I don't know, I feel he is running a bit low on the removal side. 6 of them, with 2 of them having some restrictions might not be enough. I would cut a Sorin for sure in order to add a removal. I also like running a single copy of Zealous persecution. Anticipates+Serum Visions vs Thought Scour is a hard choice, I think it needs to be tested a lot.
All the modes are relevant; bouncing a creature is often the same as removing it as this deck likes it alpha strike, the cantrip is nice with a Mentor on the board and the lifelink can shore up Burn/aggro match ups.
What about Sorin 1.0 vs Sorin 2.0?
The emblem has some definite Pros to it vs the 2/2 flying token, maybe its just that I love the Duel Deck Sorin 1.0....
@ the permission heavier build... I think permission belongs in the sideboard for this deck. I feel like I want to be as aggressive as possible game 1 and cards like Remand/Mana Leak/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare can be rather hit or miss. I like the discard/removal heavy build backed up with a full set of Mentors/Snaps/2-3 Tasigurs
All the modes are relevant; bouncing a creature is often the same as removing it as this deck likes it alpha strike, the cantrip is nice with a Mentor on the board and the lifelink can shore up Burn/aggro match ups.
What about Sorin 1.0 vs Sorin 2.0?
The emblem has some definite Pros to it vs the 2/2 flying token, maybe its just that I love the Duel Deck Sorin 1.0....
@ the permission heavier build... I think permission belongs in the sideboard for this deck. I feel like I want to be as aggressive as possible game 1 and cards like Remand/Mana Leak/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare can be rather hit or miss. I like the discard/removal heavy build backed up with a full set of Mentors/Snaps/2-3 Tasigurs
I've considered Azorius Charm before, too. From testing it in other decks, it's a fine removal spell (it puts creatures on top of libraries--significantly better than bounce, as it's card parity) that cantrips when other removal spells would be dead. Anticipate has been treating me sooooo well in my flex slot, though, that I'm loath to give it up, even though I do want better life gain maindeck. ...And whenever I try Azorius Charm, I almost never use the Lifelink mode.
I strongly prefer Sorin, Solemn Visitor over Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, simply because Sorin SV often gains so much life per turn that Burn has to Skullcrack my head every time I +1 him or they lose. Sorin LoI cannot pull off the same without sticking at least 2 Lifelink tokens and an emblem, and I've consistently found that he's too slow against Burn. Given that this deck can have trouble against fast aggro...
I'd love to see your 4 Myth Realized list Lectrys. I am still running 3, sometimes they are great sometimes not. I cut the permission for them which sometimes bites you pretty badly (especially vs the all-in combo decks).
Here's my 4 Myth Realized Esper Mentor list that I use on Cockatrice:
I started off with a normal Esper Mentor list back before Dragons of Tarkir was released. I was never quite satisfied with the 4-drop slot--although Sorin SV did treat me well in that slot, he was the easiest swap for Ojutai Exemplars and Narset Transcendent back when I tested those cards.
Myth Realized has been treating me well enough to displace my 4-mana top end (and let me drop to 22 lands from my original 23 lands), though. I've found that this is one of the best shells for Myth Realized--a Turn 1 one gets fat fairly fast, even a late one or a Cryptic Command-bounced one still gets reasonably large (around 3/3), and late ones also have synergy with Monastery Mentor. I've swung with a 7/7 MR four or more times so far--sometimes, it even becomes 7/7 in response to double Bolt!
Something had to go to fit all 4 MRs in--I dropped a Tasigur and...blasphemous, I know...a Mentor. I tend to be pretty conservative with Mentor, though, so he's often a 4-drop anyway (resolve him, then cast or hold up a noncreature spell straight afterwards).
I like 1 Murderous Cut/2 Slaughter Pact. Slaughter Pact being free is awesome with Mentor, and my Delve gets sticky at times, even with only 2 Delve cards in the deck (and especially since I sometimes want Tiago to Flashback Cut).
I'm normally not a fan of Spell Snare in any deck with Tasigur in it--I get Snare back with Tasigur's ability too often, which is a sure sign that my opponents care the least about Snare--but I think it's a safe gamble when there's only 1 Tasigur left in the deck. If I switch back to 2 Tasigurs, though, I'm swapping Snare out for Spell Pierce or cantrips.
The mana base is sort of tailored for 4 MR. Seachrome Coast has ETB untapped surprisingly often.
