Agreed about Mulch. It sets up the combo and often reads "1G: Draw two or three (and sometimes four) cards." A couple copies have to be in there. I haven't tried Grisly Salvage because my deck wants creatures in the yard and not in the hand and often doesn't generate as much card advantage as Mulch, but I'll test a copy before I play tonight and see how it goes. Now that you mention it, we DO have a lot of Affinity tech, with maindeck Pyroclasms and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Maybe one copy of Ancient Grudge and one Damnation as a catch-all sweeper that I can bring in for other matchups like Bogles, too? Not sure.
Grisly salvage can also read, BG: Instant - Put 5 cards into your graveyard or put a creature or land into your hand and put 4 cards in your yard. Grisly salvage can be a mill 5 if you choose for it to be. It digs 1 deeper than mulch. It is an option if you need a deathrite shaman and you reveal 1.
Also with your deck against aggro seems best to rush out the combo. Against control and combo it seems like using raven's crime and liliana to control their hand is the best route until you are confortable to be able to grind them out then fire off the unburial rites. Are you rushing the combo all the time? If so, this may be where you are running into troubles.
That's why I'm struggling with the Deathrite Shaman build. Those four slots are really valuable in a deck that wants the resources to play against aggro OR combo/control. If I prioritize combo, I'd have to cut LOTS of removal and/or control cards like Liliana of the Veil. Then again, if I'm the control player, why even have Shamans in the first place when I could be playing four pieces of removal and making my Pyroclasms perfect? Tricky, tricky!
Go without the deathrites. That is possibly your best bet. I don't play this version so I honestly am not sure of how it plays out against other decks. I really only know my creatureless jund version. I could probably splash W and see how the reanimation piece would work. My meta has slowly moved towards more and more yard hate as I have slowly learned more and more of how to play through and around it. That is my main concern for the reanimation piece. From the last list you posted if you switch shamans for 3 salvages and 1 more abrupt decay that could help smooth out some of your matches and allow you to grind down your opponent until you are ready to assemble the reanimation and win.
OK, guys, it wasn't my night, but some of that was due to loose play and variance. I went 1-3, beating 4C Gifts and losing to Kiki-Pod, Merfolk (a misplay probably cost me the match), and Twin (flooded out super hard in game 3). I learned a lot about the deck, though, and feel that it can be improved.
After talking to some locals, I switched around my sideboard before the tournament. Here's what I ran:
Takeaways:
- Raven's Crime is insane against control/combo.
- Consider adding a Horizon Canopy to the manabase so we can dredge in response to graveyard hate.
Round 2: Kiki-Pod, lost 0-2 (1-1)
- Game 1, I kept a combo-centric hand in the blind and saw T2 Domri Rade net a ton of value. I tried to race - I had the pieces to reanimate on T4 - but he found Glen Elendra Archmage. I tried to Flame Jab to deal with Archmage, but he responded with Restoration Angel. Yup, off to game 2.
- Game 2, I kept a removal-heavy hand and Abrupt Decayed Noble Heirarch. He came with a T3 Domri, which got Decayed, but still drew him a creature. (I believe it was a third Heirarch.) Eventually he wore out my removal, and an exalted Resto beat me down. I couldn't find any of my dredgers that game. Perhaps a hand of three lands, 2 Decays, 1 Terminate and an Unburial Rites isn't a keep(?).
Takeaways:
- I never felt in the game in this matchup. I may have to reevaluate my sideboard.
- Lightning Axe is a swingy card. The good - it puts stuff into the graveyard and can kill things that Lightning Bolt and Decay can't; the bad - it doesn't deal with planeswalkers. Game 1, I had an Axe in my hand, which desperately wanted to deal with Domri. Alas. I don't know what to do with those two slots.
- Decay probably isn't as good as I thought it would be in that matchup. The two Pithing Needles would've been nice to see.
Round 3: Merfolk, lost 1-2 (1-2)
- Game 1, I took a lot of damage from my lands, and he got two Lords out early. I had a T4 reanimation at the ready, but he played Thassa, God of the Sea T3 and Cursecatcher T4. Then I took 13 damage for exactsies. Sad.
- Game 2, Pyroclasm. 'Nuff said. Combo win.
- Game 3 was a loose one for me. He started playing threats, and I killed them. Idiotically, I fetched for a fourth land against Tectonic Edge, realizing what I did as soon as I cracked Marsh Flats. I'll learn. But I reanimated a Borborygmos (which would've been great if it were Iona, Shield of Emeria, but I don't own one yet), which got Vapor Snagged - forgot about that card! He eventually got three Lords out while I started to regroup. I killed Lord of Atlantis, leaving him with two Master of the Pearl Trident. Come onnnnnnn, Maelstrom Pulse! Stupidly, I forgot about the one point from Snag or I missed a fetch crack or something because I thought I was at 5 life and made a play with Flame Jab and an untapped red source that I thought would buy me a turn. (I thought I would've gone to 1 life.) Turns out, I was at 4 life and dead on the next attack. If I had gone with the other line of flashing back Faithless Looting, I would've found Decay and Axe and stabilized. Oops.
