Haha okay I haven't seen that brought in against knightfall, but good call. I'm not sure what deck wants spellskite for this matchup, but the tactic does work!
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Guys, how can I further improve my matchup against tron, jund, twin, burn, affinity and merfolk?
I'm still debating if I should -1 garden temple and +1 sejiri steppe.
I'm thinking of Grand Abolisher to fully protect the combo. What do you guys think? Something like this instead for the creature line:
With 4 courser ensures that I can still combo if my life is less than 6 while my opponent is still at full 20 life, I would even gain life instead if there's 2 courser when I'm comboing.
These suggestions are all assuming the zoo-retreat type builds, rather than hatebears, though I am recommending a few particular bears anyway.
Against tron you can run stony silence and aven mindcensor to force them to draw lands naturally. Probably burrenton forge-tender to shut off their pyroclasm. Gaddock Teeg to fight karn or ugin. They will run relic of progenitus so maybe going fast and aggressive is the best plan rather than setting up the combo. Retreat to tap wurmcoils.
Against burn again burrenton, or kor firewalker, or leyline of sanctity. Leyline also shuts down junds hand disruption and liliana's ultimate.
Against twin trust in qasali pridemage to wreck the enchantment, or path the exarch. Both should be maindeck anyway. A funny and obscure option would be leyline of singularity, but so narrow...lol
Against affinity stony silence to stop plating, ravager, and overseer (and citadels from tapping for mana too). Your own pyroclasm (or firespout to hit just their flyers).
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
Off topic: with the discussion of the possibility of stoneforge mystic might be getting unban, do you guys think it is possible to include him in knightfall as well? If so, how would you guys build it? Or we siding in more artifact hate to counter them would be the better move?
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I think the deck would be better off playing her rather than diluting our aggressive game plan to take care of her. The play is still weak to Kommand and can result in a tempo loss; I think we would need to run a couple dispels sideboard to protect it on turn 4 (this dispel can also protect the knightfall combo, requiring them to have mana for extra removal or a counter). So the dispel has some utility and can be played on curve.
The question becomes "what gets cut". Does she replace goyf in both variants, and we replace 2x Elspeth/Retreat with Sword/Batterskull.?
I think the stoneforge mystic plan is more weak to removal of SM before you can drop batterskull. If you're just digging up a sword then artifact removal is still a thing, but if you go grab Bskull, she gets bolted, now you're hanging onto something you can't cast for 3 more turns. Ideally we'd like to be punching them in the mouth or setting up the combo instead.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
Off topic: with the discussion of the possibility of stoneforge mystic might be getting unban, do you guys think it is possible to include him in knightfall as well? If so, how would you guys build it? Or we siding in more artifact hate to counter them would be the better move?
I think the deck would be better off playing her rather than diluting our aggressive game plan to take care of her. The play is still weak to Kommand and can result in a tempo loss; I think we would need to run a couple dispels sideboard to protect it on turn 4 (this dispel can also protect the knightfall combo, requiring them to have mana for extra removal or a counter). So the dispel has some utility and can be played on curve.
The question becomes "what gets cut". Does she replace goyf in both variants, and we replace 2x Elspeth/Retreat with Sword/Batterskull.?
I think the stoneforge mystic plan is more weak to removal of SM before you can drop batterskull. If you're just digging up a sword then artifact removal is still a thing, but if you go grab Bskull, she gets bolted, now you're hanging onto something you can't cast for 3 more turns. Ideally we'd like to be punching them in the mouth or setting up the combo instead.
Remember that banlist discussion is not allowed outside of the official thread. This is to keep deck development focused on what is already in Modern, not on what can be in it and what can be removed. I'm just giving a verbal warning to the thread instead of individual warnings because sometimes people forget that unbanning is part of banlist discussion.
Anything after this, however, will get warned/infracted accordingly. Carry on!
Nice to see how the two lists are slightly different but both get to the same point in terms of maindeck and sideboard variability. I prefer the second list myself, but maybe going -1 Qasali Pridemage +1 Loxodon Smiter. Depends on the meta I guess.
Yep the main 60 in the second is pretty close to my own, just -1 qasali, +1 retreat as far as spells go. The manabase is a bit different tho. I really like running the 4th retreat, but I can see why people might not want to draw the second one in a game that one can't get/keep a knight in play.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Yep the main 60 in the second is pretty close to my own, just -1 qasali, +1 retreat as far as spells go. The manabase is a bit different tho. I really like running the 4th retreat, but I can see why people might not want to draw the second one in a game that one can't get/keep a knight in play.
