Outside of Tron match ups, I don't think I've ever had an opportunity to intentionally destroy my opponent's land base. I just like having an easy and readily available way to deal with Celestial Colonnades, Gavony Townships and Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexusessessees. Especially Township. Once that gets going, it's very difficult to keep up with it. Plus, most of the non-tier decks at my shop run assortments of other manlands and ability lands. It's just useful keeping those in check. Probably excessive for other metas but it has worked for me.
Makes sense. I have always kept at least 1 in the main, sometimes 2. Then I keep how ever many to make 3 in my board. I was actually thinking about 2 quarter in the main and 2 tec edge in the board. I really am not sure. I am taking a hiatus from loam and running a few other decks that I enjoy playing for now. I will have to bring it back soon though. Too much affinity happening.
I've been trying out Explore for ramp and extra dredge as well as Tibalt for the same reason. I know this deck should be fine on 3 lands but I often find I want more in play so I can play loam and do more stuff each turn. Also testing Underworld Connection although Arena is probably better. Connections/Arena let's you dredge even more. It's probably too slow. Also testing Olivia Voldaren as a finisher, always liked that card and if she lives she's all you need. Anyway, back to testing I guess.
Explore seems somewhat ok. It is never really a dead card so there is that. Tibalt is neat, I am just not sure about him in aggro loam. Perhaps if you have a deck list in mind we can judge based on what you have given up for these? Olivia Voldaren is definitely way to slow and mana intensive for this deck.
to anyone with experience with a similar configuration, i could use some help sideboarding against the major players (twin, pod). Also any input for last 2 SB slots would be great. Thanks.
I think that you might benefit going up one more Ghost Quarter in the main. I also am not a fan of 3 Flame Jabs. You would be better off having a 4th Raven's Crime for more control on their hand which will probably benefit you in the long run. A 4th Abrupt Decay will be good too since it can stop both Twin and Pod decks. Even if you splash white you can get a Ray of Revelation in the sideboard, but you don't technically need white for it anyways. As for the last two sideboard slots, maybe Slaughter Games could work, or another Anger of the Gods to help with aggro decks.
I completely agree with Torpf the 4th abrupt decay is definitely key here. I feel like you want young pyromancer instead of ghast with your spell composition. I played with the 3 jabs mainboard for young pyro and I agree again that I would probably go to 4th raven's crime over the 3rd jab. Jab isn't that great. If anything you're probably better off with that extra seismic assault to control the board a bit more.
As for your sideboard, you really don't want the 4th flame jab. That should definitely be another anger of the gods. The 2 unknown slots would go well as courser of kruphix. I had been testing it in my board and it was delightful to have in many different match ups. Especially anything aggro.
Against pod my boarding for your list as posted would probably go
-1 Worm Harvest - Slow
-3 Inquistion of Kozilek - Doesn't hit pod or their bigger guys
-3 Flame Jab - Mana intensive
+2 Thoughtseize - Hits Pod, bigger guys
+2 Anger of the Gods - Wipes all their mana dorks, including Wall of roots if they have gotten activations
+3 Ancient Grudge - Hits pod, obviously
Against Twin
-2 Flame Jab - sorcery speed removal is bad in my experience. They'll flash in a guy EoT and then go nuts next turn. 1 Damage also doesn't solve your problem against exarch
+2 Thoughtseize - Hits Kiki and Twin
This all depends on your sideboard unknown slots and if you change it at all. I have always hated having sorcery speed removal against this deck. If you wanted dismembers in your board, that would be decent against a lot of decks and can cost 1 if you need it to. It handles anything they try to throw at you, can often handle a goyf if you need it to. Really depends on what you decide. Torpor orb can be a great filler against both decks you are concerned with.
The 4th Abrupt Decay in the main deck or in the sideboard? I thought about ray of revelation...the only problem is it wouldn't surprise anyone since I'd have to loam it to cast it (I feel the mana base is already tight without adding white). I tried 4 raven's crimes but it felt like I often saw it too much and wasn't happy with it. If you guys say 3 jabs is too much, I will take your advice. -1 flame jab + 1 abrupt decay? or +1 seismic assault? decisions decisions...maybe I will just go up to the 4 anger in the sideboard. I think fast aggro is the worst match up (is this true?), so maybe 4 of those would not hurt.
3 anger in the board was more than enough in my experience. If you think about it you can anger turn 3 to "reset" the board, then on turn 4 your are dropping assualt and keeping any stragglers off the board while killing your opponent. The 4th decay would come in for the 3rd jab main board. As for the jab in the sideboard I would switch it with the 3rd anger, then add either 2 dismember or 2 torpor orbs to help as hate for Pod/Twin. Hope this works for you.
