I'm not a huge fan of kalitas here. Path is your primary removal spell, which doesn't work so well, and you don't have many ways to trade creatures (snap is quite small).
I also thing remand is worse than something like mana leak or deprive.
Cutting 2 kalitas, 1 blessed alliance, 2 remand, and adding 1 tasigur, 2 deprive, 1 serum visions, +1 murderous cut might be worth considering. I'd still worry about having too few threats though, clique especially could replace a snapcaster or two.
Your sideboard probably wants more counterspells (countersquall, dispel), a couple wraths, a couple ancestral visions/painful truths/esper charm, some grave hate (ravenous trap, leyline of the void, surgical extraction), a couple of stony silences, maybe a zealous persecution, and then something for tron/valakut (fulminator, rain of tears, spreading seas).
Otherwise, generally good cards like runed halo or leyline, timely reinforcements, ee, celestial purge, geist, clique, etc are good.
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
I like where this is going but there is strange things in this deck. Why 1 scour when you play 3 tasigur and 4 souls? IMHO V-Clique is a more impactful card than the second brutality, 3 disfigure seems like a lot in the main, needs some blessed alliiance, and I would recommend Shizo, Death's Storehouse to compliment Tasigur, Geist and V-Clique.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
I like where this is going but there is strange things in this deck. Why 1 scour when you play 3 tasigur and 4 souls? IMHO V-Clique is a more impactful card than the second brutality, 3 disfigure seems like a lot in the main, needs some blessed alliiance, and I would recommend Shizo, Death's Storehouse to compliment Tasigur, Geist and V-Clique.
The over-performers were Liliana, the Last Hope, Collective Brutality and Lingering Souls. Geist of Saint Traft was also excellent but a bit disappointing vs. creature heavy decks. What was missing (I played the deck also at a second tournament) in the deck was un-clunky removal or mass removal. I haven't tested Blessed Alliance yet. But I actually think some sweepers in the side might help (Damnation, Languish or the new -3/-3 + free cast 3 cmc spell from AER?! Yahenni's Expertise I think (-> Wrath and drop Geist, Jace, Lili or Souls seems good)) but the good ones cost 4 mana. The deck feels good, but it took me too long to stabilize against go-wide strategies. Infect is almost a cake-walk with this list though
V-Clique might also be an interesting choice for the SB against big mana decks in place of Souls.
Currently, the deck is disassembled because I built a Grixis Jace list.
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
I like where this is going but there is strange things in this deck. Why 1 scour when you play 3 tasigur and 4 souls? IMHO V-Clique is a more impactful card than the second brutality, 3 disfigure seems like a lot in the main, needs some blessed alliiance, and I would recommend Shizo, Death's Storehouse to compliment Tasigur, Geist and V-Clique.
The over-performers were Liliana, the Last Hope, Collective Brutality and Lingering Souls. Geist of Saint Traft was also excellent but a bit disappointing vs. creature heavy decks. What was missing (I played the deck also at a second tournament) in the deck was un-clunky removal or mass removal. I haven't tested Blessed Alliance yet. But I actually think some sweepers in the side might help (Damnation, Languish or the new -3/-3 + free cast 3 cmc spell from AER?! Yahenni's Expertise I think (-> Wrath and drop Geist, Jace, Lili or Souls seems good)) but the good ones cost 4 mana. The deck feels good, but it took me too long to stabilize against go-wide strategies. Infect is almost a cake-walk with this list though
V-Clique might also be an interesting choice for the SB against big mana decks in place of Souls.
Currently, the deck is disassembled because I built a Grixis Jace list.
Grixis Jace is legit (As you can see by my tag) I would recommend Elspeth, Knight-Errant since she can get your geist though. Her and Shizo should help a lot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I wonder how many cheap spells does one need to turn on Delve? I have a configuration that has fewer cheap spells than the average list or cheap spells that I don't want to exile if possible, because it has Flashback or it is a possible SCM-target like PtE or Negate. Essentially I only have 4 Serum Visions and 8 Fetchlands, but no IoK or Thought Scour. Is Tasigur working in such an environment?
I'd say that depends on your build. How many delve creatures are you running?
However, I believe Thought scour is very important and should not necessarily be missed out. It has strong synergies with Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (I consider the latter one of the main reasons to play esper).
The spoiler of Fatal Push from AER inspired me to rethink my previous BUW midrange list. One of my main complaints was the lack of a cheap and efficient removal spell that doesn't ramp our opponents on turn 1 to 2. Fatal Push could help although it is still no Lightning bolt
That Lilly tech is so hot and honestly never occured to me before. Dose everything we want and recurs our threats.
Geist is so bad right now though. With all those cards dumping in to the graveyard have you considered replacing them with 2 zombie fish a snappy and a four manna Walker like Sorin or the alley of Zendicar to pump souls?