Oh shoot, I didn't even notice the three retreats! I like 4 and don't mind boarding them out. If the game is going to be grindy and they have a ton of ways to remove it and our creatures (ie: BG/x) then I'll just take some out for better options.
What is the best sweeper we have against merfolk and token? Supreme verdict and EE? I have 3 slot in my side that I'm thinking of having sweeper having sweeper in there since we can easily come back with the number of creature we have..
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What is the best sweeper we have against merfolk and token? Supreme verdict and EE? I have 3 slot in my side that I'm thinking of having sweeper having sweeper in there since we can easily come back with the number of creature we have..
EE on 2 has been sweet for me against merfolk, granted it's still a hard match up.
By cutting collected company to 2, i able to make space for more useful creature in the deck. A turn 1 dork into turn 2 retreat, turn 3 if my dork is not bolted, with a fetch I could cast dragonlord dromoka that can't be countered and prevent opponent from casting anything during my turn when I turn 4 knight combo out OR I could cast collected company. With 4 kitchen finks and 2 courser I should be able to maintain a high life count when comboing. Dromoka on her own could end the game by herself too if she's not removed. And with 8 dork the deck should be fairly easy to cast the 6 CMC dromoka in theory. What do you guys think? Sideboard wise I have 1 EE (i only have 1) and 2 can't be countered supreme verdict to sweep before dropping dromoka and knight to combo. By the way, does legendary feeds tarmo?
You beat grixis by removing clunky dromokas and playing some geist of saint traft and maybe 2 Smiters over 2 Finks. Chalice of the Void on 1 ruins their tempo as well until they draw into Kom, but shutting down visions and scour slows that down too.
Pridemage > Skite, but if the opponent has a Skite out just swing aggressive until it breaks. You can still pump Knight little by little and drain their life from Skite activations and beats.
You beat grixis by removing clunky dromokas and playing some geist of saint traft and maybe 2 Smiters over 2 Finks. Chalice of the Void on 1 ruins their tempo as well until they draw into Kom, but shutting down visions and scour slows that down too.
Pridemage > Skite, but if the opponent has a Skite out just swing aggressive until it breaks. You can still pump Knight little by little and drain their life from Skite activations and beats.
Is there no other way to beat grixis control other than having Geist and Smiter and chalice?
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Grixis is an easy matchup for Bant Coco Knightfall. Lightning Bolt simply isn't that good versus us. They don't have removal for Retreat. Cards I play in my list which are great in the matchup include scavenging ooze, voice of resurgence, loxodon smiter and geist of saint traft - which are absent from your maindeck. I've never heard of chalice in this deck as chalice on one eliminates our only removal. Supreme verdict in the side is entirely confusing (and almost certainly incorrect) in a list with 28 creatures.
I see you list has some choices that have not shown up in any placing lists, such as dragonlord dromoka and courser of kruphix. You are also playing 4 maindeck copies of finks, which is not a card we want to be playing in many matchups including Grixis. If you check out the decks with finishes on Modo, we are starting to see a pattern of what the main 60 should look like. Courser and (especially 4) finks just don't make the maindeck cut.
I get that everyone wants to be creative with their lists, but we have evidence of what works. I encourage everyone to have a look at the lists I posted on the last page for reference for what is proven to work. If your list isn't working out, maybe try going closer to the lists that do work.
Grixis is easy for us. Just jam creatures and company until you overwhelm the board or tactically arrive at your combo in a spot they can't interact.
True, I don't know if chalice works here, but in hatebears a chalice on one wrecks grixis and burn, shutting down almost a third of their decks. I didn't notice Scooze wasn't main deck though; that'd help the match a lot since there are usually a few creatures in the yard when he hits. Not counting the goyfs, I see about 6 spots you could use to make adjustments (3x Dromoka, 2 Finks, 1 Pridemage). I would move some value creatures into those spots and then that will free the sideboard up for some other hate-tech. Dromoka is good in standard, but for 6 mana the card is underwhelming in modern. The opponent will play whatever they were going to play in response to him, or just take care of him on their turn.