Takeaways:
- Count!
- I may want an Anger of the Gods in my sideboard as a third wrath effect in my 75. It kills single-pumped Merfolk and would probably be good against Pod decks, too.
- My mana hurt me in game 1, as I could've reanimated Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Borborygmos if I had survived that 13-point attack. I may consider a couple Arid Mesas and a basic Mountain (and probably a second Graven Cairns in that case, too). I wanted to fetch for red a fair amount, and being able to save 2 life could be huge. Not sure, though, 'cuz that might make my Crimes worse. What do y'all think?
Round 4: Twin, lost 1-2 (1-3)
- Game 1, I Crime-d my way through three consecutive cantrips and eventually ground out a Borborygmos win.
- Game 2, T1 Relic of Progenitus. I didn't find any of my Decays for it, and I had to play more cautiously than I would've liked. More experience against that card would definitely have helped, as I might not have played optimally. Eventually Grim Lavamancer + Vendilion Clique (whose trigger put a monster on the bottom) beat me down.
- Game 3, T1 Relic again. This time I mulliganed to a (six-card) hand with Decay in it, so I dealt with it. I was beginning to assemble the combo, but he Clique-d away my Life from the Loam. I then drew six lands in seven draw steps (the other card being Unburial Rites) and lost to Batterskull.
Takeaways:
- This matchup felt winnable. I don't think I'd change too much to combat it.
Overall, I had fun playing it, but I think it could use a little more dredge. Dakmor Salvage was awesome all tournament, so that definitely stays in. I don't think Darkblast is where I want to be right now, though. I struggled with big flyers, so how 'bout a couple Stinkweed Imps instead of the Mulch/Grisly Salvage? Dredging five cards would be awesome, and it gives me a formidable, recurring blocker against aggressive decks. Hopefully I play a little tighter next time and draw a little more action.
Feel free to ask questions, provide comments, and excoriate me for playing super terribly against Merfolk!
I don't really see any point of bog in your main board so that could become a red source. Since you do use W arid mesa is definitely an option. Too bad you can't have windswept heath or wooded foothills. That would certainly be awesome.
You can probably go without the sacred foundry as you have godless shrine and temple garden for your white sources.
Terminate could probably be a third ax, or a singleton hero's downfall since planeswalkers seemed tough. I would even consider a second abrupt decay main board.
Also I don't see anything about timely reinforcements. Did you use it even once? if it seemed unnecessary I would probably add a 3rd needle, seems to have a lot of utility where you are. I would also consider a 3rd thoughtseize for much of the same reason. Many of the decks you played against seem like you need some form of additional discard, that picks something.
Not too sure if any of this helps you all that much, but given the report it all seems reasonable. I may be attending a modern tournament for force of wills on Saturday. We shall see if I can get some good luck there.
Good luck, mykatdied! If I don't have to be in the recording studio tomorrow (Thursday) night, I'm gonna play another tournament at a different store.
All good observations you made.
- Bojuka Bog is getting cut. I feel fine playing against other graveyard-centric decks like Living End and 4C Gifts, so I don't think I need any hate.
- If I add Horizon Canopy, I'll probably cut Sacred Foundry.
- I wasn't sure about Terminate going into the tournament, but you're probably right - just a worse Lightning Axe. That may turn into a second Abrupt Decay in the main, though (with two still in the side). It was good almost all the time.
- Not sure what to do about Flame Jab. I played one and was rather unimpressed. Could be my matchups, though, replete with Lords and persist creatures and 4-toughness Angels and flash creatures.
- I just never drew Timely Reinforcements, but in testing, every time I cast it, it was awesome (especially if I got Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into play). I'm gonna keep them in for now so I can try to get them some in-game action. They could possibly be swapped out for an Anger of the Gods (which might be more effective against aggro matchups but less so against Burn) and something else. Not sure yet.
- I'm considering playing one Slaughter Games in the side, but I might be too slow for it. Other options include a third Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek (like you said) or a fourth Raven's Crime. Dreadbore might be interesting, too, but I'd really only need it for Karn Liberated.
- Should I try Ajani Vengeant in the sideboard? The Helix could really help. It can also keep Tarmogoyfs and other mean idiots tapped down. I really struggled against aggressive starts, so it might be good.
As of right now, here's my updated list (with black fetches for now - haven't gotten my Arid Mesas in the mail from Canada yet):
I'm adding Lavaclaw Reaches instead of Bojuka Bog as another way to win in case all my cards get hated out.
EDIT: Would Damnation be better than Anger of the Gods in the 8-black-fetch build? It's a turn slower, but it kills everything and is more amenable to this manabase.
