Maybe budget was an issue, if not then... Auriok Champion seems better than Kor Firewalker. Red decks still can't kill it, and you can just rely on your 9 token generators to gain life. Day of Judgement should be replaced by Wrath of God.
Not sure what sideboard Torpor Orb is for, everyone brings in some artifact/enchantment hate for this deck after sideboard.
You can probably cut 1-2 discard and bring in Lilliana, of the Veil.
It's funny, Gerry mentioned this might be a testing shell for Stoneforge Mystic. I would agree, she can be slotted in pretty nicely.
I'm considering breaking into this archetype. Has a hybrid version of this deck and hatebears been tested? The Arbiter/Aven + Path/GQ combo seems suitable here
I'm considering breaking into this archetype. Has a hybrid version of this deck and hatebears been tested? The Arbiter/Aven + Path/GQ combo seems suitable here
That is a sexy brew! And exactly the sort of amalgamation I was thinking of. Pox is a nice touch too... But I wonder if there are more ways you can take advantage of the graveyard. Since there are so many global discard effects and all. Here is my brew:
I learned recently that Urborg and Arbiter don't play well together because the opponent's fetch lands are able to produce black still. And of course the idea is to lock them out of mana.
If you're interested in pursuing a Smallpox route, we'd love to have you join the discussion in another thread. The archetype has been around awhile, but there's a few of us trying to instill new life in to it.
I have a few thing to say about the deck. I'm not saying I'm right or anything, just some stuff I would be hesitant about if I were playing this deck.
First off, 4 Fetid Heath seems a bit risky as you also have four other lands that doesn't produce colored mana. Since you are running four tapped land as well, you only have eight sources of each color from which you can cast a turn one spell. I would definitly swap two Fetid Heath for two Isolated Chapel. I also think it might be a good idea to play at least one Temple of Silence since you're a bit low on one-drops. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could also be a great card cause it makes your Ghost Quarters tap for black. I would probably remove two Plains for those two card. Lastly, if you have any good G/B lands, it could be a good idea to replace one or two swamps whith that land to help you cast Kitchen Finks.
Regarding the spells I think it's a bit greedy to play 4 Liliana of the Veil and 4 Kitchen Finks whith that mana base, but the G/B land idea would of course help there. Beyond that I would be hesitant to play Abyssal Persecutor without any sac outlet. Maybe swap one Liliana of the Veil and one Kitchen Finks for two Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. That card seems awesome with Abyssal Persecutor. Finally I'd replace the Utter Ends for Dismember, Go for the Throat or even Smother. Utter End is too expensive in my opinion. It's gonna hurt flipping it to Dark Confidant and you might not even get to play it cause it can't be played until turn 4. Since you will be sacrificing your own lands you could easily be stuck on two or three land for a while. Also, you have to remember that Path to Exile is awful to play early if you don't have an Leonin Arbiter in play. It's much better later on. That's why I'd recommend playing the black 2-drop removal spells over Utter End.
Thanks for the advice. I don't play Urborg because it allows my opponent to use fetch lands to tap for black when they could be worthless with Arbiter or Mindcensor. I like Utter End because it can take out persecutor, and hit everything except for lands, but I have GQ for that.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Your mana curve is too for playing 4x Dark Confidant. I run a build similar to yours and I also don't use Urborg TOY for the same reason.
If one of your reasons for using Utter End is for your own Persecutor, I would say cut both. There are more efficient threats without the risk. And Utter End is just way too costly. If your meta is not particularly competitive, I could see running one copy just for the flexibility.
Check out my list on the previous page. We kind of have the same idea going. Land hate / tax effects alongside Dark Confidant and BW control. I call the deck Hate Crimes
I have very high hopes for Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet but I havn't had the chance to play him yet. Seems great though, except for that our main removal is an exile-spell. But with a bit of black removal in the deck aswell it could be a beast.
I haven't done any testing yet, but I replaced my 2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos with a pair and I'm taking them for a spin tonight.
I play 4x Tidehollow Sculler, 4x Path to Exile, and 2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, so I have 10 MD ways to exile cards, 8x of which are things I am typically doing in the early game. The interaction with Tidehollow excites me, and they also give me another (kind of) kill spell to feed Kalitas.
Went 3-0, playing against the mirror, RU Eldrazi (exact PT list) and Naya Burn.
I had a surprising amount of game against the Eldrazi deck, but it was still sweaty. I lost game one after a bit of a grind that went as you would expect if you watched any of the PT. For game 2&3 I boarded out the 4x Pack Rat (discarding cards doesn't seem good against them) and the 1x Darkblast to bring in 2x Fulminator Mage, 2x Zealous Persecution and 1x Go For the Throat.
