferior because our mana is worse, making it hard to play as many Ghost Quarters). I like the combo because it gives us an out to decks we can't normally beat, (Tron, Valakut, Elves) which really sets this deck apart in my mind from other Collected Company decks. However I do get people's concern about Retreat being bad when drawn. Personally I've won more games from the combo than I've lost games due to drawing Retreat in a bad spot. Still, I'm wondering, has anyone tried playing only one copy of Retreat and replacing the second copy with Wargate? Granted, it is very slow, so I don't know if it's worth it. On the plus side, it can also grab anything else from the deck, making it excellent in grindy matches (but, it is probably too slow at grabbing sideboard bullets for instance). Do you guys think one copy of Wargate might have merit?
Having played around with the deck a bit more, I always feel very comfortable against any deck, but I can't seem to ever win against naya zoo. The version with the emissary and the reckless buschwacker.
What is our strategy? Hope to get T1 dork into T2 3drop?
They just go way too wide way too fast, so I haven't found blessed alliance that useful for either removal or life. Courser does help with the life, but he doesn't trade that well. Could the answer be in the reflector mages?
I think this match-up is favorable. I approach the match-up as the control deck looking to create a boardstall. Once we can stabilize and create a board stall we're heavily favored as we can break through boardstalls with flyers and knight doesn't need to attack to create value. Having turn one dork is really important in this match-up and spell queller can be quite devastating for them.
Has anyone tested a version with a couple of tarmogoyfs?
I've tested goyfs briefly, I played 2 of them and found that they weren't all that good. In knightfall we want all of our creatures to serve some other purpose other than being a beater. Goyf was too often just a 2/3 (sometimes less) and really only shined in the matches in which our opponent is naturally putting a lot of card types in their graveyard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
Has anyone tested a version with a couple of tarmogoyfs?
I want to test 2 goyfs in place of voice. Voice hasn't been that good, and there's lots of delirium strategies that enable goyf for us. In addition to that, 1g is a better cost than gw (with so many colorless lands its not trivial to have GW turn two.
For tournament decks, check what nathan smith played at GP dallas.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Having played around with the deck a bit more, I always feel very comfortable against any deck, but I can't seem to ever win against naya zoo. The version with the emissary and the reckless buschwacker.
What is our strategy? Hope to get T1 dork into T2 3drop?
They just go way too wide way too fast, so I haven't found blessed alliance that useful for either removal or life. Courser does help with the life, but he doesn't trade that well. Could the answer be in the reflector mages?
Spell Queller turn two for their BTE x 8 is really important cuz then they just hit you for 5729472919 damage on turn 2
I believe this is pretty standard and nothing really special. Are 10 Fetchlands duable or should i cut them down to 8?
Kinda like the sideboard 1-off creatures in conjunction with Eldritch Evolution to free up some slots.
Would be nice if anybody has suggestions or general advices for me as i'm completely new to the deck.
With Knight of the Reliquary you never wanna go past 9 and 9 fetchlands is pushing it
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I believe this is pretty standard and nothing really special. Are 10 Fetchlands duable or should i cut them down to 8?
Kinda like the sideboard 1-off creatures in conjunction with Eldritch Evolution to free up some slots.
Would be nice if anybody has suggestions or general advices for me as i'm completely new to the deck.
As GoST- said 10 fetches are very doable, the only issue i see with your fetch count is that your wooded foothills may become dead occasionally. You only have 5 lands you can fetch out with them versus the 6 you can fetch out with misty and 7 with windswept heath. You may want to switch one of those foothills into a flooded strand to reduce the likelihood of running out of lands to fetch. Either that or you could cut a fetch in favor of a botanical sanctum which may be good given the mainboard clique.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
I personally have been enjoying the tango lands in my sort of budget version of the deck. With 5 basics, I almost always can fetch on t1 basic on t2 and then my tangos are useful for the rest of the game, at no life cost. If land distruction, Fulminator Mage is heavy in your meta, then I understand paying the extra $$. I think that 1 Prairie Stream and 1 Canopy Vista deserve a mention or test.
Also, side note, how does one stop being a "Just Getting Started"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Are you too good for ego issues? If so call 1-800-EGOS, that's 1-800-EGOS. Call 1-800-EGOS today!
