This is Ponza, a classic deck making its way in the world. A modern incarnation tempo land destruction. The name explains the deck well. Ponza Rotta Red, or simply “Ponza” as it would come be called, is named for a kind of like a calzone, but deep fried (“~the finest delicacy of Waukesha, Wisconsin.” -Kwal). The deck can be split up into different classes of cards crust (land), meat (creatures), red sauce (Land Destruction), and ramp (veggies). “A perfect balance.” The deck is notable for its simple game plan and varying deck construction.
"Impressive." —Chandra Nalaar
Destroy their lands, swing at their face! Possibly the oldest deck in Modern outside of burn, at least that looks anything like it’s original. No matter how long you’ve been playing magic you have memories of learning about land destruction shortly after you learn how to play. Some people hate the concept. Everyone else is reading this. Whether it was Sinkhole, Molten Rain or Wrecking Ball it made an impression. As Magic has evolved, so has the recipe for land destruction decks. This is where we are today.
The concept of Ponza, including the name, dates back to 1997 when Brian Kowal brought the deck to ProTour Rome. In the years following the deck posted many results and several incarnations. It gained the most fame from a January 2000 match between Jon Finkle (Vampiric Tutor control) and Chris Benafel (Ponza) in the finals US nationals. After rotation, the deck fell into relative obscurity, being hit hard by the loss of several key cards.
Late 2001 we do see the first incarnation of the deck that looks and plays like the Ponza we know today. While this list had minimal success it set the ultimate precedent for Ponza decks to follow.
Between 2001 and 2013 was a dark time in Ponza’s History, literally it became a black deck. The deck’s closest successors were a variety of control decks that hurt your opponent’s lands, including the ever notorious Smallpox Decks.
In 2014 Itou Manabu brought Ponza to GP Kobe 2014 and made it to the top 32 with the deck mostly as we see it today.
Matt Mendoza is generally credited for bringing the deck into Modern. Progressing from a list involving Tooth and Nailing into Xenagos and Emrakul into the deck we know and love today. Organically developing the deck all over again. “Great minds think alike.” This development took place in 2016 and came into its own during the Eldrazi Winter, or as Ponza liked to call it, “Snack Time.”
Today the deck enjoys relative obscurity. Maintaining enough top results to prove that the deck is competitive, but few enough that most opponents will not have had much playtime against it. Table of Contents
There goes the neighborhood.-Stone Rain
Ponza is a relatively flexible deck. You can change the portions, order it exactly how you want it.
But some things pineapple never go onPizza, Calzone, Ponza Rotta in the deck. We have less what you would call flex slots and more portion control, how much Ramp, LD, or how many Bombs can change heavily depending on the meta.
So-called because they help the deck grow big and strong. Once upon a time the deck was just meat and sauce, but we’ve grown up and learned that adding in a few vegetables helps with consistency.
You will typically want between 8-11 single mana ramp sources. Your overall curve will determine how important 2R turn 2 is, as well as ease with which you hit 6.
Utopia Sprawl (Run 4) : “It’s entirely possible that this deck exists because Sprawl is in the format.”-Matt M. The vast majority of the time, it should enchant a basic Forest. Enchanting a Stomping Ground with a Sprawl can be necessary, but it is not desirable. Post-Moon, Ground is no longer a forest and Sprawl falls off. Choosing your color is also important. Most of the time you will choose R and about a third of the time G. Each situation requires consideration, always make your choices off of the lands in your hand, what you want to play turn 2, and what effect Blood Moon will have on your plays. It is worth familiarizing yourself with the ways opponents can take advantage of Utopia Sprawl. Destroying the enchanted land is a 2 for 1, more commonly you will see Spreading Seas which causes the land to lose the forest typing, causing Sprawl to fall off. It is often wise to spread out which lands you enchant in order to hedge your bets against removal.
Arbor Elf (Run 4) : A solid G dork that turns into incredible ramp in conjunction with Utopia Sprawl. A turn 1 Arbor Elf followed by a turn 2 Sprawl is GGRR mana on turn 2 and we have just the cards that can best take advantage of this 4 mana.
Birds of Paradise (Run 0-2) : Mana dork numbers 5 & 6 these help with consistently seeing 3 mana on turn 2. Not anywhere near as good as Arbor Elf but the next best thing. You will typically play the Elf first to attempt the turn 2 4 play. However if you are confident that your opponent has removal for your turn 1 play drop the Birds first a bait. Most lists run 1 but some go up to 3.
Courser of Kruphix (Run 1-2) :Card filtering, life gain, efficient blocking. He does a lot of things. Better in aggro metas.
Sauce makes the dish. This is your interactivity with your opponent, ruin their game plan so you can play out yours fully.
You will want between 6-9 land destruction spells, 4 Blood Moon, and 0-5 removal spells. Some decks focus much heavier on control and denying their opponents lands. Others use Stone Rain as more of a tempo play putting their opponent behind.
Land Destruction
Stone Rain (Run 4) : The base line of our deck, literally the tomatoes. Use this to destroy an opponent’s land on turn 2. How often have you kept a hand with just enough land? In modern its all the time, now you can punish people for choosing to do so. Unlike other LD decks you will often hit basics to then follow up with a Blood Moon
Molten Rain (Run 2-4) : What you hope to hit with Bloodbraid Most lists run 3 as additional Stone Rain, the double red is very accomplishable turn 2 but will occasionally require paying for an untapped Stompy. For the most part, we are not trying to keep our opponents off lands entirely but rather disrupt their ability to play out their hand.
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss (Run 0-1) :Have you ever blown up a land and ramped on turn 2? It’s the best feeling in the world. This was recently a 4 of in every Ponza deck, with the unbanning of Bloodbraid Elf there has been a unilateral shift towards LD spells that she can hit. Notably fetches Forests, Forests, and Forests.
Primal Command (Run 0-2) : Lifegain when we need it, tutors up a bomb off the topdeck, slows their land plays, can deal with anything not a creature, maindeck tech against graveyard decks, this card pulls a lot of weight. Many lists run 1, some lists run 2.
Beast Within (Run 0-1) : Our all-purpose answer to anything, acts as additional LD or can knock out a planeswalker our opponent was depending on to stabilize. The drawback is real though, use caution, beasts ahead. Bloodbraid hitting this at the wrong time isn’t something you want to do.
Acidic Slime (Run 0-1) : Destroys a land and blocks well, but we generally want to be the aggressive ones. After putting an opponent back a few turns, possibly locked out, we go on the offensive. This guy is slow on the LD side and worthless on the aggressive side. Can be very good against Death’s Shadow though.
Crumble to Dust (Run 0-1) :An incredible card against many decks, all of whom we already have a good matchup against.
Blood Moon & Friend
Blood Moon (Run 3-4) :So important it gets it’s own category. Blood Moon is central to the deck’s plan. This is the card that turns our medium LD plan into a lock. Against some decks it’s a free win. Against others it can function as an Arcane Laboratory only allowing them to play one spell a turn with their colored mana. It is even often effective against other Blood Moon decks. Their mana base is carefully crafted to be able to play through a Moon, but if you pick off their non-red basics they can be locked out by their own cards. Occasionally it goes to the side-board but never doubt that it is great verses the majority of decks you will ever play against.
Trinisphere (Run 0-4) :A unique card with the ability to slow fast decks to a crawl. Better in our deck than anywhere else. We can play it on turn 2 which is a whole lot better than when it would be naturally played turn 3. Also, better when you can destroy an opponent’s lands below 3. Not all decks care very much about it so use your judgment, or better yet, your board.
Removal
Bonfire of the Damned (Run 0) :Once a major staple of the deck, but doesn’t play well with cascade.
