I think your manabase is suboptimal, right now you have 16 black sources which is not enough to support a turn 3 LoTV/LtLH. Given that you run 6 Lili PWs this is absolutely crucial. You could count FoR as black sources as well, but you get to activate it the soonest on turn 3, so this is not a good thing to do. 8 blue sources without FoR is also way too few. You want to be able to snapcaster + discard/push on turn 3, and you cannot do that. Your green sources are alright (15).
I would dumb FoR completely and play more fetchlands. 6 basics is also too many, I would settle for 4-max 5.
Thanks for the quick reply! Yeah, I did wonder if FoR was pushing it a bit in a 3-colour deck. I guess that's one of the draws of straight GB.
1st of all, he is on 4 Snapcaster Mage. Since the unbanning of Jace, Sultai Midrange has held a general consensus that Snapcaster Mage is arguably the worst card in the deck (Sultai Midrange). The Modern BUG Reddit is littered with comments about this. Having access to Assassin's Trophy doesn't change this. Too many people think of Sultai Midrange as some UB deck with Goyf and Todd Stevens is the biggest offender in such regard. He is historically the last professional player second to Hoogland that I would listen to when it comes to Sultai in Modern. I will always listen to people that actively play Sultai Midrange in Modern before I listen to a large number of the professional players who very likely have not put in anywhere near the same amount of reps with the archetype.
Todd's deck is not Sultai Midrange, that is Sultai Control. Liliana of the Veil is hot garbage in Control decks and has historically found her way into them as a 3 mana removal spell that has a repeat option and those decks have not graced modern in some time - for good reason. So while I see the merits of his argument, I can also tell that you are trying to compare apples to oranges here. Blue in Sultai Midrange, via Snapcaster Mage, is looking to inflate value on converting used resources through the graveyard. That is a very different role than something like Search for Azcanta that is looking to inflate resources by generating true card advantage. There are two very different fundamentals. LotV in this sense, is not at odds with Snapcaster Mage. Sultai Midrange is literally focused on stripping resources while simultaneously advancing a board on the cheap and Liliana lets you do this quite effectively with bother her +1 and -2 and in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage you are allowed to offset parity while doing so. That is a completely different game plan than what Todd Steven's deck is trying to do, which is trade resources and refill as you pivot from a reactive game to a proactive game.
2nd, while I don't mind talking about pivoting the deck to more of a control style, I would like to remind you that while Sultai Midrange may not be well represented... this thread is for what has been established as a GBu Midrange archetype - and what has established this thread are multiple SCG Open top 16's, multiple 5-0 deck lists, and I believe 2 top 8 1ks decklists. So the notion that the discussion in here really isn't working off anything is not accurate. I have continued to notice that you seem to habitually discount that, for reasons unknown.
Is the control variant more effective with the addition of Assassin's Trophy? Who knows. Maybe, it is worth working on. Is this thread for the un-established control variant? Not based on the intent behind structuring the forums the way they have here on MTGSalvation.
@Superna7ural It seems we have a disagreement and this is fine by me. But Sultai is not in anyway an established archetype in modern by my understanding, nor has this threat a strict requirement for which midrange version to talk about here. In my mind, this is nitpicking whether this deck is now UBg or GBu, in my mind there is no correct way yet. There is surely a difference in Control and Midrange, but again, the differences are marginal atm (simply due to trophy) and in my mind it wouldn't make sense to actively exclude any version from discussion and seperate them because many thoughts of midrange sultai can surely be helpful for control and vice versa. We are on the verge of a possible real sultai archetype getting defined, so by my understanding, all is pretty much up in the air. You can surely claim that some specific versions have been more successful in the past, but in my mind this doesn't mean much unless we can see consistant positive results. This is not to be mean, this is just not how you can define an established deck.
Do you have links to the decklists you mentioned? I am interested to see the builds and the exact time when they have been succesful. Was this in a short period of time? Or was this on a bigger stretch? Which banlist was the active one? As far as I know, Sultai had some results when Twin was still legal, but it was still a Sultai Control variant, rather than Midrange.
EDIT: The very first post of this threat even shows the Sultai Control list I was referring to be succesful in the Twin era, so, I guess this threat is surely fine to talk about control variants.
@Superna7ural It seems we have a disagreement and this is fine by me. But Sultai is not in anyway an established archetype in modern by my understanding, nor has this threat a strict requirement for which midrange version to talk about here. In my mind, this is nitpicking whether this deck is now UBg or GBu, in my mind there is no correct way yet. There is surely a difference in Control and Midrange, but again, the differences are marginal atm (simply due to trophy) and in my mind it wouldn't make sense to actively exclude any version from discussion and seperate them because many thoughts of midrange sultai can surely be helpful for control and vice versa. We are on the verge of a possible real sultai archetype getting defined, so by my understanding, all is pretty much up in the air. You can surely claim that some specific versions have been more successful in the past, but in my mind this doesn't mean much unless we can see consistant positive results. This is not to be mean, this is just not how you can define an established deck.
Do you have links to the decklists you mentioned? I am interested to see the builds and the exact time when they have been succesful. Was this in a short period of time? Or was this on a bigger stretch? Which banlist was the active one?
Sultai, in the discussion of the Midrange vs Control, is established. This thread used to be the old Sultai Control thread and was renamed accordingly because of the results that were going up and how the deck shifted. You might see it as nitpicking, but the difference between a BGu core and a UBg core is pretty substantial in how they play out. BG plays a proactive early game into stabilizing reactive cards where UB plays a reactive early game into a stablized proactive game. I have played enough to have experienced how different they are, and they are not marginal at all. BG is far more aggressive than UB. Trophy does not change that in any significant way. The only thing Trophy does is shore up the problem matches the lists below have vs the current modern Climate. It doesnt solve the UB core's issue of having to use bad Tarmos as finishers.
Have these decks continued to have consistent results? Not on the trajectory they had early on... but these lists are far more relevant that Todd Stevens brews which have nowhere near the amount of footing in an arguably exact same Modern meta that existed early in 2018. The decks tapered off in the same fashion as Jund, not because they were inferior to UB cores, but because they BGx had problems that Trophy clearly resolves and in a much better way than it does for Jund.
Sultai Midrange by Nick Moore 1st Place SCG IQ Findlay 3.11.18
I recently made a fairly easy run to the top 8 of a PPTQ with the list I posted a couple of pages back. The deck is still gas in the same way it was earlier in the year. The only difference is now you have outs with Trophy and you can streamline your sideboard WAY more efficiently with Ego. No more having to have 6-8 slots specifically for Tron in your SB. Freeing up space to cut out fat vs your tough matches like Humans and KCI.
Like I said, is the Control the possible future of the deck? Possibly. But this thread is going to progress a lot more efficiently by going back to the basics above which are more established lists. The meta has not shifted in any significant way since early 2018 after the unbanning of JTMS and BBE, that would make these above lists any less effective.
If you can provide a comparable level of results for lists more like that of Todd Stevens, I will open up to the idea.
But at the end of the day, results speak louder than conjecture.
To make clear, I am not saying I am thinking Todd Stevens approach is the correct one, I never said that. Thats not whats my point here. I just think we should not only focus on one particular version with Trophy coming up. Even your lists at least contain several what I would consider different builds, which does maybe give a hint for whats good, but not give yet a fully clear picture.
And my opinion on LoTV still holds pretty much, also in midrange. I think due to trophy snapcaster is a very potent card to run in Sultai (even if you consider it to be the worst blue card in the deck). And since we naturally want to run discard, then snapcaster alongside LotV gets weaker. However, I think Snapcaster works brilliantly together with LtLH. Thats why I am more leaning towards those cards. And besides that, LoTV is in general bad shape for the overall format anyway.
To make clear, I am not saying I am thinking Todd Stevens approach is the correct one, I never said that. Thats not whats my point here. I just think we should not only focus on one particular version with Trophy coming up. Even your lists at least contain several what I would consider different builds, which does maybe give a hint for whats good, but not give yet a fully clear picture.
And my opinion on LoTV still holds pretty much, also in midrange. I think due to trophy snapcaster is a very potent card to run in Sultai (even if you consider it to be the worst blue card in the deck). And since we naturally want to run discard, then snapcaster alongside LotV gets weaker. However, I think Snapcaster works brilliantly together with LtLH. Thats why I am more leaning towards those cards. And besides that, LoTV is in general bad shape for the overall format anyway.
Those lists are pretty congruent save for filler slots - which tend to be cards like Tireless Trackers, Grim Flayers, Dark Confidants, or Scavenging Ooze. None of those cards shift the core of the deck substantially, so "different builds" among the above posted lists is something I would also call into question.
I agree that Trophy adds more value to Snapcaster Mage. My comment about most people finding the card underwhelming is that we don't have much to use him for save for discard. His other options are really not that interesting. Trophy definitely adds value layers to Snapcaster. If you saw my list from the PPTQ you would have noticed I ran 2 and that with Trophy coming up, I am increasing it to 3 copies of Snap. I don't think Trophy packs on so much value to Snap that he is worth a 4 of and completely shifting to things like Cryptic Command though. You still need to have a deck that has a robust offensive line and that is the trick with Sultai as opposed to Jund or Abzan - blue is at odds with the proactive GB strategy.
As a Jund Pilot, I would agree that Liliana is not the most efficient card right now. As a Sultai player, I would say that it provides a much needed board presence at a much needed slot of 3 mana. So I think her place in the meta is actually pretty subjective in that sense. I think LtLH is actually not a great card in this deck. Sure it can fill the yard and stick out some meat, but as someone who has ran her extensively in the SB with Fulminators... her value kind of ends there over the course of an event. I ended up cutting her from the board entirely because she just wasn't that good, even with the Fulminators. Some games I just brought in Fulminators and left her out. I would value something like Garruk, Relentless over her even, and the only match I found him to be strong in is the Jund/Abzan match. As much as I like the option to continue to rebuy threats vs Trophy decks, I think I would just rather run more threats if T1 Discard T2 threats is the gameplan.
I will be closely watching to see how you feel about her, but I never liked her as a board option enough to ever want her main over a lot of other options - especially at 3 mana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
This configuration has been seen in several top 8s so far this summer, but it's literally the only notable showing of anything Sultai in modern since January (that I can find)
-EDIT-
Never mind! Superna has put in much more research than I. Great work.. I'm loving those 9 PW lists with a full 9 discard suite (including main deck Collective Brutality)
It's amazing how the color requirements of these lists completely thwart the Karsten formulas. Thank you for sharing your experience and these lists. I think we should consider rewriting the primer with these lists as the guide line, and still paying homage to the control lists of years past
I want to let you know that I am not trying to really get in your face or anything. Sorry if I am coming off that way, I do owe you an apology for my general attitude towards you in recent posts. I really just want to point out that we have previous information to work with and that I don't think there is any value in just dismissing that.
I can agree to disagree on the correct land count discussion.
But the difference between what Todd Stevens is doing and what all these other lists have been doing, are fundamentally different no matter how similar they may look on paper.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
@Superna7ural No worries, I am not a guy who gets on a personal level when it comes down to discussion (I think this also doesn't make much sense for the sake of being constructive), this is just a pure "we are on different side of things" topic for me.
I have to say I was not quite aware of this information. And I agree it should not be dismissed. The question for me remains what is the key message to gain from that data. These lists where all from the first half of 2018 pretty much. This was pretty much the timeframe where the meta was up in the air due to the unbanning of BBE and Jace. As we know, at the beginning people overplayed Jace and BBE in control and Jund decks first, until they realized that Humans and Hollow One are simply faster, and more consistant than those decks. We have a pretty defined meta right now, which is still wide open, but the top decks are defined. So I would say I am more interested in the decks from june rather those of february and march for that reason.
And also to add, where I am coming from with the controllish strategy, there has been some very recent Modo 5-0 by Jaberwocki playing an UB control deck. Jaberwocki is a very good player with consistant good results which I value very highly. Plus its very recent. And based on that, I thought it might be a good idea to try to just splash green for Goyf and Trophy in that version. I think this could have some merit. I can't share a search link, but you will find the lists on mtgtop8 by searching for him.
@Superna7ural No worries, I am not a guy who gets on a personal level when it comes down to discussion (I think this also doesn't make much sense for the sake of being constructive), this is just a pure "we are on different side of things" topic for me.
I have to say I was not quite aware of this information. And I agree it should not be dismissed. The question for me remains what is the key message to gain from that data. These lists where all from the first half of 2018 pretty much. This was pretty much the timeframe where the meta was up in the air due to the unbanning of BBE and Jace. As we know, at the beginning people overplayed Jace and BBE in control and Jund decks first, until they realized that Humans and Hollow One are simply faster, and more consistant than those decks. We have a pretty defined meta right now, which is still wide open, but the top decks are defined. So I would say I am more interested in the decks from june rather those of february and march for that reason.
The meta really has not shifted much from where it was in February though, that is my point. Se saw these Jace and BBE decks crop up, but the decks that stuck around were the same decks that were there from the start. As a Sultai player from day 1, my experience is about the same as Jund - a very strong deck across the vast majority of the field but not flexible enough to be played without thinning itself out way too much. Both Jund and Sultai were fine decks until you realized that your SB and slot counts get super awkward and inefficient once you try to tackle everything. Todd Anderson and Brad Nelson were actually just talking about this in an offhand comment during a Standard stream. GBx decks are just not flexible when it comes to adapting to meta shifts because there are not enough broad spectrum cards to work with. You end up with clunky SBs where you are jamming 3 Fulminators, 2 Damping Spheres and maybe a LtLH just to try and slow down a Tron deck enough to do something. Or you crumble to KCI unless you overdo your answers and fold to Tron or UW.
These were problems GBx had before Jace was unbanned, during the unbanning phase, and well after. So I think the question really becomes "Why now with GRN?"
To which I really answer: Assassin's Trophy gives your broader coverage to decks like UW, Tron, and even KCI, all while being a mainboard answer. Ego allows us to condense some 6 or so slots down to a mere 3 and is flexible enough to hit both Tron as well as combo decks like KCI, Scapeshift, and so on - while freeing up more slots for matches like Humans, while leaving use with a much cleaner SB plan across the entirety of the format. Which is really what GB needed. Not all that it needed, but a big part of what it needed.
The fact that we have all this previous information from GBx decks makes starting with them more reasonable than reverting to a mere brew with much less data behind it, all for the sake of 1 or 2 cards.
And also to add, where I am coming from with the controllish strategy, there has been some very recent Modo 5-0 by Jaberwocki playing an UB control deck. Jaberwocki is a very good player with consistant good results which I value very highly. Plus its very recent. And based on that, I thought it might be a good idea to try to just splash green for Goyf and Trophy in that version. I think this could have some merit. I can't share a search link, but you will find the lists on mtgtop8 by searching for him.
I have seen the Jaberwocki list. I think it might be a plausible start for something like Sultai Control. Historically though, the main issue with UB Control decks in Modern is a strong way to actually finish out the game. UW is fortunate to have Teferi, a permanent that is quite hard to interact with. UB really doesn't have any of that, and Goyf is not a card that is going to be that solution. It cost less than 4 mana, has no immediate board presence, no evasion to get around the combat zone, nothing. It is just a cheap, dumb dork in a Control shell. I would lean more towards some sort of 4 Color Gifts package in a Sultai Control Shell before I used Goyf to finish the game as a Control deck.
But I digress.
UG cards traditionally lean towards more tempo oriented play. UB cards traditionally lean towards reactive play. BG traditionally leans towards very proactive play. UG is likely the secret to bridging the gap between a BG focus and a UB focus, but there is little to be desired in Modern to help bridge that gap. Which is why we are seeing BG lists that lean into their opponent on turn 1, or UB lists that sit back in the early game. You are going to be hard pressed to find something in between that is effective, because you tend to find that those decks do incredibly awkward things with incredibly divided opening hands and you have to pivot from time to time, in the most inefficient way.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Playtested more with this list against a friend who was on U/W miracles- went 4-2 and another who was playing B/W eldrazi taxes- went 4-0 (although I don't think eldrazi taxes is that great...). I am pretty blown away by how good trophy was- the land it gives, similar to path, is rarely ever relevant- modern is a format more about resources than it is a format that worries about ramping the opponent too much (standard is not like this as it's defined by the bombs). I think trophy may be a more format defining card than people are giving it credit for- it will really force decks to try to be leaner or they will not be able to keep up. Liliana and Jace working in tandem together kind of feels like a prison style gameplan- you get so much flexibility in the way that you want to address the resources that both players are working with- you can deplete resources from your opponent's hand, kill/bounce stuff of of the board, reduce the impact of your opponent's topdecks, sculpt your hand, etc.
