Y why is tron bad if the deck mainboard blood moon and sb land destruction
Because Land destruction and especially Blood Moon is not really enough to beat Tron. It is a big misconsception that Blood Moon just wins you the game vs. Tron.
Jund/Abzan also plays Landdestruction in the SB and its one of the worst matchups.
The thing which is just missing here is a clock. Blood Moon slows the tron player down, which gives you time. However, if you dont use that time effectively to clock the opponent, eventually they will reach their 6 lands to cast Wurmcoil or something worse. And as soon as Wurmcoil comes down, it basically gives them enough time to get to Ugin territory.
Y why is tron bad if the deck mainboard blood moon and sb land destruction
Because Land destruction and especially Blood Moon is not really enough to beat Tron. It is a big misconsception that Blood Moon just wins you the game vs. Tron.
Jund/Abzan also plays Landdestruction in the SB and its one of the worst matchups.
The thing which is just missing here is a clock. Blood Moon slows the tron player down, which gives you time. However, if you dont use that time effectively to clock the opponent, eventually they will reach their 6 lands to cast Wurmcoil or something worse. And as soon as Wurmcoil comes down, it basically gives them enough time to get to Ugin territory.
That makes sense I imagine though will all the 4 ofs the deck is pretty consistent. Hand disruption an early pyromancer and moon makes me think we could end it quickly.
Pyromancer is pretty slow unless you pair him with a bunch of spells. If you go turn 1 discard into turn 2 pyromancer into turn 3 BM, you are still only attacking for 2 on turn 3 and you dont have many spells in the yard to power an early Reveler out.
And that all does nothing agaisnt trons better draws where they have a turn 3 karn.
Talking about regular tron here, but E tron doesnt seem good either.
I would still consider Lantern as control, but yeah. Stony and EE seem good to run if it gets more popular.
On burn, well for me it just hasnt been bad yet. At least not that unbeatable to run a very narrow SB card like Dragons Claw. I think SB cards in modern are too precious to play a card like that.
I wouldn't want Lightning helix. That card was in the original list and it was pretty taxing to have the card in hand and not be able to cast it. Not to mention that Collective Brutality is actually better than helix vs burn. Helix is a 6 point life swing where brutality is somewhere between 7 and 8 points in life that you save yourself. I like Kambal in the board but he may be a little unnecessary. He's good against Burn and Storm but I'm more inclined to play something like EE.
Engineered Explosives probably provides more utility in more matches than Kambal. The meta will probably shift a little more towards decks like this. Meaning your EE gets a little bit stronger and more flexible.
As far as tron is concerned though, I think we forgot to mention that they also bring in annoying cards to keep us behind too. The get cards like Relic that slow us down. We both have a strategy of trying to slow the other deck down but the problem is that they go bigger than us when we slow them down. Along with what FlyingDelver said, they basically just buy themselves enough time to play a big threat. if we are slowing ourselves down to try and slow them down and they are slowing us down too, it advantages them. I like Rabblemaster for this reason. he can close out a game quicker than most of the other threats that we have available. I'm also not opposed to something like Monastery Mentor either but he's simply slower than Rabblemaster and probably not as diverse of a threat.
I feel like I'm playing this deck entirely wrong. I'm watching Gerry and every time it seems like he goes turn 1 land faithless looting, turn 2 pyro, opponent has no kill spell so he untaps, flashes back lingering souls and holds up R/B for push or bolt. And it feels so natural, like everyone should be doing that every time.
Meanwhile I play and I'm casting turn 1 looting turn 2 looting and finding absolutely nothing, end up pitching 3 lands and a bedlam reveler that I hope to recur with KCommand, play my third land and from there just trying to trade one-for-one with my opponent who's dropping 2 must-answer dudes every turn. When I do find pyromancer, it gets killed as soon as I give up priority and I get at most 1 elemental off him. Playing only 1 terminate, 1 dreadbore and 2 fatal push also seems horribly wrong, because I run into so many things that bolt can't touch and only sometimes die to push. Seems most people are getting great results with this, so I posit to you all the following questions:
-What is the correct order of discarding stuff to faithless looting? I know souls is the best card to pitch, followed by revelers we can recur, then probably extra lands. Pitching removal feels terrible.
-What hands are keeps and what hands are ships? I'm sure I've sent back amazing hands and kept terrible ones, but it's impossible to tell which is which in the heat of the moment.
-How are we expecting to deal with 4/5 goyfs and 8/8 death's shadows and 5/5 reality smashers? There seems to be far too few removal spells but I don't have a good idea of what you'd cut for more.
-Is blood moon actually good coming down on turn 3? It feels way too slow in most matchups - especially humans.
I want to like this deck but it's just doing absolutely nothing.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I feel like I'm playing this deck entirely wrong. I'm watching Gerry and every time it seems like he goes turn 1 land faithless looting, turn 2 pyro, opponent has no kill spell so he untaps, flashes back lingering souls and holds up R/B for push or bolt. And it feels so natural, like everyone should be doing that every time.
Meanwhile I play and I'm casting turn 1 looting turn 2 looting and finding absolutely nothing, end up pitching 3 lands and a bedlam reveler that I hope to recur with KCommand, play my third land and from there just trying to trade one-for-one with my opponent who's dropping 2 must-answer dudes every turn. When I do find pyromancer, it gets killed as soon as I give up priority and I get at most 1 elemental off him. Playing only 1 terminate, 1 dreadbore and 2 fatal push also seems horribly wrong, because I run into so many things that bolt can't touch and only sometimes die to push. Seems most people are getting great results with this, so I posit to you all the following questions:
-What is the correct order of discarding stuff to faithless looting? I know souls is the best card to pitch, followed by revelers we can recur, then probably extra lands. Pitching removal feels terrible.
-What hands are keeps and what hands are ships? I'm sure I've sent back amazing hands and kept terrible ones, but it's impossible to tell which is which in the heat of the moment.
-How are we expecting to deal with 4/5 goyfs and 8/8 death's shadows and 5/5 reality smashers? There seems to be far too few removal spells but I don't have a good idea of what you'd cut for more.
-Is blood moon actually good coming down on turn 3? It feels way too slow in most matchups - especially humans.
I want to like this deck but it's just doing absolutely nothing.
There is no correct order for discarding. Prioritizing your spells is super important in every different match up. As far as I can tell, you should almost always be prioritizing hand disruption on turn 1 in order to protect your hand/spells and gain information on how you should proceed.
As far as discarding, it all depends on what your opponent is playing. Sometimes discarding removal spells is correct. Sometimes discarding lands is correct. It really is all dependent of the hand you have, what you know about your opponents deck, and what spells are more important in the match up.
As for hands that you should keep, look for the hands that have plays on turn 1 and 2. You want to be casting spells as often as possible throughout the match. typically the best hands to keep are ones that have disruption on turn 1 and removal + card draw on 2. However, we don't always get to live in Christmas land. I usually look at a hand and try to figure out what my turn 1,2, and 3 plays might be so I can sculpt a game plan. If its hard to look past turn 2, make an informed decision on what you think could happen during your first 2 turns.
Blood moon on turn 3 is dependent on board state. If you can plausibly lock your opponent out on turn 3 while also allowing you to get ahead on board or stay ahead on board for the foreseeable future, it's a fine play. Typically though, I lean towards playing more impactful plays that allow me to get in better board position. Blood moon in this deck appears to be better in the late game. However, I am willing to concede that idea if someone else wants to correct me.
Edit: I also see blood moon as one of the worst cards in this deck and it feels more like a necessary evil rather than a useful implementation. The card does not trigger young pyro and also does not count towards Revelers cost reduction. It feels more like a card that helps out some bad match ups in the early game or shuts out opponents in the late game once you have board control. Just my opinion though.