Mizzium Mortars(Run 0-2) :4 Damage will kill many things in the format. When overloaded can act as an emergency wipe for a swarm late game. Generally, not favored by the majority of decks. Lists running Goblin Deep-Dwellers run 1-4.
Lightning Bolt (Run 0-4) : Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Once the premier removal of Modern is now relegated to a maybe. Solid versatile removal that can also hit an opponent’s face. Unfortunately, there are many common creatures in Modern that it won’t hit. Use your judgment and read the meta.
Sweltering Suns (Run 0-1) :Very similar to Anger, doesn’t exile creatures but it potentially better in the main deck in the event we don’t want a boardwipe. Decks running it run 1 main and 1-2 Anger in the board to supplement.
Anger of the Gods (Run 0) :Useful low cost boardwipe to clear early enemy creatures. Unfortunately hits our Dorks setting us back potentially several turns of mana. Important in the board for when you need swarm removal or a creature exiled. Sideboard card.
Firespout (Run 0) : While a cute way to dodge our creatures while wiping flyers it would have to be cast for GGG which isn’t exactly the easiest thing for us. The majority of the time it is worse than Sweltering Suns or Anger of the Gods. Does nothing off of cascade.
You can’t have a Ponza without meat, well you can, Adrian Sullivan ran Vegetarian Ponza in 1999. But aside from that Ponza runs Meat. These are your finishers, meant to close out the game quickly.
In today’s world, the bombs we run are the most resistant possible. Dodging removal and interference as best as possible. This is our most versatile section, almost every bomb has been replaced with a different creature in one list or another.
Staples
Bloodbraid Elf (Run 4) : Board presence and hopefully LD off the top. This is the perfect level of aggressive value that we needed.
Tireless Tracker(Run 3-4) : Has proven himself to be of immense value. Card draw and a respectable body make for a fearsome combination.
Inferno Titan (Run 2-3) : The fastest clock at 6 mana. Clears the way of blockers, pumps for extra damage, and can easily be a 2 turn kill. His weakness is Path, but having an ETB effect helps mitigate that flaw.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar(Run 0-1) :Holds back swarms well and gives you a versatile presence on the board.
Stormbreath Dragon(Run 0-1) :A strong card at weird spot in our curve. Some metas it is what we need others it isn’t. If you read Stormbreath and didn’t see the word Shroud, look again. It can’t be killed by Path, Push, or Bolt. It usually kills an onboard Lilliana of the Veil before she could edict. Its Monstrous ability will end games surprisingly often.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance (Run 1-2) :The kind of versatility we desperately want. ‘Draws’ cards, ramps, functional removal. She fits in the deck well, both on curve and filling in things we need.
Meta Flex Slots
Chandra, Flamecaller(Run 0-2) : Big Sis Chandra. Her jobs are to put pressure on your opponent, wipe the board, and maybe fill your hand.
Obstinate Baloth (Run 0-2) :Hedge your bets against aggro and burn by running him main. Strong against Lilliana decks. Usually occupies one of our flex slots with Thrun and Thragtusk. Adjust for meta accordingly. I've seen burn scoop to a turn 2 Baloth.
Thragtusk(Run 0-1) :Resilient, aggressive, and proactive. Thragtusk is a good card. His competition is stiff at 5 mana and most list typically skip him.
Thrun, The last Troll (Run 0-1) :Our stickiest threat. Once he resolves (he will), he should never be allowed to leave the field. Incredible against control, often functioning as The Abyss. He blocks well against more aggressive decks but doesn’t shine because he doesn’t progress our gameplan if he’s blocking. Generally in the sideboard at 1.
Scavenging Ooze (Run 0-2) :Maindeck graveyard hate, lifegain, and early body. Unfortunately, he doesn’t shine his brightest in our deck. We rarely are at 2 mana early game, preferring to cast more impactful spells. Late game there are some lot better things we could be doing. It’s overall ‘Good Card’ nature leads many players to run it anyway.
Chameleon Colossus (Run 0-1) :It’s a good card, providing good value. Usually you have better things to be doing.
Glory Bringer (Run 0-1) :It’s a good card, providing good value. Usually you have better things to be doing.
Huntmaster of the Fells (Run 0-2) :It’s a good card, providing good value. Usually you have better things to be doing.
Rogue Cards
Platinum Emperion & Madcap Experiment (Run 0 or 5) :Always run together. Having an Emperion on board is a near auto win against damage-based deck if they can’t remove it. The combo here is better than in any other deck because we stand a realistic chance of hardcasting Emperion should we draw it. Became quite popular for about a month but fewer and fewer list run him nowadays.
Goblin Dark Dwellers (Run 0-2) :Like Bloodbraid Elf but on the back end fallen out of favor since it cost 1 more. Follows up Stone Rain like a Snapcaster with an aggressive body. This card will change your deck more than any other threat. List running him often run more spot removal, add in a single Molten Rain. Generally working to capitalize on his value. Never forget that it has Menace.
Nissa, Vital Force (Run 0-1) :A card once considered that offers the deck more options. I’m not a big fan.
Hazoret the Fervent (Run 0-1) :This guy gives a beating and does everything we want. He falls awkwardly into the curve and man players feel he doesn’t play out well. Potentially the best card when we are in topdeck mode. How many you run depends on how many of the more specific meta cards you want in your main.
Samut, Voice of Dissent (Run 0-2) :A very aggressive creature, but that’s most all it is. I’d rather be running a 4th copy of Inferno Titan
Wurmcoil Engine(Run 0-1) :If you’ve ever played against this card you know how good it is. One of the big perks of this deck is its adaptability. Play what bombs you see as most relevant to what decks you will face. It has some popularity as a 1 of.
Rhonas the Indomitable (Run 0-2) :A follow up to the god plan, comes down early and stays relevant as long as you have another creature. Unfortunately, it plays poorly alone and makes a horrid topdeck.
The first thing your opponent will see and hopefully something they won’t have. Land.
All of your decisions here center around 2 cards. Blood Moon & Utopia Sprawl
We run mostly Fetches and Basics with only 3 slots dedicated to Duel Lands
Basics
Mountain (Run 1-2) : You need this from time to time untapped, painless, produces red without Blood Moon. It is so good they have been printing it since Alpha.
Forest(Run 8-9) : High interaction card, very key, run it.
Windswept Heath (Run 4) :You can run any Fetch that grabs green. Heath just happens to be the cheapest. If you’re feeling like it/already own them feel free to run Verdant Catacombs or Misty Rainforest to potentially throw your opponent off turn 1 about what you are running.
Duel Lands
Stomping Ground (Run 2-3) :This can get you both of your colors untapped. Don’t forget that you can grab it with Mwonvuli Acid-Moss. Run 3 if its your only dual, run 2 if you also run the following.
Cinder Glade (Run 0-1) :Very often can come into play untapped considering the amount of basics we are running. It’s bad on turn 2. Run 1.
Effect Lands
Kessig Wolf Run (Run 0-1) :Powerful with as much mana as we can make, can turn anything into a clock. Great when we are topdecking. Just a Mountain when Blood Moon is out. Most lists run 0.
So, you have your ingredients and you are ready to bake. Here are a few guidelines so you don’t get burnt.
This is probably the most likely configuration for the deck you will run into. Everything else is a derivative of.
In this section we can compile sideboard strategies for specific matchups. Due to the varying nature of the deck what to do can change greatly depending on your build. However, the same basic things stay good.
I hope that this part will be a community project, gathering play data and experience in how to react to each situation. Currently we have a lot of information individually. Now let’s gather it all together so that it can be of use to us.
One unique thing about Ponza is that basically every card can be cut depending on the situation. Some decks are reliant to LD, some Blood Moon does nothing against. Sometimes the deck is so fast you cut your big bombs for midrange ones. Essentially the only thing that you shouldn’t touch when boarding is the core mana base.
Now the trick is finesse. Knowing what to cut and what to add is good, but not overdoing it is more important. We don’t mind our opponents siding in hate for Blood Moon it dilutes their primary game plan, and we will win games that way. Don’t give them games for the same reason. Anything brought in should either cripple their deck or advance our game plan comparably to what was taken out for it.
The point of a sideboard is to shore up the decks weaknesses against common problem it will face in the current meta.
Let’s see what we’ve got.
Anti-Control
Boil or Choke :Both are incredibly damaging to UW Control, Grixis Control, and even Merfolk. Choke is the more powerful card, Boil is preferred due to its instant speed. Wait for them to tap out at the end of your turn and blow up all their lands. It’s not a mistake they will make twice. Watch out for any Islands you may have due to Speading Seas
Spellskite :Removal Catcher, the card. Can help keep your threats alive, I’d rather just run more threats.
Thrun, the Last Troll :Control’s nightmare. They can’t stop it from coming down and they can’t remove it once it’s there. Damnation works but you are far more likely to play against Supreme Verdict. I’ve seen UW Control block with a different Celestial Colonnade every turn to keep from dying.
Removal
Anger of the Gods :When you need it, this is the card to go for. Good against combo toolbox, swarm strategies, elf combo.
Beast Within :In the board to deal with an unexpected problem. Answers anything.
Dismember :Sometimes you have to kill a creature right now. Not favored, but it’s an option if you feel you need it.
Sudden Shock :Good at killing opposing mana dorks and interrupting creature based combo decks.
Artifact Hate
Fracturing Gust :We can drop this easily and early, problem solver.
Ancient Grudge :Solid 2 shot artifact removal, the favored option.
Faerie Macabre :Removal is better when your opponents don’t know it’s coming. Only removes 2 cards so less effective against storm but great against other combo.
Scavenging Ooze :When you know you need him, his versatility shines more.
Surgical Extraction :After you stop a problem once, this less you make sure it never happens again. Crippling against some decks.
Trinisphere
Trinisphere : A very strong card, if it’s not in your main deck it is most likely here. Don’t run with Madcap Experiment in your deck
This section will be filled in with community input, thank you for you patience as data comes in.
Tier ranking is going solely off of MtgSalvation’s Standards and and only are listed for organizational reasons.
*Currently we do not have many Major results. Until then Major Events will mean any tournament with results posted online involving more than 50 players.
*Currently using any results the deck gets according to MTGTop8. Many of our member decklist perform as well or better at similarly sized stores that do not post their lists online.
*If you would like your list featured please indicate so when you post it with Bold Blue Text so I can find it.
Survival is a constant competition from which both sides can benefit. - Evolutionary Escalation
Thank you for your contributions. This is still a very young primer and I would appreciate input and patience. Feel free to message me about technical errors, bad links, typos, and the like. If it is a large theoretical discussion on what belongs in the deck, that is a discussion for this thread.
Sources include but are not limited to: Matt Mendoza, Matt Ladwig, Brian David-Marshall, and our own Freakonature00 for posting the previous primer. And lastly to Jimmy's Grotto for inventing the Ponza Rotta.
*Updated as much as I can for now, will keep working on it. - 23/08/13
Introduction
Everyone knows this type of deck. Destroy or deny their mana, then take over the game when they're helpless. It's a classic that has been around since the start of MTG (Sinkhole, anyone?). Being a big fan of this fun archetype (even though it'll probably never be very competitive in any format), I really believe that this could work fairly well (even better here than Legacy) since Modern is a format with mostly very greedy land bases. And with more control decks surfacing in the meta, I think this is a good time to give this a(nother) shot.
Why play this?
As said above, there's a ton of greedy land bases around in modern these days. Attacking their land base shuts off their spells, and lets you take over the game. Against decks that play little lands, you have the advantage. It's also actually pretty fun to pilot and annoying to play against if it goes your way. And if you're sick of the usual aggro beatdown decks, this is a nice change than all the mainstream decks.
History (Dedicated/Partial Variants)
There have been many different variants and strategies for this type of deck but since Modern is a quick format filled with lots of aggressive and combo strategies, most of these are either too slow, or too meta-dependent. Here they are.
G/x/x Ponza
This is the classic. Play many mana dorks, ramping artifacts and all that, then head right into the land destruction and with green, Plow Under, then cast a fatty to seal the deal. The general plan of this variant is simple but it's too slow for Modern. I'm sure many of you have tried this. It just doesn't consistently work, especially when you don't manage to be able to deal with all the creatures attacking you.
U/X Tempo
Basically bouncing permanents (essentially lands) with cards like Boomerang but that doesn't really stop them. Some decks like Affinity and Zoo can work well at 2 mana so just bouncing lands wouldn't be enough. It'll only keep you alive for a little longer at best.
This is really fun but it's too fragile and dependent on it. It'll just break and fail without the artifact. And with so much artifact hate in the current meta... Great when it goes your way though.
Wildfire Domain
One of my favourite decks of the '05 period. Basic idea of this is to ramp yourself a little, clear small threats, counter problematic stuff, steal their lands with Annex and Dream Leash, and then play your fatty before throwing a big Wildfire to end it.
Blood Moon Control
Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon based decks are also forms of mana denial. Locking down your opponents by rendering their non-basics useless. Hurts most decks in Modern due to the greedy landbases. But recently, I don't see Blood Moon affecting many decks except maybe TRON. Most decks are starting to play around it now.
Modern Smallpoxl
Modern Pox basically relies on the very damaging Smallpox to gain advantage. The land destruction is a bonus in these decks but Smallpox is really something to abuse. Every 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 with it is huge.
*If there are any more variants that I have missed out, do let me know. But I'm sure I've mentioned it all; been exploring this archetype for modern since it was officially announced
Basic Idea
With such a greedy land base in modern now (and TRON), denying their (specific) colours will go a long way. Much more if you repeatedly do it. The deck aims to be consistent with its plans of destroying and denying (maybe stealing too) your opponent's lands; slowing them down long enough to take full control and finish the game.
The only way for this to work is to deny the opponent of their specific coloured mana while playing some disruption and removal early on. Instead of the most common and usual 'ramping into land destruction', we have to take a different approach because we just can't match the speed of Modern decks. The idea is to slow them down just enough so that we can set the game at our tempo and take over.
Card Choices
There's a ton of options for the decks. It all depends on what colours you decide to play. But generally, 3 colours will work best. But you'll generally have red (duh). As for white, blue, green and/or black, that's entirely up to you on how you want to build it. Personally, I tend to avoid playing green as 'dedicated' ramping strategies are very lackluster in modern. I used to play UR but am now currently playing RBW.
1RRMolten Rain: 3CC, bonus 2 damage on non-basics. Downside, double R.
1R/5RBoom//Bust: 2CC at best, works very well with Ghost Quarter and fetchlands. The Bust part of it pretty much ends the game once Frost Titan gets in play.
2RRRoiling Terrain: With all the fetchlands running around in currently popular decks, coupled with our land destruction, this could potentially be very damaging for just 4CC.
2RRSowing Salt: Great for removing multiple copies of shocklands.
2RRSeismic Spike: Essentially only costs 2CC but I'd very much rather have the bonus damage from Roiling Terrain.
2GBeast Within: The only card that makes me splash green. It's very versatile, in case of troublesome creatures, enchantments, artifacts or planeswalkers. And if there's none of those, works as a land destroyer too.
2RGWreak Havoc: A fine reason to splash green for its versatility in this meta full of artifacts. Playing it doesn't ruin our plan. Works as a desperate answer for a troublesome artifact.
4RRWildfire: Acts as both a great sweeper and land destruction. 4 lands will hurt us, but not as much as it hurts them with all the land stealing and destruction going on. Probably costs too much for us to handle without any acceleration though.
4GGPlow Under: Huge tempo right here. Resolving this would give you the huge advantage to take over the game.
BBSmallpox: Great card, damaging in all ways. Being able to 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 once or twice will give you a great advantage.
1USpreading Seas: This will work very well in the current state the format is in. There are so many multi-coloured decks in play now that enchanting a shockland is really going to hurt. Deny them of their colours. I believe this will only suck horribly vs. Merfolk though.
2UUAnnex: Steal a land, make it yours for a bit, then just Boom//Bust it away when you're done with it.
3RAvalance Riders: 4CC land destruction with a hasty body and a horrible echo cost. Better off playing Roiling Terrain for the guaranteed bonus damage at the same cost.
3RShivan Wumpus: Not exactly a land destruction card but it fits with the gameplan. Only gripe with it is that it'll draw all the removal and it'll beat the point of playing it. Maybe a sideboard tech at best.
8Sundering Titan: 8CC, but with a powerful effect. Second wincon? As 1-of at best.
1WLeonin Arbiter: Reason to splash white, again. Probably a sideboard card, but against all the fetchlands and tutors, it might be good in the main as well.
3RRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs: Good for taxing and creating many bodies with all the land destruction going on, but
it's too slow and conditional. Very good against the aggressive meta though.
4UUFrost Titan: Finisher which will primarily act as land denial by tapping down a land. Also very hard to remove with all the land destruction and taxing going on.
And then comes disruption, in the form of counters and removals.
Sweepers
1RPyroclasm: The cheapest sweeper to cast. Merfolk, Elves, Affinity all pretty much fold to it.
1RRSlagstorm: Sweeper to sweep the board early if you're getting swarmed before starting to take control.
1WWUSupreme Verdict: If you somehow need to play around counters.
3UUDevastation Tide: Another sweeper that's kinda perfect for the deck, but the miracle is a little clunky to rely on. Remand and Repeal might get it off during the opponent's turn. However, the anti-synergy with the enchantments could be bad. It makes Spreading Seas reusable though, for another cantrip.
3UUEvacuation: More synergy with the rest of the deck, as it does not bounce our enchantments but at 5CC, it might be too slow. It's great in a sense that after you bounce, they probably won't be able to play the creatures. But this over Wrath? Don't think so.
WPorphyry Nodes: Could work as a cheap removal. Not sure how effective it would be but in this aggressive creature format, it'll buy us some time. Total dead card against combo though, maybe a sideboard.
Spot Removal
XRRed Sun's Zenith: A finisher for the deck to use all the excess mana to end games. Picked this over Banefire and Devil's Play and Fireball for its possible (though unlikely) reuseability.
RLightning Bolt: The most efficient burn removal though it might be weak in case of little critters and whatever small fry that comes in our way. Burn to the face as a finisher works too.
WRLightning Helix: 2CMC burn/heal. Need to say more? The life gain is huge in the meta.
XURepeal: Versatile nonland permanent bouncer which works great early, but will be fine in the mid/late game too.
1USnapcaster Mage: Reusing a spell, whether removal or land destruction, would come in handy at the right time. The things you can do with this is pretty situational, seeing as you'll be flashing back sorceries most times. The surprise factor is still there though.
Planeswalkers
2WRAjani Vengeant: Another reason to splash white. Regularly taps their land down, and a Lightning Helix occasionally wouldn't hurt. His finisher does exactly what we want as well.
3UUTamiyo, the Moon Sage: Great for tapping down extra lands and as a second win-con too. Pretty good inclusion, actually.
3RChandra, the Firebrand: A fine guy to help with the plan. With low amounts of mana once we stabilise the board, the pinging for 1 can be useful taking out weaker creatures. But the duplicating ability is what makes it an insane choice. Double land destruction is really sick.
Locks
3Ensnaring Bridge: Really good card to stop attacks, but this would require another way to win.
2WGhostly Prison: Great reason to splash white, taxing them will buy us some time to stabilise before going on land destruction mode.
Counters
1URemand: Time walk, and chances are, they won't have enough lands to play the spell they just casted again the next turn.
1UMana Leak: As good as a hard counter in a deck like this. They'll never have the extra 3 mana to cast anything once you have things going your way.
USpell Pierce: Similar role as Mana Leak, cheaper too. Probably just a 1-2 of though.
1URune Snag: Another 2CC counter similar Mana Leak, but stronger in a longer game (which is what this deck plays).
XUSpell Burst: Great in the mid/late game as opponents will like have only enough mana to play 1-3CMC stuff if things go our way so we'll even have the mana for buyback-ing it.
[/CARD]
Notes
Here's just some general stuff I've noticed through my playtesting of various builds. Will update more as I notice more things.
As user Flaat has mentioned earlier on when I first started this, discard is a more reliable way of taking care of threats, being proactive, as compared to running counters and being reactive. But not a big discard suite, just a small one coupled with removals. They work a lot better than counters.
Aren't decks like this too slow? I think delver would be good in this type of deck, but you'd have to change some cards to accommodate it, like switching out spreading seas for boomerang and the sweepers for serum visions. Maybe grim lavamancer would be good too? what about 2-3 copies of reverberate?
Aren't decks like this too slow? I think delver would be good in this type of deck, but you'd have to change some cards to accommodate it, like switching out spreading seas for boomerang and the sweepers for serum visions. Maybe grim lavamancer would be good too? what about 2-3 copies of reverberate?
It's slow, but not too slow because of the early disruption/removal. Just need to survive long enough to get things going. The sweepers are very necessary cause of all early drops around; remember, the deck has no creatures for us to block with. Playing Delver of Secrets isn't what the deck wants to do. And it'll just draw all the removal. Not the deck for it. Might need some testing. As for Grim Lavamancer, that'll just change the whole deck altogether. The beauty of it is to not have any other creatures EXCEPT Frost Titan so any form of removal they draw early on is a dead card. They're transformational sideboard options at best.
Boomerang would just bounce the land, and they'll still be able to play it again. Granted, if it was a shockland, they'd either be slowed down or end up taking more damage, but that's not the aim. While this is somewhat a tempo deck, Boomerang only gives you that slight edge, by only delaying them a turn. Destroying lands will have them hope they draw lands to play and not just play the land we bounced. We're trying to stop them, not stall them. So destroying lands or Spreading Seas them is essential to deny them off their colours. Plus, it cantrips.
Reverberate is a horrible topdeck cause it doesn't do anything on its own. Will be better off without it.
Have you tried Wildfire? It's the basis of a few completely different deck archetypes, but still a LD spell nonetheless. Artifact ramp and planeswalkers are its BFFs.
SB wise, if you play red you can make space for Blood Moon.
Have you tried Wildfire? It's the basis of a few completely different deck archetypes, but still a LD spell nonetheless. Artifact ramp and planeswalkers are its BFFs.
SB wise, if you play red you can make space for Blood Moon.
Wildfire is great but it's probably not for this deck cause I believe Boom // Bust will fill in that same role when you draw it late. Once a Frost Titan hits, land a Bust and you're good to go. Pretty much the same idea. Although Wildfire does have that bonus sweeping effect which could come in handy... Maybe a 1/2-of but that'll greatly increase the curve which is quite steep as it is.
I really feel like you need better / more win conditions. What's going to stop me from Hide/Seek (Seek)ing away or Pathing your Frost Giants when you tap out to drop LD?
When it gets to the point where I do cast Frost Titan, the board will be in my favour if I'm not already dead. The titan on its own can keep 1 land tapped so even cheap removal will be costly considering the amount of land destruction.