Needs tuning, but I think Fatal push might give the deck a push ba dum ts. Also, with so many cheap cards in esper colors available, the delver idea might not be all that bad to try again..
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
That Lilly tech is so hot and honestly never occured to me before. Dose everything we want and recurs our threats.
Geist is so bad right now though. With all those cards dumping in to the graveyard have you considered replacing them with 2 zombie fish a snappy and a four manna Walker like Sorin or the alley of Zendicar to pump souls?
Yes, Liliana, the last Hope was great against creature based or grindy decks and I can really recommend her.
I agree that Geist of Saint Traft has a wide spectrum from being awesome to being almost useless. But why do you think he's particularly bad at the moment? Anyways, I like your suggestions, although I wouldn't want to focus too much on GY interactions but 1 Gurmag Angler or +1 Snapcaster Mage should be fine. One of the strength of this deck is the diversity of the threats such that GY hate doesn't cripple it completely. Maybe 2 Vendilion Clique and a 4 cmc walker?
Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to the deck and have gone through a lot of the posts here but wanted to ask about Dark Confidant.
What are the advantages / disadvantages to playing it in midrange? It seems to work quite well with cheap discard and removal as well as Monastary Mentor as a two of, as a finisher alongside manlands. Is it just because of Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to the deck and have gone through a lot of the posts here but wanted to ask about Dark Confidant.
What are the advantages / disadvantages to playing it in midrange? It seems to work quite well with cheap discard and removal as well as Monastary Mentor as a two of, as a finisher alongside manlands. Is it just because of Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Thanks!
Hey!
Yes, delve creatures are a major concern when you run Dark Confidant. I don't have experience with Bob but I don't think that he's unplayable, it sounds actually very reasonable to run him alongside with Monastery Mentor. The question is only, how good those two are with the soon to be available Fatal Push because both creatures don't generate value immediately. Of course, both can take over the game if left unchecked, but they enable our opponents' removal (similar to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in my list). My concern would be that we shouldn't run too many creatures that are susceptible to common removal and that don't generate immediate value.
On the other hand, if Tron and Valakut decks gain more popularity due to the recent B&R update, that could very well be an option. Dark Confidant puts more pressure on non-interactive decks than Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (although I think the latter is more flexible and well suited for the delve plan). Instead of Mentor you could also try Geist of Saint Traft. He should become better in BUW with Fatal Push available.
Thanks for your reply!
I'm actually a long time U/R delver player but wanted to change things up a bit.
I like the idea of Jace, but because of my local meta I have a lot of graveyard hate and bounce effects that really used to hinder me in the Grixis Delver list I used to run before Izzet.
Also, I have most agro decks, affinity and lots of burn.
From past experience playing Bob actually helped me against those decks more than not, just because I was running such a low curve, I would draw into the answers when needed and quickly seize control and turn the corner.
How would you recommend going about running a non delve, lower curve list with Bob?
I've been playing this on MTGO to increasing success.
4 3-2's
2 4-1's (with 1 barely missing a 5-0 today due to play error)
This deck is extremely hard to pilot. I recommend this to the pros and competitive players with 10+ years of experience. If you learn to pilot this deck optimally, you can expect a 70% winrate vs the field with about a 65% edge vs Tron as it's worst matchup. This deck is special because it's insanely hard to pilot but if you can, it will be extremely rewarding. I'm deciding to release this decklist to the public because sooner of later it will be picked up when I 5-0 and I want to give back to the community and make a name for myself.
Darkslick Shores Helps our early game curve out. Sometimes it's correct to play this on T3 instead of T1/T2 if you need to fetchland thin your deck.
IslandSwampPlains There's a card called Path to Exile in the format. We're not too worried about not having 3 basic Island for Cryptic Command vs Blood Moon because we have Anguished Unmaking in the board and we can still maneuver decently with our basics.
Watery GraveHallowed FountainGodless Shrine - There really good. A lot of the times you're going to have to fetch for these and play them untapped to shock yourself to play your cards and have correct mana for possible upcoming relevant spells.
2 Creeping Tar Pit: Card is great. Tasigur + Tar Pit is 7 damage a turn. Combined with Cryptic, you can put them on a 2 or 3 turn clock based on the situation. The only debate is to run 2 or 3, and 2 in this decklist I've found to be optimal.
1 Westvale Abbey: Diversification of manlands because it can't be Lightning Bolted. It's a late-game token generator. Ormendahl has so far been somewhat of a win-more so far, but I haven't put in a large enough sample size of games. I've played about 35 League matches with this deck, and the token-generation late game has seen more prominence so far. It can combo with Lingering Souls and 1 Snapcaster Mage and come out of nowhere on Turn 6. If there is a card to cut/change in this deck, it would be this card but so far I can't find an adequate replacement.
