Right now i can think of shattering spree. Would be better than ancient grudge, it works with helix and you can replicate off of it since helix «casts» the copies.
Also i'm not so sure about the big spells anymore. The problem isn't you can't get them in your grave, it is that they are just bad without helix. I think helix can give you enough value off of small spells without going all-in on a card you play 2x with no possible ways of reccuring them from the grave.
I don't really have a problem running a 1-of spell I can't cast unless I 'combo'. Especially with the ability to manipulate card quality in the deck as well as make up for card disadvantage through the power of Loam. In my mind, it is fuel for what becomes a 1-card combo of resolving a Helix. The benefit to it is that you don't have to have specific cards. It's just letting the deck do what it does and sometimes you'll just lock someone out with a resolved artifact. I don't think I'd run more than 1 but for minimal space it has some significant potential upside.
I don't think I really need Shattering Spree. With how much removal the deck has MB, it shouldn't be a bad match. Especially when supplemented with Anger and Grudge. I don't like the idea of having removal that can target Helix imprinted because there is no option to casting the other half. So if I'm winning through Flame Jab retraces and have Pulse on Helix, eventually I'll have to target my own Helix with it. Ending the value train.
Really, I just need to play some real games with the deck but I won't be able to do so until next week. Once I do, I'll get my findings back to you guys. I foresee graveyard hate being a major issue but we'll see.
My main worry is with a Bob out taking fetches and shocks, then possibly flipping a worst fears. That would really put you into bolt range against decks like patriot and jund. That is probably my main concern for running Bob without access to top or any other top deck manipulation
Really? A 1 in 60 chance of that happening? I mean, yes, eventually, I will inevitably flip Worst Fears to Bob. Is that reason enough to not run a very powerful draw engine in a deck that could really use it? Is the potential to lock an opponent out of a game not worth the minimal inclusion? I'd just like to be say for the record that I don't know if this is going to be worth it and to be honest I'm really not the biggest fan of the Jund version of the deck to begin with. I just think there is some value here to be tried. I agree that Worst Fears isn't an optimal card on its own but being able to SlaverLock someone for 4 mana on the first activation and 1 every subsequent turn for very low risk with a card that, by itself, makes almost every other card in the deck go berserk. I just can't see the mild downsides outweighing the upside. Is Bob best for the deck? Probably not, but it might be. I said earlier that I just want to use him because I've been sitting on them for forever and it is a good card. If I don't like him, I'll give Pyromancer a run. If I don't like Pyromancer, then I'll give something else a go. It's still early in brewing with Helix. I just don't want to quit without trying it. That came out more defensive than it probably should have... I just want to test with the cards and I'm sure things will change. New lists are always rough. Like I said, I don't want to give up on an idea just because it has some potential to fail. I think there's enough upside to make it viable.
@ Ace1: I definitely just skipped over the "you may copy" part on Helix when I had read it. That changes things a bit and makes the card better than I thought it was.
Don't get me wrong, I love card advantage from bob. But with loam and faithless looting I am not sure how much extra card draw we need. In my experience the game tends to be a a steady progression towards stabilizing and we stabilize at a low life total some times from our fetchlands and shocklands. My concern would be the fact that bob will be flipping a lot of 2 and 3 cmc cards, plus we have the 1 of 8 cmc that really cuts our life total in half. Obviously we have a ton of tools to get rid of him when the time comes, plus we can use him to chump block something worse comes to worse. I had a match in legacy against as opponent playing junk stoneblade and he begins to flip a card for bob I see him cringe as he places it and I commented, "let me guess the 1 of tombstalker?" It can be painful but it isn't like that is the end of the world for us. Just a little food for thought since that possible 8 life flip can really matter in the aggro match up. Not that they won't just bolt him in the first place though.
Really, I just need to play some real games with the deck but I won't be able to do so until next week. Once I do, I'll get my findings back to you guys. I foresee graveyard hate being a major issue but we'll see.
Isn't this the main problem with the deck int he first place? People will target your yard because of Loam, and then target it even harder if you somehow lock them out. I think it has a good 'surprise factor' but you really need to be able to play without the yard. This is why I think the Jund version with Bob and Goyf is the best choice for loam. The deck would then run over games with the yard, be ok without it, and randomly have potential to combo out wins through Worst Fears or something.
If they are locked out chances are they aren't targeting anything though. If they know it is coming we can always tear apart their hand of things that will disrupt us. We have a lot of hand hate and creature removal for anything that could potentially disrupt us.
I've been playing this deck (specifically, 4-color Pyromancer) for a couple of weeks now and I'm loving it. It's really interactive, can make some insane plays, and feels like it has answers to most things.
The problem I've been having is, oddly, UWR. I know that this should be a good matchup -- Loam + Raven's Crime + Ghost Quarter is, to say the least, problematic for them -- but it seems like every time I play against UWR, they topdeck something I can't deal with (Ajani Vengeant and Keranos, God of Storms have been my particular boogeymen).
Like I said, I'm new to the deck, so it's totally possible I'm playing things wrong. Is aggressively attacking their hand, then lands, the right tack? Am I just getting unlucky, that they seem to get that trump card every game*? Or is this a problem others have had as well?
* I do mean every game. I've had maybe a dozen games against UWR control, and won exactly one of them. It has become frustrating.
Sometimes UWR just has all the answers they need. plus the have access to rest in peace after board which can be a problem. Since you have access to white try revoke existence for rest in peace and the god. If you can quarter lock them off red that can also help against the god. The issue is keeping up on the lock while trying to resolve your assault. But if you can resolve assault and then quarter them into oblivion the rest is a cake walk. Revoke existence should be your first goal for your board. Ajani still takes assault to the face so that should be smoothed out. If not run 2 needle in the board to answer the vengeant
I ended up taking 3rd place out of ~16 people last night. I went 3-1; beating Bogle, RDevotionW, U-Tron and losing to UR Twin. The deck worked pretty well. The only awkward thing I noticed was, unless I drew well, Helix could be played but I wouldn't be able to activate it right away with any certainty. As in, I'd have targets for it in my graveyard, but I didn't have a second Retrace spell/Loam ready to get immediate value. That being said, I got it active in 3 games and it was insane. I only Slaver-Locked one person. Other than that hint of awkwardness, the deck performed pretty well. Raven's Crime was an all star. I want to get a 3rd Liliana in the MB but I think I may have to just stick it in the SB for now.
I'm still kind of irked about the UR Twin match. Game 1 I kept 5 lands, Flame Jab and Raven's Crime against a blind opponent whilst on the draw. So, I obliterated his hand and got him stuck on 2 and 3 mana for most of the game. He EoT plays Exarch on three mana, untaps, draws land and slams Twin. Which just seemed extremely lucky on his part. Game 2 I boarded out the Helix package and 2 Jabs, since I figured they'd be a bit slow and Loam+Assault should get the job done. I then proceeded to get an Assault countered (I had baited several counters before hand, he just happened to have all the answers) and mill out the other 3 while digging for Crimes/Raging Ravine. It was just an extremely awkward set of circumstances and I didn't see any pressure until it was way too late. I actually felt like the match up wasn't that bad. I just lost to my own deck misfiring.
The other matches flowed smoother. I probably misplayed a bit trying to get Helix to work. I pitched some removal spells and kept Helix in hand even though I couldn't get it rolling that turn when I played Faithless Looting a couple times. Though things worked out pretty well despite that.
Anyways, this is what I'm thinking of running going forward:
It was a lot of fun to play the deck. I kind of wish I could up the numbers on Abrupt Decay and Liliana in the MB but it starts to hurt the consistency of the rest of the deck. I don't think this is quite optimal yet but it's pretty solid. Bob was awesome all night. Inquisition had it's moments but was a little inconsistent. I don't want to cut it but I'd be open to suggestions. I really wish I could run 6 Raven's Crimes. That card is just insanely good.
I think it wouldn't hurt to drop the number of Flame Jabs to 3. But before I suggest it, how much were you relying on it to activate the Helix? It seems like a sub par card that is only a 4 of right now to ensure that you have enough retrace targets. I didn't play the deck so I can't really have too much of an opinion on it, but it is the first thing that jumps out to me.
Here is my take on aggro loam with helix. I based it off of the jund build with white splash for souls.
As soon as I get the pieces for it I will be testing it.
I don't think losing Faithless Looting is worth the extra numbers on the three drops. I'd be interested to hear how Pyromancer works for you. I'd recommend getting another manland in the land base. I don't know if you'll find it happens for you but I was milling pretty aggressively with the deck and having some recurrable wincons adds some consistency. Also, I'd really recommend running the full set of Flame Jabs. It's not fantastic but it works as a back up wincon with Helix. I wasn't upset with it, despite it being kind of underpowered.
Hello all,
I want to try this deck, but I'm on a budget. I have a few fetchlands (4 arid mesa & 1 marsh flats) and some painlands, but no Liliana's or Abrupt Decay. Is their a budget version of this deck?
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"Only the dead have seen the end of the war."
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Modern Silverblack RRed Deck Wins
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You don't necessarily need Liliana. I would certainly suggest having abrupt decay though. The fetchlands should work fine if you at least have access to shock lands and maybe filter lands. Graven cairns, fire-lit thicket. The red fixing is important. after that assault, loam and most other pieces for the deck are pretty cheap.
Look at the RG aggro list from the Primer. Tarmogoyf is the only really expensive card and that could easily be replaced by another aggressive beater (though it won't be the same). Flinthoof Boar comes to mind. The landbase has a bunch of fetches but you could substitute those with other lands. Pretty much anything that taps for G/R would be acceptable. Arid Mesa would be fine in there. The rest of the deck plus sideboard isn't all that expensive and would be a fine jumping off place for the deck.
Since we are heavy in removal scavenging ooze comes to mind as a 2 mana replacement for goyf. Granted it can get mana intensive but at least it is still live against a RiP unlike goyf. Plus it keeps it's size. If you have access to young pyromancer that could be an option for you.
I have a budget RG build I'm using until I have the fetches for a third (or fourth) color. I'm using Commune with the Gods which digs pretty deep and finds Assault as well as sideboard enchantments and creatures. I'm going away from the aggro plan a bit to run more lands (4 tec. edge 1 ghost quarter, manlands). Since you have 5 white fetches you could play budget WRG with Knight of the Reliquary, potentially Path to Exile or something, maybe some sideboard cards.
I'd really recommend running the full set of Flame Jabs. It's not fantastic but it works as a back up wincon with Helix. I wasn't upset with it, despite it being kind of underpowered.
This was my question from before. Now when you say back up wincon do you mean that you burned the opponent out with it, or used it to proc whatever you imprinted with the Helix?
@ The other discussion going on...
Countryside Crusher is the oldschool creature of choice. It has the potential to be bigger than anything else that Modern has to offer, but has the fault of getting killed by Lightning Bolt while the +1/+1 counter trigger is on the stack. If you are playing straight RG then Bow of Nylea is a good sideboard card that can come into the maindeck if you need it to get rid of this problem.
Also i'm not so sure about the big spells anymore. The problem isn't you can't get them in your grave, it is that they are just bad without helix. I think helix can give you enough value off of small spells without going all-in on a card you play 2x with no possible ways of reccuring them from the grave.
I don't think I really need Shattering Spree. With how much removal the deck has MB, it shouldn't be a bad match. Especially when supplemented with Anger and Grudge. I don't like the idea of having removal that can target Helix imprinted because there is no option to casting the other half. So if I'm winning through Flame Jab retraces and have Pulse on Helix, eventually I'll have to target my own Helix with it. Ending the value train.
Really, I just need to play some real games with the deck but I won't be able to do so until next week. Once I do, I'll get my findings back to you guys. I foresee graveyard hate being a major issue but we'll see.
@ Ace1: I definitely just skipped over the "you may copy" part on Helix when I had read it. That changes things a bit and makes the card better than I thought it was.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I've been playing this deck (specifically, 4-color Pyromancer) for a couple of weeks now and I'm loving it. It's really interactive, can make some insane plays, and feels like it has answers to most things.
The problem I've been having is, oddly, UWR. I know that this should be a good matchup -- Loam + Raven's Crime + Ghost Quarter is, to say the least, problematic for them -- but it seems like every time I play against UWR, they topdeck something I can't deal with (Ajani Vengeant and Keranos, God of Storms have been my particular boogeymen).
Like I said, I'm new to the deck, so it's totally possible I'm playing things wrong. Is aggressively attacking their hand, then lands, the right tack? Am I just getting unlucky, that they seem to get that trump card every game*? Or is this a problem others have had as well?
* I do mean every game. I've had maybe a dozen games against UWR control, and won exactly one of them. It has become frustrating.
I'm still kind of irked about the UR Twin match. Game 1 I kept 5 lands, Flame Jab and Raven's Crime against a blind opponent whilst on the draw. So, I obliterated his hand and got him stuck on 2 and 3 mana for most of the game. He EoT plays Exarch on three mana, untaps, draws land and slams Twin. Which just seemed extremely lucky on his part. Game 2 I boarded out the Helix package and 2 Jabs, since I figured they'd be a bit slow and Loam+Assault should get the job done. I then proceeded to get an Assault countered (I had baited several counters before hand, he just happened to have all the answers) and mill out the other 3 while digging for Crimes/Raging Ravine. It was just an extremely awkward set of circumstances and I didn't see any pressure until it was way too late. I actually felt like the match up wasn't that bad. I just lost to my own deck misfiring.
The other matches flowed smoother. I probably misplayed a bit trying to get Helix to work. I pitched some removal spells and kept Helix in hand even though I couldn't get it rolling that turn when I played Faithless Looting a couple times. Though things worked out pretty well despite that.
Anyways, this is what I'm thinking of running going forward:
4 Faithless Looting
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worst Fears
Permanents: 12
4 Dark Confidant
2 Spellweaver Helix
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Seismic Assault
Lands: 25
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Graven Cairns
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Anger of the Gods
It was a lot of fun to play the deck. I kind of wish I could up the numbers on Abrupt Decay and Liliana in the MB but it starts to hurt the consistency of the rest of the deck. I don't think this is quite optimal yet but it's pretty solid. Bob was awesome all night. Inquisition had it's moments but was a little inconsistent. I don't want to cut it but I'd be open to suggestions. I really wish I could run 6 Raven's Crimes. That card is just insanely good.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
As soon as I get the pieces for it I will be testing it.
Lands 25
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Graven Cairns
3 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells 31
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Blightning
3 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
3 Spellweaver Helix
1 Worst Fears
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Revoke Existence
2 Trading Post
I want to try this deck, but I'm on a budget. I have a few fetchlands (4 arid mesa & 1 marsh flats) and some painlands, but no Liliana's or Abrupt Decay. Is their a budget version of this deck?
"Only the dead have seen the end of the war."
Modern 0Affinity
Modern Silverblack RRed Deck Wins
Tiny Leaders EDH RWUShu Yun
Commander RWGUril, the Sad Panda
Commander RDarretti, the Scrap Lord
@ The other discussion going on...
Countryside Crusher is the oldschool creature of choice. It has the potential to be bigger than anything else that Modern has to offer, but has the fault of getting killed by Lightning Bolt while the +1/+1 counter trigger is on the stack. If you are playing straight RG then Bow of Nylea is a good sideboard card that can come into the maindeck if you need it to get rid of this problem.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge