3 wargear is probably too many. Tasigur is going to murder your face off from Dark Confidant, also since you can't activate his ability if you really wanted a delve card you should go with tombstalker or gurmag angler(I would say no to both) In general though your curve is too high to play dark confidant without being afraid of killing yourself.
I have considered running 1-2 delve creatures alongside Dark Confidant since the chance that you actually flip them is so low. I'd start with a single Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker, probably the latter. However neither is going to be castable early in the game so you might as well just run another 4 drop or a Grave Titan or something.
I think I'm going to play a few games with your deck. It is so unbelievable to me that Grafted Wargear and Abyssal Persecutor are good that I need to see it for myself or I'll never be convinced.
Awesome, good luck! Make sure you run the whole actual list or at least ensure you have tons of removal for Persecutor. You do have to build around him for optimal results.
I went through a few pages and put together a quick rough draft of the list I think I'd like to put together. Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Good stuff, hope you enjoy it! I agree with the others about some things. Because Wargear doesn't apply pressure by itself I think three might actually be one too many. Personally I would never run any delve cards in a deck with Dark Confidant because he already hurts plenty even with the whole-deck average CMC down at 1.28 in my version. (Don't forget we run Thoughtseize, fetches, and shocks too.) I agree that your curve is too high right now for Bob to work out.
You definitely do not have enough removal for Percy. You only have Path x4 and Wargear x3. I am running 12 ways to kill him, including Miren and Lili. I would definitely add a Miren (and/or a Liliana or two) and change Dismember to either Victim of Night or Go for the Throat. I have lost due to not being able to get rid of Persecutor before, and it sucks.
You have five colorless lands and no Urborgs. You'll want at least one, I think. Four tap lands (Vent) seems like an awful lot to me, as well. This deck is already not very fast.
Question: I am thinking about trying Bloodghast in the 2 CMC slot because of his free recursion and Lili/Pack Rat discard synergy. Has anybody else tried this? Bloodghast with haste while Wargear is on the battlefield would be very good, I think. I came into this discussion back at a time when the 2 CMC creature slot was being discussed with some vexation, and we still do not have a rock-solid go-to card other than Bob. The other options all come with some significant drawbacks. (So does Bloodghast, though). It would be nice to round out the options a bit with a new card from the next set.
I've actually played a lot of blood ghast decks in my life unfortunately I don't think this is the right strategy for him.
Historically bloodghast has been played in 3 types of decks.
1.) Aggressive decks b/r vamps ala scars zen standard
2.) Combo(ish) decks that can take advantage of multiple free creatures in a turn (aristocrat style decks)
3.) Sideboards of control decks for the mirror.
Dead guy is slower than #1 has less synergy that #2 and has too many threats to be considered #3.
I think the only thing holding him back is the inability to block. The combination with war gear is neat but remember to consider the average and worst case scenario. Sometimes you'll have aghast without a gear and all you accomplished was discarding a card that probably wouldn't help your plan anyway.
I played bloodghast a few years ago and the problem with it is that it get outclassed really fast. On turn 2 or 3 you have goyfs, swiftspears, tasigurs, merfolks, kird apes, just a lot of other stronger creatures. It is just gets blocked and dies without wargear.
Bloodghast is good against other midrange decks, and some control decks. If I was expecting to play against a lot of Abzhan and Jund, I would consider Bloodghast. In every match against an aggro deck, Bloodghast was a dead card since it can't block and doesn't make us faster. Same thing against even slow combo, it doesn't make us faster except in fringe scenarios, so they can just ignore it. Basically, it's only good against decks that want to kill creatures.
In terms of it getting blocked by stronger creatures, I'm on 4 Gatekeepers in addition to the 7 instant removal, so that might have been what avoided that problem for me. Abzhan decks generally had to bring in graveyard hate just for Bloodghast, because it screws up their removal plan so much.
Well I was sort of just spitballing, but I would say the verdict is in and Bloodghast is a no go, which is kinda what I was expecting. I can't see how he could ever work without Wargear, and that is just way too conditional. Thank you all for your advice.
Maybe I'll give Gatekeeper of Malakir a shot, but I am reluctant because I see that as a 3 CMC card and that slot is already full in my deck (eleven CMC=1, thirteen CMC=2, eight CMC=3, four CMC=4). Or maybe back to Sculler as a three-of if Grunt feels dead to me again in the next couple events.
Spellskite is looking like it might be worth a try. I have a couple on order already. However... I have noticed that many players are very serious about getting rid of Jötun Grunt right away when he hits the battlefield. Spellskite dies to more removal than Grunt, and it doesn't hate on graveyard strategies or put any pressure on. Unless it has Wargear on, and a 6 butt. I dunno.