Snap-trophy felt like a powerful enough gameplan in itself that I considered going up to 3 snaps- but don't think I have the spell density to really support it. Having that flexibility to kill 2 permanents in 3 turns is really strong. Thought scour also impressed me a lot- it has nice synergy with tasigur, goyf, snapcaster, and jace (you can get yourself out of brainstorm locks by milling yourself after brainstorming). It also provided some value against my U/W opponent- he jace brainstormed, and I suspected that he was hiding some of his better cards on top of his deck- milling him showed me that he had put a teferi on top.
I think tracker is a trap. We have access to Jace- which is far more flexible and powerful in general than a 3/2 for 3. Tracker is just so slow in the modern format without some sort of acceleration or way to play it for free (i.e. I think it's great in ponza because of the ramp package but also hitting it off of BBE is great). It could be worth exploring noble hierarch + tracker, but Tasigur + Jace is enough of a card advantage engine that it's probably unnecessary.
Overall I think this deck is favored vs.
-humans
-affinity and hardened scales
-random janky creature decks
Has even matchups vs.
-U/W/x control
-B/G/x midrange
-spirits
-Graveyard based combo- KCI, Storm
-Burn- we don't hurt ourselves nearly as much without bob, Jace fateseal can shut games out against burn.
Has bad matchups vs.
-Anything with bloodghast (hollow one, vengevine decks)
-Tron- although this matchup is probably slightly more reasonable now- Jace fateseal is also very good against tron if you survive to that stage in the game.
This breakdown is very similar to jund overall- and I think sultai will actually be a playable modern deck post-trophy.
So a couple explanations:
I tried a full on delirium build that was analagous to Abzan Delirium (essentially just had snaps instead of souls) which was pretty solid, especially because with Snap in your deck, Traverse becomes even better. I think this could be another solid approach to the archetype, but I eventually moved away from it because any sort of graveyard hate completely neutered the deck (similar to issues that Mardu Pyro has).
I also tried a Noble Hierarch build. The starts with Noble are actually great and again, it feels really close to being good. The biggest struggle I had was that it suffers from only have 4 mana accelerators and it is hard to build a consistent gameplan around it.
I also tried builds similar to what Hoogland was playing with Delve guys/Thought Scour and just GB splashing for Snap/Counters/Unmoored Ego. I found that I was never happy to have to play Thought Scour, and the Delve guys were good, but playing 4 of them isn't possible without Scour. Snap is obviously a good card, but never felt anywhere near as powerful as he feels in decks with Bolt/Kcommand.
I ended on Grim Flayer because I think that GB has missed something by straight replacing Dark Confidant with Tireless Tracker. While Tracker is obviously insane if the game goes even decently long, what she ISN'T is a 2 drop. I think the deck really wanted another turn 2 proactive play. Grim Flayer doesn't have the synergies that he does in Abzan, but he can still clock people and filter our draws nicely while easily coming down on turn 2 (which is really why I'm taking him).
I'm playing Jace while most others aren't. The double blue is definitely rough, I know I'm making sacrifices by playing him (no Scavenging Ooze is the big one). But I think that BGx and UWx decks are going to pick up in the near future, and Jace is good against both of them. Also, getting countersquall against UW is another thing that this deck has over the other BG variants. Getting to protect against Terminus is a big deal.
I'll obviously keep testing and if you guys have any questions/criticisms I'll be happy to to listen to them. I'll do my best to justify my choices.
So although I am not a fan of Hoogland, he did try some Sultai brews and I watched him playing them. I think he did not play well, but overall I was not impressed by the other options he had available pretty much always. He wants to try a UB splashing Trophy version also, which does seem to have more potential. UB struggles a bit with dealing with certain kind of permanents, which could be an upgrade, but it could also just be a worse Jaberwocki list (which is pretty decent already) since it got worse mana. I am still in the testing phase of trying Goyf alongside Trophy in this shell, but can't say anything myself yet.
How would you approach this Ayiluss? I am thinking basically dropping Cryptics (since triple blue is kinda hard in 3 colours) and Cast down for some trophies (from the initial Jaberwocki list).
I did not like how Jeff Hoogland played Sultai Rock, nor did I like the deck list. 25 lands is too much, especially when the highest CMC was 3. Also, running 6 basics and 5 man lands is too much. I get it, it's an experiment, but it did not work. I could continue to point out bad plays and commentary I disagree with, but I'll leave it alone. link below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiR3Mk8JGrE
I do think his performance does show that Sultai needs to establish its own identity. We can't throw some islands and snapcaster mage into a GB rock deck. We can't play a blue version of Jund. I still think we can make Charnel Troll a thing with Architects of Will and Street Wraith. I should have a deck list up by Wednesday for this idea. Will keep you guys posted!
PS- Hoogland needed to utilize Unmoored Ego more. How do you not bring it in to stop Reveler and Young Pyromancer against Mardu is just beyond me.
I agree that his performance with the deck and the decklist overall should not be representative for the overall strategy. I disagree with a lot of those.
However, I am not sure I would bring in Ego vs Pyromancer. Its not that the deck is dead if you hit one.
Discard should be more then enough to cut off unfettered use of Reveler (the only card I would remotely consider using Unmoored Ego on in their list), and this deck has plenty of removal to kill a pyromancer the moment it drops should it resolve.