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang Card is insane. We're playing Esper Control with a consistent Turn 2 Tarmogoyf essentially that has a late-game attrition ability activation. With incredibly correct planning, you can get great value from Tasigur activation's such as getting back a Cryptic Command/Snapcaster, but often they give you a Thought Scour/ Inquiistion of Kozilek. Another thing special about Tasigur is that it fades Abrupt Decay.
4 Lingering Souls Card is insane. Great vs almost every matchup except for Tron where it's decent as a slow threat.
3 Snapcaster Mage Card is insane. But! 3-of is correct. Many people *cough* Corey Burkhart *cough* run 4 Snapcasters in their control lists. The problem with this is many times you're opening hands will contain 2 Snapcasters and that's terrible for early game. Ozman Ozguney in his Modern UB Control list runs 3 too.
4 Serum Visions Card's insane. 1 land Serum Visions hand? Snap Keep! Essentially, but that's not a hard rule so look at the rest of the cards in your hand guys.
4 Thought Scour Card's decent. Mainly powers T2 Tasigur engine. Don't thought scour your opponent if they mulligan and scry top unless they gave you some live tells that it's a land and they mulled to 4 or less. I've ran the simulations and it isn't that +EV in the long run.
3 Thoughtseize Most midrange decks ran a 4-2 split of 4 IoK, 2 Thoughtseize, but because of Elderpzi we need to run a 3-3 split. Card's insane.
1 Go for the Throat Card's great. We're super favorable vs Affinity so it's a fine concession. Remember to rep (represent) the Go for the Throat as a counter/something else vs Affinity when it's the last card sitting in your hand.
3 Cryptic Command Card's insane. You need to master this card. All 4 modes are super relevant and the tap-all creatures has led to epic race-blowouts vs Elderpzi, etc.
3 Blessed Alliance Card's insane. Sup Burn, Sup Reality Smasher, Sup Death's Shadow Aggro, Sup Infect. Sometimes you can be clutch and use the mode to untap Tasigur to block in a race.
You seem to be quite sure of the eventual success o.O
I think your list has a couple of problems though.
With so many cantrips, I think you could probably go down to 22 lands, you don't need to make a ton of land drops. If you lowered your curve a bit, this seems like a good direction to go. I think you don't need two hero's downfall, perhaps none at all. With lingering souls and tarpit, as well as discard and counterspells, planeswalkers aren't like to be a problem, and something like slaughter pact, or soon more fatal pushes, would likely do you some good.
On that topic, not playing path to exile seems terrible.
I genuinely see you having a 0% win rate vs valakut decks. You have too few ways to realistically kill titan, hell, half your discard spells miss it, countersquall misses it, half of your kill spells miss it, etc.
Secondly, you have no real source of card draw, outside of tasigur. Esper charm, painful truths, or ancestral visions feel like they'd do a lot for you.
Westvale abbey also seems weaker than vault of the archangel or ghost quarter, as far as utility lands go.
Nihil spellbomb also feels out of place. Ravenous trap as additional dredge hate feels stronger.
3 elspeth, sun's champion also feels like overkill, especially with only 23 lands. Sorin lord of innistrad, or solemn visitor feel like better planeswalkers to consider. Even 4 mana gideon might be better than elspeth in this deck.
I'd point out that comparing snapcaster in grixis to snapcaster in esper isn't really ideal.
I do agree three in this list is ideal, but thats because you have neither lightning bolt or kolaghan's command, which both make snapcaster much more appealing.
Your sideboard guide also needs to be looked at.
Many of your numbers are no longer correct (you don't have 4 cryptics to cut vs bogles)
Or you include cards you don't have in your board (no threads of disloyalty vs death's shadow).
While the deck is certainly interesting, I would hold your horses on its power level.
You have yet to go 5-0 with it, and while that doesn't mean the deck is bad, you say it should have a 65% matchup at worst, which is honestly silly.
My Matchup vs RG Valakut decks probably has me as a 40%-60% dog. I really liked your Ghost Quarter suggestion. Ghost quarter plus Surgical Extraction is lights out for Valakut if they aren't Through the Breaching Emrakul's.
I agree with you now that 4 Snapcaster Mages in Grixis Control is correct. You made a very good point about it there.
I did mention that the sb guide is terribly incomplete, I'll refine it tomorrow.
I have a different perspective on some of your card suggestions Cody_X.
With the heavy 3 mana curve in this deck, I feel 23 lands is optimal. The most important reason for 23 lands is it reduces mulligans imo.
We need Hero's Downfall for Nahiri or else the +2 uptick is insurmountable for lingering souls/tar pits to take out.
Slaughter Pact is good if we were playing a tempo game, which we are not.
Esper Charm and Painful Truths are too slow for us. I think Ancestral Vision is actually really bad and too slow. Corey lost many games with Grixis Control before the Turn 1 Ancestral Visions went off.
I think Nihil Spellbomb is strictly better than Ravenous Trap. We might cut the 1-of Spellbomb for a Rain of Tears to improve the RG Valakut matchup.
Elspeth is insane Cody. It board wipes Eldrazi or creates insurmountable value that wins.
Gideon and both Sorins are also way too frail.
I may be cocky (with the winrate %), but I'm a pretty determined guy and determination turns into obsession which turns into all that matters.
Hello everyone,
I recently posted asking about running Dark Confidant in an Esper Midrange list.
I'm am currently testing this deck and wanted some advice.
Note - the sideboard is utterly not closed to finished, I just threw some stuff in to see how it goes from there.
Some general comments on why I'm trying out this build.
I feel that running Dark Confidant in a shell with 7 three-drops in the 75 might be something that can work really well in a Monastery Mentor shell. Because of this I made some general modifications to fit it. First, Serum Visions works quite well with him, making the 4th draw step of the game quite impactful as well as mitigating damage. The upped level of cantrips are also for this purpose.
The two Thought Scour work well with both Mentor, as well as Lingering Souls and Surgical Extraction post board. I felt I had enough discard and spot removal in the form of both Path to Exile and Fatal Push to protect Mentor so I added the one Negate to preemptively deal with Tron and Scapeshift/Titan Breach, even if the deck is more tap-out style. Snapcaster Mage is just a value engine, either doubling spot removal, discard or cantrips for card advantage as well as working well with Thought Scour . The one Blessed Alliance is there mainly for life gain, Hexproof matchups and Infect/Deathshadow.
I might shave something to add the 23rd land if I have problems.
This is just some general thinking, I haven't had the time to properly test it yet.
Any suggestions or constructed criticism would be welcome!
4x Lingering Souls
4x Midnight Haunting
4x Raise the Alarm
2x Timely Reinforcements
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Path to Exile
Creatures
4x Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3x Snapcaster Mage
Other
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
2x Godless Shrine
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Moorland Haunt
1x Island
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Dismember
2x Disenchant
2x Celestial Purge
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Negate
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instant (11)
1 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Remand
2 Spell snare
1 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Serum Visions
Land (22)
2 Concealed Courtyard
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Shambling Vent
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
2 hallowed fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
bit.ly/thecezare
I also thing remand is worse than something like mana leak or deprive.
Cutting 2 kalitas, 1 blessed alliance, 2 remand, and adding 1 tasigur, 2 deprive, 1 serum visions, +1 murderous cut might be worth considering. I'd still worry about having too few threats though, clique especially could replace a snapcaster or two.
Your sideboard probably wants more counterspells (countersquall, dispel), a couple wraths, a couple ancestral visions/painful truths/esper charm, some grave hate (ravenous trap, leyline of the void, surgical extraction), a couple of stony silences, maybe a zealous persecution, and then something for tron/valakut (fulminator, rain of tears, spreading seas).
Otherwise, generally good cards like runed halo or leyline, timely reinforcements, ee, celestial purge, geist, clique, etc are good.
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Spell Queller
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
4x Zur the Enchanter
Enchantment (7)
3x Detention Sphere
2x Steel of the Godhead
1x Runed Halo
1x Threads of Disloyalty
Sorcery (11)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Lingering Souls
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
2x Smuggler's Copter
Land (23)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Shambling Vent
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Blessed Alliance
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Spreading Seas
1x Nevermore
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Worship
What do you think ?
It is based on this deck:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-esper-zur-modern
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104200
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104419
I like where this is going but there is strange things in this deck. Why 1 scour when you play 3 tasigur and 4 souls? IMHO V-Clique is a more impactful card than the second brutality, 3 disfigure seems like a lot in the main, needs some blessed alliiance, and I would recommend Shizo, Death's Storehouse to compliment Tasigur, Geist and V-Clique.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Hi and thanks for the good suggestions! The list was indeed sub-optimal because I couldn't acquire all the pieces in time. I think, I would throw out the Serum Visions and complete the playset of Thought scour. Also, Celestial Colonnade should be Creeping Tar Pit. And you are also right with Disfigure, one of them should be another Inquisition of Kozilek.
The over-performers were Liliana, the Last Hope, Collective Brutality and Lingering Souls. Geist of Saint Traft was also excellent but a bit disappointing vs. creature heavy decks. What was missing (I played the deck also at a second tournament) in the deck was un-clunky removal or mass removal. I haven't tested Blessed Alliance yet. But I actually think some sweepers in the side might help (Damnation, Languish or the new -3/-3 + free cast 3 cmc spell from AER?! Yahenni's Expertise I think (-> Wrath and drop Geist, Jace, Lili or Souls seems good)) but the good ones cost 4 mana. The deck feels good, but it took me too long to stabilize against go-wide strategies. Infect is almost a cake-walk with this list though
V-Clique might also be an interesting choice for the SB against big mana decks in place of Souls.
Currently, the deck is disassembled because I built a Grixis Jace list.
Grixis Jace is legit (As you can see by my tag) I would recommend Elspeth, Knight-Errant since she can get your geist though. Her and Shizo should help a lot.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I'd say that depends on your build. How many delve creatures are you running?
However, I believe Thought scour is very important and should not necessarily be missed out. It has strong synergies with Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (I consider the latter one of the main reasons to play esper).
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Concealed Courtyard
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Shambling Vent
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Countersquall
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Thought Scour
Sorcery
1 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
Creature
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalker
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Languish
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 To the Slaughter
Countersquall could be changed with MB Engineered Explosives or more discard (4th Inquisition of Kozilek)? SB is just a rough draft.
I don't think that too many Fatal Push are great because revolt will not trigger always (even with the synergy between the disappearing angel token from Geist of Saint Traft). Therefore, I suggest 2 - 3.
Geist is so bad right now though. With all those cards dumping in to the graveyard have you considered replacing them with 2 zombie fish a snappy and a four manna Walker like Sorin or the alley of Zendicar to pump souls?
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
4x Serum Visions
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Remand
3x Mana Leak
1x Dismember
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Lingering Souls
1x Murderous Cut
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Watery Grave
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Godless Shrine
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Shambling Vent
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Fatal Push
2x Stony Silence
2x Collective Brutality
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Ravenous Trap
Needs tuning, but I think Fatal push might give the deck a push ba dum ts. Also, with so many cheap cards in esper colors available, the delver idea might not be all that bad to try again..
Yes, Liliana, the last Hope was great against creature based or grindy decks and I can really recommend her.
I agree that Geist of Saint Traft has a wide spectrum from being awesome to being almost useless. But why do you think he's particularly bad at the moment? Anyways, I like your suggestions, although I wouldn't want to focus too much on GY interactions but 1 Gurmag Angler or +1 Snapcaster Mage should be fine. One of the strength of this deck is the diversity of the threats such that GY hate doesn't cripple it completely. Maybe 2 Vendilion Clique and a 4 cmc walker?
What are the advantages / disadvantages to playing it in midrange? It seems to work quite well with cheap discard and removal as well as Monastary Mentor as a two of, as a finisher alongside manlands. Is it just because of Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Thanks!
Hey!
Yes, delve creatures are a major concern when you run Dark Confidant. I don't have experience with Bob but I don't think that he's unplayable, it sounds actually very reasonable to run him alongside with Monastery Mentor. The question is only, how good those two are with the soon to be available Fatal Push because both creatures don't generate value immediately. Of course, both can take over the game if left unchecked, but they enable our opponents' removal (similar to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in my list). My concern would be that we shouldn't run too many creatures that are susceptible to common removal and that don't generate immediate value.
On the other hand, if Tron and Valakut decks gain more popularity due to the recent B&R update, that could very well be an option. Dark Confidant puts more pressure on non-interactive decks than Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (although I think the latter is more flexible and well suited for the delve plan). Instead of Mentor you could also try Geist of Saint Traft. He should become better in BUW with Fatal Push available.
I'm actually a long time U/R delver player but wanted to change things up a bit.
I like the idea of Jace, but because of my local meta I have a lot of graveyard hate and bounce effects that really used to hinder me in the Grixis Delver list I used to run before Izzet.
Also, I have most agro decks, affinity and lots of burn.
From past experience playing Bob actually helped me against those decks more than not, just because I was running such a low curve, I would draw into the answers when needed and quickly seize control and turn the corner.
How would you recommend going about running a non delve, lower curve list with Bob?
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Lingering Souls
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (26)
2 Disfigure
2 Dismember
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Go for the Throat
2 Countersquall
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Cryptic Command
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Damnation
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Hello,
I've been playing this on MTGO to increasing success.
4 3-2's
2 4-1's (with 1 barely missing a 5-0 today due to play error)
This deck is extremely hard to pilot. I recommend this to the pros and competitive players with 10+ years of experience. If you learn to pilot this deck optimally, you can expect a 70% winrate vs the field with about a 65% edge vs Tron as it's worst matchup. This deck is special because it's insanely hard to pilot but if you can, it will be extremely rewarding. I'm deciding to release this decklist to the public because sooner of later it will be picked up when I 5-0 and I want to give back to the community and make a name for myself.