Played with the Percy build yet, davemo88? Please let us know your thoughts.
Tonight I went 2-1-1 in a field of 18.
2-0 vs. UBG crapdeck: Another random 7th grader, trying things out, and he goes down quickly.
2-0 vs. Merfolk: My Burn playing buddy switched decks and is now playing Fish. Pack Rat absolutely dominated both games.
1-2 vs. Mono-G Stompy: His deck was fast. G1 went to him using Treetop Village. I misplayed into a Vines of Vastwood that I suspected he might have, which cost me the game. In G2 Damnation from the board cleared the way for Spirits to swing in for the win wearing Wargear. In G3 his Rancor was able to push through damage despite my second board sweep and another Spirits/Wargear. Rancor won this game for him. This was a good match but I made a couple of misplays into his pumps.
1-1-1 vs. Grixis Control: Grindy, controlly matches went over time. He had huge card advantage. G1 went to me, with lots of discard enabling Souls to swing in ftw. In G2 I mulled an otherwise good hand due to both Shambling Vents being my only lands. (Vent is officially out, it's too slow and too weak. I can see it being good with Elspeth, though.) His Night of Souls' Betrayal was absolutely devastating for me post-board. In G3 I sided in 2x Disenchant but didn't get to see them. He was playing the Origins Jace, and my Pithing Needle was key disruption post-board. (Note: This guy is a good player, and he was not a fan of letting Grunt hang around.) We grinded to a draw but if it weren't for his -1/-1 enchantment in G2 and G3 things would have been quite different. Wargear was outstanding again in this match, and the equip 0 is the key to its success.
Once again I'd like to praise the Percy/Bob/Souls/Wargear package. I totally love this synergy and it appears to be very powerful in many matchups. I guess I should add that it's necessary to build in lots of removal for Percy, of all different kinds.
I am also having success with Pack Rat as an early play after checking for removal with IoK or Thoughtseize. Especially in G1. But it feels like the whole game state changes at this point because it is an all-or-nothing tactic. Start discarding Lingering Souls or a dead second Urborg or Lili and climb on board the Pack Rat train. It's much harder to pull off without Mutavault in play though.
As before, I really want to thank the board for the indispensable advice and support. I am really liking playing a rogue deck that has totally unique win conditions and feels quite capable when I don't make mistakes. I'll be playing in an SCG States Modern tournament on Sunday and I'm excited to test at a higher level. Naturally you can expect to see a play report afterwards Cheers, dd
To be fair dga isn't exactly rogue. It won several modern states last year and has been putting up decent results since roughly the inception of modern.
One thing that is often overlooked though in this thread is that mana tithe has been in the most sucessful builds.It has been more or less ignored and I think I'll start giving it some more testing time. It plays exceptionally well off of the fact that we have path.
It's true it's not really a rogue deck but it is also not one that anybody knows about. Pack Rat, Persecutor, Grunt, and Wargear are all surprises every time.
Bah, I got my butt kicked today, 1-4 in a field of 50. (Dropped out before the final round.) This was my first event at a level above FNM and it showed. Lost to UW Control, RG Tron, and also Abzan twice, all 1-2. Beat Affinity 2-1. I felt outclassed in the UW Match but the others felt like they could have gone either way if I hadn't had to mulligan so much today. Made a couple of really bad misplays as well, which is a regular issue for me.
My 3 sideboard Kor Firewalkers were totally dead, I don't think there was a single Burn player at the event. Grafted Wargear was dead on board a couple of times with nobody to equip it to. It also put in good work attached to Spirit tokens though. Pithing Needle was very strong against manlands, Scooze, etc. Everybody is afraid of Jötun Grunt. He is still worth keeping, if I'm going to judge by how fast he gets removed. It really is such a graveyard-dependent format. (Today an opponent called a judge over to ask if--in his words--"this two mana 4/4 with no downside" was really legal in Modern.)
Happened to enter SCG States in Portland, Oregon today with this list. Ended up going 3-3 for 25th place. Won 2-0 vs RUG Prowess, UW Emeria Control, and UW Flash Control. Lost 0-2 vs Affinity, Elves and Merfolk. I definitely kept a super sketchy hand of 5 lands + Path game 1 vs Affinity. Then proceeded to draw 4 more lands. The Sword of Light and Shadow rocked in the grindy control match ups when Pack Rat got it for recurring cards to activate it.