I made 3-1 today in a local tournament of 14 players running the same list that gerry thompson (except dont have lilianas)
Win vs Grixis shadows 2-0, win vs 4c Death shadows 2-1, wins vs Death and Taxes 2-1 and lose vs dredge 1-2
Things i notices playing the deck:
I win the final matchs vs 4C death shadow by casting a damnation that i put in the SB (gerry dont run it) for remove his 2x tarmogoyf and 1x shadow, if not i cant win that match
Loose vs dredge because dont run Anger of the gods in the SB and only 2x Nihil Spellbomb to graveyard hate, so a split of 1x damnation and 1x anger could be the right number
I still dont know why this deck dont run path to exile ??? i have some troubles for remove a gurmag angler from the board, only has 1 terminate and 1 dreadbore in the deck to remove big creatures
Sometimes i need a big win condition but only has tokens in the board, i run 1x Kalitas in the SB and was spectacular the games i sideboard it, vs aggro its auto-win, maybe i move 1x to maindeck
Also very few white producing lands for lingerings souls, in 2 games i have 2-3 lingerings souls in hand and CANT CAST IT also losee one game due to not can cast it from the hand just from the gy, i think im gonna put 1x goodless shrine in mainboard
Blood moon its a bad card in this deck, the games i draw it dont cast it just looting to draw better spells its a sideboard card for me
The deck its great but need more testing/adjusting the final cards
Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
Last night I found out first hand how bad the Storm match is for this deck. This deck cant produce a fast enough threat to close those games out in enough time to make your hand disruption useful. I am probably going to adding Goblin Rabblemaster to the main and adding a second Kambal, Consul of Allocation to the board.
The reason that I am choosing Goblin Rabblemaster is actually for a couple of reasons. I debated using Gurmag Angler in that slot but he doesn't help the deck. It requires cards in the graveyard (which this deck already has problems with) and it sometimes eats the cards we want to save in there. The second reason is that Gurmag doesnt seem to be any faster than Rabblemaster when considering damage over a couple of turns. Rabblemaster is a little weaker with its 2/2 body but if it isn't interacted with, it can close out a game super quick.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation is a card that I wanted a second copy of. It can apply to the Burn match (I thought burn was particularly easy any ways). More importantly, The Storm Match is where we really want this card. It's going to allow us hold them off for a turn or 2 before they kill it and allow us to get our cracks in. I think combined with the rest of the discard and threats I am making to the deck, it will help lock that match up.
With my choices, I could be incredibly wrong and way off but based on the results that I saw last night, Storm felt unwinnable and the rest of the field felt like a normal midrange match up. Every round except for storm, I felt like I was in good position.
Please let me know what you guys think so I can tune the deck a little better for the future events.
I can't see Storm being bad. I've piloted Storm vs this deck about 5 time and won only 1.
The lack of a good clock is a problem, but when you have like 8-10 discard spells, a turn 2 or 3 pyro + turn 3 Lingering souls + a turn 5ish Reveler is a pretty good. Sidebaord out all removal if you can, you don't need it unless you can wipe the 1/1 Goblins. The important part is the insane amount of discard. Just don't keep hands with 0 discard, board in Collective Brutality if you aren't mainboarding.
As for not Running Path to Exile, the deck runs Dreadbore and Terminate, which are better removal because of no drawback. Against Death's Shadow, maybe putting in some graveyard hate is good, as Snapcaster is a huge threat in Death's Shadow alongside the delve creatures
The problem I had was that the threats weren't fast enough against storm and with all the discard, I wasn't able to close the game out fast enough before storm rebuilt their hand. This was a horrendous match. I think there needs to be another threat in the deck in this match up so you consistently have something going on. The other problem I had was that the Storm player I played against is a good player and he's been tuning his list for a while now. He knew what to expect and boarded in a lot of answers for what I was doing. I would expect all of my Storm opponents to play as good as he did.
not to mention that you have to leave in some number of removal spells to clear out the mana reducers they play (generally speaking I presume Baral is the only one they leave in post board)
I don't think Bone Picker is where we wanna be. It seems like a card you'd want in an aggressive style of deck. I like the card but, I don't think it has found it's home yet.