Since I dropped Sorin SV and Vault of the Archangel at one point, I struggled to find a decent source of maindeck life gain after I read in one source that Vault is meant for life gain. I tried Sorin SV again (good, but a clunky 4-drop, and not something I want to play in a 22-land list), Vault instead of Marsh Flats (got in the way of fast MRs too often), Punish Ignorance (surprisingly good from my testing, counters stuff pretty often, and pretty punishing against Burn because they're often too tapped out to Skullcrack it, but still something I don't feel like holding up all the time)...in the end, I took out 1 Creeping Tar Pit for 1 Vault and I'm the happiest with that change (I get to put Anticipate back in if all I devote to life gain are lands). Vault's been fairly useless for me in this deck, though--I rarely activate it, which means that I don't tend to gain life from it.
I'm trying Batterskull in the finisher sideboard slot because it's a noncreature threat. I suppose bouncing it and casting it every turn with Mentor out is Magical Christmas Land, but equipping a Spirit token with it isn't.
The toy anti-midrange sideboard slot is Consuming Vapors. I want to live the dream and cast it with Mentor or MR out, but I haven't run into enough midrange lately. It's probably somewhat useless if they have Spirit tokens out, but taking out 1-2 big guys would be pretty legit.
Just going to agree that vault of the archangel has been very underwhelming and even bad for me. You usually want your mana to trigger prowess, make monks, or hold up disruption. And 5 mana is kind of a lot.
I like having a shadow of doubt in the main. In addition to sniping fetchlands and tutors, it synergizes with path to exile.
One thing I am kind of surprised with is that there are no sweepers anywhere in the 75. This feels like a control deck and control decks usually want 1-2 verdicts. Was it tested and found wanting?
Also surgical extraction in the SB seems good. The lack of any graveyard hate was causing me trouble in reanimator and dredge matches (path snap path notwithstanding
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* Esper Draw-Go
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Just going to agree that vault of the archangel has been very underwhelming and even bad for me. You usually want your mana to trigger prowess, make monks, or hold up disruption. And 5 mana is kind of a lot.
I like having a shadow of doubt in the main. In addition to sniping fetchlands and tutors, it synergizes with path to exile.
One thing I am kind of surprised with is that there are no sweepers anywhere in the 75. This feels like a control deck and control decks usually want 1-2 verdicts. Was it tested and found wanting?
Also surgical extraction in the SB seems good. The lack of any graveyard hate was causing me trouble in reanimator and dredge matches (path snap path notwithstanding
You actually bring up two good points.
1) Graveyard hate
I have started to play 2 copies of Leyline of the Void in my board. I had quite a few games where I wished I had access to graveyard hate.
And what's important is that the hate isn't as narrow as some people say. I mean let's look at the format. Everybody is either playing Delve spells, Tarmogoyf, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage on top of the dedicated graveyard decks. Leyline of the Void can be quite the beating. Someone played it in the mirror against me and holding all these dead delve spells and Snapcaster Mages and Thought Scour suddenly looks quite silly.
2) Sweepers
I was toying with this idea but I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet. If you have many decks in your meta where a wrath would be great you can probably get away with running a few copies of Supreme Verdict in your board.
There is nothing aggro about it... like... at all. Our 1 drop is... nothing or myth realized... our 2 drop is... snapcaster mage... our 3 drop is... lingering souls and a mentor that you never want to play on turn 3.
The fastest conceivable kill would be uh... turn 5 if we do t3 mentor into a craptonne of spells followed by a craptonne of spells?
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* Esper Draw-Go
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Yeah, it's more midrange rather than aggro. Although sometimes on turn 2 you can drop Tasigur.
I used to play a single supreme verdict in the side, but have switched it to engineered explosives to give me a bit more options vs artfifact/enchantment heavy decks. It can't be snapped back though, which is a definate downside when you scour it. Otoh it wins me games vs 8rack, elves and merfolk by blowing up racks, the 1 cmc enchantment that does damage if you have 1 card or less in hand, elf weenies, spreading seas and fish lords.
There is nothing aggro about it... like... at all. Our 1 drop is... nothing or myth realized... our 2 drop is... snapcaster mage... our 3 drop is... lingering souls and a mentor that you never want to play on turn 3.