I definitely didn't bring the right sideboard, as I was expecting/hoping for a lot more Grixis decks than there were. Should have ran 3 Wrath of God taking out the 3rd Go for the Throat and the Engineered Explosives. Ran the swords as I've been too lazy to order a couple copies of Grafted Wargear.
Overall I'm happy I brought this deck. Just wish I had brought a more thought out sideboard.
Doesn't do enough for our strategy. We excel on grinding out games not tempoing our opponents out of the game (by utilizing the extra mana granted by aether vial)
Going to make the switch from BW Tokens to DGA. This is a bit of a rough draft, I have most of this and can trade for the rest. Just looking for some critiques from those with experience in this archetype. I like the idea of Miren, but I'd like to see how far I have to go with this list. Maybe less mutavaults are needed. Some number of Bloodstained Mire instead of Windswept Heath. Is Fetid Heath even worth running? Etc etc.
I play dark blast and slaughter pact and wouldn't recommend cutting either. They are really easy to sideboard out and phenomenal in the correct matchups.(affinity for dark blast, twin for pact
I play dark blast and slaughter pact and wouldn't recommend cutting either. They are really easy to sideboard out and phenomenal in the correct matchups.(affinity for dark blast, twin for pact
I might use Slaughter Pact and Darkblast as sideboard cards but I would not run them maindeck alongside Percy myself. I agree that Fetid Heath is not good in a deck with so many colorless lands, and for sure we need to be able to fetch Swamps and not Plains so Heath is much worse than Mire.
Hervedgerse, that is the same SCG States tourney I got crushed in! We should get together and compare notes sometime if you live locally in PDX. PM me if you want to meet up.
All of the decks that run those cards still have targets and we play ways to get value out of "dead cards" via rat and lilly. I like to hedge vs twin(arguably the best deck in the format)
1) Maximize unfair two drops. Playing Inquisition or Thoughtseize on turn one followed by Bob or Rat probably leads to the highest win rate.
2) Win topdeck war. Inquisition, Thoughtseize, and Liliana of the Veil are great at getting the game into this state. Pack Rat shines here again as does Lingering Souls. However: it's the manabase that pushes this strategy over the edge. I'm playing the full 4 Shambling Vent 4 Mutavault, as well as 2 Ghost Quarter. The longer the game goes, the more it's like playing 14 lands instead of 24. Fetchlands help too. That's a huge advantage in a topdeck war.
Between all the one drops, Rat, Souls, the deck is great at spending its mana efficiently throughtout the game. The manlands make it even more efficient.
That's why cards like Grafted Wargear and Abyssal Persecutor don't fit into my plan. They are relatively expensive. Both need help to be good and can be downright disastrous. Instead I'm on Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which is kind of like Wargear and Persecutor rolled into one. It beefs up your dudes and is a threat itself. It also lets Shambling Vent do a pretty good Baneslayer Angel impression. I want all my cards to be standalone great or cheap to cast, and preferably both. Wargear and Persecutor are neither.
I'm trying a singleton Tidehollow Sculler over the 4th Thoughtseize but the more I play with Sculler the more I wish it was the last Thoughtseize. I thought the addition of Elspeth might make the body more relevant but so far I've been disappointed.
Also trying singleton Hangarback Walker, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Kitchen Finks. Hangarback: So far meh. Nice and flexible but so slow. Finks has been great and I wouldn't mind another somewhere in the 75. Surprisingly good against Grixis Control. Gideon is powerful and versatile. That being said I'm not sure I want more than two four-drops and I think the second Elspeth is probably better than the first Gideon. Shrug.
Good stuff, hope you enjoy it! I agree with the others about some things. Because Wargear doesn't apply pressure by itself I think three might actually be one too many. Personally I would never run any delve cards in a deck with Dark Confidant because he already hurts plenty even with the whole-deck average CMC down at 1.28 in my version. (Don't forget we run Thoughtseize, fetches, and shocks too.) I agree that your curve is too high right now for Bob to work out.
You definitely do not have enough removal for Percy. You only have Path x4 and Wargear x3. I am running 12 ways to kill him, including Miren and Lili. I would definitely add a Miren (and/or a Liliana or two) and change Dismember to either Victim of Night or Go for the Throat. I have lost due to not being able to get rid of Persecutor before, and it sucks.
You have five colorless lands and no Urborgs. You'll want at least one, I think. Four tap lands (Vent) seems like an awful lot to me, as well. This deck is already not very fast.
Question: I am thinking about trying Bloodghast in the 2 CMC slot because of his free recursion and Lili/Pack Rat discard synergy. Has anybody else tried this? Bloodghast with haste while Wargear is on the battlefield would be very good, I think. I came into this discussion back at a time when the 2 CMC creature slot was being discussed with some vexation, and we still do not have a rock-solid go-to card other than Bob. The other options all come with some significant drawbacks. (So does Bloodghast, though). It would be nice to round out the options a bit with a new card from the next set.
Historically bloodghast has been played in 3 types of decks.
1.) Aggressive decks b/r vamps ala scars zen standard
2.) Combo(ish) decks that can take advantage of multiple free creatures in a turn (aristocrat style decks)
3.) Sideboards of control decks for the mirror.
Dead guy is slower than #1 has less synergy that #2 and has too many threats to be considered #3.
I think the only thing holding him back is the inability to block. The combination with war gear is neat but remember to consider the average and worst case scenario. Sometimes you'll have aghast without a gear and all you accomplished was discarding a card that probably wouldn't help your plan anyway.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
In terms of it getting blocked by stronger creatures, I'm on 4 Gatekeepers in addition to the 7 instant removal, so that might have been what avoided that problem for me. Abzhan decks generally had to bring in graveyard hate just for Bloodghast, because it screws up their removal plan so much.
Maybe I'll give Gatekeeper of Malakir a shot, but I am reluctant because I see that as a 3 CMC card and that slot is already full in my deck (eleven CMC=1, thirteen CMC=2, eight CMC=3, four CMC=4). Or maybe back to Sculler as a three-of if Grunt feels dead to me again in the next couple events.
Played with the Percy build yet, davemo88? Please let us know your thoughts.
Tonight I went 2-1-1 in a field of 18.
2-0 vs. UBG crapdeck: Another random 7th grader, trying things out, and he goes down quickly.
2-0 vs. Merfolk: My Burn playing buddy switched decks and is now playing Fish. Pack Rat absolutely dominated both games.
1-2 vs. Mono-G Stompy: His deck was fast. G1 went to him using Treetop Village. I misplayed into a Vines of Vastwood that I suspected he might have, which cost me the game. In G2 Damnation from the board cleared the way for Spirits to swing in for the win wearing Wargear. In G3 his Rancor was able to push through damage despite my second board sweep and another Spirits/Wargear. Rancor won this game for him. This was a good match but I made a couple of misplays into his pumps.
1-1-1 vs. Grixis Control: Grindy, controlly matches went over time. He had huge card advantage. G1 went to me, with lots of discard enabling Souls to swing in ftw. In G2 I mulled an otherwise good hand due to both Shambling Vents being my only lands. (Vent is officially out, it's too slow and too weak. I can see it being good with Elspeth, though.) His Night of Souls' Betrayal was absolutely devastating for me post-board. In G3 I sided in 2x Disenchant but didn't get to see them. He was playing the Origins Jace, and my Pithing Needle was key disruption post-board. (Note: This guy is a good player, and he was not a fan of letting Grunt hang around.) We grinded to a draw but if it weren't for his -1/-1 enchantment in G2 and G3 things would have been quite different. Wargear was outstanding again in this match, and the equip 0 is the key to its success.
Once again I'd like to praise the Percy/Bob/Souls/Wargear package. I totally love this synergy and it appears to be very powerful in many matchups. I guess I should add that it's necessary to build in lots of removal for Percy, of all different kinds.
I am also having success with Pack Rat as an early play after checking for removal with IoK or Thoughtseize. Especially in G1. But it feels like the whole game state changes at this point because it is an all-or-nothing tactic. Start discarding Lingering Souls or a dead second Urborg or Lili and climb on board the Pack Rat train. It's much harder to pull off without Mutavault in play though.
As before, I really want to thank the board for the indispensable advice and support. I am really liking playing a rogue deck that has totally unique win conditions and feels quite capable when I don't make mistakes. I'll be playing in an SCG States Modern tournament on Sunday and I'm excited to test at a higher level. Naturally you can expect to see a play report afterwards Cheers, dd
One thing that is often overlooked though in this thread is that mana tithe has been in the most sucessful builds.It has been more or less ignored and I think I'll start giving it some more testing time. It plays exceptionally well off of the fact that we have path.
Bah, I got my butt kicked today, 1-4 in a field of 50. (Dropped out before the final round.) This was my first event at a level above FNM and it showed. Lost to UW Control, RG Tron, and also Abzan twice, all 1-2. Beat Affinity 2-1. I felt outclassed in the UW Match but the others felt like they could have gone either way if I hadn't had to mulligan so much today. Made a couple of really bad misplays as well, which is a regular issue for me.