As for Hide // Seek and the like, well, I have to say that I don't have answers for that, but it's something consider before tapping out I guess. These cards are partly the reason why I've included some counters like Remands. But yeah, it'll hurt getting hit by that.
The deck's already very dense as it is, I'm really not sure about adding other win conditions. I do get where you're coming from but this really needs more extensive testing as of now.
needs more magnivore, that guy really owns in decks like this. late game 10/10 haste for 4 mana really steals games away.
Also 4 darksteel citadel with boom//bust is a must. the chance on t2 stone rain is very nice
Magnivore is great for LD decks, yeah but cause it lacks creatures, and compared to Frost Titan which is harder to deal with, Magnivore will immediately draw whatever 'dead' removal the opponent would have in hand. I'd like to avoid that and have just that pseudo card advantage by letting them hold onto 'dead' removals.
Hadn't thought of the Darksteel Citadels, nice. Should be an auto-include indeed.
P.S. Thinking of removing Annex totally for Molten Rain. With the high land count, I'd rather have a cheaper land destruction spell which could be potential damage than steal a land. Though, in Annex's defense, it'll work great against other decks that play Darksteel Citadel since we can't destroy that. Plus, with the addition of Darksteel Citadel in the deck, Ghost Quarter could be used as a fetch too (for more synergy with Boom // Bust). Thoughts?
EDIT: Moved Annex to sideboard instead in favour of Molten Rain to lower the average CMC of the deck. Dropped Roiling Terrain to 2 as well for the same reason. Added a singleton Red Sun's Zenith and removed the 4th Lightning Bolt to make use of the excess mana in case of a dragged game. And it's reuseable as well, though the chances are slim, more of a finisher than anything.
Please remember that Pithing Needle is useable on Fetch Lands. Since you're not running mana accels this card would be great in helping shut down your oppenents early game.
I tried running LD with a :symg::symr::symw: mana base. I gave up on the idea because of the meta when Modern was first introduced. With the new banned list and meta being rediscovered, this is a good time to look into a LD deck. Best of luck!
Please remember that Pithing Needle is useable on Fetch Lands. Since you're not running mana accels this card would be great in helping shut down your oppenents early game.
I tried running LD with a :symg::symr::symw: mana base. I gave up on the idea because of the meta when Modern was first introduced. With the new banned list and meta being rediscovered, this is a good time to look into a LD deck. Best of luck!
Yeah, that's great actually. But probably just a sideboard card, I'd rather they do fetch something, lose 1 life (possibly 3), then I destroy it or cast Spreading Seas on it. Plus, if they've fetched, and I keep destroying their lands, they'll possibly run out of lands even faster.
Also yeah, cause of the new decks emerging and modern changing here and there, I'm having good vibes for this.
If you're doing only then you might want to look into Planeswalkers or maybe Ball Lightning.
Adding just one more color would truly be benefical to your deck. I would consider for Ajani Goldmane or Ajani Vengeant.
White would also bring on more options for creatures. Low casting cost creatures at that.
Playing something like Ball Lightning makes me feel like trying to be RDW as well, and it'll be better if we stray away from that. This isn't sligh, and I think we should stay away from trying to be sligh. Decks that try to be too many things usually don't work out very well. From my experience, at least. Playing creatures, unless they're hard to remove or is beneficial the moment they hit, goes against what I believe we're trying to do. Blanking out pretty much all their removals is quite important and gives you that pseudo card advantage.
The only Planeswalker I found that COULD be useful for the deck are the two already listed in card choices. Chandra, the Firebrand and Ajani Vengeant. But I haven't found that many good reasons to splash white though, so maybe I'm missing something.
I've been pondering on what I can do with so much mana, and I guess Snapcaster Mage would be a fine addition. It has a decent body which could work well with my used spells. Most times during testing, I end up with a lot of mana and nothing to do so maybe it'll be useful to have a few. A playset? I'm skeptical though. Cause let's say, if I had a Snapcaster instead of a Stone Rain in hand on turn 3, then I'll be waiting for some use of the Snapcaster instead of outright destroying a land on that turn and that might/could slow me down. This really needs testing. But I love the idea of including him.
@CHEESY_BARF: I find that running blue gives you more ways to handle stuff than just going for removal aggressively and destroying lands. For example, Spreading Seas will probably colour screw them; there aren't many blue decks around and countermagic will work better at removing early threats than many sweepers. What if he plays something big? A well-fed goyf on the field will be hard to remove with just burns. So countering it would be best, if not outright destroying it (which warrants my inclusion of Beast Within, even though just a singleton).
I've tried going that route, but it's usually only effective against the aggressive creature decks cause of all the burn removal. It'll totally just fold to combo though, especially when you don't have a Blood Moon out by turn 3. And that's if you're lucky. Sometimes, getting it out turn 3 wouldn't matter anyway, which is why I don't wanna be too reliant on it. While I've said that I don't see the Mono-Red LD take on this making it far, do let us know how your testing goes. In any case, considering your deck's gameplan with red, do check out the Moon's Essence primer cause they're discussing exactly what you're trying to do. I'm sure your input will be valuable to those working there.
@CHEESY_BARF: I find that running blue gives you more ways to handle stuff than just going for removal aggressive and destroying lands. For example, Spreading Seas will probably colour screw them; there aren't many blue decks around and countermagic will work better at removing early threats than many sweepers. What if he plays something big? A well-fed goyf on the field will be hard to remove with just burns. So countering it would be best, if not outright destroying it (which warrants my inclusion of Beast Within, even though just a singleton).
I've tried going that route, but it's usually only effective against the aggressive creature decks cause of all the burn removal. It'll totally just fold to combo though, especially when you don't have a Blood Moon out by turn 3. And that's if you're lucky. Sometimes, getting it out turn 3 wouldn't matter anyway, which is why I don't wanna be too reliant on it. While I've said that I don't see the Mono-Red LD take on this making it far, do let us know how your testing goes. In any case, considering your deck's gameplan with red, do check out the Moon's Essence primer cause they're discussing exactly what you're trying to do. I'm sure your input will be valuable to those working there.
Thanks for the link, I had no idea that there were decks centered around Blood Moon, I always figured it was more of a sideboard card.
You could probably splash any color in a heavy red LD deck, although I agree that white is probably the weakest. My original thought (before trying mono red) was to splash black for Terminate, maybe even 1 or 2 Wrecking Ball or Blightning. So many choices. Anyway, I'm off work this week so me and some friends will have time to playtest. This Thursday I'm going to a Modern tournament, so probably Friday I'll post back with my final decklist and results.
has anyone tried out Shivan Wumpus as a beater/ld card for this deck. 4 mana 6/6 trample is nice. the only thing is that he is quite bad when your opponents are winning the creature race.
id play this deck B/R
4 blackmail ( only discard in modern to kill lands)
4 rise//fall ( modern hymn that works nicely with blackmail) or inquisition of koizilek
4 terminate or cruel eddict
2 consuming vapors
4 boom// bust
2 bonfire of the damned ( not sure about this one, maybe Terminus could work well in this deck aswell but then it needs 3colors)
4 stone rain
4 magnivore
3 Shivan Wumpus
the plan would be to destroy anything low mana in your opponents hand the first few turns. then start blowing up lands and killing creatures that might have come through.
the issue I have with the blue version is that it seems weak against storm combo and burn, basicly decks that can operate on 2 mana as long as there hand stays untouched.
