If I'm not allowed to post links here, forgive me.
I've had ideas about utilizing the graveyard more with cards like jotun grunt, tasigur, gurmag angler, lingering souls, goryo's vengeance, etc. but it made me feel like I was playing a bad green deck. In addition, it was too susceptible to graveyard hate. This recent esper zur tempo deck focuses on tempo - using azorius charm to set back an enemy a turn, using judge's familiar in conjunction with mana leaks, messing enemy's lands with spreading seas, etc. More in the description.
I've been wondering about Bob. I test almost exclusively against a guy who plays Grixis Delver. Seeing as his list involves 5 spot removal cards, counterspells and Snapcasters, Bob doesn't tend to live long. In fact I've never gotten a single trigger. What have been your experiences?
In a fit of despair I looked frantically for an answer and all I could find was Turn Aside. Is it a good idea?
Why is Turn Aside better than Dispel? Does the fact that it answers sorceries trump the limitation of the "that targets a permanent you control" clause?
It would feel pretty awful to get bolted at three life, look down at your hand and see a Turn Aside staring at you mockingly...
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
I can't imagine when Jace would actually be good. As a creature, it's a 0/2 which really doesn't advance the aggro or midrange plan. As a planeswalker, he's pretty underwhelming. The +1 is okay (helps stem bleeding vs creature decks, I guess), but his -3 does basically nothing for us. What do we want to give flashback at sorcery speed? Path? Thoughtscour? Discard? I don't think so. Seems pretty bad all around for this deck, tbh.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
The new Jace is bad, trust me, you never want him.
@All, for everyone, who is interesting in this deck, run Scry_me_a_river's list. The Delve plan is much more consistent and better than the Mentor plan (played a ton of games against this version and the "old" one). Furthermore, it allows us to play a more proactive game (landing a Tasigur on turn 2 against combo should be enough), where as the Mentor versions have no early pressure.
The only change I would do is to add 2-3 Serum Visions (depending on what you want to cut, but you could kick a land for it), since it improves the consistency of the deck and it gives you another play (besides the few counters/discards/Thought Scour you have nothing to do in the first 1-3 turns (always depends on your draw)).
Furthermore, I would run 2 Bitterblossom in the SB, for all those midrange match-ups. Since those will board Decay out (no targets besides SCM) BB will win the game on it's own.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The new Jace is bad, trust me, you never want him.
@All, for everyone, who is interesting in this deck, run Scry_me_a_river's list. The Delve plan is much more consistent and better than the Mentor plan (played a ton of games against this version and the "old" one). Furthermore, it allows us to play a more proactive game (landing a Tasigur on turn 2 against combo should be enough), where as the Mentor versions have no early pressure.
The only change I would do is to add 2-3 Serum Visions (depending on what you want to cut, but you could kick a land for it), since it improves the consistency of the deck and it gives you another play (besides the few counters/discards/Thought Scour you have nothing to do in the first 1-3 turns (always depends on your draw)).
Furthermore, I would run 2 Bitterblossom in the SB, for all those midrange match-ups. Since those will board Decay out (no targets besides SCM) BB will win the game on it's own.
Greetings,
Kathal
Playing the Delve based list seems like you're just running an inferior version of the Grixis decks. Monastery Mentor is the biggest reason to be running white over red. Yes I know path and souls are decent, plus white sideboard cards are a premium in their effectiveness but compared to Kcommand, terminate, bolt, electrolyze, and such there's already a list that does what the Delve list is trying to do but better, especially when it comes down to the grind but has the reach to finish games out. Mentor at times can feel weak, but it can take over a game in literally 1-2 turns. Mentor turns the corner at lightning speeds which is what the deck needs to compensate for not having cards like lightning bolt.
The relationship between Esper and Grixis is the same as Jund to Junk. Since Grixis plays red, it has a better Aggro matchup (Bolt is huge there, furthermore, it plays more 2 drops than Esper). However, Esper has the better Midrang and Control match-up.
But when you are running a rather expensive creature (Mentor) which dies to every removal spell (most important Bolt) without giving you something (exeption is when you have Probe, or when you have 4+ Mana) it is bad. It is true, if the opponent does kill it, he will win the game on its own (same with Confidant), but just look at his list, nothing relevant dies to neither Bolt nor Decay. This gives us a HUGE advantage against all those fair Midrange/Control decks. It is also very importanat against Twin and Burn (Tasigur/Angler provides you with early blockers for their Creatures).