My list:
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
3x Mutavault
2x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
Creature (13)
3x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Dark Confidant
2x Jotun Grunt
3x Pack Rat
1x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Celestial Purge
1x Go for the Throat
4x Path to Exile
1x Victim of Night
Planeswalker (3)
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorcery (11)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
Artifact (2)
2x Grafted Wargear
2x Damnation
1x Disenchant
3x Fulminator Mage
3x Kor Firewalker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stony Silence
My 3 sideboard Kor Firewalkers were totally dead, I don't think there was a single Burn player at the event. Grafted Wargear was dead on board a couple of times with nobody to equip it to. It also put in good work attached to Spirit tokens though. Pithing Needle was very strong against manlands, Scooze, etc. Everybody is afraid of Jötun Grunt. He is still worth keeping, if I'm going to judge by how fast he gets removed. It really is such a graveyard-dependent format. (Today an opponent called a judge over to ask if--in his words--"this two mana 4/4 with no downside" was really legal in Modern.)
I like Mana Tithe a lot, but what to cut?
3 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Godless Shrine
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mutavault
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Vault of the Archangel
//Spells
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Path to Exile
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Go for the Throat
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
3 Celestial Purge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Spellskite
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Auriok Champion
1 Wrath of God
1 Go for the Throat
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Happened to enter SCG States in Portland, Oregon today with this list. Ended up going 3-3 for 25th place. Won 2-0 vs RUG Prowess, UW Emeria Control, and UW Flash Control. Lost 0-2 vs Affinity, Elves and Merfolk. I definitely kept a super sketchy hand of 5 lands + Path game 1 vs Affinity. Then proceeded to draw 4 more lands. The Sword of Light and Shadow rocked in the grindy control match ups when Pack Rat got it for recurring cards to activate it.
I definitely didn't bring the right sideboard, as I was expecting/hoping for a lot more Grixis decks than there were. Should have ran 3 Wrath of God taking out the 3rd Go for the Throat and the Engineered Explosives. Ran the swords as I've been too lazy to order a couple copies of Grafted Wargear.
Overall I'm happy I brought this deck. Just wish I had brought a more thought out sideboard.
BWDeadguy AleBW
BWUDeadgeist AleBWU
GRTronGR
GWBAbzan Angel Chord of HateGWB
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Mutavault
2 Fetid Heath
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Abyssal Persecutor
Spells:
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Darkblast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Grafted Wargear
Going to make the switch from BW Tokens to DGA. This is a bit of a rough draft, I have most of this and can trade for the rest. Just looking for some critiques from those with experience in this archetype. I like the idea of Miren, but I'd like to see how far I have to go with this list. Maybe less mutavaults are needed. Some number of Bloodstained Mire instead of Windswept Heath. Is Fetid Heath even worth running? Etc etc.
Slaughter Pact is really sketchy in a meta of Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang.
Hervedgerse, that is the same SCG States tourney I got crushed in! We should get together and compare notes sometime if you live locally in PDX. PM me if you want to meet up.
1) Maximize unfair two drops. Playing Inquisition or Thoughtseize on turn one followed by Bob or Rat probably leads to the highest win rate.
2) Win topdeck war. Inquisition, Thoughtseize, and Liliana of the Veil are great at getting the game into this state. Pack Rat shines here again as does Lingering Souls. However: it's the manabase that pushes this strategy over the edge. I'm playing the full 4 Shambling Vent 4 Mutavault, as well as 2 Ghost Quarter. The longer the game goes, the more it's like playing 14 lands instead of 24. Fetchlands help too. That's a huge advantage in a topdeck war.
Between all the one drops, Rat, Souls, the deck is great at spending its mana efficiently throughtout the game. The manlands make it even more efficient.
That's why cards like Grafted Wargear and Abyssal Persecutor don't fit into my plan. They are relatively expensive. Both need help to be good and can be downright disastrous. Instead I'm on Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which is kind of like Wargear and Persecutor rolled into one. It beefs up your dudes and is a threat itself. It also lets Shambling Vent do a pretty good Baneslayer Angel impression. I want all my cards to be standalone great or cheap to cast, and preferably both. Wargear and Persecutor are neither.
I'm trying a singleton Tidehollow Sculler over the 4th Thoughtseize but the more I play with Sculler the more I wish it was the last Thoughtseize. I thought the addition of Elspeth might make the body more relevant but so far I've been disappointed.
Also trying singleton Hangarback Walker, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Kitchen Finks. Hangarback: So far meh. Nice and flexible but so slow. Finks has been great and I wouldn't mind another somewhere in the 75. Surprisingly good against Grixis Control. Gideon is powerful and versatile. That being said I'm not sure I want more than two four-drops and I think the second Elspeth is probably better than the first Gideon. Shrug.