Stevo is right, we all like to try and be creative, but deck building ends up being about resource management. Some of the cards you didn't include look underwhelming on paper when you look at what other decks are doing, but they over perform within the context of this deck, I'd give them a try.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Unflinching Courage
4 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Negate
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
Guys, how can I further improve my matchup against tron, jund, twin, burn, affinity and merfolk?
I'm still debating if I should -1 garden temple and +1 sejiri steppe.
I'm thinking of Grand Abolisher to fully protect the combo. What do you guys think? Something like this instead for the creature line:
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Grand Abolisher
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
With 4 courser ensures that I can still combo if my life is less than 6 while my opponent is still at full 20 life, I would even gain life instead if there's 2 courser when I'm comboing.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Against tron you can run stony silence and aven mindcensor to force them to draw lands naturally. Probably burrenton forge-tender to shut off their pyroclasm. Gaddock Teeg to fight karn or ugin. They will run relic of progenitus so maybe going fast and aggressive is the best plan rather than setting up the combo. Retreat to tap wurmcoils.
Against burn again burrenton, or kor firewalker, or leyline of sanctity. Leyline also shuts down junds hand disruption and liliana's ultimate.
Against twin trust in qasali pridemage to wreck the enchantment, or path the exarch. Both should be maindeck anyway. A funny and obscure option would be leyline of singularity, but so narrow...lol
Against affinity stony silence to stop plating, ravager, and overseer (and citadels from tapping for mana too). Your own pyroclasm (or firespout to hit just their flyers).
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
The question becomes "what gets cut". Does she replace goyf in both variants, and we replace 2x Elspeth/Retreat with Sword/Batterskull.?
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Remember that banlist discussion is not allowed outside of the official thread. This is to keep deck development focused on what is already in Modern, not on what can be in it and what can be removed. I'm just giving a verbal warning to the thread instead of individual warnings because sometimes people forget that unbanning is part of banlist discussion.
Anything after this, however, will get warned/infracted accordingly. Carry on!
Another finish for my pet version of the deck (Bant Coco Knightfall). Gavony over kessig I disagree with, but hey, it worked.
And another one here. This one features both kessig and gavony.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
EE on 2 has been sweet for me against merfolk, granted it's still a hard match up.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
And how do we beat grixis control? The version that run the flip jace, 6-8 hand disruption and 4 terminate 4 lightning bolt.
And how do we combo out when opponent have a spellskite?
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Prademage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Stomping Ground
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
2 Supreme Verdict
By cutting collected company to 2, i able to make space for more useful creature in the deck. A turn 1 dork into turn 2 retreat, turn 3 if my dork is not bolted, with a fetch I could cast dragonlord dromoka that can't be countered and prevent opponent from casting anything during my turn when I turn 4 knight combo out OR I could cast collected company. With 4 kitchen finks and 2 courser I should be able to maintain a high life count when comboing. Dromoka on her own could end the game by herself too if she's not removed. And with 8 dork the deck should be fairly easy to cast the 6 CMC dromoka in theory. What do you guys think? Sideboard wise I have 1 EE (i only have 1) and 2 can't be countered supreme verdict to sweep before dropping dromoka and knight to combo. By the way, does legendary feeds tarmo?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Pridemage > Skite, but if the opponent has a Skite out just swing aggressive until it breaks. You can still pump Knight little by little and drain their life from Skite activations and beats.
Is there no other way to beat grixis control other than having Geist and Smiter and chalice?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I see you list has some choices that have not shown up in any placing lists, such as dragonlord dromoka and courser of kruphix. You are also playing 4 maindeck copies of finks, which is not a card we want to be playing in many matchups including Grixis. If you check out the decks with finishes on Modo, we are starting to see a pattern of what the main 60 should look like. Courser and (especially 4) finks just don't make the maindeck cut.
I get that everyone wants to be creative with their lists, but we have evidence of what works. I encourage everyone to have a look at the lists I posted on the last page for reference for what is proven to work. If your list isn't working out, maybe try going closer to the lists that do work.
Grixis is easy for us. Just jam creatures and company until you overwhelm the board or tactically arrive at your combo in a spot they can't interact.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Stevo is right, we all like to try and be creative, but deck building ends up being about resource management. Some of the cards you didn't include look underwhelming on paper when you look at what other decks are doing, but they over perform within the context of this deck, I'd give them a try.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo