Grats on the performance man! Deck still looks great! I think there personally is really no "wrong way" to go and that pretty much most iterations of this deck all come down to personal preference and metagame decisions. My list was tuned for GP Phx and I still have to see how my meta adjusts for the next big event. More big mana seems to be creeping back which means Blood Moons might want to come back in (which also makes me drop the green and BBE's). I've also seen an uptick in RG Eldrazi which I'd much rather out value them than Blood Moon them.
Thank you! I'm inclined to agree with you about big mana creeping back, and Mono G tron still seems to be holding a large metagame share even if I'm not seeing it in paper. I'll probably bring the Mardu version of the deck to GP Sydney in April as opposed to the Bloodbraid version solely for the presence of Blood Moon.
On a related note, Gerry T posted that list last week that had Crumble to Dust as opposed to Fulminators or Molten Rain. I like how hard of an answer it is, but it still gives the Tron player a turn to deploy a huge threat if we get it on our turn 4. What do y'all think about this tech?
I really dislike it and I think it's Gerry's latest "tech" that he'll eventually realize wasn't good enough. For me the entire matchup post-board relies on 1 TS and 1 Molten Rain. Nearly every game where I can resolve those on curve I have won. We dig hard enough to find our way into other copies and then clock them.
Quick tally, if Stoneforge Mystic were unbanned tommorrow, would she fit in the current pyro-reveler build? If so, what comes out, do you put swords alongside batterskull, and does the manabase become clunkier? Does she replace pyro or slot alongside? Is she a minimum 4 of or can 3 work?
Just some thought exercises.
Stoneforge would be an auto 4-of alongisde 1 Batterskull and 1-2 Swords. So mayb 6-7 slots for the deck. It would probably warp the deck around since Looting and the Pyromancer engine would get worse because of that. And I am not sure we would run that engine in that case then.
I actually disagree. I think that engine would remain because the tokens make amazing sword carriers and SFM replaces itself with a card in hand. Also I feel like one of the swords we'd be using is Sword of Light and Shadow which would let us recur our other creature threats like Reveler and Peezies. We'd probably cut out Blood Moon though and add more white in general to the deck.
I'm actually on board with the Crumble to Dust. That match up is abysmal for us. I think I'd rather just have that as the answer and hope for the best. It feels bad when we have to fight tooth and nail for a 2 card combo that only helps slow their game down rather than just having it all in one. That being said, I'd rather fight through their first few turns to try and resolve that rather than play a fulminator and hope to either hit more LD or a surgical. Having it all rolled up into the singular card is more appealing to me. Deal with their first couple of threats and hope it works out better for ya.
I'm actually on board with the Crumble to Dust. That match up is abysmal for us. I think I'd rather just have that as the answer and hope for the best. It feels bad when we have to fight tooth and nail for a 2 card combo that only helps slow their game down rather than just having it all in one. That being said, I'd rather fight through their first few turns to try and resolve that rather than play a fulminator and hope to either hit more LD or a surgical. Having it all rolled up into the singular card is more appealing to me. Deal with their first couple of threats and hope it works out better for ya.
Just my opinion.
My problem with Crumble isn't just the Tron matchup though. It's too slow often times for it to impact the outcome of the tron match anyway (and often ends up at about the same % or less than Molten Rain) but it is also just a narrow card that won't really come in against pretty much anything else. Molten Rain and Surgical are great for other matchups as well and I bring them in frequently because of how good they are.
I'd much rather have something that slows them down when cast most of the time than something that you'll probably never get to cast most of the time. The matchup is bad but I've had great success in post boarded games against it with the 3x Molten Rain 2x Surgical plan. I'd rather play the "run no hate for it at all" plan than the Crumble to Dust plan.
I finally managed to pick up a Liliana of the Veil today, which I've sorely needed for this deck. Here's what I'm playing at the moment, albeit still trying to figure out the kinks.
I still am not sure how to play this deck when you never draw into YP even after casting 3 looting, or how to deal with midragne decks that match your 1/1s with 5/6s on the regular. Any advice?
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
The lack of threat density is a known issue with the traditional Mardu list. It was why I added in the green for BBE in my version and while each versions has it's pros and cons, I have yet to have a game in which I did not find a threat that sticks.
Just a quick note: I have been testing a list with 2x Dire Fleet Daredevil in the main, alongside 2x Claim // Fame, and I'm pretty impressed with the results. Not sure if the cards are too cute, but Fame has actually been much better than Claim. I'll add an update in about a week or so to let you all know if this is a fad. (If anyone is wondering, I'm just trying to up the threat density in the list with the 2x Daredevils.)
Just a quick note: I have been testing a list with 2x Dire Fleet Daredevil in the main, alongside 2x Claim // Fame, and I'm pretty impressed with the results. Not sure if the cards are too cute, but Fame has actually been much better than Claim. I'll add an update in about a week or so to let you all know if this is a fad. (If anyone is wondering, I'm just trying to up the threat density in the list with the 2x Daredevils.)
I like Direfleet Daredevil as a card but I don't like it in our list because it's not really a good threat on it's own. I do like Claim//Fame and have tried it out in the past in Jund. My concern here is that we don't have enough 2 cmc or less creatures. Now I could see adding some number of Claim//Fame if I move to adding Goyf into the threat base for the 4c version but I don't know which cards I'd cut. Probably would have to trim on like Kommand #3 and other such things and I don't know if that is really where I want to be.
I'm actually on board with the Crumble to Dust. That match up is abysmal for us. I think I'd rather just have that as the answer and hope for the best. It feels bad when we have to fight tooth and nail for a 2 card combo that only helps slow their game down rather than just having it all in one. That being said, I'd rather fight through their first few turns to try and resolve that rather than play a fulminator and hope to either hit more LD or a surgical. Having it all rolled up into the singular card is more appealing to me. Deal with their first couple of threats and hope it works out better for ya.
Just my opinion.
My problem with Crumble isn't just the Tron matchup though. It's too slow often times for it to impact the outcome of the tron match anyway (and often ends up at about the same % or less than Molten Rain) but it is also just a narrow card that won't really come in against pretty much anything else. Molten Rain and Surgical are great for other matchups as well and I bring them in frequently because of how good they are.
I'd much rather have something that slows them down when cast most of the time than something that you'll probably never get to cast most of the time. The matchup is bad but I've had great success in post boarded games against it with the 3x Molten Rain 2x Surgical plan. I'd rather play the "run no hate for it at all" plan than the Crumble to Dust plan.
Another issue here is that Crumble costs 4 mana versus 3. I was thinking about it last night and I RARELY hit 4 lands by turn 4 (in my 19 land shell) between naturally drawing them and Looting. It's worth mentioning Frank Karsten's article "How Many Lands Do You Need To Consistently Hit Your Land Drops". Based on his statistics, 19 lands only gives you a 61% chance of hitting 4 lands by turn 4, and that is assuming you don't pitch any to looting. I don't think trying to cast Crumble on turn 4 in this deck is even remotely worth it.
Its not about Claim, its more about Fame tbh. Dire fleet gives us some cute interactions, but Fame has been really sick so far. Pitching it off of a reveler and then smashing for 6 has happened more than once, and giving a souls token haste can kill Jace and other PWs out of nowhere. Its fairly untested, but I'll let you know how it goes. It also breaks the mirror in certain instances. Updates to follow
Midrange decks are the least problem for us imo. 2 lingering souls and jund is done^^ Maybe you can explain your problem against midrange a bit more?
Jund has more threats, bigger threats, and more removal than we do at the cost of a slightly more strained mana base. We're trying to go "Young pyromancer flashback lingering souls" for value on turn 4 as a best case scenario - they're sending in a pair of 4/5 goyfs and have a Liliana eating our hand as theirs. Even if we go by "average" hand we do not have good ways to interact with multiples 4 and 5-toughness dudes, ESPECIALLY when they're easily recurred. Post board they have plenty of sweepers that pretty much make our plan of attack worthless, and that's really the only one we have.
