A good point about the Primus. I guess it just depends on what you'd bring in a card like Primus or Rider for. If it's for Tron, killing Wurmcoils with Rider seems bad, and you probably won't be able to reanimate/survive after an Emrakul swing anyways.
Another question I have: I've been playing 2 Dragon's Claw in the side, and they've been pretty good, especially now that I'm playing 2 Flame Jab. Do you think a card like Claw is too narrow? Should that slot be for something more versatile like Obstinate Baloth?
I think that would depend on your meta. Obstinate Baloth plays double duty against discard decks and generic aggro decks (except Affinity). If you are more likely to see RDW style decks, then Dragon's Claw will have more value. Working with both their cards and your Flame Jabs, Lootings, etc. I'd say they are similar but if you expect Jund style decks, Baloth will do a similar job against RDW while also giving you a good option against Jund.
So I'm considering cutting the Lingering Souls/Elesh Norn package in favor of more removal. This way the deck is more linear - we want to kill everything and chuck lands at face -, and we can play maindeck Pyroclasms. So here's where I'm at:
- I want to try out Eternal Witness, as I often dredge something valuable and long for a way to disinter it. Having a body left over doesn't hurt either. Might not be necessary though.
- I cut Timely Reinforcements from the board because we no longer have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the list. But that might be a mistake, as T.R. is a lot of value for 2W. Obstinate Baloth has a little more utility against The Rock/Jund, but it's a little tough to hard-cast, considering our game plan is to have access to RRR (Seismic Assault) and BB (Liliana of the Veil). Is a couple copies of Kitchen Finks an option? Is Reinforcements just better than the creatures?
- Ray of Revelation will help me against annoying Leylines.
- Do I have enough discard maindeck?
Perhaps you're right, mykatdied. I've definitely considered it. Desperate Ravings seems strong in that build, as does Smallpox. Ultimately, I like Reanimator's flexibility in that we can either win on turn 5 or grind out a Seismic Assault win. Perhaps having both in one deck dilutes each strategy, but, so far, I think it's doable. In my (somewhat limited) experience, it has shown the power to defeat tier 1 decks. Plus, I'm a Timmy at heart; I play MUD in Legacy.
So let's say I sling Reanimator because it suits my play style - I wanna have fun playing this expensive game, after all - how many monsters do you think is optimal? I've seen some lists that run more than four targets and include dudes like Sun Titan. Do we like that? I can see the potential. I guess I have to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Lingering Souls if I'm playing Reanimator, right? It can swing games when we're behind and would be dead if they get to untap. Seems bad not to sleeve up the Praetor.
You're changing your deck way faster than you really should be. Put together something that you like and play that for a week or two. See how you like it. Keep track of what you don't like seeing, places where you have too much redundancy, or not enough. Then go about making minor tweaks and test with that change for a week or two. We can give you suggestions from our experience with similar style decks but we don't have the exact information on everything. That's something you'll need to figure out for your deck. Not trying to shut you down or anything, just want to get you to a point of making meaningful additions to your deck.
That's a good point, Capt. Nick. I've been goldfishing a bunch and making decisions based on hypothetical board states against the pillars of the meta. When I have time to thoroughly in-game test, I'll catalog my findings and report back.
I updated the Match-Ups section of the Primer. I added a list of the tier 1 decks for each of archetype of our deck. I'm thinking rating each match up as Easy/Medium/Difficult and a brief description of how the match ups work out will be sufficient enough to give a good idea. So if you have input on those match ups for your archetype, let me know and I'll add it to the primer.
I went through for RUG Control if you want an idea of what I am talking about. Also, here is the templating for the section:
So let's say I sling Reanimator because it suits my play style - I wanna have fun playing this expensive game, after all - how many monsters do you think is optimal? I've seen some lists that run more than four targets and include dudes like Sun Titan. Do we like that? I can see the potential. I guess I have to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Lingering Souls if I'm playing Reanimator, right? It can swing games when we're behind and would be dead if they get to untap. Seems bad not to sleeve up the Praetor.
Thanks for all your feedback!
I think sun titan and elesh norn are definitely correct. Titan will recur a liliana or an assault with can help close out the game faster, Elesh just controls the board with vengeance.
Massacre Wurm could be an option against aggro and tokens as well, since you may need to rebuff your life total a bit.
Obviously I also approve of Borborygamos since he is assault on speed.
Grislebrand I am concerned about because it seems as though he is usually not enough to close out a game depending on what you are playing against, plus paying 7 life turn 4 or later to draw cards seems like too much at that stage, especially against aggro decks.
Definitely forgot about Massacre Wurm, mykatdied. At 3BBB, I can even reasonably cast it in games. Access to a second creature-shrinker might be worth looking into in the sideboard. As far as Griselbrand, I've had mixed results. When he's good, he draws you into Seismic Assault, and you chuck your deck at them; he's bad on a lot of oppressive board states, though. So the Demon may get the kibosh for something more consistent. At least one copy of Sun Titan is going in, as, like you said, it gets back Liliana of the Veil as well as Seismic Assault and land win cons like Raging Ravine.