Card & Number Choices:
Lands-
Polluted Delta, Marsh Flats, Flooded Strand: We need 9 to consistently hit the Turn 2 Tasigur combo of Fetch + Thought Scour + Tasigur. 4 Marsh Flats> 4 Flooded Strand is because we need to fetch our Swamp on T1 to play Disfigure, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Thoughtseize on T1 vs Burn/Zoo.
Darkslick Shores Helps our early game curve out. Sometimes it's correct to play this on T3 instead of T1/T2 if you need to fetchland thin your deck.
Island Swamp Plains There's a card called Path to Exile in the format. We're not too worried about not having 3 basic Island for Cryptic Command vs Blood Moon because we have Anguished Unmaking in the board and we can still maneuver decently with our basics.
Watery Grave Hallowed Fountain Godless Shrine - There really good. A lot of the times you're going to have to fetch for these and play them untapped to shock yourself to play your cards and have correct mana for possible upcoming relevant spells.
2 Creeping Tar Pit: Card is great. Tasigur + Tar Pit is 7 damage a turn. Combined with Cryptic, you can put them on a 2 or 3 turn clock based on the situation. The only debate is to run 2 or 3, and 2 in this decklist I've found to be optimal.
1 Westvale Abbey: Diversification of manlands because it can't be Lightning Bolted. It's a late-game token generator. Ormendahl has so far been somewhat of a win-more so far, but I haven't put in a large enough sample size of games. I've played about 35 League matches with this deck, and the token-generation late game has seen more prominence so far. It can combo with Lingering Souls and 1 Snapcaster Mage and come out of nowhere on Turn 6. If there is a card to cut/change in this deck, it would be this card but so far I can't find an adequate replacement.
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang Card is insane. We're playing Esper Control with a consistent Turn 2 Tarmogoyf essentially that has a late-game attrition ability activation. With incredibly correct planning, you can get great value from Tasigur activation's such as getting back a Cryptic Command/Snapcaster, but often they give you a Thought Scour/ Inquiistion of Kozilek. Another thing special about Tasigur is that it fades Abrupt Decay.
4 Lingering Souls Card is insane. Great vs almost every matchup except for Tron where it's decent as a slow threat.
3 Snapcaster Mage Card is insane. But! 3-of is correct. Many people *cough* Corey Burkhart *cough* run 4 Snapcasters in their control lists. The problem with this is many times you're opening hands will contain 2 Snapcasters and that's terrible for early game. Ozman Ozguney in his Modern UB Control list runs 3 too.
2 Disfigure Hi Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, Grim Flayer, Scavenging Ooze, Affinity, Burn, Infect
2 Dismember Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, Tasigur, the Golden Fang. This is basically our Path to Exile.
4 Serum Visions Card's insane. 1 land Serum Visions hand? Snap Keep! Essentially, but that's not a hard rule so look at the rest of the cards in your hand guys.
4 Thought Scour Card's decent. Mainly powers T2 Tasigur engine. Don't thought scour your opponent if they mulligan and scry top unless they gave you some live tells that it's a land and they mulled to 4 or less. I've ran the simulations and it isn't that +EV in the long run.
3 Inquisition of Kozilek Card's insane.
3 Thoughtseize Most midrange decks ran a 4-2 split of 4 IoK, 2 Thoughtseize, but because of Elderpzi we need to run a 3-3 split. Card's insane.
1 Go for the Throat Card's great. We're super favorable vs Affinity so it's a fine concession. Remember to rep (represent) the Go for the Throat as a counter/something else vs Affinity when it's the last card sitting in your hand.
2 Countersquall Card's really good. Collected Company Scapeshift Corey Burkhart, Karn Liberated
2 Hero's Downfall Nahiri, the Harbinger Karn Liberated, Liliana of the Veil, Other Liliana, Jace, Architect of Thought in UW or else are Lingering Souls do nothing.
3 Cryptic Command Card's insane. You need to master this card. All 4 modes are super relevant and the tap-all creatures has led to epic race-blowouts vs Elderpzi, etc.
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction Card's insane. Counters Snapcaster Mage, Lingering Souls, Dredge, other weirdo stuff
1 Nihil Spellbomb Card's solid. 4th Dredge hate.
3 Blessed Alliance Card's insane. Sup Burn, Sup Reality Smasher, Sup Death's Shadow Aggro, Sup Infect. Sometimes you can be clutch and use the mode to untap Tasigur to block in a race.
2 Collective Brutality Sup Burn. Card's great. Sup Noble Hierarch when we're on the play.
2 Anguished Unmaking Sup Blood Moon. More creature removal/ planeswalker removal.
1 Damnation Sup Eldrazi. Sup Elves. Abzan, Jund, Grixis Delver(RIP), Infect, Boggles lol.
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion CARD's INSANE. INSANE. Reality Smasher Thought-Knot Seer Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Drowner of Hope. Eldrazi keeps in Path to Exile and Dismember for Tasigur, we take out our Tasigurs and rofl.