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Midrange decks are the least problem for us imo. 2 lingering souls and jund is done^^ Maybe you can explain your problem against midrange a bit more?
Jund has more threats, bigger threats, and more removal than we do at the cost of a slightly more strained mana base. We're trying to go "Young pyromancer flashback lingering souls" for value on turn 4 as a best case scenario - they're sending in a pair of 4/5 goyfs and have a Liliana eating our hand as theirs. Even if we go by "average" hand we do not have good ways to interact with multiples 4 and 5-toughness dudes, ESPECIALLY when they're easily recurred. Post board they have plenty of sweepers that pretty much make our plan of attack worthless, and that's really the only one we have.
when you go wide,especially with fliers, you control the combat step. invalidate their spot removal with token generation, get the better end of liliana with flashback spells; then bury them with card advantage by chaining revelers.
the faithless looting engine lets you keep in discard post board because you can filter your hand. this is something jund cant do, and outside of maybe a single anger of the gods, golgari charm, or damnation they dont run any sweepers.
it isnt a homerun matchup, but nothing jund is doing is inherently good against what mardu pyromancer is bringing to the table. if you have land hate in your list that is just icing on the cake.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Midrange decks are the least problem for us imo. 2 lingering souls and jund is done^^ Maybe you can explain your problem against midrange a bit more?
Jund has more threats, bigger threats, and more removal than we do at the cost of a slightly more strained mana base. We're trying to go "Young pyromancer flashback lingering souls" for value on turn 4 as a best case scenario - they're sending in a pair of 4/5 goyfs and have a Liliana eating our hand as theirs. Even if we go by "average" hand we do not have good ways to interact with multiples 4 and 5-toughness dudes, ESPECIALLY when they're easily recurred. Post board they have plenty of sweepers that pretty much make our plan of attack worthless, and that's really the only one we have.
when you go wide,especially with fliers, you control the combat step. invalidate their spot removal with token generation, get the better end of liliana with flashback spells; then bury them with card advantage by chaining revelers.
the faithless looting engine lets you keep in discard post board because you can filter your hand. this is something jund cant do, and outside of maybe a single anger of the gods, golgari charm, or damnation they dont run any sweepers.
it isnt a homerun matchup, but nothing jund is doing is inherently good against what mardu pyromancer is bringing to the table. if you have land hate in your list that is just icing on the cake.
This, outside of Liliana the Last Hope which is starting to see a lot more MB play and is a MASSIVE beating for anyone on the normal Mardu list since it kills essentially all but Revelers and is pretty easy for them to defend.
Midrange decks are the least problem for us imo. 2 lingering souls and jund is done^^ Maybe you can explain your problem against midrange a bit more?
Jund has more threats, bigger threats, and more removal than we do at the cost of a slightly more strained mana base. We're trying to go "Young pyromancer flashback lingering souls" for value on turn 4 as a best case scenario - they're sending in a pair of 4/5 goyfs and have a Liliana eating our hand as theirs. Even if we go by "average" hand we do not have good ways to interact with multiples 4 and 5-toughness dudes, ESPECIALLY when they're easily recurred. Post board they have plenty of sweepers that pretty much make our plan of attack worthless, and that's really the only one we have.
when you go wide,especially with fliers, you control the combat step. invalidate their spot removal with token generation, get the better end of liliana with flashback spells; then bury them with card advantage by chaining revelers.
the faithless looting engine lets you keep in discard post board because you can filter your hand. this is something jund cant do, and outside of maybe a single anger of the gods, golgari charm, or damnation they dont run any sweepers.
it isnt a homerun matchup, but nothing jund is doing is inherently good against what mardu pyromancer is bringing to the table. if you have land hate in your list that is just icing on the cake.
I wonder if we're playing the same deck the more I hear this "go wide" comment. The idea of going wide relies on resolving a young pyromancer and casting multiple spells with him on board. This in practice doesn't work because people will, to quote Carnivorous Death-Parrot "Save a kill spell to deal with this guy." Unless you have 6 or more mana to work with, you will at best get one, sometimes two triggers in response to their kill spell. spending 5 mana on Raise the Alarm is not going to win games.
And that's aslo assuming that we even get to cast YP, he's far from guaranteed to show up, and Jund in particular has just as much if not more discard than we do, meaning it's not safe in our hand either.
I cannot see jund as being anything else than a 25/75 underdog, and would love for someone to explain where I'm wrong if you have anything beyond feels.
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there isnt anything 'feels' about it, its just looking at the contents of each deck and outlining the general strategy.
jund runs 24-25 lands. mardu runs 20. take a moment to think about that. how is it possible they have more threats, more discard, and more removal.
they dont.
mardu's discard and removal is just as punishing to them as theirs is to you. its an attrition matchup. jund kills YP on sight because if left unchecked for even a couple of turns the equity of their spot removal goes down the drain. even if you generate a single token before they kill it, it still means they used a whole card for less than a whole card from you.
if you cant see the value of cards like faithless looting, lingering souls, and bedlam reveler in a matchup that is about running eachother out of resources. well...im not sure anything anyone said could change your mind.
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mardu's discard and removal is just as punishing to them as theirs is to you. its an attrition matchup. jund kills YP on sight because if left unchecked for even a couple of turns the equity of their spot removal goes down the drain. even if you generate a single token before they kill it, it still means they used a whole card for less than a whole card from you.
On this note, don't just jam Pyromancer on 2. Wait til like turn 3 when you can play Peezy and then cast a spell that way you can ensure you net at least 1 token out of it.
I saw people talking about Dire Fleet Daredevil in the deck, and am kinda confused. Can't find how DFD can be better than good old Abbot of Keral Keep, he's a better topdeck and a beater. Stealing opponent's spells in this format is pretty meh, cause all decks are too tuned for their own gameplan (the only interesting matchup for this card is versus Jund, which is already favorable for Mardu). And I always better have Prowess on a creature rather than First Strike, especially in such deck with 30+ noncreature spells. Also in Mardu risk for Abbot exiling a land is pretty low if you play 19 lands. Much lower than situation when you just have no good card to steal with Daredevil.
I gonna try to play a couple of Abbots instead two Smuggler's Copters with two Claim // Fames - the potential sinergy of this two cards is insane. 3 mana for 5/2 hasty beater and value ETB effect is usually devastating.
I really dislike it and I think it's Gerry's latest "tech" that he'll eventually realize wasn't good enough. For me the entire matchup post-board relies on 1 TS and 1 Molten Rain. Nearly every game where I can resolve those on curve I have won. We dig hard enough to find our way into other copies and then clock them.
Might be, as I said, I am not sure about that.
Just my opinion.
My problem with Crumble isn't just the Tron matchup though. It's too slow often times for it to impact the outcome of the tron match anyway (and often ends up at about the same % or less than Molten Rain) but it is also just a narrow card that won't really come in against pretty much anything else. Molten Rain and Surgical are great for other matchups as well and I bring them in frequently because of how good they are.
I'd much rather have something that slows them down when cast most of the time than something that you'll probably never get to cast most of the time. The matchup is bad but I've had great success in post boarded games against it with the 3x Molten Rain 2x Surgical plan. I'd rather play the "run no hate for it at all" plan than the Crumble to Dust plan.
2 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
Creatures (8)
4 Bedlam Reveler
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells (33)
4 Faithless Looting
1 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Dreadbore
3 Manamorphose
2 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
3 Molten Rain
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Thoughtseize
I still am not sure how to play this deck when you never draw into YP even after casting 3 looting, or how to deal with midragne decks that match your 1/1s with 5/6s on the regular. Any advice?
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I like Direfleet Daredevil as a card but I don't like it in our list because it's not really a good threat on it's own. I do like Claim//Fame and have tried it out in the past in Jund. My concern here is that we don't have enough 2 cmc or less creatures. Now I could see adding some number of Claim//Fame if I move to adding Goyf into the threat base for the 4c version but I don't know which cards I'd cut. Probably would have to trim on like Kommand #3 and other such things and I don't know if that is really where I want to be.
Another issue here is that Crumble costs 4 mana versus 3. I was thinking about it last night and I RARELY hit 4 lands by turn 4 (in my 19 land shell) between naturally drawing them and Looting. It's worth mentioning Frank Karsten's article "How Many Lands Do You Need To Consistently Hit Your Land Drops". Based on his statistics, 19 lands only gives you a 61% chance of hitting 4 lands by turn 4, and that is assuming you don't pitch any to looting. I don't think trying to cast Crumble on turn 4 in this deck is even remotely worth it.
Jund has more threats, bigger threats, and more removal than we do at the cost of a slightly more strained mana base. We're trying to go "Young pyromancer flashback lingering souls" for value on turn 4 as a best case scenario - they're sending in a pair of 4/5 goyfs and have a Liliana eating our hand as theirs. Even if we go by "average" hand we do not have good ways to interact with multiples 4 and 5-toughness dudes, ESPECIALLY when they're easily recurred. Post board they have plenty of sweepers that pretty much make our plan of attack worthless, and that's really the only one we have.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Bigger? Yes! More? I dont know...^^
when you go wide,especially with fliers, you control the combat step. invalidate their spot removal with token generation, get the better end of liliana with flashback spells; then bury them with card advantage by chaining revelers.
the faithless looting engine lets you keep in discard post board because you can filter your hand. this is something jund cant do, and outside of maybe a single anger of the gods, golgari charm, or damnation they dont run any sweepers.
it isnt a homerun matchup, but nothing jund is doing is inherently good against what mardu pyromancer is bringing to the table. if you have land hate in your list that is just icing on the cake.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)This, outside of Liliana the Last Hope which is starting to see a lot more MB play and is a MASSIVE beating for anyone on the normal Mardu list since it kills essentially all but Revelers and is pretty easy for them to defend.
I wonder if we're playing the same deck the more I hear this "go wide" comment. The idea of going wide relies on resolving a young pyromancer and casting multiple spells with him on board. This in practice doesn't work because people will, to quote Carnivorous Death-Parrot "Save a kill spell to deal with this guy." Unless you have 6 or more mana to work with, you will at best get one, sometimes two triggers in response to their kill spell. spending 5 mana on Raise the Alarm is not going to win games.
And that's aslo assuming that we even get to cast YP, he's far from guaranteed to show up, and Jund in particular has just as much if not more discard than we do, meaning it's not safe in our hand either.
I cannot see jund as being anything else than a 25/75 underdog, and would love for someone to explain where I'm wrong if you have anything beyond feels.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
jund runs 24-25 lands. mardu runs 20. take a moment to think about that. how is it possible they have more threats, more discard, and more removal.
they dont.
mardu's discard and removal is just as punishing to them as theirs is to you. its an attrition matchup. jund kills YP on sight because if left unchecked for even a couple of turns the equity of their spot removal goes down the drain. even if you generate a single token before they kill it, it still means they used a whole card for less than a whole card from you.
if you cant see the value of cards like faithless looting, lingering souls, and bedlam reveler in a matchup that is about running eachother out of resources. well...im not sure anything anyone said could change your mind.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)On this note, don't just jam Pyromancer on 2. Wait til like turn 3 when you can play Peezy and then cast a spell that way you can ensure you net at least 1 token out of it.
I gonna try to play a couple of Abbots instead two Smuggler's Copters with two Claim // Fames - the potential sinergy of this two cards is insane. 3 mana for 5/2 hasty beater and value ETB effect is usually devastating.
BRG Shamans
WUBRGElementals