How often are you tutoring for the Forest? Could that be swapped for the Mountain you were looking to slot in there? Also, what about the Horizon Canopy you were thinking about adding?
I'm fetching for basic Forest a LOT. I think this build will be optimized with about 2-3 Arid Mesas. Kinda bummed out that they haven't come yet. If I could add a basic Mountain, I'd also add the Horizon Canopy, as I wouldn't be as worried about the life loss. With only two basics, though, I'm gonna leave the Canopy out for now. Also, if/when I play Mesas/Mountain, I may add at least one Flame Jab into the 75 somewhere. It wasn't very good in the black fetch build 'cuz, well, I didn't get R mana as often.
Hi, Muten Yoshi! Four might be too many, but I always want to see it, and people constantly try to remove it with their hate. I've considered going down to three copies, though, especially now that I've added Stinkweed Imp to the deck and am able to more efficiently flip my library into my graveyard. It's not a Gifts deck, where the four copies of Gifts can find one or two Unburial Rites - essentially Gifts functions as the four copies of Rites. Plus, people who have experimented with this deck a lot (Travis Woo and Owen Turtenwald, namely) have all said that they want four copies. Hard to argue with them! I'll try three and see what happens.
Hi, Muten Yoshi! Four might be too many, but I always want to see it, and people constantly try to remove it with their hate. I've considered going down to three copies, though, especially now that I've added Stinkweed Imp to the deck and am able to more efficiently flip my library into my graveyard. It's not a Gifts deck, where the four copies of Gifts can find one or two Unburial Rites - essentially Gifts functions as the four copies of Rites. Plus, people who have experimented with this deck a lot (Travis Woo and Owen Turtenwald, namely) have all said that they want four copies. Hard to argue with them! I'll try three and see what happens.
Hey,
I saw your reanimator loam list when you first posted it a while ago, and I have been messing around with something very similar since then. The deck actually runs surprisingly smoothly, and it is tons of fun to play. I definitely agree on the need for more dredgers than just the loams, as you often really need one in your opening hand. I have been running 4x Life from the Loam, 2x Stinkweed Imp, and 1x Darkblast (dropped the Dakmor Salvage).
4x Unburial Rites and 4x fatty feels correct, as when you reach blind dredge mode, you want to hit one of each as fast as possible to close out the game. I have been running 1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, 2x Borborygmos Enraged, and 1x Sun Titan as my fatties of choice. Sun Titan provides a similar effect to Borby, but is much more resilient against removal as the Assault effect stays on the board, and it can ramp you towards hardcasting your fatties too.
I don't really understand the Terminate choice when you are in white and have access to Path to Exile, which just seems better most of the time. I guess it makes sense if your manabase is much more skewed towards black/red, but the mana in this deck is VERY tight, and the 1cc is pretty huge.
I still have 3x Lingering Souls in my list, but I can definitely see cutting them for more sweepers and removal. I will probably try that sometime soon. The only problem is that when they are good, they are insane, but a lot of the decks they are good against are the ones that lose to Darkblast and Flame Jab anyway. Do you feel like the deck is definitely stronger without them?
I have been trying out a 2x Drown in Filth in your Mulch/Grisly Salvage slot, and I really like it as it helps to keep the board under control while advancing your graveyard strategy. The mana feels very tight in early turns when you are trying to both keep opposing creatures off the table and set up your dredge engine, and a card that advances both plans simultaneously deserves a second look. The variance is certainly an issue, but not flipping any lands with it provides the same effect as not flipping any lands with Mulch, and fetches make it much more reliable.
I will be able to playtest much more soon when I get back to school in a few days, and will hopefully have all the cards to finish this deck and take it to some tournaments then. Until then, take into consideration that all of the conclusions above come from playing on Cockatrice and a very occasional game with friends, so the quality of opponents has not been high.
Great to see a kindred spirit, bGnomes! I like the Drown in Filth idea. Maybe I'll try one in this Modern tourney tonight. I can only play a couple rounds cuz I've gotta get into the recording studio, but I could use the reps.
Agreed on Terminate. That turned into a second Abrupt Decay. And I think Stinkweed Imp is gonna make a huge difference in my deck. Excited to try it!
I've opted not to include Lingering Souls because I've found them to be clunky. You're not always gonna find Elesh Norn, and Imp does Souls' job of staving off (and even deterring) attacks more efficiently as well as dredges five. But an argument can certainly be made for Souls. And I may try Sun Titan tonight, too. Getting back binned Liliana of the Veil is livin' the dream! And when I get my Arid Mesas, I'm gonna include one or two Flame Jabs. Fetching for a basic Mountain is something I think this deck could use.