Discard should be more then enough to cut off unfettered use of Reveler (the only card I would remotely consider using Unmoored Ego on in their list), and this deck has plenty of removal to kill a pyromancer the moment it drops should it resolve.
firtst of all discard doesnt do anything vs the top of the deck.Mardu pyro has 3 to 5 ways to win the game.Pyro tokens,lingering souls,reveler beatdowns and sometimes walkers.the later 2 can be dealt so easy with AT.With ego i would just name lingering.You deal with 1/3 of their deck with just one card.
How does Trophy solve the plague UB has, that is a lack of an efficient modern playable finisher?
UB cant remove problematic permanents(walkers artifacts enchantments big creatures) AT deals with all of those . More over goyf is the perfect finisher(i would like to try tusks in the main like fabiano's list from 2015 )
Gofy is arguably one of the most susceptible creatures to Modern removal spells in the entire format, in terms of playable creatures. He slots into decks where there isn't enough going on around him to continually absorb removal. He cost less than 3 mana. He is 1 color. He isn't a black creature. He doesn't have hexproof. He doesn't have flying. He doesn't have trample... He is a cheap dork with no evasion and no protection and his toughness is based on other factors meaning he does indeed sometime even die to Lightning Bolt. He is best when other things are eating those kinds of spells increasing the odds that he can actually put in an 8 hour shift.
There is something to say about conventional wisdom and groupthink pitfalls, that often go completely unobserved in collective discussions like this.
Goyf is, and always has been, an attrition creature. There is a reason he works well in creature based decks and with discard and why he is less efficient in blue decks with disruption like counter magic. Counterspells are not attrition cards. Control decks are also not so much attrition based as they are preparation based. They reward set ups, not grindy maneuvering.
Tying this in with the discussion previously had about Sultai and why the deck is constantly at odds with itself based on color pairings and color pie fundamentals - You need to decide if you are going GBx attrition with Sultai or if you are going UB prep control set up with Sultai. From there you can give your deck a cohesive element by cutting out cards that are intuitive to your overall game plan. This means removing cards like Mana Leak, Cryptic Command, and Damnation from your 60 of a GBu Sultai list. Or removing things like Tarmogoyf and Tireless Tracker from your UBg Sultai. Running counter intuitive cards mean your openings are going to be partial and clunky. This is historically why the UBg Sultai decks never took off in the first place, because they lack a solid UB Control style finisher and they opt to run attrition cards instead of straight value cards like a traditional control deck. This is also why GBu Sultai decks have historically struggled to make a footing, they too often revert to powerful options that are at odds wit hthe gameplan of playing a straight attrition game.
This is also why Legacy has seen Sultai lists do well - they ran and still run a cohesive gameplan. Now you would argue that Force of Will and Cryptic Command serve the same purpose, but in reality they operate on completely different levels because FoW's only resource cost is a single card. meaning you can use your mana to play the hard attrition ground game with little opportunity cost. Modern does not let you do that when you are tapping 4 mana to make a play that is 100% reactive.
I think people get too lost in card tier that they simply forget about fundamental MTG theory and this is why Pro Tours feature breakout decks and SCG Opens often don't anymore. People favor groupthink and conventional wisdom over flexing fundamental game theory.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Thanks for the quick reply! Yeah, I did wonder if FoR was pushing it a bit in a 3-colour deck. I guess that's one of the draws of straight GB.
Todd's deck is not Sultai Midrange, that is Sultai Control. Liliana of the Veil is hot garbage in Control decks and has historically found her way into them as a 3 mana removal spell that has a repeat option and those decks have not graced modern in some time - for good reason. So while I see the merits of his argument, I can also tell that you are trying to compare apples to oranges here. Blue in Sultai Midrange, via Snapcaster Mage, is looking to inflate value on converting used resources through the graveyard. That is a very different role than something like Search for Azcanta that is looking to inflate resources by generating true card advantage. There are two very different fundamentals. LotV in this sense, is not at odds with Snapcaster Mage. Sultai Midrange is literally focused on stripping resources while simultaneously advancing a board on the cheap and Liliana lets you do this quite effectively with bother her +1 and -2 and in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage you are allowed to offset parity while doing so. That is a completely different game plan than what Todd Steven's deck is trying to do, which is trade resources and refill as you pivot from a reactive game to a proactive game.
2nd, while I don't mind talking about pivoting the deck to more of a control style, I would like to remind you that while Sultai Midrange may not be well represented... this thread is for what has been established as a GBu Midrange archetype - and what has established this thread are multiple SCG Open top 16's, multiple 5-0 deck lists, and I believe 2 top 8 1ks decklists. So the notion that the discussion in here really isn't working off anything is not accurate. I have continued to notice that you seem to habitually discount that, for reasons unknown.
Is the control variant more effective with the addition of Assassin's Trophy? Who knows. Maybe, it is worth working on. Is this thread for the un-established control variant? Not based on the intent behind structuring the forums the way they have here on MTGSalvation.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Do you have links to the decklists you mentioned? I am interested to see the builds and the exact time when they have been succesful. Was this in a short period of time? Or was this on a bigger stretch? Which banlist was the active one? As far as I know, Sultai had some results when Twin was still legal, but it was still a Sultai Control variant, rather than Midrange.
EDIT: The very first post of this threat even shows the Sultai Control list I was referring to be succesful in the Twin era, so, I guess this threat is surely fine to talk about control variants.
Sultai, in the discussion of the Midrange vs Control, is established. This thread used to be the old Sultai Control thread and was renamed accordingly because of the results that were going up and how the deck shifted. You might see it as nitpicking, but the difference between a BGu core and a UBg core is pretty substantial in how they play out. BG plays a proactive early game into stabilizing reactive cards where UB plays a reactive early game into a stablized proactive game. I have played enough to have experienced how different they are, and they are not marginal at all. BG is far more aggressive than UB. Trophy does not change that in any significant way. The only thing Trophy does is shore up the problem matches the lists below have vs the current modern Climate. It doesnt solve the UB core's issue of having to use bad Tarmos as finishers.