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I personally have been enjoying the tango lands in my sort of budget version of the deck. With 5 basics, I almost always can fetch on t1 basic on t2 and then my tangos are useful for the rest of the game, at no life cost. If land distruction, Fulminator Mage is heavy in your meta, then I understand paying the extra $$. I think that 1 Prairie Stream and 1 Canopy Vista deserve a mention or test.
The issue is that Knightfall is a first and foremost a tempo deck. I bring this point up because having lands come into play tapped can be a huge tempo disadvantage. This fact alone can very easily lead to use losing the game. I would argue that most of the reason Sejiri Steppe isn't run in any professional builds is because it comes into play tapped. If I were to run it, it would be the only forced tap land in the deck, yet I steer clear of it because it has to be tapped.
I personally have been enjoying the tango lands in my sort of budget version of the deck. With 5 basics, I almost always can fetch on t1 basic on t2 and then my tangos are useful for the rest of the game, at no life cost. If land distruction, Fulminator Mage is heavy in your meta, then I understand paying the extra $$. I think that 1 Prairie Stream and 1 Canopy Vista deserve a mention or test.
The issue is that Knightfall is a first and foremost a tempo deck. I bring this point up because having lands come into play tapped can be a huge tempo disadvantage. This fact alone can very easily lead to use losing the game. I would argue that most of the reason Sejiri Steppe isn't run in any professional builds is because it comes into play tapped. If I were to run it, it would be the only forced tap land in the deck, yet I steer clear of it because it has to be tapped.
Would/do you run any? I like them when cracking a fetch late game, when 2 life can really matter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Are you too good for ego issues? If so call 1-800-EGOS, that's 1-800-EGOS. Call 1-800-EGOS today!
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
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I'll try Bento's list at the next couple of FNMs and see how it'll play out. One question, what other cards would fill Elspeth's role? I have one, but don't know if I'll try and pick up another until I see how she plays
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/kelvin-chew/commonly-asked-questions-about-knightfall
What decks are you losing to game 1 where you NEED to rely on a landfall golfish to win?
My list is pretty spread open, but at the same time, tries to punish fair decks. If you're going to an FNM where you know people are on combo decks on combo decks and not a wide open field where you can potentially play against anything, then you probably should add a Retreat or two to have an out game 1 other than the Elspeth and shave some Trackers.
Against most decks, the game one can easily swing either way. To a certain degree, it depends on what you draw. For example, Scavenging Ooze isn't great against Tron. I bring this up because if you draw the wrong half of your deck, you can get behind. The combo wins no matter how far behind we are. Thereby, post-board, we remove that wrong half of the deck, but, pre-board, sometimes you just need to combo.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I think this match-up is favorable. I approach the match-up as the control deck looking to create a boardstall. Once we can stabilize and create a board stall we're heavily favored as we can break through boardstalls with flyers and knight doesn't need to attack to create value. Having turn one dork is really important in this match-up and spell queller can be quite devastating for them.
I've tested goyfs briefly, I played 2 of them and found that they weren't all that good. In knightfall we want all of our creatures to serve some other purpose other than being a beater. Goyf was too often just a 2/3 (sometimes less) and really only shined in the matches in which our opponent is naturally putting a lot of card types in their graveyard.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
I want to test 2 goyfs in place of voice. Voice hasn't been that good, and there's lots of delirium strategies that enable goyf for us. In addition to that, 1g is a better cost than gw (with so many colorless lands its not trivial to have GW turn two.
For tournament decks, check what nathan smith played at GP dallas.
L: Maverick
Spell Queller turn two for their BTE x 8 is really important cuz then they just hit you for 5729472919 damage on turn 2
With Knight of the Reliquary you never wanna go past 9 and 9 fetchlands is pushing it
Recent lists do 9 but 10 is plenty doable.
As GoST- said 10 fetches are very doable, the only issue i see with your fetch count is that your wooded foothills may become dead occasionally. You only have 5 lands you can fetch out with them versus the 6 you can fetch out with misty and 7 with windswept heath. You may want to switch one of those foothills into a flooded strand to reduce the likelihood of running out of lands to fetch. Either that or you could cut a fetch in favor of a botanical sanctum which may be good given the mainboard clique.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Also, side note, how does one stop being a "Just Getting Started"
Would/do you run any? I like them when cracking a fetch late game, when 2 life can really matter.