OK, guys, three round tournament, I went 1-1-1, beating UB Mill (which, to put it mildly, is a pretty good matchup for me!), losing to RG Tron, and drawing with THE MIRROR! Yes, it was a strange tournament. Here's the 75 I played:
Round 1: UB Mill, won 2-1 (1-0)
- Game 1, I ground him down with Raven's Crime and made him sacrifice his big dorks like Lazav, Dimir Mastermind and Consuming Aberration with Liliana of the Veil. Borborygmos Enraged chucked five lands and won me the game.
- Game 2, I couldn't find any action for a long time. Eventually I reanimated Sun Titan and got Liliana back. I finally found Seismic Assault, attacked with the Titan and put Assault into play, but I was two damage short of a kill that turn. My opponent went Traumatize into Mind Funeral and beat me.
- Game 3 wasn't much of a game at all. Two Life from the Loams, T4 Borborygmos, game over.
Takeaways:
- Not much to be said here. This is a dream matchup. I will say, though, that I think we need access to three Borborygmos. Five Assault effects gives the deck more consistency. Most often, he is our win condition, so we always want to find him. And we need enough copies so that our opponent doesn't cripple our game plan if one of them gets exiled.
Round 2: RG Tron, lost 0-2 (1-1)
- Game 1, I mulled to six, and my opponent kept a one-lander. He led with Tron land -> Expedition Map and missed a land drop on T2. I Abrupt Decayed the Map, which was a huge tempo swing. I tried to race him, but he cracked enough eggs to find Relic of Progenitus. I regrouped and assembled the Ghost Quarter/Life from the Loam engine and had a winning reanimation ready. He topdecked (so he said) a second Relic and thwarted that plan. Eventually two Wurmcoil Engines came to the party - I dealt with one of them - and that was all she wrote. Good game of Magic.
- Game 2, I had to mull to five and had to deal with a natural T3 Tron into Wurmcoil. I stayed alive for awhile, but I couldn't recoup my card disadvantage and got beat down.
Takeaways:
- We have SO many dead cards in game 1, and yet it will still competitive. This might have been due to my opponent's lackluster start, but I felt encouraged.
- I brought in NINE cards from the sideboard. Even so, there were cards I wish I had access to: Stony Silence and Path to Exile. Because the matchup is so tough for us, I think we need to seriously consider these. If we're playing Sun Titan, Stony Silence seems good, as we can disinter it with the Titan trigger. It's also an effective card against Affinity. What are people's thoughts on Path?
- I need to improve my game pacing. I think I'm overextending into the graveyard too often because I'm trying to leverage my tempo and card advantages. Relic is especially devastating because they can instantly activate it, as opposed to a card like Deathrite Shaman that needs to untap. I need Horizon Canopy in the main to dredge in response to Relic activations.
- What about one Pithing Needle main? It can name Relic, Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, something dumb that's beating us ... and if we mill it, we can always get it back with Titan.
Round 3: Reanimator mirror, drew 1-1-1 (1-1-1)
- I got paired against my buddy, who normally pilots Jund, but felt saucy last night after testing with me last week. Game 1, I was on the draw. We each Loam-ed for a few turns, and I landed the first Borborygmos. He killed it with (I believe) a Terminate and reanimated his own Borborygmos. I then hard-cast Unburial Rites, targeted Sun Titan, exhumed Liliana of the Veil, and used her "-2". Next attack step, I put Seismic Assault into play and was able to deal lethal.
- Game 2 was a game of chicken for the first six or so turns. He played two early Deathrite Shamans, so I basically went "land-go" and cast a Stinkweed Imp in the first four or five turns. The Imp kept his Raging Ravine at bay. On turn five or six, I cast Assault but had to play Life from the Loam to get enough lands back to deal with both Shamans. He exiled my first Loam - not a big deal, I had another in hand. He then hard-cast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and I responded with a reanimated Elesh Norn of my own. He then got Borborygmos into play, which dealt with my 2/5 Elesh Norn with two land chucks. I lost on the next attack step.
- Game 3, we both had to play quickly because of the time left in the round. We each tried to assemble our combo, but he couldn't find Rites. If I got to untap on T6, I had the lethal reanimation ready to rage, but he exiled my graveyard with Rakdos Charm. Included in that dross was my last fetch-able red source. So I had to find one of my other seven red sources to cast Assault, which I eventually did on T5 of turns. I was one land short of inflicting lethal damage.
Takeaways:
- Sun Titan won me a game. I saw what it could do. It's powerful, yes, but I think it's a contingency plan in case we can't get Borborygmos into play. I haven't played many decks packing Path to Exile, though, so perhaps having a reanimation target with an "enters-the-battlefield" trigger that advances our board state is a must. I do think we need three Borborygmos, though, so what do y'all think of five monsters in the deck?