What do you guys think?
btw: Where is the "weak wildfire" card
3rr deals 3 damage to all creatures each player sac 3 lands... that would be awsome
has anyone tried out Shivan Wumpus as a beater/ld card for this deck. 4 mana 6/6 trample is nice. the only thing is that he is quite bad when your opponents are winning the creature race.
id play this deck B/R
4 blackmail ( only discard in modern to kill lands)
4 rise//fall ( modern hymn that works nicely with blackmail) or inquisition of koizilek
4 terminate or cruel eddict
2 consuming vapors
4 boom// bust
2 bonfire of the damned ( not sure about this one, maybe Terminus could work well in this deck aswell but then it needs 3colors)
4 stone rain
4 magnivore
3 Shivan Wumpus
the plan would be to destroy anything low mana in your opponents hand the first few turns. then start blowing up lands and killing creatures that might have come through.
the issue I have with the blue version is that it seems weak against storm combo and burn, basicly decks that can operate on 2 mana as long as there hand stays untouched.
What do you guys think?
btw: Where is the "weak wildfire" card
3rr deals 3 damage to all creatures each player sac 3 lands... that would be awsome
Shivan Wumpus... This kind of deck is the only home for it to be playable but it's gonna need a lot of testing. I'm a little skeptical.
I like the BR take on it and have thought of it (though not much) but I prefer blue for the counter magic and draw although being able to get their lands from hand could hurt a lot too but Blackmail is giving them a choice. Once they know what we're playing, lands will never be revealed. I don't like it since discard lets them decide and if we're talking about choosing what to discard for them, Thoughtseize and Rise // Fall, they only target nonland stuff. Once they know what they're up against, they'll choose to keep lands and go topdeck mode. So unless we're playing very heavy discard (which will make the LD plan take a backseat) I don't think this will work as well as blue.
I'd rather have them going 'topdeck' mode for lands, even with their hand full. I'm leaning more towards blue for now even with its weak matchups. Against Burn, I'd just aggressively mulligan for a Spreading Seas; that'll keep us alive long enough to stabilise and they don't play that many lands too. For storm, I'm not sure though but it's probably our weakest matchup.
I'm thinking though, if we play some black disruption/discard as part of a transformational sideboard plan...
Isochron Scepter combined with boomerang...if it comes out on turn 2 on the play you can ensure they never get off two land. However many lands they have when you stick it, that's the maximum they'll have until they remove it.
Isochorn Scepter doesn't and probaly won't have much synergy with the type of deck since the average CMC is 3 with all the usual LD. And without it, Boomerang is very subpar at its job of denying them off lands as they'll definitely only be set a turn back, rather than possibly many turns. We're playing a long game and just buying a turn isn't gonna be enough. I'd rather slow them down with removal/counter magic early before starting to destroy lands.
Yeah, the scepter can do that, great. But to make it work 'consistently' enough to warrant their inclusion, gotta have 4 of each. That's 8 slots gone for something so gimmicky and everyone has artifact hate in their 75. Not to mention that having other 2 CMC spells to make the scepter have other targets is essential for it to not be a dead draw. It's also a 2-for-1 on yourself if it gets removed right after you play it. And if it's just a 1-2 of, might as well not play it cause you want it early for it to be best. You're probably already winning if you survive that long.
Well, that's just my opinion. Avoiding bouncing lands instead of destroying; too much risk in the 'already very risky' gameplan.
Were I to play LD, I'd play Naya so I could run Knight of the Reliquary and Bloodbraid Elf. Nothing beats cascading into Boom/Bust and casting Bust for free.
Then you have Acidic Slime, which you can flicker with Restoration Angel. And if you're playing Angel, you can have Kiki in the sideboard for a surprise win.
*Updated as much as I can for now, will keep working on it. - 23/08/13
Introduction
Everyone knows this type of deck. Destroy or deny their mana, then take over the game when they're helpless. It's a classic that has been around since the start of MTG (Sinkhole, anyone?). Being a big fan of this fun archetype (even though it'll probably never be very competitive in any format), I really believe that this could work fairly well (even better here than Legacy) since Modern is a format with mostly very greedy land bases. And with more control decks surfacing in the meta, I think this is a good time to give this a(nother) shot.
Why play this?
As said above, there's a ton of greedy land bases around in modern these days. Attacking their land base shuts off their spells, and lets you take over the game. Against decks that play little lands, you have the advantage. It's also actually pretty fun to pilot and annoying to play against if it goes your way. And if you're sick of the usual aggro beatdown decks, this is a nice change than all the mainstream decks.
History (Dedicated/Partial Variants)
There have been many different variants and strategies for this type of deck but since Modern is a quick format filled with lots of aggressive and combo strategies, most of these are either too slow, or too meta-dependent. Here they are.
G/x/x Ponza
This is the classic. Play many mana dorks, ramping artifacts and all that, then head right into the land destruction and with green, Plow Under, then cast a fatty to seal the deal. The general plan of this variant is simple but it's too slow for Modern. I'm sure many of you have tried this. It just doesn't consistently work, especially when you don't manage to be able to deal with all the creatures attacking you.
U/X Tempo
Basically bouncing permanents (essentially lands) with cards like Boomerang but that doesn't really stop them. Some decks like Affinity and Zoo can work well at 2 mana so just bouncing lands wouldn't be enough. It'll only keep you alive for a little longer at best.
Liquidmetal Coating Combo
This is really fun but it's too fragile and dependent on it. It'll just break and fail without the artifact. And with so much artifact hate in the current meta... Great when it goes your way though.
Wildfire Domain
One of my favourite decks of the '05 period. Basic idea of this is to ramp yourself a little, clear small threats, counter problematic stuff, steal their lands with Annex and Dream Leash, and then play your fatty before throwing a big Wildfire to end it.
Blood Moon Control
Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon based decks are also forms of mana denial. Locking down your opponents by rendering their non-basics useless. Hurts most decks in Modern due to the greedy landbases. But recently, I don't see Blood Moon affecting many decks except maybe TRON. Most decks are starting to play around it now.
Modern Smallpoxl
Modern Pox basically relies on the very damaging Smallpox to gain advantage. The land destruction is a bonus in these decks but Smallpox is really something to abuse. Every 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 with it is huge.
*If there are any more variants that I have missed out, do let me know. But I'm sure I've mentioned it all; been exploring this archetype for modern since it was officially announced
Basic Idea
With such a greedy land base in modern now (and TRON), denying their (specific) colours will go a long way. Much more if you repeatedly do it. The deck aims to be consistent with its plans of destroying and denying (maybe stealing too) your opponent's lands; slowing them down long enough to take full control and finish the game.
The only way for this to work is to deny the opponent of their specific coloured mana while playing some disruption and removal early on. Instead of the most common and usual 'ramping into land destruction', we have to take a different approach because we just can't match the speed of Modern decks. The idea is to slow them down just enough so that we can set the game at our tempo and take over.
Card Choices
There's a ton of options for the decks. It all depends on what colours you decide to play. But generally, 3 colours will work best. But you'll generally have red (duh). As for white, blue, green and/or black, that's entirely up to you on how you want to build it. Personally, I tend to avoid playing green as 'dedicated' ramping strategies are very lackluster in modern. I used to play UR but am now currently playing RBW.
Non-Creature Spells
2R Stone Rain: 3CC
[MANA]1BB[/MANA/ Rain of Tears: Another 3CC
1RR Molten Rain: 3CC, bonus 2 damage on non-basics. Downside, double R.
1R/5R Boom//Bust: 2CC at best, works very well with Ghost Quarter and fetchlands. The Bust part of it pretty much ends the game once Frost Titan gets in play.
2RR Roiling Terrain: With all the fetchlands running around in currently popular decks, coupled with our land destruction, this could potentially be very damaging for just 4CC.
2RR Sowing Salt: Great for removing multiple copies of shocklands.
2RR Seismic Spike: Essentially only costs 2CC but I'd very much rather have the bonus damage from Roiling Terrain.
2G Beast Within: The only card that makes me splash green. It's very versatile, in case of troublesome creatures, enchantments, artifacts or planeswalkers. And if there's none of those, works as a land destroyer too.
