Yeah I have no problems with Simics, its just a matter of go faster, or slower with the deck and if you want a more reactive plan, which simic can also help with via hexproof, but not as well as Remands or something, personal preference thing.
So if we are going with the theme of 3-drop midrange to go along with Collected company, I thought I'd collect all the modern playable 3 or fewer costed cards we could throw in (That I could easily find, I'm sure I'm missing some).
Honestly those are the only 2 landfall cards that really stood out to me. Maybe things'll change in BFZ.
This is, of course, not counting the mana dorks (birds and hierarch) or spells. We probably won't find much room for spells, though. We might be able to use some 1 mana counter cards (We do have Snapcaster mage for 2 mana).
As far as removal/misc. Most people are Path, Simic/Bant charms, Dromoka's command, Serum Visions, and Commune with the gods. Not sure how I feel about a tutor but I suppose it could help. I'd much rather play something that gives me card advantage instead of just replacing itself, but it works, I suppose.
If you are playing a midrange strategy with Goyf, I really can't recomend Commune with the gods enough. It assembles your combo, and lets you easily cast Knights as 5/5s on turn 3. Goyfs get sweet buffs too. The synergy is real.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
A thought I had is that this deck is going to be vulnerable to Abrupt Decay - both combo pieces are targets for that card. If this deck is not focused on aggro leading into the combo mid-game, we're not likely to draw out the abrupt decays before trying to plant the retreat to coralhelm. Sejiri steppe doesn't help if abrupt decay is on the stack on top of the untap trigger. I'm feeling like the combo is very vulnerable to blowouts from that card - which is why I feel like drawing out abrupt decays early should be accounted for in one's strategy.
How do you guys see this deck beating abrupt decay?
edit: Moreover, how do you beat any removal mid-combo when the untap trigger is on the stack?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Seems like the definition of cute when scenario two gets covered by running a one of Sejiri Steppe and scenario one gets isn't a game winner, especially considering that you want to combo off so bad in your build that you should probably be digging for the combo on turn 2 with commune with the gods instead of spending that turn getting in for 7, only IF you're lynx doesn't get chumped. I mean you're running 4 drift of phantasm, it's like you're deck is all about the combo except when you decide "hey I'll get in for a lot with a pump spell and a steppe lynx instead of advancing my actual gameplan". You'd be far better served by running more counterspells to protect your combo plus avoid getting blown out by the combos of your opponents or running more spells that dig for the combo. Hell, if you're going all in I'd run Courser of Kruphix in place of Undergrowth Champion to help you combo off without killing yourself. That said, this is all hypothetical, as I think going all in on the combo is a HUGE MISTAKE. If you're running Steppe Lynx, you should be getting real aggressive with collected company, Geist of Saint Traft, and friends. If you're going to run stuff like Lotus Cobra, Serum Visions, and Drift of phantasms you should just stick to making your combo consistent and leave the Steppe Lynx to the Collected Company builds. Frankly, you just can't have both and expect to have even half of the strength that each build brings to the table individually.
And I agree that tarmogoyf isn't necessarily the best in bant decks, I was merely saying that in a hypothetical situation in which you had to pick between undergrowth champion and tarmogoyf for this deck, you'd be picking tarmogoyf every day of the week.
A thought I had is that this deck is going to be vulnerable to Abrupt Decay - both combo pieces are targets for that card. If this deck is not focused on aggro leading into the combo mid-game, we're not likely to draw out the abrupt decays before trying to plant the retreat to coralhelm. Sejiri steppe doesn't help if abrupt decay is on the stack on top of the untap trigger. I'm feeling like the combo is very vulnerable to blowouts from that card - which is why I feel like drawing out abrupt decays early should be accounted for in one's strategy.
How do you guys see this deck beating abrupt decay?
edit: Moreover, how do you beat any removal mid-combo when the untap trigger is on the stack?
This decks best friend is leaving a fetch land off to the side to fetch with in response to removal. That's how I deal with it, wait till I have an uncracked fetch than go for it. Fetch in response, untap knight, grab Sejiri Steppe.
Ok, I guess if you are reading removal in your opponent's hand (terminate, abrupt decay, path, etc) you have to wait until you have an uncracked fetch in play to go for it? Fairly significant drawback imo. I really can't wait to get my hands on these retreat to coralhelm to see how onerous that will be.
Getting blown out after paying a bunch of life to fetches and shocks is a big fear here.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The tango lands however are interesting, If we end up with enough room in the list I could see going up to a critical mass of 12 fetchlands to make sure we can reliably fetch out 2 basics so when we combo off we're only losing life from fetch lands when we go off. That manabase almost certainly disqualifies Wild Nacatl from the list however, as fetching on turn 2 into an red/white tango land to get her up to a 3/3 means you aren't getting to play a 2 drop. Then again maybe all we'd need is to add 1 Sacred Foundry to the list just to make it work. I believe some balance between them could be struck because once retreat is out we can knight out the 2 basics necessary to set up the tango lands easy that sac the third land for fetch into tango until you've cycled through them all. Drawing an opener with only tangolands would be a nightmare though as suddenly you're playing with guildgates.... There are many lines to consider here. Too many fetches and not enough targets for them means you can't effectively cycle through your manabase as well so going to 12 may be excessive.
I can confirm that Tango lands work well. My happy medium is at 3-5 tangos, 10-12 fetches, and fill out the rest with basics and utility. Your odds of drawing two tangos in your starting 8 (7+1) is 13-4%. Its small enough to be negligible. The only real question when it comes to using this mana base is whether or not you need access to both AA and BB on turn 2. Tango+fetches can't pull that off reasonably. If you can get by on AB till turn three, then tango lands are amazing.
Glad to hear this input, I think this deck is easily capable of working off of AB until turn three with Wild Nacatl is replaced with Steppe Lynx, so tango lands are probably the way to go. That said, I'd like to have at least one to two shocks hanging around for emergencies. Where's the room though! I'm still partial to running some amount of lightning bolt, though having that fourth color be anything more than a splash for Kessig Wolf Run makes it difficult to be reliably get off early bolts. The mana base is for sure the most difficult aspect of this deck, and my experience with coco decks tells me that we desperately want 3-4 extra removal spells. Maybe Dromoka's command? I'd prefer one mana answers good on an empty board though.
Ok, I guess if you are reading removal in your opponent's hand (terminate, abrupt decay, path, etc) you have to wait until you have an uncracked fetch in play to go for it? Fairly significant drawback imo. I really can't wait to get my hands on these retreat to coralhelm to see how onerous that will be.
Getting blown out after paying a bunch of life to fetches and shocks is a big fear here.
If they've let you go off you can pretty much fetch with knight in such a way that you always have a fetch to use at the end of the combo if need be, the most vulnerable part of the combo is when you go for the first knight sac if you haven't played a fetch from your hand. I'd say. That sort of dispels that fear for you I hope.
I'm not sure on the sequencing - I'll probably have to play the deck a few times to really understand the sequencing of the fetching.
For instance, if you spend your first two turns fetching a forest and plains to play a turn 1 noble and turn 2 knight, you can play a fetch to protect the knight and still jam retreat to coralhelm on turn 3, but now if you sac one of the basics to the knight, you won't be able to activate tangolands.
Tangolands should probably be kept to a minimum as a result - you need mana to put into kessig wolf run.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
A thought I had is that this deck is going to be vulnerable to Abrupt Decay - both combo pieces are targets for that card. If this deck is not focused on aggro leading into the combo mid-game, we're not likely to draw out the abrupt decays before trying to plant the retreat to coralhelm. Sejiri steppe doesn't help if abrupt decay is on the stack on top of the untap trigger. I'm feeling like the combo is very vulnerable to blowouts from that card - which is why I feel like drawing out abrupt decays early should be accounted for in one's strategy.
How do you guys see this deck beating abrupt decay?
edit: Moreover, how do you beat any removal mid-combo when the untap trigger is on the stack?
To play around decay on turn 3 when you go off, if you go off that early, try to play a fetchland after playing retreat. That way you have a 'floating' land that you can get to untap knight and find a sejiri steppe. Or if they decay the retreat, you can sac and get a land to continue the cycling.
Edit: also simic charm, which I really like out of the board.
- This deck IS NOT A PURE COMBO DECK. Look at modern day Twin and see how it operates. This deck has the potential for a worse combo, but better beatdown. This is the same way Abzan Company works, and when it works it works well.
- This deck IS NOT A PURE COMBO DECK. Look at modern day Twin and see how it operates. This deck has the potential for a worse combo, but better beatdown. This is the same way Abzan Company works, and when it works it works well.
The OP just said that.
You've clearly misunderstood. This deck can either be a beat down deck with combo simply present to draw into (AKA Torpf's description of the deck, not this hot mess of Drift of Phantasms and Steppe Lynx together), or it can be focused on consistently winning with the combo. You can't go 60% into combo and 40% into beat down when you should be going 90% into beat down and 10% into combo or 90% into combo and 10% into beatdown. You can't win consistently when half your decks cards are trying to enable 2 different things, 2 entirely different ways to win whose only connection is a vague synergy of landfall. With that said I also agree with Torpf that making this a pure combo deck is probably a mistake anyway which leaves the beatdown shell left to build around. I'm trying to help you out here, you can take my advice or leave it my friend but please do not blaim me if you're deck is less successful due to your disregard of basic deck building strategies. Of course this post will be great if I eat my foot because you top 8 the next Modern GP with this list but I sincerely doubt you will.
What I look at, is look at the pure creature rush approach. Unless you have something that can get broken (Merfolk, Elves) it's not top level stuff.
Then I look at the all in combo (Twin) and thats fallen to the wayside as well, its just not resilient enough without backup.
Yeah I have no problems with Simics, its just a matter of go faster, or slower with the deck and if you want a more reactive plan, which simic can also help with via hexproof, but not as well as Remands or something, personal preference thing.
Spirits
Honestly those are the only 2 landfall cards that really stood out to me. Maybe things'll change in BFZ.
This is, of course, not counting the mana dorks (birds and hierarch) or spells. We probably won't find much room for spells, though. We might be able to use some 1 mana counter cards (We do have Snapcaster mage for 2 mana).
As far as removal/misc. Most people are Path, Simic/Bant charms, Dromoka's command, Serum Visions, and Commune with the gods. Not sure how I feel about a tutor but I suppose it could help. I'd much rather play something that gives me card advantage instead of just replacing itself, but it works, I suppose.
- Manite
How do you guys see this deck beating abrupt decay?
edit: Moreover, how do you beat any removal mid-combo when the untap trigger is on the stack?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Seems like the definition of cute when scenario two gets covered by running a one of Sejiri Steppe and scenario one gets isn't a game winner, especially considering that you want to combo off so bad in your build that you should probably be digging for the combo on turn 2 with commune with the gods instead of spending that turn getting in for 7, only IF you're lynx doesn't get chumped. I mean you're running 4 drift of phantasm, it's like you're deck is all about the combo except when you decide "hey I'll get in for a lot with a pump spell and a steppe lynx instead of advancing my actual gameplan". You'd be far better served by running more counterspells to protect your combo plus avoid getting blown out by the combos of your opponents or running more spells that dig for the combo. Hell, if you're going all in I'd run Courser of Kruphix in place of Undergrowth Champion to help you combo off without killing yourself. That said, this is all hypothetical, as I think going all in on the combo is a HUGE MISTAKE. If you're running Steppe Lynx, you should be getting real aggressive with collected company, Geist of Saint Traft, and friends. If you're going to run stuff like Lotus Cobra, Serum Visions, and Drift of phantasms you should just stick to making your combo consistent and leave the Steppe Lynx to the Collected Company builds. Frankly, you just can't have both and expect to have even half of the strength that each build brings to the table individually.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
This decks best friend is leaving a fetch land off to the side to fetch with in response to removal. That's how I deal with it, wait till I have an uncracked fetch than go for it. Fetch in response, untap knight, grab Sejiri Steppe.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Getting blown out after paying a bunch of life to fetches and shocks is a big fear here.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Glad to hear this input, I think this deck is easily capable of working off of AB until turn three with Wild Nacatl is replaced with Steppe Lynx, so tango lands are probably the way to go. That said, I'd like to have at least one to two shocks hanging around for emergencies. Where's the room though! I'm still partial to running some amount of lightning bolt, though having that fourth color be anything more than a splash for Kessig Wolf Run makes it difficult to be reliably get off early bolts. The mana base is for sure the most difficult aspect of this deck, and my experience with coco decks tells me that we desperately want 3-4 extra removal spells. Maybe Dromoka's command? I'd prefer one mana answers good on an empty board though.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
If they've let you go off you can pretty much fetch with knight in such a way that you always have a fetch to use at the end of the combo if need be, the most vulnerable part of the combo is when you go for the first knight sac if you haven't played a fetch from your hand. I'd say. That sort of dispels that fear for you I hope.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
For instance, if you spend your first two turns fetching a forest and plains to play a turn 1 noble and turn 2 knight, you can play a fetch to protect the knight and still jam retreat to coralhelm on turn 3, but now if you sac one of the basics to the knight, you won't be able to activate tangolands.
Tangolands should probably be kept to a minimum as a result - you need mana to put into kessig wolf run.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Simic Charm
Edit: also simic charm, which I really like out of the board.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spellskite
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
Instants (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Negate/Path to Exile/Commune with the Gods
Lands (22)
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Tectonic Edge
1 red source
18 other lands
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Dispel
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Worship
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Path to Exile
Except that:
The OP just said that.
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Eternal Witness
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Birds of Paradise
Noncreature Spells 13
3 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Stomping Ground
1 Cinder Glade
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothill
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Prairie Stream
2 Canopy Vista
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Choke
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spellskite
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Scavenging Ooze
Alright this is starting to shape up plus I think this gets better once we get the simic tango in Oath.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10veMmh5Ds0i0Jhb3UJ_oaRA14Ybk8ll2bU4x2iiUEPU/edit#gid=1862430835
You've clearly misunderstood. This deck can either be a beat down deck with combo simply present to draw into (AKA Torpf's description of the deck, not this hot mess of Drift of Phantasms and Steppe Lynx together), or it can be focused on consistently winning with the combo. You can't go 60% into combo and 40% into beat down when you should be going 90% into beat down and 10% into combo or 90% into combo and 10% into beatdown. You can't win consistently when half your decks cards are trying to enable 2 different things, 2 entirely different ways to win whose only connection is a vague synergy of landfall. With that said I also agree with Torpf that making this a pure combo deck is probably a mistake anyway which leaves the beatdown shell left to build around. I'm trying to help you out here, you can take my advice or leave it my friend but please do not blaim me if you're deck is less successful due to your disregard of basic deck building strategies. Of course this post will be great if I eat my foot because you top 8 the next Modern GP with this list but I sincerely doubt you will.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Then I look at the all in combo (Twin) and thats fallen to the wayside as well, its just not resilient enough without backup.
That leads me to this kind of thing.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Canopy Vista
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
4 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Kessig Wolf Run
//16 Main Deck
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Commune with the Gods
//12 Protection Toolkit
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Simic Charm
2 Dispel
4 Remand
2 Ojutai's Command
2 Dispel
2 Naturalize
2 Feed the Clan
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kor Firewalker
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Collected Company
It's similar to how I set up my Grixis Twin, but we have more beats, less (next to no) direct removal. Too much durdle, not enough reach perhaps?
Spirits