@PapaMoons8 You almost certainly are going to want more than 22 lands in this deck. My MB doesn't even play 4 drops and it still wants 24 lands, thanks to mutavault and shambling vent activations (and the fact that they get killed by creature removal). We don't have cantrips the way blue decks do so we have to play a fair number of lands
My list (basically davemo's list with -1 elspeth +1 liliana last hope and different sideboard):
--
I went 3-1 tonight! List was what I posted but with a worse sideboard b/c I only own 2 brutalities right now.
Match 1: Boros Prison
Game 1 I had no idea what he was on and got killed by a Hazoret + Chandra + my own bob.
Game 2 he had a t1 blood moon, t3 ensnaring bridge and easily took it. 0-1
Match 2: Grixis Death's Shadow
G1 I got 2 scullers out early to keep him off of threats and he didn't draw removal. Sculler + manland beats took him out, with removal/discard to keep the way open.
G2 I kept a ridiculous hand of 3 lands, 3 path, 1 push. Drew a sculler in time for t2 and used it to keep him off of his stubborn denial, making it impossible for him to put a threat down safely. By the time he found removal for sculler I drew a thoughtseize and took it out of his hand, and eventually manlands + copter got there. 1-1
Match 3: Grixis Death's Shadow
G1 I don't remember much of. I just remember the final turn with him on 1 life and a 12/12 shadow + snap and me with a copter swinging for lethal in the air. He had a thought scour and mana up to try and find a removal spell to then counter punch me for massive lethal on his turn, but thankfully he didn't find it.
G2 Don't remember much of this one either, but I think lingering souls tokens were important. 2-1
Match 4: Burn
G1 I have thoughtseizes, bobs, and we both join in on the fun of killing me.
G2 Lingering Souls is king. I get 2 and end up at the end with 8 tokens out.
G3 Again lingering souls is stellar. That plus a collective brutality, sculler, and discard help me close this game out. 3-1
I had a lot of fun! I recently have been on an Abzan/Jund kick with the thought process of: it's like this deck but with goyf providing a proper clock. I did terribly with the bgx midrange decks though, and coming back to this felt so refreshing. I love knowing that I'm basically never going to stumble on mana colors, and getting to play 4 mutavaults feels silly. One game I had 3 out at once. Copter was great all night as well, looting turn after turn after turn. And I never had trouble crewing it thanks to mutavault.
Changes I like: +1 or 2 Damnation, -Forgetender in sideboard.
Sculler overperformed all night, as did copter and mutavault. Do not underestimate these cards!
Have you ever thought of making room for ghost quarter to shore up the scapeshift/tron matchups? I think it would have to come at the cost of mutavault though.
I used to play a couple Ghost Quarters but I don't think it's worth it. GQ doesn't do much against Valakut. GQ + Surgical on Valakut is good but unlikely to occur. GQ is fine against Tron but it's worse against Eldrazi Tron since they don't need as much mana. I think Thoughtseize, Sculler, and Copter are our best cards in those matchups.
I think I have to agree with you on that. It also seems very very wrong to even think of cutting mutavault after last night.
Maybe I'll take a page out of bgx's book and play around with fulminator mage in the board. Seems decent.
E: I'll clarify that the reason I'm thinking about this is b/c these two decks (tron+shift) make up about 20% of the metagame right now, and they're classic bad matchups for midrange decks as it is. So It would be nice to have some concession for them in our 75
Instant 9
Path to Exile x4
Fatal Push x3
Dark Blast x1
Zealous Persecution x1
Planes Walkers 4
Liliana of the Veil x3
Liliana last Hope x1
SideBoard
Kitchen Finks x3
Collective Brutality x2
Rest in Peace x2
Shadow of Doubt x2
Disenchant x2
Blood Baron of Vizkopa x1
Graftdigger's cage x1
Wrath of God (or Damnation) x1
Still not happy with the actually ins and outs of side broad but i love having the 4 creatures against both control and aggressive decks, Doubts because titan shift is more prepared for cage. wrath because i don't like leaving home without it. What do yaw think? Still testing on making the deck feel right for me, and feel good to play. Was also wondering what people think about the Kitesail freebooter as a 5-9 of tide hollow? Its a 1/2 and wont take creatures which could be bad but its only 1 black so its easier to cast if the deck black heavy. Just wondering what more experienced players think.