I'd like to gradually take over the primer on Modern Esper Control because I believe I can propel this archetype to Tier 1 Status. Now go forth my sons, practice this deck heavily, perfect the sideboard guide with me, take down GP's and show these Modern Tier 1 Clowns how control players control plays. I've been playing Magic for 15 years competitively since I was 8 years old. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Awesome7574 http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?p_first=Kevin&p_last=Clarkson
Sideboard Guide: (INCOMPLETE I'm copy-pasting will update later)
Vs Boggles
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Tasigur
-4 Cryptic
+2 Anguished Unmaking
+3 Blessed Alliance
+1 Damnation
+2 Collective Brutality
Vs Death's Shadow Aggro:
+3 Blessed Alliance
+3 Threads of Disloyalty
+1 Damnation
+2 Anguished Unmaking
+2 Collective Brutality
-4 Cryptic Command
-2 Countersquall
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Tasigur
-1 Thought Scour
Vs Infect
-4 Cryptic Command
-2 Countersquall
+3 Blessed Alliance
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Damnation
Vs Naya Zoo/ Burn
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Dismember
+3 Blessed Alliance
+2 Collective Brutality
Vs Bant Tribal Spirits CoCo
(play)
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Anguished Unmaking
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Hero's Downfall
(draw)
+3 Blessed Alliance
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Anguished Unmaking
-4 Thought Scour
-2 Cryptic Command
-1 Tasigur
Vs G/W CoCo Taxes
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Thought Scour
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Anguished Unmaking (for rest in peace)
Vs Bant Eldrazi
-2 Countersquall, -3 Cryptic Command, -4 Tasigur
+3 Blessed Alliance, +2 Anguished Unmaking, +3 Elspeth, +1 Damnation
Vs Abzan Midrange
(play)
-2 Thoughtseize, -3 Path to Exile, -2 Countersquall, -2 Cryptic Command
+3 Threads of Disloyalty, +2 Anguished Unmaking, +2 Collective Brutality, +2 Surgical Extraction
(draw)
-1 Tasigur, -4 Thought Scour, -2 Countersquall
+2 Anguished Unmaking
+3 Threads of Disloyalty
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Surgical Extraction
Vs Mardu Midrange
+3 Threads of Disloyalty
+2 Brutality
+1 Surgical
-2 Countersquall
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Dismember
Vs Dredge:
+3 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Surgical Extraction
+3 Threads of Disloyalty (for Bloodghast)
+2 Anguished Unmaking (for Haunted Dead, Golgari Grave Troll)
+2 Collective Brutality (for Stinkweed Imp, Spirit Token)
-2 Thoughtseize
-4 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Dismember
-2 Disfigure
-2 Hero's Downfall
Vs Living End
+3 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Collective Brutality
-2 Disfigure
-3 Dismember
-2 Hero's Downfall
Vs Grixis DelverControl
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Disfigure
-1 Cryptic Command
+3 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Collective Brutality
Vs Grixis Control
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Collective Brutality
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Disfigure
-1 Murderous Cut
Vs Eldrazi Tron
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Disfigure
-2 Countersquall
-1 Cryptic Command
+3 Elspeth
+2 Anguished Unmaking
+3 Blessed Alliance
Vs RG TitanShift
-2 Disfigure
-2 Dismember
-1 Go for the Throat
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 Surgical Extraction
VS Martyr of Sands/ Serra's Avenger/Proclamation Rebirth Combo
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Damnation
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Murderous Cut
+2 Collective Brutality
-4 Lingering Souls
-3 Path to Exile
-2 Dismember
Vs Jeskai Nahiri Control
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Disfigure
-2 Dismember
Vs UW Control
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Anguished Unmaking
-3 Dismember
-2 Disfigure
I think your list has a couple of problems though.
With so many cantrips, I think you could probably go down to 22 lands, you don't need to make a ton of land drops. If you lowered your curve a bit, this seems like a good direction to go. I think you don't need two hero's downfall, perhaps none at all. With lingering souls and tarpit, as well as discard and counterspells, planeswalkers aren't like to be a problem, and something like slaughter pact, or soon more fatal pushes, would likely do you some good.
On that topic, not playing path to exile seems terrible.
I genuinely see you having a 0% win rate vs valakut decks. You have too few ways to realistically kill titan, hell, half your discard spells miss it, countersquall misses it, half of your kill spells miss it, etc.
Secondly, you have no real source of card draw, outside of tasigur. Esper charm, painful truths, or ancestral visions feel like they'd do a lot for you.