I basically changed smallpoxes for 2 lili and 2 pulse. Has anyone tried pulse in this deck? I found smallpox too unconsistent overall. In some matchups with the correct hand it is quite potent but when you don't have the correct starting hand it can screw us up as well. Also it doesn't always do enough vs certain decks and it is a quite bad topdeck when the opponent has lots of creatures and lands. Pulse also triggers young pyro, with pox you net nothing from him.
I've wanted to add lili for a long time, i finally found the space for her. Also with lingering souls you get extra value from her +1.
Between raven's crime, loam and flame jab we already get a lot of value from her +1, but having extra cards to get value from it is definitely a good plus. Especially when next turn you can loam and cast souls. Very nice. I used to run pulse in the sideboard but found it somewhat slow for removal and usually it is going to hit a 1 of without additional value. I really like your sideboard though. I recently tested bow of nylea and it is far better than I ever would have given it credit for. I guess I probably just don't quite understand ooze in your sideboard. Would surgical extraction/exirpate not be better.
The 4th Abrupt Decay in the main deck or in the sideboard? I thought about ray of revelation...the only problem is it wouldn't surprise anyone since I'd have to loam it to cast it (I feel the mana base is already tight without adding white). I tried 4 raven's crimes but it felt like I often saw it too much and wasn't happy with it. If you guys say 3 jabs is too much, I will take your advice. -1 flame jab + 1 abrupt decay? or +1 seismic assault? decisions decisions...maybe I will just go up to the 4 anger in the sideboard. I think fast aggro is the worst match up (is this true?), so maybe 4 of those would not hurt.
You want to be playing 4 Seismic Assault. It is the best card in the deck and there is no reason not to play 4. Yes seeing multiple of it is bad, but I can guarantee that you will mill one at least once, and have no way to recover it. By playing 4 of them you will be seeing it as fast as possible in every game which is what you want.
The reasonning for ooze is that i want to increase threat density game 2 and 3 due to hate. Sometimes you just lose your graveyard and can't loam for seismic or retrace for young pyro or lose a bunch of souls to hate cards and such. Having more win cons helps fight hate, even though grave hate is not that popular anymore. Still when people don't know what to put in their side they generally play artifact hate and graveyard hate so this is a thing.
I think ooze is better hate than surgical, which is a one shot and i found sometimes surgical just sits in your hand doing nothing, you won't always be able to hit something relevant with it. Ooze at least adds pressure. You can also get value from the life gain vs aggressive decks, i'd gadly side oozes in addition to courser, huntmaster and bow vs burn for instance.
If you say pulse is too clunky i guess that makes sense, maybe i'll just stick to explosives, which have been very good in the main for me.
Pulse is definitely ok as a more expensive decay that can hit higher than 3 cost cards. It's downside is that very rarely will your target be in multiples. Unless you're hitting a Liliana which is just bad when you have one as well. That was my issue with pulse. But it's still a decent decay #5.
Makes sense on ooze. I can get behind that. Seems like you really need to hate out burn
I'll experiment with a singleton eternal witness, seems like we can get some value from it. I agree that a 4th assault might be needed and witness is kind of that, it can get back dredged or destroyed assaults, or other stuff if we have them. I made the changes in my previous decklist.
I think I would like eternal witness a lot more if we had access to Volrath's stronghold and we could get back the witness if dredged away. Otherwise it's something you need in your opening hand and usually there are better things to have in our opening hand. It also acts as a bad creature when rest in peace or other yard hate cards are on the field. Personally I'd rather have courser, thrun, ooze, huntmaster, etc as a one of mainboard.
What do you guys think of running Spellweaver Helix in a Jund shell that goes a bit more deep on Dredge and Retrace. If you get Flame Jab or Raven's Crime imprinted with Life from the Loam, every time you'd Jab/Crime them, you'd get back 3 lands. With Assault, that's 4 damage and they take 1/discard a card for R/B. I don't think it'd be more than a 1-of or 2-of in the deck but if you get it online, you just go off semi-exponentially.
That would be pretty neat. Decent idea. I'm feeling as a 1 or a 2 of though and I would guess crime/jab would have to be 4 ofs to increase the chances of imprint plus being able to fire them off. I wouldn't want too many helix since it does exile and we need to find the multiples to use it. But definitely makes us more mana efficient once it's online. Your reasoning definitely makes sense and it's definitely worth a test or 2.
Spellweaver helix seems neat, also note that you cast the copy so young pyro is indeed triggered each time. I'm just not sure about having to play 4x jab (which would warp the deck) for a card that would be a 1-2 of. Also, imprinting smallpox would be ridiculously crazy
@mykatdied: i'll thrust your judgement on witness, i'll try a singleton vengeful pharaoh. I've played the card in the past and it was pretty good, i just need not to miss triggers when i'm attacked Also lili solves the card's main issue which is having it stuck in hand. Pharaoh is also sort of a win con if you hardcast it (when you have nothing better to do).
EDIT: Pharaoh also leads to awkward decisions for the opponent because he triggers when lili is hit
My point is that you'd want as much redundancy as possible for when you have the helix in hand.
Smallpox with Loam would be incredible. Especially if you're actually casting a Loam and getting the pox copy.
Witness probably isn't the worst, but isn't my first pick.
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3 graven cairns
4 verdant catacombs
2 arid mesa
2 blood crypt
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 mountain
1 forest
1 swamp
1 raging ravine
1 tectonic edge
1 ghost quarter
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 copperline gorge
1 worm harvest
4 life from the loam
3 raven's crime
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 faithless looting
3 abrupt decay
3 flame jab
3 seismic assault
3 liliana of the veil
4 smallpox
2 anger of the gods
1 flame jab
2 thoughtseize
4 ancient grudge
4 dragon's claw
2 unkown
to anyone with experience with a similar configuration, i could use some help sideboarding against the major players (twin, pod). Also any input for last 2 SB slots would be great. Thanks.
Just some quick thoughts.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
As for your sideboard, you really don't want the 4th flame jab. That should definitely be another anger of the gods. The 2 unknown slots would go well as courser of kruphix. I had been testing it in my board and it was delightful to have in many different match ups. Especially anything aggro.
Against pod my boarding for your list as posted would probably go
-1 Worm Harvest - Slow
-3 Inquistion of Kozilek - Doesn't hit pod or their bigger guys
-3 Flame Jab - Mana intensive
+2 Thoughtseize - Hits Pod, bigger guys
+2 Anger of the Gods - Wipes all their mana dorks, including Wall of roots if they have gotten activations
+3 Ancient Grudge - Hits pod, obviously
Against Twin
-2 Flame Jab - sorcery speed removal is bad in my experience. They'll flash in a guy EoT and then go nuts next turn. 1 Damage also doesn't solve your problem against exarch
+2 Thoughtseize - Hits Kiki and Twin
This all depends on your sideboard unknown slots and if you change it at all. I have always hated having sorcery speed removal against this deck. If you wanted dismembers in your board, that would be decent against a lot of decks and can cost 1 if you need it to. It handles anything they try to throw at you, can often handle a goyf if you need it to. Really depends on what you decide. Torpor orb can be a great filler against both decks you are concerned with.
The 4th Abrupt Decay in the main deck or in the sideboard? I thought about ray of revelation...the only problem is it wouldn't surprise anyone since I'd have to loam it to cast it (I feel the mana base is already tight without adding white). I tried 4 raven's crimes but it felt like I often saw it too much and wasn't happy with it. If you guys say 3 jabs is too much, I will take your advice. -1 flame jab + 1 abrupt decay? or +1 seismic assault? decisions decisions...maybe I will just go up to the 4 anger in the sideboard. I think fast aggro is the worst match up (is this true?), so maybe 4 of those would not hurt.
4 Faithless Looting
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
1 Flame Jab
4 Life From The Loam
4 Lingering Souls
artifact: 1
1 engineered explosives
instants: 5
1 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
enchantments: 3
3 Seismic Assault
creatures: 5
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Liliana of the Veil
lands: 25
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Arid Mesa
1 Graven Cairns
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Treetop Village
2 Raging Ravine
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Anger Of The Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Slaughter Games
1 Bow of Nylea
EDIT: eternal witness and explosives added
EDIT2: -1 witness +1 pharaoh
I basically changed smallpoxes for 2 lili and 2 pulse. Has anyone tried pulse in this deck? I found smallpox too unconsistent overall. In some matchups with the correct hand it is quite potent but when you don't have the correct starting hand it can screw us up as well. Also it doesn't always do enough vs certain decks and it is a quite bad topdeck when the opponent has lots of creatures and lands. Pulse also triggers young pyro, with pox you net nothing from him.
I've wanted to add lili for a long time, i finally found the space for her. Also with lingering souls you get extra value from her +1.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I think ooze is better hate than surgical, which is a one shot and i found sometimes surgical just sits in your hand doing nothing, you won't always be able to hit something relevant with it. Ooze at least adds pressure. You can also get value from the life gain vs aggressive decks, i'd gadly side oozes in addition to courser, huntmaster and bow vs burn for instance.
If you say pulse is too clunky i guess that makes sense, maybe i'll just stick to explosives, which have been very good in the main for me.
Makes sense on ooze. I can get behind that. Seems like you really need to hate out burn
@mykatdied: i'll thrust your judgement on witness, i'll try a singleton vengeful pharaoh. I've played the card in the past and it was pretty good, i just need not to miss triggers when i'm attacked Also lili solves the card's main issue which is having it stuck in hand. Pharaoh is also sort of a win con if you hardcast it (when you have nothing better to do).
EDIT: Pharaoh also leads to awkward decisions for the opponent because he triggers when lili is hit
Smallpox with Loam would be incredible. Especially if you're actually casting a Loam and getting the pox copy.
Witness probably isn't the worst, but isn't my first pick.