Played against a lot of Jeskai recently... How do we handle all the bolt/path/electrolyze/snapcaster action they have? They play too much removal to discard it all...
Played against a lot of Jeskai recently... How do we handle all the bolt/path/electrolyze/snapcaster action they have? They play too much removal to discard it all...
Honestly? Our best bet to beat jeskai is to kill their ways to win (collonades, secure the wastes, gideon, snapcasters) through removal, use discard to pick off their counterspells, and mill them out in game 1; then stay alive in game 2 before the clock runs out. As you said, we don't have ways to remove enough of their answers, and they don't need many of them to make it impossible for us to win. However, we should have enough answers to kill all their threats too - they only have 20-24 points of direct damage they can send at the dome in their entire deck, if they throw enough of it at our creatures they won't have enough to kill us with if we remove enough of their other threats.
If that sounds terrible, it is. There's a reason that jeskai is a tier 1 deck (about to get a HUGE boost with jace) and we're a tier 2 deck teetering on tier 3. They can play the game we WANT to play, and they do it more efficiently and more consistently. Anyone playing this deck should be playing it because they like the concept, not because they think it's the best deck in the format.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
It first, it seems so. Draw 2, lose 2. BUT if you do this on T2, you won't play anything besides this. With Manamorphose you draw 1 card but, probably, can play another cheap spell.
For example, with Whisper:
T1, looting discarding land and souls. Turn 2, Night's Whisper, draw two cards. Two sorcery/instant in graveyard. Perhaps your opponent casted a threat, perhaps not.
With Manamorphose:
Same turn 1 as above. Turn 2, Manamorphose, draw 1 card. Which cards are in your hands? Removal? You can still cast it because you have mana. Another faithless looting? Cast it and dig more. A looting and a discard? Cast both. Drew another Manamorphose? Cast it, draw a card, do what you have to do. Casted Manamorphose and did't drew anything interesting? Use the mana on the pool to cast the previous discarded Souls.
Manamorphose will always feed your graveyard faster because allows you to play more spells per turn.
Have you considered Claim // Fame in the deck ?
It can reanimate both DS and Pyro which happen to die a lot (and have some utility from the GY).
No but I'll test it anytime. But to be honest, I rather prefer use Kolaghan's Command. One of the best spells in the format.
Also I have found Bedlam Reveler hard to cast quite often and drawing multiples can be a problem so 4x Pyro and 3x Reveler seems like a better split imho.
For me, 4 Bedlam's go without saying. Yes, he's bad if you draw multiples but Kolaghans' Command is there for this reason. If the player is sequencing correctly his/her spells, he'll be fine to discard a bedlam because of other bedlam ETB. The "draw 3" ETB is too strong.
Another idea I have is maybe to add a copy of Rally the Peasants to the deck as it can work really well with Lingering Souls and Pyro tokens to close out the game and can be cast from the GY after being pitched earlier to Looting.
What do you think ?
To be honest, I don't know. I don't find any reason to not test it at all.
That's exactly where it came from. He had talked about how he wanted more of them.
Do you know what his updated list for the GP was?
From his article:
Does anyone have any thoughts as to why GT is using an Arid Mesa instead of the fourth Marsh Flats?
To fetch basic mountain. In my testing lately I haven't liked 4x Marsh Flats. I find myself fetching basics the more I play, and having to shock with Marsh Flats for a red source is a negative sometimes.
While Fatal Push is an incredibly powerful card, I'm decidedly unimpressed with it in general, but that's mainly because when I'm trying to Blood Moon my opponent, if I land it and they then have a creature I need to remove, getting revolt can be very difficult.
I'm currently experimenting with a list with 4x Manamorphose and a list with 0 of them. The 4x Manamorphose list feels super powerful, but since they're all sold out from where I get my cards, I have to borrow them rather than use my own.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
While Fatal Push is an incredibly powerful card, I'm decidedly unimpressed with it in general, but that's mainly because when I'm trying to Blood Moon my opponent, if I land it and they then have a creature I need to remove, getting revolt can be very difficult.
I'm currently experimenting with a list with 4x Manamorphose and a list with 0 of them. The 4x Manamorphose list feels super powerful, but since they're all sold out from where I get my cards, I have to borrow them rather than use my own.
Interesting. What have you removed to make room for the additional Manamorphose?
The following is the list I've been working with - I think compared to the list I've got with no Manamorphoses, the cuts from the main are 1x fetchland, 1x Blood Moon (or Forked Bolt, depending on how I'm running it), 1x Hazoret, and 1x Terminate.
Usually against control and games where I'm expecting it to go a bit longer. A threat that lives through Verdict and can throw away cards for value helps there. If there was any Grixis at my store, I'd bring it in there, too - they can't deal with it at all.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I wonder how Gerry would update the list for post-JTMS/Elf world, if he would at all.
How are people feeling about 2 moon main, and 3 molten rain / surgical in the side? I've seen it more and more, whereas I'm still on 1 moon main, 2 in SB. How good is molten/surgical vs. decks that aren't tron? I think I'm gonna keep my Hazoret in the main, because there is no way I'm buying 2 LOTV for $100 a piece, so I might try to borrow one for the side at most. Has anyone gotten testing in with Lili last hope? I've been testing darkblast in the slot instead of her, but haven't really played too many matchups where it was good.
And another thought, I'm thinking about testing needle. Vs. UW control you can name Colonade or JTM, and it was in the original list, I think it could be worth 2 sideboard slots.
I think that deck will still be viable in the new modern world. Mardu has a good Jund and Control matchup in my exp, tokens are very good against Jace. Also Hazoret is just gas.
I would go away with the BM plan a little bit and focus on grinding a little more: That means more LoTV, less BM main, and maybe 2 dreadbore.
Mardu has a good Jund and Control matchup in my exp, tokens are very good against Jace.
2 dreadbore.
I disagree a bit. Played against UW controle with Jace, and Azcanta etc... We try to disrupt the opponent and then outgrind/value them. Playing against Jund is ok but grinding Jace is almost impossible if you cannot instantly kill him. If Jace sticks a round the opponent will find his answer to out attacks almost everytime.
Hey all, a bit new to the site but I've been playing Mardu Pyro for about 3 months. Some thought on deck + about comments on last page :
1- I like the 5 cards split on Terminate/Dreadbore/Fatal Push . This is constantly changing for me (meta dependent). Since Tron and Jace are a bit popular at my local shop, I'm on a 2xterminate, 2xdreadbore, 1push (but 2 side).
2- I prefer having 2 Blood Moon main vs 1. It just gives you wins vs a lot of deck, even times when Blood Moon isn't suppose to be good (vs Burn, Affinity).
I never tried Manamorphose and I see some people who are playing 4 . This deck is hard to trim, feel that all card have a good purpose. At the same time, it looks like you are almost always happy to have Manamorphose in your hand or on a topdeck. Looking foward for some playtesting with the card + reading reports on this site!
Here is a super quick report of my last Modern tournament (3-1). I have a pretty stock list, will post it later.
Match 1 (vs Burn) 1-2
Game 1 : I manage pretty much all creature he plays, I'm at 3 for 2 turns, he never top deck the burn spell, I win.
Game 2 : Goblin Guide again on T1, hits me 2 times, and he get there with burn spells.
Game 3 : Top deck war again, I needed to dodge a burn spells on top deck mode for 2 turns, oops, GG
Thought - I would like 4 Collective Brutality in the 75(only play 3). The card is just sick for this match-up and is needed. Guess this match up is about 40-60 but Brutality is the hope
Match 2 (vs new Burn Player (with the real deck anyway)) 2-0
Game 1 : Opponent is mana screw for 2 turns, gives me enough times (and thanks brutality!)
Game 2 : Decided to keep 1 blood moon in the deck. I play it, Opponent is stuck with boros charm+helix in hands when needed a last burn spell.
Match 3 (vs GW Company Todd Stevens list)
Game 1 : 3 Voices is too much value, can't comeback.
Game 2 : I decided to keep 1 Blood Moon to stop the late game value he can get. I destroy the manadork, play BMoon on Turn 3, he never game white mana. Pyromancer+spells get me the win. He said he was surprise to see Blood Moon and didn't fetch anticipating it.
Game 3 : I 1 for 1 everything and a well timed Kolaghan's Command on a dork+EExplosives gives me the game (he was a bit mana screw.
Match 4 (vs Esper Control w/ 4 Jaces) 2-0
Game 1 : He taps out to play Jaces. He +2 to look at my top of library. ''WOW'' he says, Dreadbore ! Oops, the other one is in my hands ! I also land 1 turn later Blood Moon, and kill him with Tokens
Game 2 : Blood Moon gives him trouble again, he also land flood. GG. I guess i'ts risky to play 3 colors with Field of Ruins !
Thought - More than happy to play 2 dreadbore since our deck can't put lot of pressure on Jace.
I really dont know why people are still playing 2 BM maindeck. Attrition based games and aggro based games is what will dominate the meta now. Lots of decks are playing BM themselves now. You need to use the slots to help yourself more in grindy matchups. That means playing more LoTV, LtLH, Hazoret, and more Dreadbore/Fatal Push.
From his article:
Honestly? Our best bet to beat jeskai is to kill their ways to win (collonades, secure the wastes, gideon, snapcasters) through removal, use discard to pick off their counterspells, and mill them out in game 1; then stay alive in game 2 before the clock runs out. As you said, we don't have ways to remove enough of their answers, and they don't need many of them to make it impossible for us to win. However, we should have enough answers to kill all their threats too - they only have 20-24 points of direct damage they can send at the dome in their entire deck, if they throw enough of it at our creatures they won't have enough to kill us with if we remove enough of their other threats.
If that sounds terrible, it is. There's a reason that jeskai is a tier 1 deck (about to get a HUGE boost with jace) and we're a tier 2 deck teetering on tier 3. They can play the game we WANT to play, and they do it more efficiently and more consistently. Anyone playing this deck should be playing it because they like the concept, not because they think it's the best deck in the format.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
It first, it seems so. Draw 2, lose 2. BUT if you do this on T2, you won't play anything besides this. With Manamorphose you draw 1 card but, probably, can play another cheap spell.
For example, with Whisper:
T1, looting discarding land and souls. Turn 2, Night's Whisper, draw two cards. Two sorcery/instant in graveyard. Perhaps your opponent casted a threat, perhaps not.
With Manamorphose:
Same turn 1 as above. Turn 2, Manamorphose, draw 1 card. Which cards are in your hands? Removal? You can still cast it because you have mana. Another faithless looting? Cast it and dig more. A looting and a discard? Cast both. Drew another Manamorphose? Cast it, draw a card, do what you have to do. Casted Manamorphose and did't drew anything interesting? Use the mana on the pool to cast the previous discarded Souls.
Manamorphose will always feed your graveyard faster because allows you to play more spells per turn.
No but I'll test it anytime. But to be honest, I rather prefer use Kolaghan's Command. One of the best spells in the format.
For me, 4 Bedlam's go without saying. Yes, he's bad if you draw multiples but Kolaghans' Command is there for this reason. If the player is sequencing correctly his/her spells, he'll be fine to discard a bedlam because of other bedlam ETB. The "draw 3" ETB is too strong.
To be honest, I don't know. I don't find any reason to not test it at all.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to why GT is using an Arid Mesa instead of the fourth Marsh Flats?
To fetch basic mountain. In my testing lately I haven't liked 4x Marsh Flats. I find myself fetching basics the more I play, and having to shock with Marsh Flats for a red source is a negative sometimes.
I'm currently experimenting with a list with 4x Manamorphose and a list with 0 of them. The 4x Manamorphose list feels super powerful, but since they're all sold out from where I get my cards, I have to borrow them rather than use my own.
Interesting. What have you removed to make room for the additional Manamorphose?
// 8 Creature
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
// 14 Instant
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
4 Manamorphose
3 Kolaghan's Command
// 19 Land
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dreadbore
4 Lingering Souls
// 2 Artifact
2 Nihil Spellbomb
// 4 Creature
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
// 4 Instant
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
// 4 Sorcery
1 Collective Brutality
3 Molten Rain
When do you typically board in Hazoret?
How are people feeling about 2 moon main, and 3 molten rain / surgical in the side? I've seen it more and more, whereas I'm still on 1 moon main, 2 in SB. How good is molten/surgical vs. decks that aren't tron? I think I'm gonna keep my Hazoret in the main, because there is no way I'm buying 2 LOTV for $100 a piece, so I might try to borrow one for the side at most. Has anyone gotten testing in with Lili last hope? I've been testing darkblast in the slot instead of her, but haven't really played too many matchups where it was good.
And another thought, I'm thinking about testing needle. Vs. UW control you can name Colonade or JTM, and it was in the original list, I think it could be worth 2 sideboard slots.
I would go away with the BM plan a little bit and focus on grinding a little more: That means more LoTV, less BM main, and maybe 2 dreadbore.
I disagree a bit. Played against UW controle with Jace, and Azcanta etc... We try to disrupt the opponent and then outgrind/value them. Playing against Jund is ok but grinding Jace is almost impossible if you cannot instantly kill him. If Jace sticks a round the opponent will find his answer to out attacks almost everytime.
1- I like the 5 cards split on Terminate/Dreadbore/Fatal Push . This is constantly changing for me (meta dependent). Since Tron and Jace are a bit popular at my local shop, I'm on a 2xterminate, 2xdreadbore, 1push (but 2 side).
2- I prefer having 2 Blood Moon main vs 1. It just gives you wins vs a lot of deck, even times when Blood Moon isn't suppose to be good (vs Burn, Affinity).
I never tried Manamorphose and I see some people who are playing 4 . This deck is hard to trim, feel that all card have a good purpose. At the same time, it looks like you are almost always happy to have Manamorphose in your hand or on a topdeck. Looking foward for some playtesting with the card + reading reports on this site!
Here is a super quick report of my last Modern tournament (3-1). I have a pretty stock list, will post it later.
Match 1 (vs Burn) 1-2
Game 1 : I manage pretty much all creature he plays, I'm at 3 for 2 turns, he never top deck the burn spell, I win.
Game 2 : Goblin Guide again on T1, hits me 2 times, and he get there with burn spells.
Game 3 : Top deck war again, I needed to dodge a burn spells on top deck mode for 2 turns, oops, GG
Thought - I would like 4 Collective Brutality in the 75(only play 3). The card is just sick for this match-up and is needed. Guess this match up is about 40-60 but Brutality is the hope
Match 2 (vs new Burn Player (with the real deck anyway)) 2-0
Game 1 : Opponent is mana screw for 2 turns, gives me enough times (and thanks brutality!)
Game 2 : Decided to keep 1 blood moon in the deck. I play it, Opponent is stuck with boros charm+helix in hands when needed a last burn spell.
Match 3 (vs GW Company Todd Stevens list)
Game 1 : 3 Voices is too much value, can't comeback.
Game 2 : I decided to keep 1 Blood Moon to stop the late game value he can get. I destroy the manadork, play BMoon on Turn 3, he never game white mana. Pyromancer+spells get me the win. He said he was surprise to see Blood Moon and didn't fetch anticipating it.
Game 3 : I 1 for 1 everything and a well timed Kolaghan's Command on a dork+EExplosives gives me the game (he was a bit mana screw.
Match 4 (vs Esper Control w/ 4 Jaces) 2-0
Game 1 : He taps out to play Jaces. He +2 to look at my top of library. ''WOW'' he says, Dreadbore ! Oops, the other one is in my hands ! I also land 1 turn later Blood Moon, and kill him with Tokens
Game 2 : Blood Moon gives him trouble again, he also land flood. GG. I guess i'ts risky to play 3 colors with Field of Ruins !
Thought - More than happy to play 2 dreadbore since our deck can't put lot of pressure on Jace.
Enough for today !
Yesterday I got just rekt by R-Tron and could not do anything.
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Swamp
4 Bedlam Reveler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Terminate
2 Dreadbore
1 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lingering Souls
2 Blood Moon
1 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Collective Brutality
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Wear // Tear
1 Liliana of the Veil
Since 4 Blood Moon are not enough to stop Tron, I need some advise here, what do to?
- Id like to add a fast clock (Goblin Rabblemaster)
- Molten Rain + Surgical Extraction
What else can I do? :x
New deck would look like this:
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Swamp
4 Bedlam Reveler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Dreadbore
2 Terminate
1 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Molten Rain
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Wear // Tear
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Still no room for Rabblemaster and no burnspells beside Bolt are left... im not happy.
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
BM is not gonna help you in control matchups.