Westvale abbey also seems weaker than vault of the archangel or ghost quarter, as far as utility lands go.
Nihil spellbomb also feels out of place. Ravenous trap as additional dredge hate feels stronger.
3 elspeth, sun's champion also feels like overkill, especially with only 23 lands. Sorin lord of innistrad, or solemn visitor feel like better planeswalkers to consider. Even 4 mana gideon might be better than elspeth in this deck.
I'd point out that comparing snapcaster in grixis to snapcaster in esper isn't really ideal.
I do agree three in this list is ideal, but thats because you have neither lightning bolt or kolaghan's command, which both make snapcaster much more appealing.
Your sideboard guide also needs to be looked at.
Many of your numbers are no longer correct (you don't have 4 cryptics to cut vs bogles)
Or you include cards you don't have in your board (no threads of disloyalty vs death's shadow).
While the deck is certainly interesting, I would hold your horses on its power level.
You have yet to go 5-0 with it, and while that doesn't mean the deck is bad, you say it should have a 65% matchup at worst, which is honestly silly.
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
I think that you made some really good points.
My Matchup vs RG Valakut decks probably has me as a 40%-60% dog. I really liked your Ghost Quarter suggestion. Ghost quarter plus Surgical Extraction is lights out for Valakut if they aren't Through the Breaching Emrakul's.
I agree with you now that 4 Snapcaster Mages in Grixis Control is correct. You made a very good point about it there.
I did mention that the sb guide is terribly incomplete, I'll refine it tomorrow.
I have a different perspective on some of your card suggestions Cody_X.
With the heavy 3 mana curve in this deck, I feel 23 lands is optimal. The most important reason for 23 lands is it reduces mulligans imo.
We need Hero's Downfall for Nahiri or else the +2 uptick is insurmountable for lingering souls/tar pits to take out.
Slaughter Pact is good if we were playing a tempo game, which we are not.
Esper Charm and Painful Truths are too slow for us. I think Ancestral Vision is actually really bad and too slow. Corey lost many games with Grixis Control before the Turn 1 Ancestral Visions went off.
I think Nihil Spellbomb is strictly better than Ravenous Trap. We might cut the 1-of Spellbomb for a Rain of Tears to improve the RG Valakut matchup.
Elspeth is insane Cody. It board wipes Eldrazi or creates insurmountable value that wins.
Gideon and both Sorins are also way too frail.
I may be cocky (with the winrate %), but I'm a pretty determined guy and determination turns into obsession which turns into all that matters.
I recently posted asking about running Dark Confidant in an Esper Midrange list.
I'm am currently testing this deck and wanted some advice.
Note - the sideboard is utterly not closed to finished, I just threw some stuff in to see how it goes from there.
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Watery Grave
Creature (11)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Blessed Alliance
4x Fatal Push
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
2x Thought Scour
Sorcery (15)
2x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
3x Blessed Alliance
2x Celestial Purge
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
Some general comments on why I'm trying out this build.
I feel that running Dark Confidant in a shell with 7 three-drops in the 75 might be something that can work really well in a Monastery Mentor shell. Because of this I made some general modifications to fit it. First, Serum Visions works quite well with him, making the 4th draw step of the game quite impactful as well as mitigating damage. The upped level of cantrips are also for this purpose.
The two Thought Scour work well with both Mentor, as well as Lingering Souls and Surgical Extraction post board. I felt I had enough discard and spot removal in the form of both Path to Exile and Fatal Push to protect Mentor so I added the one Negate to preemptively deal with Tron and Scapeshift/Titan Breach, even if the deck is more tap-out style. Snapcaster Mage is just a value engine, either doubling spot removal, discard or cantrips for card advantage as well as working well with Thought Scour . The one Blessed Alliance is there mainly for life gain, Hexproof matchups and Infect/Deathshadow.
I might shave something to add the 23rd land if I have problems.
This is just some general thinking, I haven't had the time to properly test it yet.
Any suggestions or constructed criticism would be welcome!
This dark confidant+ monastery mentor t2 t3 combo might work. You can just go crazy in value town with this setup.
Some constructed Criticism:
You don't have lbolts or Kolaghan's Command recursion to support 4 Snapcaster Mage. I advise cutting 1.
6 t1 discard seems to be optimal. Jund and Abzan follow this rule. 3-3 split also seems optimal because of Elderpzi.
Vary up your black removal. Fatal Push is SICK. I'm cutting my 2 disfigure for 2 of them asap. But you can't overload on it. Dismember is your friend.
This deck can be like Grixis Delver per-say with mentor being your pyromancer. Souls might be out of place.
Lily maybe? Nah.
I think if this had a secondary win condition beyond Monastary Mentor it could punch a hole in a lot of Tier 1 decks.