I was looking into building this deck (Pyro/Reveler Version) after seeing it play at the PT, and I was only curious if anyone was playing Abrade? Seems like a very versatile card that hits a few things (Chalice, Bridge, Wurmcoil etc.) that might give us some trouble. Not sure if it is worth the slot, or if it is inefficent in this style of list. Along the same lines, Is Arc Trail a card to consider? Flame Jab?
After reading up on some of the comments (and many, many pages) I'd also like to know why we aren't playing Harsh mentor vs Lantern? Not sure if he popped up earlier in the conversation, but I notice that he wasn't something actively in contention for slots. Just my .02. Let me know what y'all are thinking. Cheers!
I can't see Storm being bad. I've piloted Storm vs this deck about 5 time and won only 1.
You could play this deck vs Storm 10 times and win all 10 times, it doesn't mean it's a good MU. It's a small sample and we all have to rely on both players making the right choices.
In fact, the MU depends on how much graveyard hate you have in your sideboard. Discard spells aren't enough, 'cause this deck doesn't put pressure nearly fast enough (unless you play Rabblemaster). You can discard all the cards you want, at some point, if you don't clean the yard, they will flash them back with Past in Flames and go off.
Going off with PiF requires 6 mana from them. If you are discarding their hand, then the odds are pretty low they will have 2 rituals and a pif in hand, 4 lands in play, and a gifts or Empty in the grave/hand. So usually you are waiting for them to drop 5 or more lands. Thats like usually around turn 7+. If the Pif is in grave then it requires 7 mana.
Thats a LOT of time for you to get going or find a graveyard hate piece. I can't see Storm having a favorable matchup at all tbh. Even in game 1 has to be pretty close to 50/50
The question you gotta ask yourself: In Mardu colours, the colours which has access to the best and most efficient removal spells each for creatures and artifacts in the entire modern format, do you need that cards? I personally almost certainly say no, we do have KCommand, bolt, push, terminate, path, wear//tear, Stony Silence if you want. Do you really need that card? Does it help for the bad matchups?
Mardu is not a deck that has problems with too few removal, if anything, we would want a better clock. Thats why I advocate highly for Rabblemaster and Hazoret.
Personally, I think Rabblemaster is better than Hazoret but thats just my opinion. I really wanted to try Monastery Mentor but it would require adding an additional white source and I'm not to that point yet. I was looking for the best threat I could find in B or R. I think Rabblemaster hits the sweet spot.
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Because Land destruction and especially Blood Moon is not really enough to beat Tron. It is a big misconsception that Blood Moon just wins you the game vs. Tron.
Jund/Abzan also plays Landdestruction in the SB and its one of the worst matchups.
The thing which is just missing here is a clock. Blood Moon slows the tron player down, which gives you time. However, if you dont use that time effectively to clock the opponent, eventually they will reach their 6 lands to cast Wurmcoil or something worse. And as soon as Wurmcoil comes down, it basically gives them enough time to get to Ugin territory.
That makes sense I imagine though will all the 4 ofs the deck is pretty consistent. Hand disruption an early pyromancer and moon makes me think we could end it quickly.
Does this include etron or just classic tron?
How do we gain points in the match?
And that all does nothing agaisnt trons better draws where they have a turn 3 karn.
Talking about regular tron here, but E tron doesnt seem good either.
On burn, well for me it just hasnt been bad yet. At least not that unbeatable to run a very narrow SB card like Dragons Claw. I think SB cards in modern are too precious to play a card like that.
Engineered Explosives probably provides more utility in more matches than Kambal. The meta will probably shift a little more towards decks like this. Meaning your EE gets a little bit stronger and more flexible.