He started with the Mentor list and now he is playing the Delve version. He played more than 100 games, before he did this change and since than his results got much much better. Hence, I (and he too) can say, that this version is better than the Mentor versions.
Greetingr,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Would love to see the list you are using. I want to play the deck, I love the idea of it (the Mentor version) but everytime I play the deck, I feel like I am already behind, especially when I sit down against Grixis Delver or UR Twin.
I think I am a fairly competent players (Im no PT player but I usually end events with positive records) but I just do not feel like the Esper colours make up for missing out on R.
I see a lot of issues here. You're running a split between control/aggro and that doesn't generally work. I think you're better off going the control route. Bob is weak in a format full of Bolts, Electrolyze, Path, Abrupt Decay etc. If you're running blue, there's better options. Esper likes to run 3-4 copies of Think Twice. It's replaces itself for 1U first, but then you've got a flashback cost of 2U that'll put an extra card in your hand for unused mana in the late game. You may also consider a set of Serum Visions, I personally tried them and decided against. You also have one of Esper Charm's modes drawing you 2 cards if you use it for that. Generally you use it for the discard and the enchantment destruction is a solid mode. I like the use of Monastery Mentor and I have 2 different versions, one that uses 4 of him. The one that I have good winning numbers with is the control shell. Here's my list for that-
It's a more traditional Esper Control build. Using Sorin, Elspeth (the big one) and White Sun's Zenith to win. I've closed out games more often with Creeping Tar Pit and Lingering souls though. I'm a big supporter of Esper in Modern and Standard as I have been for quite a while. Would love to discuss the deck more with you.
This deck is a Midrange deck with more permission than other Midrange decks (simply because of the speed of the deck). Both versions (Mentor/Delve) have their advantages/disadvantages but neither one is running Dark Confidant. Confidant is not great in this deck (I tested it).
@All, if you are still on the Mentor versions, try the Delve version out, maybe it is the better list for you (as it was for both me and Scry_me_a_River).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I think you missed the point of what I was saying entirely. I'm aware of the thread for Esper Control, I was trying to talk about your build as listed in the original post of the thread.
Well a Mentor Version and a slightly more control version but if you click the link I posted with my deck list you'll see it's definitely slightly more aggressive than most other full control builds.
I think you missed the point of what I was saying entirely. I'm aware of the thread for Esper Control, I was trying to talk about your build as listed in the original post of the thread.
I'm playing a Mentor version of Esper and I was also comparing my build to yours and offering to exchange notes/play test results.
Well a Mentor Version and a slightly more control version but if you click the link I posted with my deck list you'll see it's definitely slightly more aggressive than most other full control builds.
Next time, pls use the Edit function instead of making 3 separate Posts.
Besides this, your version/list is still Esper Control, it only plays a little bit more finisher. The esper versions which are discussed here are for the Aggro/Control versions. In such a version you don't want to play stuff like Sphinx's Rev/WSZ since it is to slow, we don't have enough lands to support it, and it counteracts with our strategy (land a threat early, play interaction, activate Manlands/utilty lands and win from there).
When you are starting to add cards like Delay, WSZ, Rev and co, you want to go into the late game, but our lategame is not that good, because this archetype isn't build for THIS. You want to play either a pure Control version (as it is discussed in the Esper Control threat) or stick to either the Mentor or Delve version. If you smash both together, you will be neither at the early beatdown/value plan nor the lategame plan good. You simply have not enough space to run both in one deck.
Furthermore (although I know, that your list should be discussed in the Esper Control thread), in your deck, Mentor will die asap. You can't play him on turn 3 (when you want to cast him), neither on turn 5 or 6. In your deck it is a different late game finisher, but most of the times worse than the other available options (like Dragonlord Ojutai).
i want to build my first modern deck. I always liked the esper colors and so my deck should be build in these colors. Right now i have to decide between two versions of esper midrange.
The sideboard cards based on the other decks decks posted on this thread. I will tweak them according to my local meta. My main question is, which of these two is more competitive and/or fun to play. Unfortunaly i can't afford Snapcaster mage right now, i know how important he is. So i replaced him with Dragonlord Ojutai from my standard deck until snapcasters price drops. Do you have any suggestions/tips/advice? I am sorry if this belongs in another thread but i didn't know which one.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Sadly, both version are bad. Replacing a 2 drop (to be realistic a 3 drop) with a 5 drop and not gaining any utility of it is bad. Ojutai might be a strong card, but not in this shell. I would play a Esper Control version first, since this Esper version doesn't need 4 SCMs, 1-2 are more than enough and those can be replaced (it still hurts). For this deck, they are a centrepiece.
Otherwise, you will have to test both versions, adjust cards and find a own version which suites your playstyle/available cardpool. But there is 1 rule to follow, you want the Playset Lingering Souls in this deck (they are even more important than SCM).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
IMO, this deck is pretty poor in the current grixis-heavy meta. It was already going downhill when Jund made its comeback. The bolt decks (bar twin) are hard to overcome IMO. I've switched to "big Abzan": no creatures that die to bolt and some Thruns in the sideboard.
Yeah, the Mentor version is bad, but the Delve version has a great match-up against both Grixis and Jund. So, if you want to play Esper atm, play the Delve version. Overall, it has a great Midrange match-up but a difficult aggro and control match-up. The combo match-up depends on the combo deck, against most it is even, some are worse (like Griselbanned) or some are positive (Storm). The Aggro match-up can be fixed via the SB (and it also depends on the opponents deck, 1 drop Zoo is rough, Meerfolk is ok, Affinity is good post board and the rest should be even at least post board). Only Burn is a pain in the ass, because of the Skullcrack effects since you want to run Timely instead of Firewalker.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I won a PPTQ this weekend with a Mentor/Delve version of the deck. The list was tweaked by a friend, but he didn't end up playing the deck in the end. Mentors were really insane in a few games but I ended up siding them out quite a lot of the time too, especially for removal heavy matchups.
I won a PPTQ this weekend with a Mentor/Delve version of the deck. The list was tweaked by a friend, but he didn't end up playing the deck in the end. Mentors were really insane in a few games but I ended up siding them out quite a lot of the time too, especially for removal heavy matchups.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/esper-zur-tempo/
If I'm not allowed to post links here, forgive me.
I've had ideas about utilizing the graveyard more with cards like jotun grunt, tasigur, gurmag angler, lingering souls, goryo's vengeance, etc. but it made me feel like I was playing a bad green deck. In addition, it was too susceptible to graveyard hate. This recent esper zur tempo deck focuses on tempo - using azorius charm to set back an enemy a turn, using judge's familiar in conjunction with mana leaks, messing enemy's lands with spreading seas, etc. More in the description.
In a fit of despair I looked frantically for an answer and all I could find was Turn Aside. Is it a good idea?
It would feel pretty awful to get bolted at three life, look down at your hand and see a Turn Aside staring at you mockingly...
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
I can't imagine when Jace would actually be good. As a creature, it's a 0/2 which really doesn't advance the aggro or midrange plan. As a planeswalker, he's pretty underwhelming. The +1 is okay (helps stem bleeding vs creature decks, I guess), but his -3 does basically nothing for us. What do we want to give flashback at sorcery speed? Path? Thoughtscour? Discard? I don't think so. Seems pretty bad all around for this deck, tbh.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
@All, for everyone, who is interesting in this deck, run Scry_me_a_river's list. The Delve plan is much more consistent and better than the Mentor plan (played a ton of games against this version and the "old" one). Furthermore, it allows us to play a more proactive game (landing a Tasigur on turn 2 against combo should be enough), where as the Mentor versions have no early pressure.
The only change I would do is to add 2-3 Serum Visions (depending on what you want to cut, but you could kick a land for it), since it improves the consistency of the deck and it gives you another play (besides the few counters/discards/Thought Scour you have nothing to do in the first 1-3 turns (always depends on your draw)).
Furthermore, I would run 2 Bitterblossom in the SB, for all those midrange match-ups. Since those will board Decay out (no targets besides SCM) BB will win the game on it's own.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Playing the Delve based list seems like you're just running an inferior version of the Grixis decks. Monastery Mentor is the biggest reason to be running white over red. Yes I know path and souls are decent, plus white sideboard cards are a premium in their effectiveness but compared to Kcommand, terminate, bolt, electrolyze, and such there's already a list that does what the Delve list is trying to do but better, especially when it comes down to the grind but has the reach to finish games out. Mentor at times can feel weak, but it can take over a game in literally 1-2 turns. Mentor turns the corner at lightning speeds which is what the deck needs to compensate for not having cards like lightning bolt.
But when you are running a rather expensive creature (Mentor) which dies to every removal spell (most important Bolt) without giving you something (exeption is when you have Probe, or when you have 4+ Mana) it is bad. It is true, if the opponent does kill it, he will win the game on its own (same with Confidant), but just look at his list, nothing relevant dies to neither Bolt nor Decay. This gives us a HUGE advantage against all those fair Midrange/Control decks. It is also very importanat against Twin and Burn (Tasigur/Angler provides you with early blockers for their Creatures).
He started with the Mentor list and now he is playing the Delve version. He played more than 100 games, before he did this change and since than his results got much much better. Hence, I (and he too) can say, that this version is better than the Mentor versions.
Greetingr,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Would love to see the list you are using. I want to play the deck, I love the idea of it (the Mentor version) but everytime I play the deck, I feel like I am already behind, especially when I sit down against Grixis Delver or UR Twin.
I think I am a fairly competent players (Im no PT player but I usually end events with positive records) but I just do not feel like the Esper colours make up for missing out on R.
Thanks for sharing
http://www.mtgvault.com/snikurztehbar/decks/esper-control/
It's a more traditional Esper Control build. Using Sorin, Elspeth (the big one) and White Sun's Zenith to win. I've closed out games more often with Creeping Tar Pit and Lingering souls though. I'm a big supporter of Esper in Modern and Standard as I have been for quite a while. Would love to discuss the deck more with you.
This deck is a Midrange deck with more permission than other Midrange decks (simply because of the speed of the deck). Both versions (Mentor/Delve) have their advantages/disadvantages but neither one is running Dark Confidant. Confidant is not great in this deck (I tested it).
@All, if you are still on the Mentor versions, try the Delve version out, maybe it is the better list for you (as it was for both me and Scry_me_a_River).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Next time, pls use the Edit function instead of making 3 separate Posts.
Besides this, your version/list is still Esper Control, it only plays a little bit more finisher. The esper versions which are discussed here are for the Aggro/Control versions. In such a version you don't want to play stuff like Sphinx's Rev/WSZ since it is to slow, we don't have enough lands to support it, and it counteracts with our strategy (land a threat early, play interaction, activate Manlands/utilty lands and win from there).
When you are starting to add cards like Delay, WSZ, Rev and co, you want to go into the late game, but our lategame is not that good, because this archetype isn't build for THIS. You want to play either a pure Control version (as it is discussed in the Esper Control threat) or stick to either the Mentor or Delve version. If you smash both together, you will be neither at the early beatdown/value plan nor the lategame plan good. You simply have not enough space to run both in one deck.
Furthermore (although I know, that your list should be discussed in the Esper Control thread), in your deck, Mentor will die asap. You can't play him on turn 3 (when you want to cast him), neither on turn 5 or 6. In your deck it is a different late game finisher, but most of the times worse than the other available options (like Dragonlord Ojutai).
Sadly, both version are bad. Replacing a 2 drop (to be realistic a 3 drop) with a 5 drop and not gaining any utility of it is bad. Ojutai might be a strong card, but not in this shell. I would play a Esper Control version first, since this Esper version doesn't need 4 SCMs, 1-2 are more than enough and those can be replaced (it still hurts). For this deck, they are a centrepiece.
Otherwise, you will have to test both versions, adjust cards and find a own version which suites your playstyle/available cardpool. But there is 1 rule to follow, you want the Playset Lingering Souls in this deck (they are even more important than SCM).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Meddling Mage
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Dispel
1 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
1 Celestial Purge
1 Languish
The deck is a lot of fun and I think it's pretty underrated. Definitely deserves a lot more respect than it gets.
Could you write a report about the PPTQ? Was Languish intended or is it a replacement of Damnation?
Pretty cool list, it looks very strong.