Have these decks continued to have consistent results? Not on the trajectory they had early on... but these lists are far more relevant that Todd Stevens brews which have nowhere near the amount of footing in an arguably exact same Modern meta that existed early in 2018. The decks tapered off in the same fashion as Jund, not because they were inferior to UB cores, but because they BGx had problems that Trophy clearly resolves and in a much better way than it does for Jund.
Sultai Midrange by Nick Moore 1st Place SCG IQ Findlay 3.11.18
Sultai Midrange by Jesse Clevenger 11th Place SCG Open Classic Cincinnati 3.25.18
Sultai Midrange by yuurari_yuko 5-0 Competitive Modern League 3.20.18
Sultai Midrange by Mr_DeathCloud 5-0 Competitive Modern League 2.27.18
Sultai Midrange by kogamo 5-0 Competitive Modern League 2.23.18
Sultai Midrange by lighdar 5-0 Competitive Modern League 2.20.18
Sultai Midrange by Jeff Hoogland 5-2 Competitive Modern Challenge 2.10.18
Sultai Midrange by Raja Sulaiman 12th place Team Constructed 3.25.18
Sultai midrange by Shaun Raj 8th Place SCG Regionals 6.2.18
Sultai Midrange by Edgar Magalhaes top 8 F2F 1K
Sultai Midrange by Somniloquist_ Modern Competitive League 6.22.18
Sultai Midrange by Robert Baker Modern Staples 42 man event top 8
I recently made a fairly easy run to the top 8 of a PPTQ with the list I posted a couple of pages back. The deck is still gas in the same way it was earlier in the year. The only difference is now you have outs with Trophy and you can streamline your sideboard WAY more efficiently with Ego. No more having to have 6-8 slots specifically for Tron in your SB. Freeing up space to cut out fat vs your tough matches like Humans and KCI.
Like I said, is the Control the possible future of the deck? Possibly. But this thread is going to progress a lot more efficiently by going back to the basics above which are more established lists. The meta has not shifted in any significant way since early 2018 after the unbanning of JTMS and BBE, that would make these above lists any less effective.
If you can provide a comparable level of results for lists more like that of Todd Stevens, I will open up to the idea.
But at the end of the day, results speak louder than conjecture.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
To make clear, I am not saying I am thinking Todd Stevens approach is the correct one, I never said that. Thats not whats my point here. I just think we should not only focus on one particular version with Trophy coming up. Even your lists at least contain several what I would consider different builds, which does maybe give a hint for whats good, but not give yet a fully clear picture.
And my opinion on LoTV still holds pretty much, also in midrange. I think due to trophy snapcaster is a very potent card to run in Sultai (even if you consider it to be the worst blue card in the deck). And since we naturally want to run discard, then snapcaster alongside LotV gets weaker. However, I think Snapcaster works brilliantly together with LtLH. Thats why I am more leaning towards those cards. And besides that, LoTV is in general bad shape for the overall format anyway.
Those lists are pretty congruent save for filler slots - which tend to be cards like Tireless Trackers, Grim Flayers, Dark Confidants, or Scavenging Ooze. None of those cards shift the core of the deck substantially, so "different builds" among the above posted lists is something I would also call into question.
I agree that Trophy adds more value to Snapcaster Mage. My comment about most people finding the card underwhelming is that we don't have much to use him for save for discard. His other options are really not that interesting. Trophy definitely adds value layers to Snapcaster. If you saw my list from the PPTQ you would have noticed I ran 2 and that with Trophy coming up, I am increasing it to 3 copies of Snap. I don't think Trophy packs on so much value to Snap that he is worth a 4 of and completely shifting to things like Cryptic Command though. You still need to have a deck that has a robust offensive line and that is the trick with Sultai as opposed to Jund or Abzan - blue is at odds with the proactive GB strategy.
As a Jund Pilot, I would agree that Liliana is not the most efficient card right now. As a Sultai player, I would say that it provides a much needed board presence at a much needed slot of 3 mana. So I think her place in the meta is actually pretty subjective in that sense. I think LtLH is actually not a great card in this deck. Sure it can fill the yard and stick out some meat, but as someone who has ran her extensively in the SB with Fulminators... her value kind of ends there over the course of an event. I ended up cutting her from the board entirely because she just wasn't that good, even with the Fulminators. Some games I just brought in Fulminators and left her out. I would value something like Garruk, Relentless over her even, and the only match I found him to be strong in is the Jund/Abzan match. As much as I like the option to continue to rebuy threats vs Trophy decks, I think I would just rather run more threats if T1 Discard T2 threats is the gameplan.
I will be closely watching to see how you feel about her, but I never liked her as a board option enough to ever want her main over a lot of other options - especially at 3 mana.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
-EDIT-
Never mind! Superna has put in much more research than I. Great work.. I'm loving those 9 PW lists with a full 9 discard suite (including main deck Collective Brutality)
It's amazing how the color requirements of these lists completely thwart the Karsten formulas. Thank you for sharing your experience and these lists. I think we should consider rewriting the primer with these lists as the guide line, and still paying homage to the control lists of years past
Draft My Cube!
I want to let you know that I am not trying to really get in your face or anything. Sorry if I am coming off that way, I do owe you an apology for my general attitude towards you in recent posts. I really just want to point out that we have previous information to work with and that I don't think there is any value in just dismissing that.