The fastest conceivable kill would be uh... turn 5 if we do t3 mentor into a craptonne of spells followed by a craptonne of spells?
Yeah, it's more midrange rather than aggro. Although sometimes on turn 2 you can drop Tasigur.
Sadly, at least in my classification of decks, midrange IS a type of aggro-control. I also classify tempo decks as aggro-control.
Sometimes, you're the guy who has to play the control role and go targeted discard into removal into cantrip into removal into counterspell into manland into activate, and sometimes, you're the guy who has to play the aggro role and go targeted discard into threat into cantrip into threat into counterspell.
Decks like Zoo often go threat into threat into threat into removal and thus get called aggro, and rarer decks like UWR Control tend to go counterspell into removal into counterspell into removal into draw into removal...into manland into draw into counterspell into activate and thus get called control. Decks with sequences that tend to be squarely in between those two types' sequences (such as us) tend to get called aggro-control.
(I don't want to have to talk about monstrosities like combo-control or midrange-combo.)
There is nothing aggro about it... like... at all. Our 1 drop is... nothing or myth realized... our 2 drop is... snapcaster mage... our 3 drop is... lingering souls and a mentor that you never want to play on turn 3.
The fastest conceivable kill would be uh... turn 5 if we do t3 mentor into a craptonne of spells followed by a craptonne of spells?
Yeah, it's more midrange rather than aggro. Although sometimes on turn 2 you can drop Tasigur.
Sadly, at least in my classification of decks, midrange IS a type of aggro-control. I also classify tempo decks as aggro-control.
Sometimes, you're the guy who has to play the control role and go targeted discard into removal into cantrip into removal into counterspell into manland into activate, and sometimes, you're the guy who has to play the aggro role and go targeted discard into threat into cantrip into threat into counterspell.
Decks like Zoo often go threat into threat into threat into removal and thus get called aggro, and rarer decks like UWR Control tend to go counterspell into removal into counterspell into removal into draw into removal...into manland into draw into counterspell into activate and thus get called control. Decks with sequences that tend to be squarely in between those two types' sequences (such as us) tend to get called aggro-control.
(I don't want to have to talk about monstrosities like combo-control or midrange-combo.)
Pretty much.
Tempo and Midrange are both Aggro-Control. They both combine Aggro with Control elements.
Like Willy Edel said in one of his articles when talking about Midrange. There are basically Control decks but with creatures.
That's especially obvious when looking at BG/x decks or this one.
Nobody calls abzan midrange "aggro control". The terms are not interchangable. If anything id expect aggro control to be a euphamism for tempo (small aggro creatures backed up by discard and/or counterspells)
I realize naming decks is its own challenge, but if a deck absolutely cannot win on turn 4 with any sequence, and its number of 1 and 2 drop creatures combined is 0-4, it not an aggro deck.
The deck is a hybrid of jeskai control, abzan midrange, and BW tokens. It has nothing in common whatsoever with zoo, affnity, stompy, merfolk, etc.
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* Esper Draw-Go
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Nobody calls abzan midrange "aggro control". The terms are not interchangable. If anything id expect aggro control to be a euphamism for tempo (small aggro creatures backed up by discard and/or counterspells)
I realize naming decks is its own challenge, but if a deck absolutely cannot win on turn 4 with any sequence, and its number of 1 and 2 drop creatures combined is 0-4, it not an aggro deck.
The deck is a hybrid of jeskai control, abzan midrange, and BW tokens. It has nothing in common whatsoever with zoo, affnity, stompy, merfolk, etc.
This is a simple matter on the usage of terminology
There are three big archetypes. Control, Aggro and Combo. All decks use elements of these three.
Midrange and Tempo are both hybrids consisting of Aggro and Control therefore they are both Aggro-Control.
They both combine aggressive elements aka threats(Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Delver of Secrets, etc.) with Control elements(Abrupt Decay, Mana Leak, Thoughtseize, etc.)
It just depends on the composition and on the way in which they are utilized that makes them either Tempo or Midrange.
Discard for example is great in Midrange decks that want to answer the opponents cards before deploying their own powerful threats. Tempo decks are not really interested in it though. Since they want do to deploy an early threat and then ride it to victory while disrupting the opponent on the way and discard is negate tempo in the way that you have spent mana to answer a card that your opponent didn't actually played and spent mana on.
As theres no authority to appeal to on the correct usage of magic terms (or slang) its a hard thing to debate to a meaningful conclusion.
Nobody disagrees that merfolk, zoo, and affinity are aggro decks. What makes them aggro? I'd say the fact they can consistently deal lethal on turn 4 if not disrupted and the plethora of creatures in the 1 and 2 cmc slots. If a deck isn't featuring components of either of those things what on earth would make it aggro?
Saying all decks must be aggro, control, or combo is pointless frankly. Nobody calls twin UR combo. Nobody calls GR tron GR control. Nobody calls burn RW aggro. There is no dilemma here of needing to classify a deck within these 3 archetypes - as you say, most decks cross/blur the boundaries between these anyways.
Frankly if I was forced to put this deck into those 3 categories it'd be esper control, period. The lack of wraths and cryptic command is kind of glaring for a control deck, but otherwise its mostly removal, counters, and discard with relatively few threats which is far more control style than aggro style.
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* Esper Draw-Go
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Anyone over in the actual esper control thread won't hesitate to make the distinction that this list falls nowhere near the realm of control. its midrange. its not fast enough to be all out agro and its not really controlling what the other person does. its just trying to play out threats and make sure that the way is either clear or made clear to get those threats to connect. very much like junk, jund or URW Geist midrange decks do.
I have no issue with the midrange tag. Only the idea that midrange means "aggro plus control".
It might be a terrible control deck, but its utterly incapable of being an aggro deck in any way shape or form. Just call it esper midrange or esper mentor and leave it at that.
And I don't even know who the OP or mod is who would change it, nor does anyone but me probably really care, so I've said my piece and will leave it at that.
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Round 1 vs Affinity:
Game 1 he has a slow start allowing Lingering Souls to keep me in the game against cranial plated vault skirges. Finally I get to stick a Mentor and swamp him with monks taking him down from 35-ish life to 0. Second game I draw land 4 or 5 turns in a row. Last game I get to go engineered explosives into zealous persecution into stony silence while Tasigur hits for the win.
Round 2 vs BW tokens
I make a misplay on my inquisition taking dismember (I only have Tasigur as my only threat) instead of spectral procession, he plays the procession + an anthem enchantment and beats me down.
Second game I see none of sideboard cards and draw tons of land. 2-0 loss against a matchup I generally consider favourable if we get a mentor out, but this didn't happen.
Round 3 vs Scapeshift.
First game an early tasigur gets a fast clock going and closes it out. Second game I'm not fast enough and he combos off. Third game early Tasigur again while toughtseize gets rid of a Scapeshift and the boarded in counter suite does its work snagging remands and dispelling cryptics.
Round 4 vs Jund.
He plays threat after threat, I need my spot removal to get rid of 2 confidants but get overrun by goyfs and scoozes. Second game I make a side boarding mistake, I should have sided in the timely reinforcements and some other stuff instead of the counters (stupid, we don't want to trade 1 for 1 with Jund). To make matters worse my first 7 are a stinker, and I mull to a pretty crappy 6 card hand. Shoud have mulled that too but kept. I draw no spot removal can't answer his t2 confidant and get overrun again.
Round 5 vs Merfolk
First game I get a nut hand and the fish die under an avalanche of prowessing monks. Second game I barely stabilise at 3 life: I have a mentor and a monk with untapped mana, he has 3 mutavaults and the mana to activate them. He attacks with all 3, I play a tought scour, block them all (kill 2), mentor lives and I draw lingering souls from the top giving me enough bodies to turn the tables and finish him off.
Round 6 vs gifts ungiven/unburial rites.
First game he gets to reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria naming white. I find no pact or cut so I die.
Second game was really freakish I managed to get 2 myth realized at 8/8 ish but he draws 2 tec edges and 4 ghost quarter cutting me completely off white. I get close (he's down to 4) but die to Gideon beats in the end.
Lots of (bad) misplays on my part but also some bad matchups (especially the last one) and strangely there was not a single Grixis Delver or Splinter Twin deck in the entire tourney (which are the big fish we prey upon IMO).
Stars of the day: Monastery Mentor (if he sticks, we win) and Tasigur (I'm definately keeping 3 of these monsters in)
Flop of the day: Myth Realized: either ddn't see him in the matchups where he could have mattered, or I didn't draw any spells to get it big enough or it was just too slow to matter (or my opponent destroyed all my white source).
Is there by any chance darkblast useful in this deck? You can abuse the prowess trigger with this card(upkeep -1/-1 target creature, delve 3 return to hand -1/-1 again for a total of +2/+2 on all your prowess monks and 2x monk tokens) and at the same time dumping cards in your graveyard helps with the delve on some of your powerful cards.
The reason why this is not named 'Esper Control' is that when I tried to post this kind of discussion on the 'Esper Control' thread, people didn't like it and claimed it was not control due to the lack of board wipes, low count counterspells, and creature based win con (rather than a big flood of tokens with WSZ or manland activations).
The archetype proved to be strong and we continued the discussion here, offering some variants for the deck to be discussed as well (such as delve and the other more control approach). It is certanly not an aggro deck as Zoo/Burn/Junk Liege, but it's certainly no BW Tokens/UWR Control/'Esper control' either.
So I stood up for Esper Aggro/Control: BUW Midrange, since it's a deck that relies on playing big threats (such as Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, Tombstalker) or hard to deal with creatures (such as Mentor with his prowess and the tokens he leaves behind, Myth Realized or Geist of Saint Traft), while playing a control role over the opponent by killing their threats, delaying/countering their spells and get to the tap-out and kill you game state, no matter how long it takes.
Personally, I don't think we need a silly name like 'Mentor's pizza pie' or a too constructed name like 'Esper kind-of-control-with-some-creatures'. It's pretty much an out of the ordinary midrange deck, that doesn't need a BG shell. I don't expect people to write 'Esper Aggro/Control' or 'Esper Midrange' when they submit a decklist, it's just a name for the thread to be identified in the forums, so that we can easily evolve our way into Tier 1 (hopefully) one of this days.
We can sit and talk about semantics all you want, but it won't help the deck to grow and it doesn't improve the discussion in any way (mtg related). I'm not saying it's a waste of time, I just think that flooding the discussion with this won't help to sharpen the decklist.
Regarding Darkblast, it can be a blowout for BBU int the form of Blast, then Scour, dredge, then Blast again, provding +3 prowess to mentor and already in the blattlefield tokens, and 3 new tokens, and the possibility of killing multiple enemy creatures at the same time in a weird out of the blue combat trick.
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I need some help with with tron went to a pptq last week and the meta was about 40%. Stony Silence helped a lot and almost won me all the games it came out as long as it came in early. What side board options does this deck have to fight it?
I need some help with with tron went to a pptq last week and the meta was about 40%. Stony Silence helped a lot and almost won me all the games it came out as long as it came in early. What side board options does this deck have to fight it?
Discard and an early threat are you best friends. If you can slam a T2 Stony Silence, you are good to go, don't be afraid to tap out activating manlands to go for the kill, the faster you can be, the better the MU gets.
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UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
All the modes are relevant; bouncing a creature is often the same as removing it as this deck likes it alpha strike, the cantrip is nice with a Mentor on the board and the lifelink can shore up Burn/aggro match ups.
What about Sorin 1.0 vs Sorin 2.0?
The emblem has some definite Pros to it vs the 2/2 flying token, maybe its just that I love the Duel Deck Sorin 1.0....
@ the permission heavier build... I think permission belongs in the sideboard for this deck. I feel like I want to be as aggressive as possible game 1 and cards like Remand/Mana Leak/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare can be rather hit or miss. I like the discard/removal heavy build backed up with a full set of Mentors/Snaps/2-3 Tasigurs
I've considered Azorius Charm before, too. From testing it in other decks, it's a fine removal spell (it puts creatures on top of libraries--significantly better than bounce, as it's card parity) that cantrips when other removal spells would be dead. Anticipate has been treating me sooooo well in my flex slot, though, that I'm loath to give it up, even though I do want better life gain maindeck. ...And whenever I try Azorius Charm, I almost never use the Lifelink mode.
I strongly prefer Sorin, Solemn Visitor over Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, simply because Sorin SV often gains so much life per turn that Burn has to Skullcrack my head every time I +1 him or they lose. Sorin LoI cannot pull off the same without sticking at least 2 Lifelink tokens and an emblem, and I've consistently found that he's too slow against Burn. Given that this deck can have trouble against fast aggro...
Here's my 4 Myth Realized Esper Mentor list that I use on Cockatrice:
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
1 Murderous Cut
2 Slaughter Pact
4 Thought Scour
1 Anticipate
4 Lingering Souls
4 Myth Realized
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
1 Celestial Purge
4 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
1 Countersquall
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
1 Consuming Vapors
I started off with a normal Esper Mentor list back before Dragons of Tarkir was released. I was never quite satisfied with the 4-drop slot--although Sorin SV did treat me well in that slot, he was the easiest swap for Ojutai Exemplars and Narset Transcendent back when I tested those cards.
Myth Realized has been treating me well enough to displace my 4-mana top end (and let me drop to 22 lands from my original 23 lands), though. I've found that this is one of the best shells for Myth Realized--a Turn 1 one gets fat fairly fast, even a late one or a Cryptic Command-bounced one still gets reasonably large (around 3/3), and late ones also have synergy with Monastery Mentor. I've swung with a 7/7 MR four or more times so far--sometimes, it even becomes 7/7 in response to double Bolt!
Something had to go to fit all 4 MRs in--I dropped a Tasigur and...blasphemous, I know...a Mentor. I tend to be pretty conservative with Mentor, though, so he's often a 4-drop anyway (resolve him, then cast or hold up a noncreature spell straight afterwards).
I like 1 Murderous Cut/2 Slaughter Pact. Slaughter Pact being free is awesome with Mentor, and my Delve gets sticky at times, even with only 2 Delve cards in the deck (and especially since I sometimes want Tiago to Flashback Cut).
I'm normally not a fan of Spell Snare in any deck with Tasigur in it--I get Snare back with Tasigur's ability too often, which is a sure sign that my opponents care the least about Snare--but I think it's a safe gamble when there's only 1 Tasigur left in the deck. If I switch back to 2 Tasigurs, though, I'm swapping Snare out for Spell Pierce or cantrips.
The mana base is sort of tailored for 4 MR. Seachrome Coast has ETB untapped surprisingly often.
Since I dropped Sorin SV and Vault of the Archangel at one point, I struggled to find a decent source of maindeck life gain after I read in one source that Vault is meant for life gain. I tried Sorin SV again (good, but a clunky 4-drop, and not something I want to play in a 22-land list), Vault instead of Marsh Flats (got in the way of fast MRs too often), Punish Ignorance (surprisingly good from my testing, counters stuff pretty often, and pretty punishing against Burn because they're often too tapped out to Skullcrack it, but still something I don't feel like holding up all the time)...in the end, I took out 1 Creeping Tar Pit for 1 Vault and I'm the happiest with that change (I get to put Anticipate back in if all I devote to life gain are lands). Vault's been fairly useless for me in this deck, though--I rarely activate it, which means that I don't tend to gain life from it.
I'm trying Batterskull in the finisher sideboard slot because it's a noncreature threat. I suppose bouncing it and casting it every turn with Mentor out is Magical Christmas Land, but equipping a Spirit token with it isn't.
The toy anti-midrange sideboard slot is Consuming Vapors. I want to live the dream and cast it with Mentor or MR out, but I haven't run into enough midrange lately. It's probably somewhat useless if they have Spirit tokens out, but taking out 1-2 big guys would be pretty legit.
I like having a shadow of doubt in the main. In addition to sniping fetchlands and tutors, it synergizes with path to exile.
One thing I am kind of surprised with is that there are no sweepers anywhere in the 75. This feels like a control deck and control decks usually want 1-2 verdicts. Was it tested and found wanting?
Also surgical extraction in the SB seems good. The lack of any graveyard hate was causing me trouble in reanimator and dredge matches (path snap path notwithstanding
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
You actually bring up two good points.
1) Graveyard hate
I have started to play 2 copies of Leyline of the Void in my board. I had quite a few games where I wished I had access to graveyard hate.
And what's important is that the hate isn't as narrow as some people say. I mean let's look at the format. Everybody is either playing Delve spells, Tarmogoyf, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage on top of the dedicated graveyard decks.
Leyline of the Void can be quite the beating. Someone played it in the mirror against me and holding all these dead delve spells and Snapcaster Mages and Thought Scour suddenly looks quite silly.
2) Sweepers
I was toying with this idea but I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet. If you have many decks in your meta where a wrath would be great you can probably get away with running a few copies of Supreme Verdict in your board.
There is nothing aggro about it... like... at all. Our 1 drop is... nothing or myth realized... our 2 drop is... snapcaster mage... our 3 drop is... lingering souls and a mentor that you never want to play on turn 3.
The fastest conceivable kill would be uh... turn 5 if we do t3 mentor into a craptonne of spells followed by a craptonne of spells?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I used to play a single supreme verdict in the side, but have switched it to engineered explosives to give me a bit more options vs artfifact/enchantment heavy decks. It can't be snapped back though, which is a definate downside when you scour it. Otoh it wins me games vs 8rack, elves and merfolk by blowing up racks, the 1 cmc enchantment that does damage if you have 1 card or less in hand, elf weenies, spreading seas and fish lords.
I agree with this guy:
Sadly, at least in my classification of decks, midrange IS a type of aggro-control. I also classify tempo decks as aggro-control.
Sometimes, you're the guy who has to play the control role and go targeted discard into removal into cantrip into removal into counterspell into manland into activate, and sometimes, you're the guy who has to play the aggro role and go targeted discard into threat into cantrip into threat into counterspell.
Decks like Zoo often go threat into threat into threat into removal and thus get called aggro, and rarer decks like UWR Control tend to go counterspell into removal into counterspell into removal into draw into removal...into manland into draw into counterspell into activate and thus get called control. Decks with sequences that tend to be squarely in between those two types' sequences (such as us) tend to get called aggro-control.
(I don't want to have to talk about monstrosities like combo-control or midrange-combo.)
Pretty much.
Tempo and Midrange are both Aggro-Control. They both combine Aggro with Control elements.
Like Willy Edel said in one of his articles when talking about Midrange. There are basically Control decks but with creatures.
That's especially obvious when looking at BG/x decks or this one.
I realize naming decks is its own challenge, but if a deck absolutely cannot win on turn 4 with any sequence, and its number of 1 and 2 drop creatures combined is 0-4, it not an aggro deck.
The deck is a hybrid of jeskai control, abzan midrange, and BW tokens. It has nothing in common whatsoever with zoo, affnity, stompy, merfolk, etc.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
This is a simple matter on the usage of terminology
There are three big archetypes. Control, Aggro and Combo. All decks use elements of these three.
Midrange and Tempo are both hybrids consisting of Aggro and Control therefore they are both Aggro-Control.
They both combine aggressive elements aka threats(Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Delver of Secrets, etc.) with Control elements(Abrupt Decay, Mana Leak, Thoughtseize, etc.)
It just depends on the composition and on the way in which they are utilized that makes them either Tempo or Midrange.
Discard for example is great in Midrange decks that want to answer the opponents cards before deploying their own powerful threats. Tempo decks are not really interested in it though. Since they want do to deploy an early threat and then ride it to victory while disrupting the opponent on the way and discard is negate tempo in the way that you have spent mana to answer a card that your opponent didn't actually played and spent mana on.
Nobody disagrees that merfolk, zoo, and affinity are aggro decks. What makes them aggro? I'd say the fact they can consistently deal lethal on turn 4 if not disrupted and the plethora of creatures in the 1 and 2 cmc slots. If a deck isn't featuring components of either of those things what on earth would make it aggro?
Saying all decks must be aggro, control, or combo is pointless frankly. Nobody calls twin UR combo. Nobody calls GR tron GR control. Nobody calls burn RW aggro. There is no dilemma here of needing to classify a deck within these 3 archetypes - as you say, most decks cross/blur the boundaries between these anyways.
Frankly if I was forced to put this deck into those 3 categories it'd be esper control, period. The lack of wraths and cryptic command is kind of glaring for a control deck, but otherwise its mostly removal, counters, and discard with relatively few threats which is far more control style than aggro style.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
It might be a terrible control deck, but its utterly incapable of being an aggro deck in any way shape or form. Just call it esper midrange or esper mentor and leave it at that.
And I don't even know who the OP or mod is who would change it, nor does anyone but me probably really care, so I've said my piece and will leave it at that.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant/Sorcery 23
2 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Thought Scour
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalker 1
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Enchantments 3
3 Myth Realized
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Disenchant
2 Spell Snare
2 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
Round 1 vs Affinity:
Game 1 he has a slow start allowing Lingering Souls to keep me in the game against cranial plated vault skirges. Finally I get to stick a Mentor and swamp him with monks taking him down from 35-ish life to 0. Second game I draw land 4 or 5 turns in a row. Last game I get to go engineered explosives into zealous persecution into stony silence while Tasigur hits for the win.
Round 2 vs BW tokens
I make a misplay on my inquisition taking dismember (I only have Tasigur as my only threat) instead of spectral procession, he plays the procession + an anthem enchantment and beats me down.
Second game I see none of sideboard cards and draw tons of land. 2-0 loss against a matchup I generally consider favourable if we get a mentor out, but this didn't happen.
Round 3 vs Scapeshift.
First game an early tasigur gets a fast clock going and closes it out. Second game I'm not fast enough and he combos off. Third game early Tasigur again while toughtseize gets rid of a Scapeshift and the boarded in counter suite does its work snagging remands and dispelling cryptics.
Round 4 vs Jund.
He plays threat after threat, I need my spot removal to get rid of 2 confidants but get overrun by goyfs and scoozes. Second game I make a side boarding mistake, I should have sided in the timely reinforcements and some other stuff instead of the counters (stupid, we don't want to trade 1 for 1 with Jund). To make matters worse my first 7 are a stinker, and I mull to a pretty crappy 6 card hand. Shoud have mulled that too but kept. I draw no spot removal can't answer his t2 confidant and get overrun again.
Round 5 vs Merfolk
First game I get a nut hand and the fish die under an avalanche of prowessing monks. Second game I barely stabilise at 3 life: I have a mentor and a monk with untapped mana, he has 3 mutavaults and the mana to activate them. He attacks with all 3, I play a tought scour, block them all (kill 2), mentor lives and I draw lingering souls from the top giving me enough bodies to turn the tables and finish him off.
Round 6 vs gifts ungiven/unburial rites.
First game he gets to reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria naming white. I find no pact or cut so I die.
Second game was really freakish I managed to get 2 myth realized at 8/8 ish but he draws 2 tec edges and 4 ghost quarter cutting me completely off white. I get close (he's down to 4) but die to Gideon beats in the end.
Lots of (bad) misplays on my part but also some bad matchups (especially the last one) and strangely there was not a single Grixis Delver or Splinter Twin deck in the entire tourney (which are the big fish we prey upon IMO).
Stars of the day: Monastery Mentor (if he sticks, we win) and Tasigur (I'm definately keeping 3 of these monsters in)
Flop of the day: Myth Realized: either ddn't see him in the matchups where he could have mattered, or I didn't draw any spells to get it big enough or it was just too slow to matter (or my opponent destroyed all my white source).
The archetype proved to be strong and we continued the discussion here, offering some variants for the deck to be discussed as well (such as delve and the other more control approach). It is certanly not an aggro deck as Zoo/Burn/Junk Liege, but it's certainly no BW Tokens/UWR Control/'Esper control' either.
So I stood up for Esper Aggro/Control: BUW Midrange, since it's a deck that relies on playing big threats (such as Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, Tombstalker) or hard to deal with creatures (such as Mentor with his prowess and the tokens he leaves behind, Myth Realized or Geist of Saint Traft), while playing a control role over the opponent by killing their threats, delaying/countering their spells and get to the tap-out and kill you game state, no matter how long it takes.
Personally, I don't think we need a silly name like 'Mentor's pizza pie' or a too constructed name like 'Esper kind-of-control-with-some-creatures'. It's pretty much an out of the ordinary midrange deck, that doesn't need a BG shell. I don't expect people to write 'Esper Aggro/Control' or 'Esper Midrange' when they submit a decklist, it's just a name for the thread to be identified in the forums, so that we can easily evolve our way into Tier 1 (hopefully) one of this days.
We can sit and talk about semantics all you want, but it won't help the deck to grow and it doesn't improve the discussion in any way (mtg related). I'm not saying it's a waste of time, I just think that flooding the discussion with this won't help to sharpen the decklist.
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Regarding Darkblast, it can be a blowout for BBU int the form of Blast, then Scour, dredge, then Blast again, provding +3 prowess to mentor and already in the blattlefield tokens, and 3 new tokens, and the possibility of killing multiple enemy creatures at the same time in a weird out of the blue combat trick.
Discard and an early threat are you best friends. If you can slam a T2 Stony Silence, you are good to go, don't be afraid to tap out activating manlands to go for the kill, the faster you can be, the better the MU gets.