The plan was to get as much out of his hand with discard as possible, and kill everything else until I could win with tokens. Inquisition did work stripping away his smaller Eldrazi like Eldrazi Skyspawner and Eldrazi Obligator while I took the bigger ones with Thoughtseize and Sculler... that's pretty straight forward. Wasteland Strangler came through big time in games 2 & 3 to process Reality Smasher sitting under my Scullers, taking down Skyspawners or Eldrazi Mimic in the process.
It actually doesn't feel terrible pathing a Reality Smasher and pitching a Lingering Souls when you know you can flash it back. It made me think that if I start seeing a lot more of this deck in my meta, playing some number of Big Game Hunter in my sideboard might be so janky it would work.
I also got to cast a huge Zealous Persecution against a board of Mimic, Mimic, Sky Spawner, Scion (*heavy breathing*) that let me then go Fulminator Mage into Fulminator Mage killing temples.
All in all, I had a certain amount of luck on my side, but I think this deck definitely has the tools to beat the Eldrazi lists. Obviously this is just one match and there is a lot more testing to do, but it gave me hope.
The rest of the night, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet was fantastic. Even if he drops and makes a trade, you kill something, gain 3 life, and get a zombie. I was never upset to draw him.
LOTV - you run none? Neither do I, just wondering your thoughts.
Simple answer: I'm too poor. I'd like to run 3x Lili, but I only own 1. This led me to prioritize a creature-heavy build with the Scullers and Pack Rats. Running the full 4 Scullers made me want to try out the Wasteland Stranglers. I still wish I had the Lilis, but I'm happy where I ended up, Even when they die immediately, Scullers are excellent for tempo.
Pack Rat - is it really a 4-of card? I haven't had much experience using so I might not be privy to its power level.
I'm questioning this. Sometimes it is, but a lot of times it gets boarded out. In games where you can stick a Bob and start getting extra cards, they can just take over. They also go very well with the Mutavaults, making for some great attacks. It's possible I want to go down to 2 or 3 Rats and MD more removal.
You run 7 mankind's - is that excessive? How necessary was Mutavault for you?
I don't think it's excessive. Mutavault is great, See above about Pack Rats. I've been playing a lot of Jund and having 7 Man-Lands really helped me grind them out in the late game. I wouldn't trade the Shambling Vents for anything (Unless they reprint Scrubland or Wasteland :P). They are late-game all stars in most matchups, and with them + Kalitas and Sorin, the deck has enough life gain preboard to steal game 1 from Burn. I don't play any Fetid Heath or Isolated Chapel because of them, though.
And how about burn? How did you Sideboard?
As I said above, game 1 against burn isn't so bad with all the lifelink in the MD. I board in 2x Finks and 3x Firewalker and 2x Zealous Persecution, taking out 4x Thoughtseize and 3x Rats. Now we have 12 cards that gain life, most of which block very well, and a spell that can make for some blowout blocks or eliminate x/1's.
How did your other match ups go? How much of a mirror was the mirror? I feel BW control is pretty fringe as it is.
I was surprised to play another BW deck in round 1. He was less hateful than my deck, and slower than I was, running Blade Splicers & Restoration Angels. We talked a bit after the match and he told me he was still building the deck and missing a few things he wished he had. For example, he was only running 2 Marsh Flats and was playing Wall of Omens because he didn't have Bobs. I think my deck was just better. I took game 1 relatively easily and then hated him out with a Blood Baron in game 2.
I took game 1 from Naya burn after stabilizing with Shambling Vents and then sealed it with Kalitas. Game two was really close and I hung on between 6 and 1 life for a few turns, whittling him down to 4 with Spirits, but he stonewalled my life gain a couple times with Atarka's Command and Skullcrack. Game 3 we went to time (he was playing a little slowly). I stabilized around 9 life with a Bob on board and killed him with Shambling Vent and Spirits. A Zealous Persecution off of Bob on my last turn gave me the win instead of having to draw.
I want to eventually replace the Bloodstained Mires and Arid Mesas with 4 Marsh Flats and an extra Swamp and Plains. However the deck ran well and I would like some advice on changes to make either to the main or sideboard.
I've got 3 Ayli sitting in a stack of "maybe for this deck" cards. In my build (see a few posts ago) I don't think I would play her over Tidehollow Sculler, but I might take 1-2 Pack Rat out and give her a try.