I can agree to disagree on the correct land count discussion.
But the difference between what Todd Stevens is doing and what all these other lists have been doing, are fundamentally different no matter how similar they may look on paper.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I have to say I was not quite aware of this information. And I agree it should not be dismissed. The question for me remains what is the key message to gain from that data. These lists where all from the first half of 2018 pretty much. This was pretty much the timeframe where the meta was up in the air due to the unbanning of BBE and Jace. As we know, at the beginning people overplayed Jace and BBE in control and Jund decks first, until they realized that Humans and Hollow One are simply faster, and more consistant than those decks. We have a pretty defined meta right now, which is still wide open, but the top decks are defined. So I would say I am more interested in the decks from june rather those of february and march for that reason.
The meta really has not shifted much from where it was in February though, that is my point. Se saw these Jace and BBE decks crop up, but the decks that stuck around were the same decks that were there from the start. As a Sultai player from day 1, my experience is about the same as Jund - a very strong deck across the vast majority of the field but not flexible enough to be played without thinning itself out way too much. Both Jund and Sultai were fine decks until you realized that your SB and slot counts get super awkward and inefficient once you try to tackle everything. Todd Anderson and Brad Nelson were actually just talking about this in an offhand comment during a Standard stream. GBx decks are just not flexible when it comes to adapting to meta shifts because there are not enough broad spectrum cards to work with. You end up with clunky SBs where you are jamming 3 Fulminators, 2 Damping Spheres and maybe a LtLH just to try and slow down a Tron deck enough to do something. Or you crumble to KCI unless you overdo your answers and fold to Tron or UW.
These were problems GBx had before Jace was unbanned, during the unbanning phase, and well after. So I think the question really becomes "Why now with GRN?"
To which I really answer: Assassin's Trophy gives your broader coverage to decks like UW, Tron, and even KCI, all while being a mainboard answer. Ego allows us to condense some 6 or so slots down to a mere 3 and is flexible enough to hit both Tron as well as combo decks like KCI, Scapeshift, and so on - while freeing up more slots for matches like Humans, while leaving use with a much cleaner SB plan across the entirety of the format. Which is really what GB needed. Not all that it needed, but a big part of what it needed.
The fact that we have all this previous information from GBx decks makes starting with them more reasonable than reverting to a mere brew with much less data behind it, all for the sake of 1 or 2 cards.
I have seen the Jaberwocki list. I think it might be a plausible start for something like Sultai Control. Historically though, the main issue with UB Control decks in Modern is a strong way to actually finish out the game. UW is fortunate to have Teferi, a permanent that is quite hard to interact with. UB really doesn't have any of that, and Goyf is not a card that is going to be that solution. It cost less than 4 mana, has no immediate board presence, no evasion to get around the combat zone, nothing. It is just a cheap, dumb dork in a Control shell. I would lean more towards some sort of 4 Color Gifts package in a Sultai Control Shell before I used Goyf to finish the game as a Control deck.
But I digress.
UG cards traditionally lean towards more tempo oriented play. UB cards traditionally lean towards reactive play. BG traditionally leans towards very proactive play. UG is likely the secret to bridging the gap between a BG focus and a UB focus, but there is little to be desired in Modern to help bridge that gap. Which is why we are seeing BG lists that lean into their opponent on turn 1, or UB lists that sit back in the early game. You are going to be hard pressed to find something in between that is effective, because you tend to find that those decks do incredibly awkward things with incredibly divided opening hands and you have to pivot from time to time, in the most inefficient way.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Breeding Pool
3x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Island
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorcery (6)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (12)
4x Assassin's Trophy
4x Fatal Push
4x Thought Scour
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Playtested more with this list against a friend who was on U/W miracles- went 4-2 and another who was playing B/W eldrazi taxes- went 4-0 (although I don't think eldrazi taxes is that great...). I am pretty blown away by how good trophy was- the land it gives, similar to path, is rarely ever relevant- modern is a format more about resources than it is a format that worries about ramping the opponent too much (standard is not like this as it's defined by the bombs). I think trophy may be a more format defining card than people are giving it credit for- it will really force decks to try to be leaner or they will not be able to keep up. Liliana and Jace working in tandem together kind of feels like a prison style gameplan- you get so much flexibility in the way that you want to address the resources that both players are working with- you can deplete resources from your opponent's hand, kill/bounce stuff of of the board, reduce the impact of your opponent's topdecks, sculpt your hand, etc.
Snap-trophy felt like a powerful enough gameplan in itself that I considered going up to 3 snaps- but don't think I have the spell density to really support it. Having that flexibility to kill 2 permanents in 3 turns is really strong. Thought scour also impressed me a lot- it has nice synergy with tasigur, goyf, snapcaster, and jace (you can get yourself out of brainstorm locks by milling yourself after brainstorming). It also provided some value against my U/W opponent- he jace brainstormed, and I suspected that he was hiding some of his better cards on top of his deck- milling him showed me that he had put a teferi on top.
I think tracker is a trap. We have access to Jace- which is far more flexible and powerful in general than a 3/2 for 3. Tracker is just so slow in the modern format without some sort of acceleration or way to play it for free (i.e. I think it's great in ponza because of the ramp package but also hitting it off of BBE is great). It could be worth exploring noble hierarch + tracker, but Tasigur + Jace is enough of a card advantage engine that it's probably unnecessary.
Overall I think this deck is favored vs.
-humans
-affinity and hardened scales
-random janky creature decks
Has even matchups vs.