Overall, this was a weird field, but I had a lot of fun. I sleeved up Deathmark because I saw four Pod players before the tournament started. Stinkweed Imp helped the deck a LOT - two copies felt right. I didn't get to cast Drown in Filth, but it woulda' been good in a lot of late game situations.
Hey guys,
Been grinding smallpox and squee past week and i see some promise. Im 5-0 vs all jund builds online but losing hard to goryos and eggs so far. Need more graveyard hate but squee has been stupid good and i might go up to 3.
4 smallpox
4 life from the loam
4 faithless looting
4 lilliana of the veil
3 flame jab
4 ravens crime
3 lightning bolts
3 seismic addault
2 squee goblin nabob
28 lands
Sideboard
2 syphon life
2 deathmark
2 sowing salt
3 abrubt decay
3 pithing needle
2 anger of the gods
1 surgical extraction
Im thinking leylines probably the best way to attack graveyard decks. There is definate potential in the shell of faithless pox and lilly, just gotta fill in the rest. Like i said, the jund matchup is insane, which is where i want to be.
I sideboard a set of leyline. It is really good yard hate for modern. Legacy I prefer extraction and extirpate because of greedy mana bases and tempo decks. In modern I definitely favor leyline. Your list seems like a more refined creatureless assault deck. I have been very happy so I would assume the same for you. Have you test against RiP to see how your deck fairs in that situation?
Is Squee solely for repeatable fodder for Looting, Smallpox and Liliana? Maybe it's just because I'm unfamiliar with the deck but Squee and lands puts you at 30 cards that are mainly discarded to other spells. Do you find that you're seeing enough action in your hands? What do you bring Syphon Life in against?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
RUG Forever A Loam
Counter CatUWRG
RGTitan Fall
QuestSteelUW
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4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Raging Ravine
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (24)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Raven's Crime
1 Flame Jab
2 Lightning Axe
2 Pyroclasm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Mulch
1 Grisly Salvage
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Terastodon
I don't own Iona, Shield of Emeria, so I can't play her. I'm thinking of trying out Terastodon for my Tron matchup. I can kill the tokens with one Borborygmos Enraged activation, so it might be good. If I need to, I can blow up three of my lands and just loam them back, too. I'm also gonna see how Terminate instead of a second Abrupt Decay in the main works. Terminate kills Creeping Tar Pit; Celestial Colonnade; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; and Griselbrand, and it makes Wurmcoil Engine more manageable. For my heuristic side, I'm running a 1:1 Mulch/Grisly Salvage split in efforts to see the merits of each. My singleton Flame Jab should be pretty good as well, but since I have a lot of that effect in Seismic Assault and Borborygmos, I don't want a ton of copies. Whaddaya think?
Thanks for all your input, mykatdied!
After talking to some locals, I switched around my sideboard before the tournament. Here's what I ran:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Raging Ravine
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (24)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Raven's Crime
1 Flame Jab
2 Lightning Axe
2 Pyroclasm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Mulch
1 Grisly Salvage
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terastodon
Round 1: 4C Gifts, won 2-0 (1-0)
- Game 1, I mulled to five but was able to just Raven's Crime the crap out of him. Then I landed Liliana of the Veil and took the game easily on the back of big, bad Borborygmos Enraged.
- Game 2, it took me a little longer to get going, and he began to beat me down with Kitchen Finks and Creeping Tar Pit. I landed Seismic Assault and stabilized at 2 life. Then he Surgical Extraction-ed my Life from the Loam, so I had to be selective with my land discard. Eventually I swung with Raging Ravine enough times unmolested and won.
Takeaways:
- Raven's Crime is insane against control/combo.
- Consider adding a Horizon Canopy to the manabase so we can dredge in response to graveyard hate.
Round 2: Kiki-Pod, lost 0-2 (1-1)
- Game 1, I kept a combo-centric hand in the blind and saw T2 Domri Rade net a ton of value. I tried to race - I had the pieces to reanimate on T4 - but he found Glen Elendra Archmage. I tried to Flame Jab to deal with Archmage, but he responded with Restoration Angel. Yup, off to game 2.
- Game 2, I kept a removal-heavy hand and Abrupt Decayed Noble Heirarch. He came with a T3 Domri, which got Decayed, but still drew him a creature. (I believe it was a third Heirarch.) Eventually he wore out my removal, and an exalted Resto beat me down. I couldn't find any of my dredgers that game. Perhaps a hand of three lands, 2 Decays, 1 Terminate and an Unburial Rites isn't a keep(?).
Takeaways:
- I never felt in the game in this matchup. I may have to reevaluate my sideboard.
- Lightning Axe is a swingy card. The good - it puts stuff into the graveyard and can kill things that Lightning Bolt and Decay can't; the bad - it doesn't deal with planeswalkers. Game 1, I had an Axe in my hand, which desperately wanted to deal with Domri. Alas. I don't know what to do with those two slots.
- Decay probably isn't as good as I thought it would be in that matchup. The two Pithing Needles would've been nice to see.
Round 3: Merfolk, lost 1-2 (1-2)
- Game 1, I took a lot of damage from my lands, and he got two Lords out early. I had a T4 reanimation at the ready, but he played Thassa, God of the Sea T3 and Cursecatcher T4. Then I took 13 damage for exactsies. Sad.
- Game 2, Pyroclasm. 'Nuff said. Combo win.
- Game 3 was a loose one for me. He started playing threats, and I killed them. Idiotically, I fetched for a fourth land against Tectonic Edge, realizing what I did as soon as I cracked Marsh Flats. I'll learn. But I reanimated a Borborygmos (which would've been great if it were Iona, Shield of Emeria, but I don't own one yet), which got Vapor Snagged - forgot about that card! He eventually got three Lords out while I started to regroup. I killed Lord of Atlantis, leaving him with two Master of the Pearl Trident. Come onnnnnnn, Maelstrom Pulse! Stupidly, I forgot about the one point from Snag or I missed a fetch crack or something because I thought I was at 5 life and made a play with Flame Jab and an untapped red source that I thought would buy me a turn. (I thought I would've gone to 1 life.) Turns out, I was at 4 life and dead on the next attack. If I had gone with the other line of flashing back Faithless Looting, I would've found Decay and Axe and stabilized. Oops.
Takeaways:
- Count!
- I may want an Anger of the Gods in my sideboard as a third wrath effect in my 75. It kills single-pumped Merfolk and would probably be good against Pod decks, too.
- My mana hurt me in game 1, as I could've reanimated Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Borborygmos if I had survived that 13-point attack. I may consider a couple Arid Mesas and a basic Mountain (and probably a second Graven Cairns in that case, too). I wanted to fetch for red a fair amount, and being able to save 2 life could be huge. Not sure, though, 'cuz that might make my Crimes worse. What do y'all think?
Round 4: Twin, lost 1-2 (1-3)
- Game 1, I Crime-d my way through three consecutive cantrips and eventually ground out a Borborygmos win.
- Game 2, T1 Relic of Progenitus. I didn't find any of my Decays for it, and I had to play more cautiously than I would've liked. More experience against that card would definitely have helped, as I might not have played optimally. Eventually Grim Lavamancer + Vendilion Clique (whose trigger put a monster on the bottom) beat me down.
- Game 3, T1 Relic again. This time I mulliganed to a (six-card) hand with Decay in it, so I dealt with it. I was beginning to assemble the combo, but he Clique-d away my Life from the Loam. I then drew six lands in seven draw steps (the other card being Unburial Rites) and lost to Batterskull.
Takeaways:
- This matchup felt winnable. I don't think I'd change too much to combat it.
Overall, I had fun playing it, but I think it could use a little more dredge. Dakmor Salvage was awesome all tournament, so that definitely stays in. I don't think Darkblast is where I want to be right now, though. I struggled with big flyers, so how 'bout a couple Stinkweed Imps instead of the Mulch/Grisly Salvage? Dredging five cards would be awesome, and it gives me a formidable, recurring blocker against aggressive decks. Hopefully I play a little tighter next time and draw a little more action.
Feel free to ask questions, provide comments, and excoriate me for playing super terribly against Merfolk!
You can probably go without the sacred foundry as you have godless shrine and temple garden for your white sources.
Terminate could probably be a third ax, or a singleton hero's downfall since planeswalkers seemed tough. I would even consider a second abrupt decay main board.
Also I don't see anything about timely reinforcements. Did you use it even once? if it seemed unnecessary I would probably add a 3rd needle, seems to have a lot of utility where you are. I would also consider a 3rd thoughtseize for much of the same reason. Many of the decks you played against seem like you need some form of additional discard, that picks something.
Not too sure if any of this helps you all that much, but given the report it all seems reasonable. I may be attending a modern tournament for force of wills on Saturday. We shall see if I can get some good luck there.
All good observations you made.
- Bojuka Bog is getting cut. I feel fine playing against other graveyard-centric decks like Living End and 4C Gifts, so I don't think I need any hate.
- If I add Horizon Canopy, I'll probably cut Sacred Foundry.
- I wasn't sure about Terminate going into the tournament, but you're probably right - just a worse Lightning Axe. That may turn into a second Abrupt Decay in the main, though (with two still in the side). It was good almost all the time.
- Not sure what to do about Flame Jab. I played one and was rather unimpressed. Could be my matchups, though, replete with Lords and persist creatures and 4-toughness Angels and flash creatures.
- I just never drew Timely Reinforcements, but in testing, every time I cast it, it was awesome (especially if I got Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into play). I'm gonna keep them in for now so I can try to get them some in-game action. They could possibly be swapped out for an Anger of the Gods (which might be more effective against aggro matchups but less so against Burn) and something else. Not sure yet.
- I'm considering playing one Slaughter Games in the side, but I might be too slow for it. Other options include a third Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek (like you said) or a fourth Raven's Crime. Dreadbore might be interesting, too, but I'd really only need it for Karn Liberated.
- Should I try Ajani Vengeant in the sideboard? The Helix could really help. It can also keep Tarmogoyfs and other mean idiots tapped down. I really struggled against aggressive starts, so it might be good.
As of right now, here's my updated list (with black fetches for now - haven't gotten my Arid Mesas in the mail from Canada yet):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (22)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Raven's Crime
2 Lightning Axe
2 Pyroclasm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Mulch
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Terastodon
I'm adding Lavaclaw Reaches instead of Bojuka Bog as another way to win in case all my cards get hated out.
EDIT: Would Damnation be better than Anger of the Gods in the 8-black-fetch build? It's a turn slower, but it kills everything and is more amenable to this manabase.
Whaddaya think?
Hey,
I saw your reanimator loam list when you first posted it a while ago, and I have been messing around with something very similar since then. The deck actually runs surprisingly smoothly, and it is tons of fun to play. I definitely agree on the need for more dredgers than just the loams, as you often really need one in your opening hand. I have been running 4x Life from the Loam, 2x Stinkweed Imp, and 1x Darkblast (dropped the Dakmor Salvage).
4x Unburial Rites and 4x fatty feels correct, as when you reach blind dredge mode, you want to hit one of each as fast as possible to close out the game. I have been running 1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, 2x Borborygmos Enraged, and 1x Sun Titan as my fatties of choice. Sun Titan provides a similar effect to Borby, but is much more resilient against removal as the Assault effect stays on the board, and it can ramp you towards hardcasting your fatties too.
I don't really understand the Terminate choice when you are in white and have access to Path to Exile, which just seems better most of the time. I guess it makes sense if your manabase is much more skewed towards black/red, but the mana in this deck is VERY tight, and the 1cc is pretty huge.
I still have 3x Lingering Souls in my list, but I can definitely see cutting them for more sweepers and removal. I will probably try that sometime soon. The only problem is that when they are good, they are insane, but a lot of the decks they are good against are the ones that lose to Darkblast and Flame Jab anyway. Do you feel like the deck is definitely stronger without them?
I have been trying out a 2x Drown in Filth in your Mulch/Grisly Salvage slot, and I really like it as it helps to keep the board under control while advancing your graveyard strategy. The mana feels very tight in early turns when you are trying to both keep opposing creatures off the table and set up your dredge engine, and a card that advances both plans simultaneously deserves a second look. The variance is certainly an issue, but not flipping any lands with it provides the same effect as not flipping any lands with Mulch, and fetches make it much more reliable.
I will be able to playtest much more soon when I get back to school in a few days, and will hopefully have all the cards to finish this deck and take it to some tournaments then. Until then, take into consideration that all of the conclusions above come from playing on Cockatrice and a very occasional game with friends, so the quality of opponents has not been high.
Agreed on Terminate. That turned into a second Abrupt Decay. And I think Stinkweed Imp is gonna make a huge difference in my deck. Excited to try it!
I've opted not to include Lingering Souls because I've found them to be clunky. You're not always gonna find Elesh Norn, and Imp does Souls' job of staving off (and even deterring) attacks more efficiently as well as dredges five. But an argument can certainly be made for Souls. And I may try Sun Titan tonight, too. Getting back binned Liliana of the Veil is livin' the dream! And when I get my Arid Mesas, I'm gonna include one or two Flame Jabs. Fetching for a basic Mountain is something I think this deck could use.
I'll let y'all know how my rounds go tonight!
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (22)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Raven's Crime
2 Lightning Axe
2 Pyroclasm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Drown in Filth
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Deathmark
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Damnation
1 Terastodon
Round 1: UB Mill, won 2-1 (1-0)
- Game 1, I ground him down with Raven's Crime and made him sacrifice his big dorks like Lazav, Dimir Mastermind and Consuming Aberration with Liliana of the Veil. Borborygmos Enraged chucked five lands and won me the game.
- Game 2, I couldn't find any action for a long time. Eventually I reanimated Sun Titan and got Liliana back. I finally found Seismic Assault, attacked with the Titan and put Assault into play, but I was two damage short of a kill that turn. My opponent went Traumatize into Mind Funeral and beat me.
- Game 3 wasn't much of a game at all. Two Life from the Loams, T4 Borborygmos, game over.
Takeaways:
- Not much to be said here. This is a dream matchup. I will say, though, that I think we need access to three Borborygmos. Five Assault effects gives the deck more consistency. Most often, he is our win condition, so we always want to find him. And we need enough copies so that our opponent doesn't cripple our game plan if one of them gets exiled.
Round 2: RG Tron, lost 0-2 (1-1)
- Game 1, I mulled to six, and my opponent kept a one-lander. He led with Tron land -> Expedition Map and missed a land drop on T2. I Abrupt Decayed the Map, which was a huge tempo swing. I tried to race him, but he cracked enough eggs to find Relic of Progenitus. I regrouped and assembled the Ghost Quarter/Life from the Loam engine and had a winning reanimation ready. He topdecked (so he said) a second Relic and thwarted that plan. Eventually two Wurmcoil Engines came to the party - I dealt with one of them - and that was all she wrote. Good game of Magic.
- Game 2, I had to mull to five and had to deal with a natural T3 Tron into Wurmcoil. I stayed alive for awhile, but I couldn't recoup my card disadvantage and got beat down.
Takeaways:
- We have SO many dead cards in game 1, and yet it will still competitive. This might have been due to my opponent's lackluster start, but I felt encouraged.
- I brought in NINE cards from the sideboard. Even so, there were cards I wish I had access to: Stony Silence and Path to Exile. Because the matchup is so tough for us, I think we need to seriously consider these. If we're playing Sun Titan, Stony Silence seems good, as we can disinter it with the Titan trigger. It's also an effective card against Affinity. What are people's thoughts on Path?
- I need to improve my game pacing. I think I'm overextending into the graveyard too often because I'm trying to leverage my tempo and card advantages. Relic is especially devastating because they can instantly activate it, as opposed to a card like Deathrite Shaman that needs to untap. I need Horizon Canopy in the main to dredge in response to Relic activations.
- What about one Pithing Needle main? It can name Relic, Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, something dumb that's beating us ... and if we mill it, we can always get it back with Titan.
Round 3: Reanimator mirror, drew 1-1-1 (1-1-1)
- I got paired against my buddy, who normally pilots Jund, but felt saucy last night after testing with me last week. Game 1, I was on the draw. We each Loam-ed for a few turns, and I landed the first Borborygmos. He killed it with (I believe) a Terminate and reanimated his own Borborygmos. I then hard-cast Unburial Rites, targeted Sun Titan, exhumed Liliana of the Veil, and used her "-2". Next attack step, I put Seismic Assault into play and was able to deal lethal.
- Game 2 was a game of chicken for the first six or so turns. He played two early Deathrite Shamans, so I basically went "land-go" and cast a Stinkweed Imp in the first four or five turns. The Imp kept his Raging Ravine at bay. On turn five or six, I cast Assault but had to play Life from the Loam to get enough lands back to deal with both Shamans. He exiled my first Loam - not a big deal, I had another in hand. He then hard-cast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and I responded with a reanimated Elesh Norn of my own. He then got Borborygmos into play, which dealt with my 2/5 Elesh Norn with two land chucks. I lost on the next attack step.
- Game 3, we both had to play quickly because of the time left in the round. We each tried to assemble our combo, but he couldn't find Rites. If I got to untap on T6, I had the lethal reanimation ready to rage, but he exiled my graveyard with Rakdos Charm. Included in that dross was my last fetch-able red source. So I had to find one of my other seven red sources to cast Assault, which I eventually did on T5 of turns. I was one land short of inflicting lethal damage.
Takeaways:
- Sun Titan won me a game. I saw what it could do. It's powerful, yes, but I think it's a contingency plan in case we can't get Borborygmos into play. I haven't played many decks packing Path to Exile, though, so perhaps having a reanimation target with an "enters-the-battlefield" trigger that advances our board state is a must. I do think we need three Borborygmos, though, so what do y'all think of five monsters in the deck?
Overall, this was a weird field, but I had a lot of fun. I sleeved up Deathmark because I saw four Pod players before the tournament started. Stinkweed Imp helped the deck a LOT - two copies felt right. I didn't get to cast Drown in Filth, but it woulda' been good in a lot of late game situations.
- Cards I'm considering adding:
2 or 3 Arid Mesa, 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Flame Jab, 1 Borborygmos Enraged; SB 2 Path to Exile, 1 Stony Silence
I'd have to find the cuts, but that's where my head's at. Thoughts?
Been grinding smallpox and squee past week and i see some promise. Im 5-0 vs all jund builds online but losing hard to goryos and eggs so far. Need more graveyard hate but squee has been stupid good and i might go up to 3.
4 smallpox
4 life from the loam
4 faithless looting
4 lilliana of the veil
3 flame jab
4 ravens crime
3 lightning bolts
3 seismic addault
2 squee goblin nabob
28 lands
Sideboard
2 syphon life
2 deathmark
2 sowing salt
3 abrubt decay
3 pithing needle
2 anger of the gods
1 surgical extraction
Im thinking leylines probably the best way to attack graveyard decks. There is definate potential in the shell of faithless pox and lilly, just gotta fill in the rest. Like i said, the jund matchup is insane, which is where i want to be.