Gerry Thompson put up this article for a 5-0 BW Midrange deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32222_Daily-Digest-900-JP.html
I'll post the list here though:
2 Spellskite
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Spells (26)
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
1 Ultimate Price
3 Day of Judgment
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
4 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Marsh Flats
1 Mutavault
2 Shambling Vent
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Torpor Orb
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Sin Collector
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Sundering Growth
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Memoricide
Maybe budget was an issue, if not then...
Auriok Champion seems better than Kor Firewalker. Red decks still can't kill it, and you can just rely on your 9 token generators to gain life.
Day of Judgement should be replaced by Wrath of God.
Not sure what sideboard Torpor Orb is for, everyone brings in some artifact/enchantment hate for this deck after sideboard.
You can probably cut 1-2 discard and bring in Lilliana, of the Veil.
It's funny, Gerry mentioned this might be a testing shell for Stoneforge Mystic. I would agree, she can be slotted in pretty nicely.
Draft My Cube!
I've been trying this out:
2 Fetid Heath
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Pack Rat
Instant (10)
2 Disfigure
2 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Smallpox
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Needs some tuning but it's pretty fun to play.
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to exile
2 Dismember
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Fetid Heath
4 Swamp
2 Plains
I learned recently that Urborg and Arbiter don't play well together because the opponent's fetch lands are able to produce black still. And of course the idea is to lock them out of mana.
Draft My Cube!
If you're interested in pursuing a Smallpox route, we'd love to have you join the discussion in another thread. The archetype has been around awhile, but there's a few of us trying to instill new life in to it.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/221762-b-w-smallpox-control
List I'm using tonight:
2 thoughtseize
4 path to exile
4 Liliana of the veil
4 lingering souls
2 utter end
4 Leon arbiter
4 dark confidant
4 kitchen finks
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 abyssal persecutor
4 godless shrine
4 fetid heath
4 shambling vents
4 swamps
4 plains
1 blood Baron of vizkopa
2 Auriok champion
2 Leyline of sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 Fulmimator Mage
2 Stony Silence
2 zealous persecution
Any advice would be appreciated.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I have a few thing to say about the deck. I'm not saying I'm right or anything, just some stuff I would be hesitant about if I were playing this deck.
First off, 4 Fetid Heath seems a bit risky as you also have four other lands that doesn't produce colored mana. Since you are running four tapped land as well, you only have eight sources of each color from which you can cast a turn one spell. I would definitly swap two Fetid Heath for two Isolated Chapel. I also think it might be a good idea to play at least one Temple of Silence since you're a bit low on one-drops. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could also be a great card cause it makes your Ghost Quarters tap for black. I would probably remove two Plains for those two card. Lastly, if you have any good G/B lands, it could be a good idea to replace one or two swamps whith that land to help you cast Kitchen Finks.
Regarding the spells I think it's a bit greedy to play 4 Liliana of the Veil and 4 Kitchen Finks whith that mana base, but the G/B land idea would of course help there. Beyond that I would be hesitant to play Abyssal Persecutor without any sac outlet. Maybe swap one Liliana of the Veil and one Kitchen Finks for two Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. That card seems awesome with Abyssal Persecutor. Finally I'd replace the Utter Ends for Dismember, Go for the Throat or even Smother. Utter End is too expensive in my opinion. It's gonna hurt flipping it to Dark Confidant and you might not even get to play it cause it can't be played until turn 4. Since you will be sacrificing your own lands you could easily be stuck on two or three land for a while. Also, you have to remember that Path to Exile is awful to play early if you don't have an Leonin Arbiter in play. It's much better later on. That's why I'd recommend playing the black 2-drop removal spells over Utter End.
That's about it. Good luck!
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
If one of your reasons for using Utter End is for your own Persecutor, I would say cut both. There are more efficient threats without the risk. And Utter End is just way too costly. If your meta is not particularly competitive, I could see running one copy just for the flexibility.
Check out my list on the previous page. We kind of have the same idea going. Land hate / tax effects alongside Dark Confidant and BW control. I call the deck Hate Crimes
Draft My Cube!
I haven't done any testing yet, but I replaced my 2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos with a pair and I'm taking them for a spin tonight.
I play 4x Tidehollow Sculler, 4x Path to Exile, and 2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, so I have 10 MD ways to exile cards, 8x of which are things I am typically doing in the early game. The interaction with Tidehollow excites me, and they also give me another (kind of) kill spell to feed Kalitas.
I'll let you know how it works out.
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
3x Mutavault
2x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
4x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Verdant Catacombs
Planeswalker(1):
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creature(16):
4x Dark Confidant
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Pack Rat
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Wasteland Strangler
1x Darkblast
1x Doom Blade
4x Path to Exile
1x Slaughter Pact
Sorcery (12)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Go for the Throat
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Kor Firewalker
3x Stony Silence
2x Zealous Persecution
Went 3-0, playing against the mirror, RU Eldrazi (exact PT list) and Naya Burn.
I had a surprising amount of game against the Eldrazi deck, but it was still sweaty. I lost game one after a bit of a grind that went as you would expect if you watched any of the PT. For game 2&3 I boarded out the 4x Pack Rat (discarding cards doesn't seem good against them) and the 1x Darkblast to bring in 2x Fulminator Mage, 2x Zealous Persecution and 1x Go For the Throat.
The plan was to get as much out of his hand with discard as possible, and kill everything else until I could win with tokens. Inquisition did work stripping away his smaller Eldrazi like Eldrazi Skyspawner and Eldrazi Obligator while I took the bigger ones with Thoughtseize and Sculler... that's pretty straight forward. Wasteland Strangler came through big time in games 2 & 3 to process Reality Smasher sitting under my Scullers, taking down Skyspawners or Eldrazi Mimic in the process.
It actually doesn't feel terrible pathing a Reality Smasher and pitching a Lingering Souls when you know you can flash it back. It made me think that if I start seeing a lot more of this deck in my meta, playing some number of Big Game Hunter in my sideboard might be so janky it would work.
I also got to cast a huge Zealous Persecution against a board of Mimic, Mimic, Sky Spawner, Scion (*heavy breathing*) that let me then go Fulminator Mage into Fulminator Mage killing temples.
All in all, I had a certain amount of luck on my side, but I think this deck definitely has the tools to beat the Eldrazi lists. Obviously this is just one match and there is a lot more testing to do, but it gave me hope.
The rest of the night, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet was fantastic. Even if he drops and makes a trade, you kill something, gain 3 life, and get a zombie. I was never upset to draw him.
Draft My Cube!
Simple answer: I'm too poor. I'd like to run 3x Lili, but I only own 1. This led me to prioritize a creature-heavy build with the Scullers and Pack Rats. Running the full 4 Scullers made me want to try out the Wasteland Stranglers. I still wish I had the Lilis, but I'm happy where I ended up, Even when they die immediately, Scullers are excellent for tempo.
I'm questioning this. Sometimes it is, but a lot of times it gets boarded out. In games where you can stick a Bob and start getting extra cards, they can just take over. They also go very well with the Mutavaults, making for some great attacks. It's possible I want to go down to 2 or 3 Rats and MD more removal.
I don't think it's excessive. Mutavault is great, See above about Pack Rats. I've been playing a lot of Jund and having 7 Man-Lands really helped me grind them out in the late game. I wouldn't trade the Shambling Vents for anything (Unless they reprint Scrubland or Wasteland :P). They are late-game all stars in most matchups, and with them + Kalitas and Sorin, the deck has enough life gain preboard to steal game 1 from Burn. I don't play any Fetid Heath or Isolated Chapel because of them, though.
As I said above, game 1 against burn isn't so bad with all the lifelink in the MD. I board in 2x Finks and 3x Firewalker and 2x Zealous Persecution, taking out 4x Thoughtseize and 3x Rats. Now we have 12 cards that gain life, most of which block very well, and a spell that can make for some blowout blocks or eliminate x/1's.
I was surprised to play another BW deck in round 1. He was less hateful than my deck, and slower than I was, running Blade Splicers & Restoration Angels. We talked a bit after the match and he told me he was still building the deck and missing a few things he wished he had. For example, he was only running 2 Marsh Flats and was playing Wall of Omens because he didn't have Bobs. I think my deck was just better. I took game 1 relatively easily and then hated him out with a Blood Baron in game 2.
I took game 1 from Naya burn after stabilizing with Shambling Vents and then sealed it with Kalitas. Game two was really close and I hung on between 6 and 1 life for a few turns, whittling him down to 4 with Spirits, but he stonewalled my life gain a couple times with Atarka's Command and Skullcrack. Game 3 we went to time (he was playing a little slowly). I stabilized around 9 life with a Bob on board and killed him with Shambling Vent and Spirits. A Zealous Persecution off of Bob on my last turn gave me the win instead of having to draw.
2-0 vs Jund
2-1 vs Scapeshift
2-1 vs B/W Eldrazi
2 Arid Mesa
3 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Go for the Throat
4 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
I want to eventually replace the Bloodstained Mires and Arid Mesas with 4 Marsh Flats and an extra Swamp and Plains. However the deck ran well and I would like some advice on changes to make either to the main or sideboard.
She would definitely be good in a deck that ran Abyssal Persecutor.