-U/W/x control
-B/G/x midrange
-spirits
-Graveyard based combo- KCI, Storm
-Burn- we don't hurt ourselves nearly as much without bob, Jace fateseal can shut games out against burn.
Has bad matchups vs.
-Anything with bloodghast (hollow one, vengevine decks)
-Tron- although this matchup is probably slightly more reasonable now- Jace fateseal is also very good against tron if you survive to that stage in the game.
This breakdown is very similar to jund overall- and I think sultai will actually be a playable modern deck post-trophy.
4 Grim Flayer
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Unmoored Ego
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Damnation
2 Collective Brutality
3 Countersquall
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Maelstrom Pulse
So a couple explanations:
I tried a full on delirium build that was analagous to Abzan Delirium (essentially just had snaps instead of souls) which was pretty solid, especially because with Snap in your deck, Traverse becomes even better. I think this could be another solid approach to the archetype, but I eventually moved away from it because any sort of graveyard hate completely neutered the deck (similar to issues that Mardu Pyro has).
I also tried a Noble Hierarch build. The starts with Noble are actually great and again, it feels really close to being good. The biggest struggle I had was that it suffers from only have 4 mana accelerators and it is hard to build a consistent gameplan around it.
I also tried builds similar to what Hoogland was playing with Delve guys/Thought Scour and just GB splashing for Snap/Counters/Unmoored Ego. I found that I was never happy to have to play Thought Scour, and the Delve guys were good, but playing 4 of them isn't possible without Scour. Snap is obviously a good card, but never felt anywhere near as powerful as he feels in decks with Bolt/Kcommand.
I ended on Grim Flayer because I think that GB has missed something by straight replacing Dark Confidant with Tireless Tracker. While Tracker is obviously insane if the game goes even decently long, what she ISN'T is a 2 drop. I think the deck really wanted another turn 2 proactive play. Grim Flayer doesn't have the synergies that he does in Abzan, but he can still clock people and filter our draws nicely while easily coming down on turn 2 (which is really why I'm taking him).
I'm playing Jace while most others aren't. The double blue is definitely rough, I know I'm making sacrifices by playing him (no Scavenging Ooze is the big one). But I think that BGx and UWx decks are going to pick up in the near future, and Jace is good against both of them. Also, getting countersquall against UW is another thing that this deck has over the other BG variants. Getting to protect against Terminus is a big deal.
I'll obviously keep testing and if you guys have any questions/criticisms I'll be happy to to listen to them. I'll do my best to justify my choices.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiR3Mk8JGrE
I do think his performance does show that Sultai needs to establish its own identity. We can't throw some islands and snapcaster mage into a GB rock deck. We can't play a blue version of Jund. I still think we can make Charnel Troll a thing with Architects of Will and Street Wraith. I should have a deck list up by Wednesday for this idea. Will keep you guys posted!
PS- Hoogland needed to utilize Unmoored Ego more. How do you not bring it in to stop Reveler and Young Pyromancer against Mardu is just beyond me.
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
However, I am not sure I would bring in Ego vs Pyromancer. Its not that the deck is dead if you hit one.
Discard should be more then enough to cut off unfettered use of Reveler (the only card I would remotely consider using Unmoored Ego on in their list), and this deck has plenty of removal to kill a pyromancer the moment it drops should it resolve.
Gofy is arguably one of the most susceptible creatures to Modern removal spells in the entire format, in terms of playable creatures. He slots into decks where there isn't enough going on around him to continually absorb removal. He cost less than 3 mana. He is 1 color. He isn't a black creature. He doesn't have hexproof. He doesn't have flying. He doesn't have trample... He is a cheap dork with no evasion and no protection and his toughness is based on other factors meaning he does indeed sometime even die to Lightning Bolt. He is best when other things are eating those kinds of spells increasing the odds that he can actually put in an 8 hour shift.
There is something to say about conventional wisdom and groupthink pitfalls, that often go completely unobserved in collective discussions like this.
Goyf is, and always has been, an attrition creature. There is a reason he works well in creature based decks and with discard and why he is less efficient in blue decks with disruption like counter magic. Counterspells are not attrition cards. Control decks are also not so much attrition based as they are preparation based. They reward set ups, not grindy maneuvering.
Tying this in with the discussion previously had about Sultai and why the deck is constantly at odds with itself based on color pairings and color pie fundamentals - You need to decide if you are going GBx attrition with Sultai or if you are going UB prep control set up with Sultai. From there you can give your deck a cohesive element by cutting out cards that are intuitive to your overall game plan. This means removing cards like Mana Leak, Cryptic Command, and Damnation from your 60 of a GBu Sultai list. Or removing things like Tarmogoyf and Tireless Tracker from your UBg Sultai. Running counter intuitive cards mean your openings are going to be partial and clunky. This is historically why the UBg Sultai decks never took off in the first place, because they lack a solid UB Control style finisher and they opt to run attrition cards instead of straight value cards like a traditional control deck. This is also why GBu Sultai decks have historically struggled to make a footing, they too often revert to powerful options that are at odds wit hthe gameplan of playing a straight attrition game.
This is also why Legacy has seen Sultai lists do well - they ran and still run a cohesive gameplan. Now you would argue that Force of Will and Cryptic Command serve the same purpose, but in reality they operate on completely different levels because FoW's only resource cost is a single card. meaning you can use your mana to play the hard attrition ground game with little opportunity cost. Modern does not let you do that when you are tapping 4 mana to make a play that is 100% reactive.
I think people get too lost in card tier that they simply forget about fundamental MTG theory and this is why Pro Tours feature breakout decks and SCG Opens often don't anymore. People favor groupthink and conventional wisdom over flexing fundamental game theory.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm