This might seem a bit odd but I tried cutting all my copies of lingering souls and replaced them with bitterblossom. The idea behind this switch was to lower the curve and allow for more cheaper and more efficient interaction. I still think that lingering souls is a very powerful card and that it had good synergy with Liliana of the veil but as it currently stands I think it might be to slow for modern.
I have only played this iteration of the deck one time at my local lgs but I was not very impressed by the main deck collective brutalities and I would have liked one or two kambal, consul of allocation in the 75 along with maybe one or two vampire hexmage or hero's downfall to deal with non creature decks that heavily rely on planeswalkers to win the game for them. I am also considering swapping one of my wath effects for a cataclysmic gearhulk as it is a bit more versatile.
Have anyone tried funeral charm in DGA? I could see runing one or two over a fatal push and an inquisition of kozilek it kills most early creatures that are relevant, the instant speed discard is also quite good when we are hellbent and it is a good card vs control when removal are dead cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Even the most brilliant lights eventually flicker and die.
I have been happy with the change. It comes down 1 turn earlier and it provides an endless stream of blockers that doesn't require any additional mana investment. Prior to the swap my deck was quite stacked in the 3-cmc spot with 4 lotv, 2 ltlh, 4 lingering souls, 1 sword, 1 banishing light. My current iteration is a lot more streamlined and is packed with interaction in the 1 and 2 cmc slots. With the current state of modern that leaves you dead on turn 3 or 4, i just don't think you can afford to take turn 3 off for two 1/1 fliers.
I just started a new job so have been a bit busy these last few weeks so I and haven't been able fine tune the deck and my SB is still a bit of a mess. One of the problems with a deck like this is that you need certain cards vs aggro that are dead vs combo and vice versa and this is something that you have to take in to account when you build your SB.
With all the recent changes in the meta game and me having fun with other decks such as UB-Fae, UB-Thing, GB-Vechicles (bob tribal) and various BUG builds, I haven't had time to update my SB, I have some idea of changes that I would like to make and I will try to post a new list with updated SB later this week. I'd love to share if you have any ideas on good cards or strategies vs certain decks. I have been looking at the BG-Rock thread as this one is not very active but there are some major differences between how BW and BG operate imo and we also have access to white (the best SB color in modern).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Even the most brilliant lights eventually flicker and die.
Seems that we're going to have another expansion where there's nothing for BW Midrange. Anyways, seems that the other day there was a list doing 5-0 on MTGO, though it was a more control focused version of the deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-orzhov-kaya#paper
I have also been experimenting with Mentor of the Meek with somehow decent results. It is indeed somehow slow, but combined with Bitterblossom and LS it becomes a quite decent engine for card advantage. This is my most recent list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1705041#paper
I still have trouble agains Tron and combo, though the UW Control, BG and Phoenix MU are quite decent. We still need a good way to grow big and apply pressure beyond the tokens, and of course a removal for permanents that can somehow compete with Assassins Trophy. Maybe in 5 years when we revisit Ravnica.
Ben Stark ran a sort of B/W Planeswalker control deck that I'd only consider Deadguy Ale because of the Confidants, Lingering Souls, and discard. It definitely seems intriguing. I like the full 4 Field of Ruin, plus the Lilianas - definitely should be enough to pressure even Tron. Not sure why there are only 6 Sideboard cards though!
I think it is because he hasn't posted the SB yet, or at least that's what he said on Twitter. It's quite an interesting take on the deck, though I'm not that convinced about maindecking 2 LtLH with only 4 creatures. Gideon over Sorin is another surprising choice since the lifegain seems quite important with 4 Bobs, 4 Seizes and 14 >=3cmc cards.
I think it is because he hasn't posted the SB yet, or at least that's what he said on Twitter. It's quite an interesting take on the deck, though I'm not that convinced about maindecking 2 LtLH with only 4 creatures. Gideon over Sorin is another surprising choice since the lifegain seems quite important with 4 Bobs, 4 Seizes and 14 >=3cmc cards.
The Liliana is more of just an alternate wincon in this deck. It definitely seems to be a meta call - the Mythic Championship didn't have a lot of burn, for example. I would agree about lack of lifegain. It seems like he's hedging really hard for the 4 Shambling Vent and the Vault of the Archangel. Kaya and Collective Brutality also offer some incidental lifegain. I'm going to test out the build today vs some friends once I see the full sideboard.
The sideboard is basically a huge "up yours" to Tron and graveyard decks, which are the 2 decks we've traditionally struggled with. I find it funny that in previous months we had debated FoR vs Fulminator, only to have him just jam playsets of both. I'm going to give it a run with no changes tomorrow and see how I like it!
It's actually really interesting that he isn't running Damnations or anything to deal with permanents. I really like the Tocatly Honor Guard tech, though.
This is the SB I'm running right now, 2 FM and 2 DS that may turn into 4 FM (DS has actually been really good against Phoenix and Storm however). Now I only need to find room for the Honor Guards.
Well, I ran it last night, and I will agree with you, the deck sorely needs a board wipe or ensnaring bridge type card to deal with go-wide decks. And it also needs a way to deal with other permanents. Maybe Cleansing Nova? Might be too slow though.
Also, I still got smashed by Tron but them's the breaks. Ben's maindeck is so bad against Tron G1 that you might as well just concede upon seeing a Urza land and go to sideboarding. Probably didn't help that I really only drew removal and lands, but still, I can't imagine it being too much better.
In my own meta I didn't ever really bring in Tocatli Honor Guard so I would probably remove them for a sweeper and engineered explosives.
Fulminator Mage, Damping Sphere, Extirpate/Surgical/Lost Legacy and Despark are all good against Tron. I'm actually intriged about Despark, I'm not really sure if it's any good but there seems to be many more cmc4+ cards that I thought.
EE and Damnation are also really good. I've also tried Settle the Wreckage but it seems too predictable on T4 when we need it. Bontu's is another decent option. Cleasing Nova seems too slow, though.
I actually really like Kambal, but I can't find a spot on my deck for the Honor Guards, so I might just cut them out if I start facing less combo and burn. Or I might cut the Fulminators all together since I already have many things to dream about beating Tron.
Tbh I don't play the deck much anymore, but from testing Ben's list out, I came to a sort of midway point with Ben's list and my previous lists. If you're facing combo and Burn, yeah, you want at least 1 Kambal maindeck.
So to me it looks like there isn't a single card in modern horizons that BW midrange wants. Have I missed something or is this just another set with no new tools for us in it?
Kaya's Guile is always a 2 for 1, and having MD graveyard hate + lifegain seems powerful enough in today's meta.
Silent Clearing also patches one of BW main weaknesses, the unability to dig for answers. I'll be trying 4 but I think it'll be reduced to 2 in the end.
Nether Spirit looks interesting in creatureless builds.
Ransack the Lab seems decent for digging, though I'm not sure if it'll make the cut.
Kaya's guile seems pretty weak even with being very flexible, silent clearing might be good if BW lent itself to more aggressive strategies, nether spirit is fine I guess if you're running a creatureless deck for some reason, ransack would have been great if it were only 1 mana, but at 2 mana it's probably just not good enough, force of despair just doesn't strike me as playable since it only destroys creatures played in the same turn and shatter assumptions is a turn too slow to be good against tron while being perfectly useless against affinity.
They made plenty of cards that were almost good for sure, but they stopped short of making them good enough to actually see anything but casual play in the format they were designed for.
Hey guys! I'm a recent Mardu Pyro player who has been directed here by jwf239 from their forum. I don't know if I'm quite ready to give up on having red in my build and wanted to see if y'all had any thoughts on these two lists?
Here is a more traditional take, that appears to be similar to the list Khanagate posted earlier:
For the BW list, could probably do 3 path 3 push split instead, I doubt we'll face many creatures that don't stay dead for the time being. Would recommend 1-2 Stony Silence in the sideboard as well, 3 Kambal may be too much.
For the Mardu list, I think some number of collective brutalities in the main to bin souls and helix in addition to Spyro doing that job might be worth it. Could chuck either of the swords to the side to swap in or add as needed. Might also need up the land count by 1 or so to make sure you can hit 3 lands without looting around. I think Mardu pyro / midrange based decks will likely be adapting a SFM package from now on, giving it a potential clock it didn't have previously. The other direction might be a more aggro-ish unearth version with skelementals.
I think these are pretty good steps however. Curious to see how the meta shapes out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
2 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
4 shambling vent
2 godless shrine
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 plains
4 swamp
3 ghost quarter
Creatures: 7
4 dark confidant
1 kalitas, traitor of ghet
2 baneslayer angel
4 bitterblossom
1 banishing light
Planeswalkers: 5
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Liliana, the last hope
Spells: 20
4 fatal push
4 path to exile
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 collective brutality
2 nihil spellbomb
1 sword of light and shadow
3 stony silence
3 rest in peace
2 celestial Purge
1 blessed alliance
1 wrath of god
3 damping sphere
1 liliana of the veil
1 languish
I have only played this iteration of the deck one time at my local lgs but I was not very impressed by the main deck collective brutalities and I would have liked one or two kambal, consul of allocation in the 75 along with maybe one or two vampire hexmage or hero's downfall to deal with non creature decks that heavily rely on planeswalkers to win the game for them. I am also considering swapping one of my wath effects for a cataclysmic gearhulk as it is a bit more versatile.
Have anyone tried funeral charm in DGA? I could see runing one or two over a fatal push and an inquisition of kozilek it kills most early creatures that are relevant, the instant speed discard is also quite good when we are hellbent and it is a good card vs control when removal are dead cards.
How have the bitterblossom worked out for you?
I have been considering dropping 1x lingering souls and adding in 2x bitterblossoms having a 3/2 split on lingering/BB
I just started a new job so have been a bit busy these last few weeks so I and haven't been able fine tune the deck and my SB is still a bit of a mess. One of the problems with a deck like this is that you need certain cards vs aggro that are dead vs combo and vice versa and this is something that you have to take in to account when you build your SB.
With all the recent changes in the meta game and me having fun with other decks such as UB-Fae, UB-Thing, GB-Vechicles (bob tribal) and various BUG builds, I haven't had time to update my SB, I have some idea of changes that I would like to make and I will try to post a new list with updated SB later this week. I'd love to share if you have any ideas on good cards or strategies vs certain decks. I have been looking at the BG-Rock thread as this one is not very active but there are some major differences between how BW and BG operate imo and we also have access to white (the best SB color in modern).
I have also been experimenting with Mentor of the Meek with somehow decent results. It is indeed somehow slow, but combined with Bitterblossom and LS it becomes a quite decent engine for card advantage. This is my most recent list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1705041#paper
I still have trouble agains Tron and combo, though the UW Control, BG and Phoenix MU are quite decent. We still need a good way to grow big and apply pressure beyond the tokens, and of course a removal for permanents that can somehow compete with Assassins Trophy. Maybe in 5 years when we revisit Ravnica.
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Dark Confidant
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
4 Path to Exile
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
60 Cards
1 Celestial Purge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Stony Silence
1 Leyline of the Void
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/2019MC2/mythic-championship-ii-london-decklists-s
The Liliana is more of just an alternate wincon in this deck. It definitely seems to be a meta call - the Mythic Championship didn't have a lot of burn, for example. I would agree about lack of lifegain. It seems like he's hedging really hard for the 4 Shambling Vent and the Vault of the Archangel. Kaya and Collective Brutality also offer some incidental lifegain. I'm going to test out the build today vs some friends once I see the full sideboard.
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline Of The Void
1 Celestial Purge
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
The sideboard is basically a huge "up yours" to Tron and graveyard decks, which are the 2 decks we've traditionally struggled with. I find it funny that in previous months we had debated FoR vs Fulminator, only to have him just jam playsets of both. I'm going to give it a run with no changes tomorrow and see how I like it!
2 Extirpate
2 Damping Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Damnation
This is the SB I'm running right now, 2 FM and 2 DS that may turn into 4 FM (DS has actually been really good against Phoenix and Storm however). Now I only need to find room for the Honor Guards.
Also, I still got smashed by Tron but them's the breaks. Ben's maindeck is so bad against Tron G1 that you might as well just concede upon seeing a Urza land and go to sideboarding. Probably didn't help that I really only drew removal and lands, but still, I can't imagine it being too much better.
In my own meta I didn't ever really bring in Tocatli Honor Guard so I would probably remove them for a sweeper and engineered explosives.
EE and Damnation are also really good. I've also tried Settle the Wreckage but it seems too predictable on T4 when we need it. Bontu's is another decent option. Cleasing Nova seems too slow, though.
I actually really like Kambal, but I can't find a spot on my deck for the Honor Guards, so I might just cut them out if I start facing less combo and burn. Or I might cut the Fulminators all together since I already have many things to dream about beating Tron.
@Muad'dib what's your current list?
// 4 Creature
4 Dark Confidant
// 8 Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
// 24 Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// 10 Planeswalker
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
// 3 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
// 5 Creature
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
// 4 Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
2 Leyline of the Void
// 2 Instant
2 Surgical Extraction
// 1 Sorcery
1 Damnation
This is the current list I'm working on:
1 Nether Spirit
Spells
4 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
4 Night's Whisper
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kaya's Guile
Enchantments
2 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Lands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
4 Shambling Vent
4 Field of Ruin
4 Silent Clearing
1 Blast Zone
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Damping Sphere
2 Force of Despair
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Despark
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
They made plenty of cards that were almost good for sure, but they stopped short of making them good enough to actually see anything but casual play in the format they were designed for.
BWModern Black/White Control
WGBOGGLES
Draft My Innistrad Cube!
Here is a more traditional take, that appears to be similar to the list Khanagate posted earlier:
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
SPELLS:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
WALKERS:
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
LANDS:
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Godless Shrine
3 Silent Clearing
1 Shambling Vent
3 Field of Ruin
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Plague Engineer
2 Collective Brutality
2 Disenchant
And here is my Mardu colored list I came up with yesterday after hearing the news:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Seasoned Pyromancer
4 Young Pyromancer
SPELLS:
4 Lingering Souls
3 Smiting Helix
2 Dreadbore
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
EQUIP:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sunbaked Canyon
1 Silent Clearing
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Wear // Tear
1 Molten Rain
2 Pillage
2 Plague Engineer
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Collective Brutality
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
For the Mardu list, I think some number of collective brutalities in the main to bin souls and helix in addition to Spyro doing that job might be worth it. Could chuck either of the swords to the side to swap in or add as needed. Might also need up the land count by 1 or so to make sure you can hit 3 lands without looting around. I think Mardu pyro / midrange based decks will likely be adapting a SFM package from now on, giving it a potential clock it didn't have previously. The other direction might be a more aggro-ish unearth version with skelementals.
I think these are pretty good steps however. Curious to see how the meta shapes out.