Kitesail Freebooter is so close to being good but it's terrible compared to Sculler. Not taking creatures is probably a deal breaker by itself but they can also just kill it in response to its trigger. It has slightly different rules text than Sculler that makes it so no card is exiled if Freebooter dies before its ability resolves. So it can't take creatures and it's much worse against removal. A 1/2 flying Sculler for 1B would have been insane though.
Ye the wording is the same difference between O-ring and Banishing light, i was just curious, i was testing sin collector for a while in a heavier creature list to abuse lili last hope more. and 3 mana was lot so wanted to see what people thought about new kid on the block.
In general I love the idea of Freebooter but so close yet so far. One reason I like Sculler so much is it really helps out the curve. It's a fine 2 drop by itself and a great pseudo-3 drop as a follow up to Copter. The curve of t2 Copter t3 Sculler + 1 drop is extremely good. 4 Bob 4 Copter 4 Sculler + 4 Souls flashback make t4 double 2 drop quite doable as well.
Ive been having great success with the deck locally at my store and have gone 3-1 or 3-0-1 for about the last 3 months since ive built it except for one time. Ive been playing against a lot of real decks to. Im changing my build a little but for cinnci this weekend to reflect the larger meta.
Creatures14
4 dark confidant
4 tidehollow sculler
3 gifted aetherborn
3 smugglers copter
Instants and sorceries18
3 inquestion
3 thoughtseize
4 lingering souls
4 path to exile
3 fatal push
1 collective brutality
Planeswalkers5
3 liliana of the veil
2 sorin lord of innistrad
Lands23
4 marsh flats
1 windswept heath
4 concealed courtyard
3 shambling vents
2 godless shrine
2 swamp
1 plains
1 urborg tomb of yagmawth
2 mutavault
3 ghost quarter
Sb is heavily focused on the valakut and tron mu. Eldrazi tron while stil unfavorable has been feeling better lately since they removed ugin and ulamog. It feels like i lose more often then not but it always feels super close like one or two turns away. I agree that hitting them with discard early is our best bet at winning. I think if you can keep them off of tron and force them to play woth fair mana for at least most if the game you will win usually i lose to balista or karn which is what the needles are for. I have been bringing in surgical vs them to hit the cards we almost cant beat. Plan vs valakut is to try to get a halo on valakut or ghost quarter surgical it the rest of the deck after that is not a problem for us. It just becomes a game of keep titan off the feild and win bwfore they find an out for runed halo. Control and grindy match ups im bringing in gideon to try to just out midrange them with walkers.
Hey guys, I've been working on a list of my own for some time now. I'm in the process of testing and figuring out what exactly I want to be doing, but so far things are looking promising.
During your matches how did u feel Gifted Atherboorn performed over a Night hawk or Kitchen Finks? The flying on night hawk and persist on finks seem great and the cmc 3 while being a bit rough with bob triggers could be more powerful and worth it.
Hey guys, I've been working on a list of my own for some time now. I'm in the process of testing and figuring out what exactly I want to be doing, but so far things are looking promising.
I'm not a fan of this list to be honest. The curve is relativly high with 10x 3cmc, 2x 4cmc and 2x 5cmc. You have lifegain to offset the damage you take from Bob triggers, but I imagine that Baneslayer will come down too late in most situations you need the lifelink. Also I think Blessed Alliance is not where you want to be when you play Bob since it is a defensive card, while Bob wants your deck to be agressive and disruptive. Same goes for Gideon of the Trials. In UW Control, there is Wall of Omens and Sweepers like Supreme Verdict to support it, but here it will rarely be able to attack without being killed on the backswing. Lastly, Bob is your only (early) target for removal, so it probably won't get you any value. In general, I follow the rule "Either provide no removal targets at all or overload on them so the opponent cannot kill them all". Your deck seems to be stuck between midrange and control, it does not focus on one strategy. I could be wrong of course, so if it works out for you that's perfectly fine. It is just what strikes me when looking at the list.
I played DGA as my second deck in Modern a couple years ago. Never really got over the Orzhov bug, but have been trying some different angles for quite a while. Right now I'm on a BW Superfriends build I cooked up, and it has been surprisingly good--it's the second link in my sig if any are interested in a different angle on BW Midrange in Modern.
I played DGA as my second deck in Modern a couple years ago. Never really got over the Orzhov bug, but have been trying some different angles for quite a while. Right now I'm on a BW Superfriends build I cooked up, and it has been surprisingly good--it's the second link in my sig if any are interested in a different angle on BW Midrange in Modern.
Cheers to all.
I really like your take on the deck, although it is definitely BW control and not BW midrange. A few suggestions/questions:
- I would run 6 fetches and only 2 Shocks. Makes Push better and you have a higher chance to fetch early basics against Blood Moon.
- I do not see the reason to play Caves of Koilos since there are no Eldrazi. Maybe just play more basics like a 3/2 Swamp/Plains split?
- Liliana. the Last Hope 2nd ability is completely dead...if you want something against small creatures I would rather play Darkblast or one of the 3cmc sweepers.
- One reason I hesitate to run a BW Control/midrange build myself is the lack of good catch-all answers. BGx has Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse while the only similar card in Orzhov is Anguished Unmaking which really hurts with Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Nights Whisper.... I imagine you have problems with enchantments/artifacts like Ensnaring Bridge if they sneak past discard, at least game one?
Overall I really like the build though, thanks for sharing!
Thanks for looking, and for your feedback. The deck has really been crushing my shop, which hosts a large and skilled player base with a diverse meta. Not really sure I know where the line between control and midrange falls, here.
I've thought about more fetches, might add some in place for shocks. The Caves are a little experiment. They are for live draws of a fourth land, because I have lost games a few times due to a topdecked Vent or Courtyard while holding a Wrath effect. But last night I also pinged myself a lot with one and wasn't too psyched about it, so I'm thinking only one. Maybe. There's no room for more basics if I want 14 T1 sources of B and also 19 T3 sources of both BB and WW, which I do want for consistency.
LtLH has consistently been challenged but I am still not convinced she should go. She threatens on a different axis and her plus not only kills little guys, it also fogs bigger guys. Meanwhile, she demands attention because an opponent cannot afford to let her ult. I'm pretty sure this deck wants as many walkers as possible, and they are definitely better at 3 CMC than 4. If I do swap her out it would probably be for a Sorin, Solemn Visitor who is pretty bad on an empty board, but very good with flying tokens. I'm pretty sure I don't want 4 LotV.
Moon and Bridge are tough to deal with G1 for sure, other than through discard or possibly a LotV ult. OTOH BGx has threats that are much softer than ours, and is weak to graveyard hate, where BW Superfriends doesn't care about that. There's always gonna be a tradeoff.
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Have you been winning a lot with it?
Match 1: Boros Prison
Game 1 I had no idea what he was on and got killed by a Hazoret + Chandra + my own bob.
Game 2 he had a t1 blood moon, t3 ensnaring bridge and easily took it.
0-1
Match 2: Grixis Death's Shadow
G1 I got 2 scullers out early to keep him off of threats and he didn't draw removal. Sculler + manland beats took him out, with removal/discard to keep the way open.
G2 I kept a ridiculous hand of 3 lands, 3 path, 1 push. Drew a sculler in time for t2 and used it to keep him off of his stubborn denial, making it impossible for him to put a threat down safely. By the time he found removal for sculler I drew a thoughtseize and took it out of his hand, and eventually manlands + copter got there.
1-1
Match 3: Grixis Death's Shadow
G1 I don't remember much of. I just remember the final turn with him on 1 life and a 12/12 shadow + snap and me with a copter swinging for lethal in the air. He had a thought scour and mana up to try and find a removal spell to then counter punch me for massive lethal on his turn, but thankfully he didn't find it.
G2 Don't remember much of this one either, but I think lingering souls tokens were important.
2-1
Match 4: Burn
G1 I have thoughtseizes, bobs, and we both join in on the fun of killing me.
G2 Lingering Souls is king. I get 2 and end up at the end with 8 tokens out.
G3 Again lingering souls is stellar. That plus a collective brutality, sculler, and discard help me close this game out.
3-1
I had a lot of fun! I recently have been on an Abzan/Jund kick with the thought process of: it's like this deck but with goyf providing a proper clock. I did terribly with the bgx midrange decks though, and coming back to this felt so refreshing. I love knowing that I'm basically never going to stumble on mana colors, and getting to play 4 mutavaults feels silly. One game I had 3 out at once. Copter was great all night as well, looting turn after turn after turn. And I never had trouble crewing it thanks to mutavault.
Changes I like: +1 or 2 Damnation, -Forgetender in sideboard.
Sculler overperformed all night, as did copter and mutavault. Do not underestimate these cards!
Maybe I'll take a page out of bgx's book and play around with fulminator mage in the board. Seems decent.
E: I'll clarify that the reason I'm thinking about this is b/c these two decks (tron+shift) make up about 20% of the metagame right now, and they're classic bad matchups for midrange decks as it is. So It would be nice to have some concession for them in our 75
Valakut:
-4 Fatal Push
-1 Path to Exile
-1 Shambling Vent
+1 Shadow of Doubt
+1 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Surgical Extraction
+3 Collective Brutality
Eldrazi Tron:
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
-1 Shambling Vent
+1 Anguished Unmaking
+1 Big Game Hunter
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Gx Tron:
-4 Fatal Push
-1 Shambling Vent
+1 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Shadow of Doubt
+1 Anguished Unmaking
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction
-4 bod
-1 dark blast
-1 Zealous persecution
+3 Kinks
+1 Blood Baron
+2 Collective Brutality
Be a good plan for burn? Also plan to use the Blood baron adn kinks against control
Lands 23
Marsh Flatts x4
Arid Mesa (or a black fetch) x2
Godless Shrine x3
Concealed Courtyard x3
Shambling Vents x3
Isolated Chapel x2
Mutavault x3
Plains x2
Swamp x2
Still workign to find a mana baed i happy with, not sure if u want the 4th mutavault or 1st vault of the arch angle. 5 colorless land seems alot.
Creatures 8
Darl Confidant x4
TideHolow Sculler x4
Artifacts 3
Smugglers Copter x3
Sorcery 12
Inquisition of Kozilek x4
Lingering Souls x4
Thoughtseize x2
Collective Brutality x2
Instant 9
Path to Exile x4
Fatal Push x3
Dark Blast x1
Zealous Persecution x1
Planes Walkers 4
Liliana of the Veil x3
Liliana last Hope x1
SideBoard
Kitchen Finks x3
Collective Brutality x2
Rest in Peace x2
Shadow of Doubt x2
Disenchant x2
Blood Baron of Vizkopa x1
Graftdigger's cage x1
Wrath of God (or Damnation) x1
Still not happy with the actually ins and outs of side broad but i love having the 4 creatures against both control and aggressive decks, Doubts because titan shift is more prepared for cage. wrath because i don't like leaving home without it. What do yaw think? Still testing on making the deck feel right for me, and feel good to play. Was also wondering what people think about the Kitesail freebooter as a 5-9 of tide hollow? Its a 1/2 and wont take creatures which could be bad but its only 1 black so its easier to cast if the deck black heavy. Just wondering what more experienced players think.