As far as tron is concerned though, I think we forgot to mention that they also bring in annoying cards to keep us behind too. The get cards like Relic that slow us down. We both have a strategy of trying to slow the other deck down but the problem is that they go bigger than us when we slow them down. Along with what FlyingDelver said, they basically just buy themselves enough time to play a big threat. if we are slowing ourselves down to try and slow them down and they are slowing us down too, it advantages them. I like Rabblemaster for this reason. he can close out a game quicker than most of the other threats that we have available. I'm also not opposed to something like Monastery Mentor either but he's simply slower than Rabblemaster and probably not as diverse of a threat.
Meanwhile I play and I'm casting turn 1 looting turn 2 looting and finding absolutely nothing, end up pitching 3 lands and a bedlam reveler that I hope to recur with KCommand, play my third land and from there just trying to trade one-for-one with my opponent who's dropping 2 must-answer dudes every turn. When I do find pyromancer, it gets killed as soon as I give up priority and I get at most 1 elemental off him. Playing only 1 terminate, 1 dreadbore and 2 fatal push also seems horribly wrong, because I run into so many things that bolt can't touch and only sometimes die to push. Seems most people are getting great results with this, so I posit to you all the following questions:
-What is the correct order of discarding stuff to faithless looting? I know souls is the best card to pitch, followed by revelers we can recur, then probably extra lands. Pitching removal feels terrible.
-What hands are keeps and what hands are ships? I'm sure I've sent back amazing hands and kept terrible ones, but it's impossible to tell which is which in the heat of the moment.
-How are we expecting to deal with 4/5 goyfs and 8/8 death's shadows and 5/5 reality smashers? There seems to be far too few removal spells but I don't have a good idea of what you'd cut for more.
-Is blood moon actually good coming down on turn 3? It feels way too slow in most matchups - especially humans.
I want to like this deck but it's just doing absolutely nothing.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
There is no correct order for discarding. Prioritizing your spells is super important in every different match up. As far as I can tell, you should almost always be prioritizing hand disruption on turn 1 in order to protect your hand/spells and gain information on how you should proceed.
As far as discarding, it all depends on what your opponent is playing. Sometimes discarding removal spells is correct. Sometimes discarding lands is correct. It really is all dependent of the hand you have, what you know about your opponents deck, and what spells are more important in the match up.
As for hands that you should keep, look for the hands that have plays on turn 1 and 2. You want to be casting spells as often as possible throughout the match. typically the best hands to keep are ones that have disruption on turn 1 and removal + card draw on 2. However, we don't always get to live in Christmas land. I usually look at a hand and try to figure out what my turn 1,2, and 3 plays might be so I can sculpt a game plan. If its hard to look past turn 2, make an informed decision on what you think could happen during your first 2 turns.
Blood moon on turn 3 is dependent on board state. If you can plausibly lock your opponent out on turn 3 while also allowing you to get ahead on board or stay ahead on board for the foreseeable future, it's a fine play. Typically though, I lean towards playing more impactful plays that allow me to get in better board position. Blood moon in this deck appears to be better in the late game. However, I am willing to concede that idea if someone else wants to correct me.
Edit: I also see blood moon as one of the worst cards in this deck and it feels more like a necessary evil rather than a useful implementation. The card does not trigger young pyro and also does not count towards Revelers cost reduction. It feels more like a card that helps out some bad match ups in the early game or shuts out opponents in the late game once you have board control. Just my opinion though.
Win vs Grixis shadows 2-0, win vs 4c Death shadows 2-1, wins vs Death and Taxes 2-1 and lose vs dredge 1-2
Things i notices playing the deck:
I win the final matchs vs 4C death shadow by casting a damnation that i put in the SB (gerry dont run it) for remove his 2x tarmogoyf and 1x shadow, if not i cant win that match
Loose vs dredge because dont run Anger of the gods in the SB and only 2x Nihil Spellbomb to graveyard hate, so a split of 1x damnation and 1x anger could be the right number
I still dont know why this deck dont run path to exile ??? i have some troubles for remove a gurmag angler from the board, only has 1 terminate and 1 dreadbore in the deck to remove big creatures
Sometimes i need a big win condition but only has tokens in the board, i run 1x Kalitas in the SB and was spectacular the games i sideboard it, vs aggro its auto-win, maybe i move 1x to maindeck
Also very few white producing lands for lingerings souls, in 2 games i have 2-3 lingerings souls in hand and CANT CAST IT also losee one game due to not can cast it from the hand just from the gy, i think im gonna put 1x goodless shrine in mainboard
Blood moon its a bad card in this deck, the games i draw it dont cast it just looting to draw better spells its a sideboard card for me
The deck its great but need more testing/adjusting the final cards
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
The reason that I am choosing Goblin Rabblemaster is actually for a couple of reasons. I debated using Gurmag Angler in that slot but he doesn't help the deck. It requires cards in the graveyard (which this deck already has problems with) and it sometimes eats the cards we want to save in there. The second reason is that Gurmag doesnt seem to be any faster than Rabblemaster when considering damage over a couple of turns. Rabblemaster is a little weaker with its 2/2 body but if it isn't interacted with, it can close out a game super quick.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation is a card that I wanted a second copy of. It can apply to the Burn match (I thought burn was particularly easy any ways). More importantly, The Storm Match is where we really want this card. It's going to allow us hold them off for a turn or 2 before they kill it and allow us to get our cracks in. I think combined with the rest of the discard and threats I am making to the deck, it will help lock that match up.
With my choices, I could be incredibly wrong and way off but based on the results that I saw last night, Storm felt unwinnable and the rest of the field felt like a normal midrange match up. Every round except for storm, I felt like I was in good position.
Please let me know what you guys think so I can tune the deck a little better for the future events.
The lack of a good clock is a problem, but when you have like 8-10 discard spells, a turn 2 or 3 pyro + turn 3 Lingering souls + a turn 5ish Reveler is a pretty good. Sidebaord out all removal if you can, you don't need it unless you can wipe the 1/1 Goblins. The important part is the insane amount of discard. Just don't keep hands with 0 discard, board in Collective Brutality if you aren't mainboarding.
As for not Running Path to Exile, the deck runs Dreadbore and Terminate, which are better removal because of no drawback. Against Death's Shadow, maybe putting in some graveyard hate is good, as Snapcaster is a huge threat in Death's Shadow alongside the delve creatures
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I was looking into building this deck (Pyro/Reveler Version) after seeing it play at the PT, and I was only curious if anyone was playing Abrade? Seems like a very versatile card that hits a few things (Chalice, Bridge, Wurmcoil etc.) that might give us some trouble. Not sure if it is worth the slot, or if it is inefficent in this style of list. Along the same lines, Is Arc Trail a card to consider? Flame Jab?
After reading up on some of the comments (and many, many pages) I'd also like to know why we aren't playing Harsh mentor vs Lantern? Not sure if he popped up earlier in the conversation, but I notice that he wasn't something actively in contention for slots. Just my .02. Let me know what y'all are thinking. Cheers!
Going off with PiF requires 6 mana from them. If you are discarding their hand, then the odds are pretty low they will have 2 rituals and a pif in hand, 4 lands in play, and a gifts or Empty in the grave/hand. So usually you are waiting for them to drop 5 or more lands. Thats like usually around turn 7+. If the Pif is in grave then it requires 7 mana.
Thats a LOT of time for you to get going or find a graveyard hate piece. I can't see Storm having a favorable matchup at all tbh. Even in game 1 has to be pretty close to 50/50
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Mardu is not a deck that has problems with too few removal, if anything, we would want a better clock. Thats why I advocate highly for Rabblemaster and Hazoret.