2RG Wreak Havoc: A fine reason to splash green for its versatility in this meta full of artifacts. Playing it doesn't ruin our plan. Works as a desperate answer for a troublesome artifact.
2GG Mwonvuli Acid-Moss: Destroys a land and ramps you too.
4RR Wildfire: Acts as both a great sweeper and land destruction. 4 lands will hurt us, but not as much as it hurts them with all the land stealing and destruction going on. Probably costs too much for us to handle without any acceleration though.
4GG Plow Under: Huge tempo right here. Resolving this would give you the huge advantage to take over the game.
BB Smallpox: Great card, damaging in all ways. Being able to 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 once or twice will give you a great advantage.
1U Spreading Seas: This will work very well in the current state the format is in. There are so many multi-coloured decks in play now that enchanting a shockland is really going to hurt. Deny them of their colours. I believe this will only suck horribly vs. Merfolk though.
2UU Annex: Steal a land, make it yours for a bit, then just Boom//Bust it away when you're done with it.
3UU Dream Leash: Also to steal a land and profit.
Creature Spells
1BB/1RR Fulminator Mage: A "Molten Rain" with a 2/2 body. Could come in handy as a blocker.
3GG Acidic Slime:
3R Avalance Riders: 4CC land destruction with a hasty body and a horrible echo cost. Better off playing Roiling Terrain for the guaranteed bonus damage at the same cost.
3R Shivan Wumpus: Not exactly a land destruction card but it fits with the gameplan. Only gripe with it is that it'll draw all the removal and it'll beat the point of playing it. Maybe a sideboard tech at best.
8 Sundering Titan: 8CC, but with a powerful effect. Second wincon? As 1-of at best.
1W Leonin Arbiter: Reason to splash white, again. Probably a sideboard card, but against all the fetchlands and tutors, it might be good in the main as well.
3RR Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs: Good for taxing and creating many bodies with all the land destruction going on, but
it's too slow and conditional. Very good against the aggressive meta though.
4UU Frost Titan: Finisher which will primarily act as land denial by tapping down a land. Also very hard to remove with all the land destruction and taxing going on.
And then comes disruption, in the form of counters and removals.
Sweepers
1R Pyroclasm: The cheapest sweeper to cast. Merfolk, Elves, Affinity all pretty much fold to it.
1RR Slagstorm: Sweeper to sweep the board early if you're getting swarmed before starting to take control.
2WW Wrath of God: Self-explanatory.
2BB Damnation: Self-explanatory.
1WWU Supreme Verdict: If you somehow need to play around counters.
3UU Devastation Tide: Another sweeper that's kinda perfect for the deck, but the miracle is a little clunky to rely on. Remand and Repeal might get it off during the opponent's turn. However, the anti-synergy with the enchantments could be bad. It makes Spreading Seas reusable though, for another cantrip.
3UU Evacuation: More synergy with the rest of the deck, as it does not bounce our enchantments but at 5CC, it might be too slow. It's great in a sense that after you bounce, they probably won't be able to play the creatures. But this over Wrath? Don't think so.
W Porphyry Nodes: Could work as a cheap removal. Not sure how effective it would be but in this aggressive creature format, it'll buy us some time. Total dead card against combo though, maybe a sideboard.
Spot Removal
XR Red Sun's Zenith: A finisher for the deck to use all the excess mana to end games. Picked this over Banefire and Devil's Play and Fireball for its possible (though unlikely) reuseability.
R Lightning Bolt: The most efficient burn removal though it might be weak in case of little critters and whatever small fry that comes in our way. Burn to the face as a finisher works too.
WR Lightning Helix: 2CMC burn/heal. Need to say more? The life gain is huge in the meta.
XU Repeal: Versatile nonland permanent bouncer which works great early, but will be fine in the mid/late game too.
BG Abrupt Decay: Best removal in the format.
1BG Maelstorm Pulse: Great for multiple copies.
Discard
B Blackmail: The only discard spell that could catch a land.
B Thoughtseize: Clearly the best choice, but in my testing, the life loss is sometimes very hurtful.
B Inquisition of Kozilek: Cheaper alternative to Thoughtseize which actually works very well.
B Duress: Good and cheap against control/combo.
Creatures
1U Snapcaster Mage: Reusing a spell, whether removal or land destruction, would come in handy at the right time. The things you can do with this is pretty situational, seeing as you'll be flashing back sorceries most times. The surprise factor is still there though.
Planeswalkers
2WR Ajani Vengeant: Another reason to splash white. Regularly taps their land down, and a Lightning Helix occasionally wouldn't hurt. His finisher does exactly what we want as well.
3UU Tamiyo, the Moon Sage: Great for tapping down extra lands and as a second win-con too. Pretty good inclusion, actually.
1BB Liliana of the Veil: Great for controlling the board and game.
3R Chandra, the Firebrand: A fine guy to help with the plan. With low amounts of mana once we stabilise the board, the pinging for 1 can be useful taking out weaker creatures. But the duplicating ability is what makes it an insane choice. Double land destruction is really sick.
Locks
3 Ensnaring Bridge: Really good card to stop attacks, but this would require another way to win.
2W Ghostly Prison: Great reason to splash white, taxing them will buy us some time to stabilise before going on land destruction mode.
Counters
1U Remand: Time walk, and chances are, they won't have enough lands to play the spell they just casted again the next turn.
1U Mana Leak: As good as a hard counter in a deck like this. They'll never have the extra 3 mana to cast anything once you have things going your way.
U Spell Pierce: Similar role as Mana Leak, cheaper too. Probably just a 1-2 of though.
1U Rune Snag: Another 2CC counter similar Mana Leak, but stronger in a longer game (which is what this deck plays).
XU Spell Burst: Great in the mid/late game as opponents will like have only enough mana to play 1-3CMC stuff if things go our way so we'll even have the mana for buyback-ing it.
[/CARD]
Notes
Here's just some general stuff I've noticed through my playtesting of various builds. Will update more as I notice more things.
As user Flaat has mentioned earlier on when I first started this, discard is a more reliable way of taking care of threats, being proactive, as compared to running counters and being reactive. But not a big discard suite, just a small one coupled with removals. They work a lot better than counters.
Decklist
My current testing list:
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Blood Crypt
Creatures [1]
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Others [26]
1 Batterskull
2 Wrath of God
3 Inquisiton of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
4 Boom/Bust
4 Smallpox
1 Wrath of God
3 Pyroclasm
2 Wear/Tear
4 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Pithing Needle
Concluding Notes
P.S. The 'card choices' section will be revised as and when possible for me to do so. Probably will need to reorder and tidy up too.
It's slow, but not too slow because of the early disruption/removal. Just need to survive long enough to get things going. The sweepers are very necessary cause of all early drops around; remember, the deck has no creatures for us to block with. Playing Delver of Secrets isn't what the deck wants to do. And it'll just draw all the removal. Not the deck for it. Might need some testing. As for Grim Lavamancer, that'll just change the whole deck altogether. The beauty of it is to not have any other creatures EXCEPT Frost Titan so any form of removal they draw early on is a dead card. They're transformational sideboard options at best.
Boomerang would just bounce the land, and they'll still be able to play it again. Granted, if it was a shockland, they'd either be slowed down or end up taking more damage, but that's not the aim. While this is somewhat a tempo deck, Boomerang only gives you that slight edge, by only delaying them a turn. Destroying lands will have them hope they draw lands to play and not just play the land we bounced. We're trying to stop them, not stall them. So destroying lands or Spreading Seas them is essential to deny them off their colours. Plus, it cantrips.
Reverberate is a horrible topdeck cause it doesn't do anything on its own. Will be better off without it.
Have you tried Wildfire? It's the basis of a few completely different deck archetypes, but still a LD spell nonetheless. Artifact ramp and planeswalkers are its BFFs.
SB wise, if you play red you can make space for Blood Moon.
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Big Johnny.
Wildfire is great but it's probably not for this deck cause I believe Boom // Bust will fill in that same role when you draw it late. Once a Frost Titan hits, land a Bust and you're good to go. Pretty much the same idea. Although Wildfire does have that bonus sweeping effect which could come in handy... Maybe a 1/2-of but that'll greatly increase the curve which is quite steep as it is.
Might up the land count to 25.
When it gets to the point where I do cast Frost Titan, the board will be in my favour if I'm not already dead. The titan on its own can keep 1 land tapped so even cheap removal will be costly considering the amount of land destruction.
As for Hide // Seek and the like, well, I have to say that I don't have answers for that, but it's something consider before tapping out I guess. These cards are partly the reason why I've included some counters like Remands. But yeah, it'll hurt getting hit by that.
The deck's already very dense as it is, I'm really not sure about adding other win conditions. I do get where you're coming from but this really needs more extensive testing as of now.
Magnivore is great for LD decks, yeah but cause it lacks creatures, and compared to Frost Titan which is harder to deal with, Magnivore will immediately draw whatever 'dead' removal the opponent would have in hand. I'd like to avoid that and have just that pseudo card advantage by letting them hold onto 'dead' removals.
Hadn't thought of the Darksteel Citadels, nice. Should be an auto-include indeed.
P.S. Thinking of removing Annex totally for Molten Rain. With the high land count, I'd rather have a cheaper land destruction spell which could be potential damage than steal a land. Though, in Annex's defense, it'll work great against other decks that play Darksteel Citadel since we can't destroy that. Plus, with the addition of Darksteel Citadel in the deck, Ghost Quarter could be used as a fetch too (for more synergy with Boom // Bust). Thoughts?
EDIT: Moved Annex to sideboard instead in favour of Molten Rain to lower the average CMC of the deck. Dropped Roiling Terrain to 2 as well for the same reason. Added a singleton Red Sun's Zenith and removed the 4th Lightning Bolt to make use of the excess mana in case of a dragged game. And it's reuseable as well, though the chances are slim, more of a finisher than anything.
I tried running LD with a :symg::symr::symw: mana base. I gave up on the idea because of the meta when Modern was first introduced. With the new banned list and meta being rediscovered, this is a good time to look into a LD deck. Best of luck!
Adding just one more color would truly be benefical to your deck. I would consider
White would also bring on more options for creatures. Low casting cost creatures at that.
Yeah, that's great actually. But probably just a sideboard card, I'd rather they do fetch something, lose 1 life (possibly 3), then I destroy it or cast Spreading Seas on it. Plus, if they've fetched, and I keep destroying their lands, they'll possibly run out of lands even faster.
Also yeah, cause of the new decks emerging and modern changing here and there, I'm having good vibes for this.
Playing something like Ball Lightning makes me feel like trying to be RDW as well, and it'll be better if we stray away from that. This isn't sligh, and I think we should stay away from trying to be sligh. Decks that try to be too many things usually don't work out very well. From my experience, at least. Playing creatures, unless they're hard to remove or is beneficial the moment they hit, goes against what I believe we're trying to do. Blanking out pretty much all their removals is quite important and gives you that pseudo card advantage.
The only Planeswalker I found that COULD be useful for the deck are the two already listed in card choices. Chandra, the Firebrand and Ajani Vengeant. But I haven't found that many good reasons to splash white though, so maybe I'm missing something.
I've been pondering on what I can do with so much mana, and I guess Snapcaster Mage would be a fine addition. It has a decent body which could work well with my used spells. Most times during testing, I end up with a lot of mana and nothing to do so maybe it'll be useful to have a few. A playset? I'm skeptical though. Cause let's say, if I had a Snapcaster instead of a Stone Rain in hand on turn 3, then I'll be waiting for some use of the Snapcaster instead of outright destroying a land on that turn and that might/could slow me down. This really needs testing. But I love the idea of including him.
@CHEESY_BARF: I find that running blue gives you more ways to handle stuff than just going for removal aggressively and destroying lands. For example, Spreading Seas will probably colour screw them; there aren't many blue decks around and countermagic will work better at removing early threats than many sweepers. What if he plays something big? A well-fed goyf on the field will be hard to remove with just burns. So countering it would be best, if not outright destroying it (which warrants my inclusion of Beast Within, even though just a singleton).
I've tried going that route, but it's usually only effective against the aggressive creature decks cause of all the burn removal. It'll totally just fold to combo though, especially when you don't have a Blood Moon out by turn 3. And that's if you're lucky. Sometimes, getting it out turn 3 wouldn't matter anyway, which is why I don't wanna be too reliant on it. While I've said that I don't see the Mono-Red LD take on this making it far, do let us know how your testing goes. In any case, considering your deck's gameplan with red, do check out the Moon's Essence primer cause they're discussing exactly what you're trying to do. I'm sure your input will be valuable to those working there.
Thanks for the link, I had no idea that there were decks centered around Blood Moon, I always figured it was more of a sideboard card.
You could probably splash any color in a heavy red LD deck, although I agree that white is probably the weakest. My original thought (before trying mono red) was to splash black for Terminate, maybe even 1 or 2 Wrecking Ball or Blightning. So many choices. Anyway, I'm off work this week so me and some friends will have time to playtest. This Thursday I'm going to a Modern tournament, so probably Friday I'll post back with my final decklist and results.
Maybe Smallpox?
Shivan Wumpus... This kind of deck is the only home for it to be playable but it's gonna need a lot of testing. I'm a little skeptical.
I like the BR take on it and have thought of it (though not much) but I prefer blue for the counter magic and draw although being able to get their lands from hand could hurt a lot too but Blackmail is giving them a choice. Once they know what we're playing, lands will never be revealed. I don't like it since discard lets them decide and if we're talking about choosing what to discard for them, Thoughtseize and Rise // Fall, they only target nonland stuff. Once they know what they're up against, they'll choose to keep lands and go topdeck mode. So unless we're playing very heavy discard (which will make the LD plan take a backseat) I don't think this will work as well as blue.
I'd rather have them going 'topdeck' mode for lands, even with their hand full. I'm leaning more towards blue for now even with its weak matchups. Against Burn, I'd just aggressively mulligan for a Spreading Seas; that'll keep us alive long enough to stabilise and they don't play that many lands too. For storm, I'm not sure though but it's probably our weakest matchup.
I'm thinking though, if we play some black disruption/discard as part of a transformational sideboard plan...
Isochorn Scepter doesn't and probaly won't have much synergy with the type of deck since the average CMC is 3 with all the usual LD. And without it, Boomerang is very subpar at its job of denying them off lands as they'll definitely only be set a turn back, rather than possibly many turns. We're playing a long game and just buying a turn isn't gonna be enough. I'd rather slow them down with removal/counter magic early before starting to destroy lands.
Yeah, the scepter can do that, great. But to make it work 'consistently' enough to warrant their inclusion, gotta have 4 of each. That's 8 slots gone for something so gimmicky and everyone has artifact hate in their 75. Not to mention that having other 2 CMC spells to make the scepter have other targets is essential for it to not be a dead draw. It's also a 2-for-1 on yourself if it gets removed right after you play it. And if it's just a 1-2 of, might as well not play it cause you want it early for it to be best. You're probably already winning if you survive that long.
Well, that's just my opinion. Avoiding bouncing lands instead of destroying; too much risk in the 'already very risky' gameplan.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Then you have Acidic Slime, which you can flicker with Restoration Angel. And if you're playing Angel, you can have Kiki in the sideboard for a surprise win.