Creatures14
4 dark confidant
4 tidehollow sculler
3 gifted aetherborn
3 smugglers copter
Instants and sorceries18
3 inquestion
3 thoughtseize
4 lingering souls
4 path to exile
3 fatal push
1 collective brutality
Planeswalkers5
3 liliana of the veil
2 sorin lord of innistrad
Lands23
4 marsh flats
1 windswept heath
4 concealed courtyard
3 shambling vents
2 godless shrine
2 swamp
1 plains
1 urborg tomb of yagmawth
2 mutavault
3 ghost quarter
Sb:
3 surgical extraction
2 runed halo
1 fatal push
1 collective brutality
1 disenchant
2 relic of progenius
1 ghost quarter
2 pithing needle
2 gideon ally of zendikar
Sb is heavily focused on the valakut and tron mu. Eldrazi tron while stil unfavorable has been feeling better lately since they removed ugin and ulamog. It feels like i lose more often then not but it always feels super close like one or two turns away. I agree that hitting them with discard early is our best bet at winning. I think if you can keep them off of tron and force them to play woth fair mana for at least most if the game you will win usually i lose to balista or karn which is what the needles are for. I have been bringing in surgical vs them to hit the cards we almost cant beat. Plan vs valakut is to try to get a halo on valakut or ghost quarter surgical it the rest of the deck after that is not a problem for us. It just becomes a game of keep titan off the feild and win bwfore they find an out for runed halo. Control and grindy match ups im bringing in gideon to try to just out midrange them with walkers.
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shambling Vent
3 Godless Shrine
3 Hostile Desert
2 Plains
2 Swamp
6 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Baneslayer Angel
8 Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Collective Brutality
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Lingering Souls
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Lost Legacy
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Revoke Existence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Wrath of God
I'm not a fan of this list to be honest. The curve is relativly high with 10x 3cmc, 2x 4cmc and 2x 5cmc. You have lifegain to offset the damage you take from Bob triggers, but I imagine that Baneslayer will come down too late in most situations you need the lifelink. Also I think Blessed Alliance is not where you want to be when you play Bob since it is a defensive card, while Bob wants your deck to be agressive and disruptive. Same goes for Gideon of the Trials. In UW Control, there is Wall of Omens and Sweepers like Supreme Verdict to support it, but here it will rarely be able to attack without being killed on the backswing. Lastly, Bob is your only (early) target for removal, so it probably won't get you any value. In general, I follow the rule "Either provide no removal targets at all or overload on them so the opponent cannot kill them all". Your deck seems to be stuck between midrange and control, it does not focus on one strategy. I could be wrong of course, so if it works out for you that's perfectly fine. It is just what strikes me when looking at the list.
Cheers to all.
I really like your take on the deck, although it is definitely BW control and not BW midrange. A few suggestions/questions:
- I would run 6 fetches and only 2 Shocks. Makes Push better and you have a higher chance to fetch early basics against Blood Moon.
- I do not see the reason to play Caves of Koilos since there are no Eldrazi. Maybe just play more basics like a 3/2 Swamp/Plains split?
- Liliana. the Last Hope 2nd ability is completely dead...if you want something against small creatures I would rather play Darkblast or one of the 3cmc sweepers.
- One reason I hesitate to run a BW Control/midrange build myself is the lack of good catch-all answers. BGx has Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse while the only similar card in Orzhov is Anguished Unmaking which really hurts with Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Nights Whisper.... I imagine you have problems with enchantments/artifacts like Ensnaring Bridge if they sneak past discard, at least game one?
Overall I really like the build though, thanks for sharing!
I've thought about more fetches, might add some in place for shocks. The Caves are a little experiment. They are for live draws of a fourth land, because I have lost games a few times due to a topdecked Vent or Courtyard while holding a Wrath effect. But last night I also pinged myself a lot with one and wasn't too psyched about it, so I'm thinking only one. Maybe. There's no room for more basics if I want 14 T1 sources of B and also 19 T3 sources of both BB and WW, which I do want for consistency.
LtLH has consistently been challenged but I am still not convinced she should go. She threatens on a different axis and her plus not only kills little guys, it also fogs bigger guys. Meanwhile, she demands attention because an opponent cannot afford to let her ult. I'm pretty sure this deck wants as many walkers as possible, and they are definitely better at 3 CMC than 4. If I do swap her out it would probably be for a Sorin, Solemn Visitor who is pretty bad on an empty board, but very good with flying tokens. I'm pretty sure I don't want 4 LotV.
Moon and Bridge are tough to deal with G1 for sure, other than through discard or possibly a LotV ult. OTOH BGx has threats that are much softer than ours, and is weak to graveyard hate, where BW Superfriends doesn't care about that. There's always gonna be a tradeoff.