I'm going to come up with one final list that I'll post here first. Then I'll test and sleeve up the deck for a couple Modern tournaments at my LGS in the coming weeks. There are good players and plenty of tier 1 decks, so this field should be an accurate bellwether of how the deck stacks up against the macro meta. Then I'll report back and update Capt. Nick's matchups page.
I updated the primer with your addition Rawbean. I know that mykatdied plays the same deck type, so if you want to collaborate on that and get more detailed match ups, I can update again. I do like what you posted already Rawbean. Very informative and concise. I made sure to credit you as well.
@theMonster - I could see keeping Griselbrand if you were running it with Goryo's Vengeance. That way you get 7 "free" cards from his Lifelink+ability. Plus it's a bit cheaper than Unburial Rites albeit a one time deal. But then you are moving into a different deck type completely. Maybe just some food for thought for a future direction to go with the deck.
Interesting idea, Capt. Nick. The Goryo's Vengeance deck can do some real silly things. There's a version of the deck now that runs a set of Necrotic Ooze alongside six idiots (4 Griselbrand, 2 Borborygmos Enraged). It plays four Faithless Lootings but packs more aggressive enablers like Lotleth Troll. The Ooze seems ridiculously powerful cuz you can mill-mill-mill, then Ooze. It's like a super Unburial Rites. Granted, it doesn't pass the Lightning Bolt test, but I may try one.
Soon I'm gonna post the list I'm testing next week. Gotta mull over some o' that Vengeance tech!
That actually sounds really dumb (in the awesome/broken sort of way)... Griselbrand's draw strapped to Borborygmos' pseudo-Assault. Really weak to Scavenging Ooze but that seems extremely interesting.
Peikko, it's also devastating AGAINST us, haha. I'm excited for this card. It feels aggressively costed at 1B. Raven's Crime looks absolutely bonkers with Waste Not. Is it supposed to be released in M15?
Peikko, it's also devastating AGAINST us, haha. I'm excited for this card. It feels aggressively costed at 1B. Raven's Crime looks absolutely bonkers with Waste Not. Is it supposed to be released in M15?
Some things I'm thinking about:
- EDIT: Gonna play the Flame Jabs after all. I think they serve a different purpose than more card-efficient answers like Lightning Axe (which is an instant-speed answer to T1 Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Tarmogoyf and Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch). The two cards can coexist. Can never have too much removal in this format, right?
- The mana base hurts, and I've found myself wanting to fetch for a painless white source. I can see situations where drawing a Plains in the opener could bungle our plans, but I want to try it.
- I want to play a card like Smallpox, but I often want to start with R mana for Faithless Looting or Lightning Axe to kill Deathrite Shaman, making turn 2 Pox awkward. At least with Liliana of the Veil I can run out BB on turns 2 and 3.
- Sun Titan, in theory, will be able to get dredged Lilianas and Seismic Assaults into play if I can't find Borborygmos Enraged. Just some added insurance. Plus, I can hard cast it if I need to.
- Anyone think Ajani Vengeant could have a place in this list?
- The sideboard probably needs work, but I'll start with that and see what I need after playing games.
Also, a light aside, I play the Exodus art Seismic Assault. How 'bout y'all?
@ Peikko: I'm sure it will be a solid addition to the creatureless decks. It interacts favorably with almost all of the cards in the deck and will always get some form of value from your discard spells.
@ theMonster: Looks like a good place to start at. I hope testing goes well for you. Ajani Vengeant is definitely a good card but outside of that, it doesn't do a ton with the other cards in your deck. Maybe as a sideboard card to bring in against Mid-Range decks? If you feel you really need to run him. I think you'd be fine without though.
I run Exodus Assaults in my deck but I have a foil 8th Edition for EDH decks. Original Ravnica Loams as well. But I was working on getting the Legacy Loam deck together before Modern became a thing. So I've had the cards for awhile. Haha.
I played my RUG ControLoam deck at a Modern tournament yesterday. Took second place. I technically never lost but I went to time playing against a durdly UW Control deck. Game 1 I dug through 38 cards and didn't find a single Loam and ended up losing to a resolved Sphinx's Revelation. Ground out the second game. Then went to turns game 3. I was going to win too. Just didn't have time. Also played against a Big Boros brew and BW Tokens. With both of them being essentially "fair" decks, getting Assault online was pretty much game over for them. Infect took first place, but I'm sure I'd do well against that. I never got to play him though. Merfolk showed up at my shop now which I'm genuinely worried about. Haha.
I think 4 borygamos is a bit too much. I really think you want an elesh norn, maybe a massacre wurm. Lightning axe seems not as good as using smallpox or liliana to discard reanimate targets. Lightning axe could easily be ajani veangeant I think. That is my opinion. I too use exodus assaults. The art is awesome
I could see him keeping 4 Borborygmos. It may be a bit excessive but it is more consistent. I'd love to be able to run 6 Assaults in my RUG list. Haha. Though Elesh Norn should be in the 75. There are several decks that just can't beat her. Same with Iona.
I just think 3 Borygamos, 1 titan, 1 elesh would be best. You really don't want to all in on 1 reanimate target. That means 1 surgical almost completely ruins your day? Seems too shakey to be mostly all in on a single creature as a 4 of.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Another question I have: I've been playing 2 Dragon's Claw in the side, and they've been pretty good, especially now that I'm playing 2 Flame Jab. Do you think a card like Claw is too narrow? Should that slot be for something more versatile like Obstinate Baloth?
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Raging Ravine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Graven Cairns
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Eternal Witness
1 Griselbrand
3 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ajani Vengeant
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (23)
4 Faithless Looting
2 Raven's Crime
2 Flame Jab
2 Pyroclasm
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
2 Mulch
1 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Deathmark
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Stony Silence
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Pyroclasm
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
- I want to try out Eternal Witness, as I often dredge something valuable and long for a way to disinter it. Having a body left over doesn't hurt either. Might not be necessary though.
- I cut Timely Reinforcements from the board because we no longer have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the list. But that might be a mistake, as T.R. is a lot of value for 2W. Obstinate Baloth has a little more utility against The Rock/Jund, but it's a little tough to hard-cast, considering our game plan is to have access to RRR (Seismic Assault) and BB (Liliana of the Veil). Is a couple copies of Kitchen Finks an option? Is Reinforcements just better than the creatures?
- Ray of Revelation will help me against annoying Leylines.
- Do I have enough discard maindeck?
So let's say I sling Reanimator because it suits my play style - I wanna have fun playing this expensive game, after all - how many monsters do you think is optimal? I've seen some lists that run more than four targets and include dudes like Sun Titan. Do we like that? I can see the potential. I guess I have to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Lingering Souls if I'm playing Reanimator, right? It can swing games when we're behind and would be dead if they get to untap. Seems bad not to sleeve up the Praetor.
Thanks for all your feedback!
Really appreciate the input, y'all!
I updated the Match-Ups section of the Primer. I added a list of the tier 1 decks for each of archetype of our deck. I'm thinking rating each match up as Easy/Medium/Difficult and a brief description of how the match ups work out will be sufficient enough to give a good idea. So if you have input on those match ups for your archetype, let me know and I'll add it to the primer.
I went through for RUG Control if you want an idea of what I am talking about. Also, here is the templating for the section:
Easy
Medium
Difficult
Twin Combo:
GR Tron:
UWR Control:
Melira Pod:
Scapeshift:
Affinity:
Burn:
Just quote this post and you can copy and paste the bits and pieces together. Or not, and I can reformat it. Haha. Either way works for me.
I think sun titan and elesh norn are definitely correct. Titan will recur a liliana or an assault with can help close out the game faster, Elesh just controls the board with vengeance.
Massacre Wurm could be an option against aggro and tokens as well, since you may need to rebuff your life total a bit.
Obviously I also approve of Borborygamos since he is assault on speed.
Grislebrand I am concerned about because it seems as though he is usually not enough to close out a game depending on what you are playing against, plus paying 7 life turn 4 or later to draw cards seems like too much at that stage, especially against aggro decks.
I'm going to come up with one final list that I'll post here first. Then I'll test and sleeve up the deck for a couple Modern tournaments at my LGS in the coming weeks. There are good players and plenty of tier 1 decks, so this field should be an accurate bellwether of how the deck stacks up against the macro meta. Then I'll report back and update Capt. Nick's matchups page.
Thanks, y'all!
@theMonster - I could see keeping Griselbrand if you were running it with Goryo's Vengeance. That way you get 7 "free" cards from his Lifelink+ability. Plus it's a bit cheaper than Unburial Rites albeit a one time deal. But then you are moving into a different deck type completely. Maybe just some food for thought for a future direction to go with the deck.
Soon I'm gonna post the list I'm testing next week. Gotta mull over some o' that Vengeance tech!
It will be. Raven's Crime, Smallpox, and Liliana of the Veil will be great with this.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Until then, here's the Reanimator list I'm going to test this week:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Arid Mesa
1 Raging Ravine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Sun Titan
4 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (23)
4 Faithless Looting
2 Raven's Crime
2 Flame Jab
2 Lightning Axe
2 Pyroclasm
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Mulch
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Deathmark
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dragon's Claw
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Stony Silence
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Some things I'm thinking about:
- EDIT: Gonna play the Flame Jabs after all. I think they serve a different purpose than more card-efficient answers like Lightning Axe (which is an instant-speed answer to T1 Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Tarmogoyf and Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch). The two cards can coexist. Can never have too much removal in this format, right?
- The mana base hurts, and I've found myself wanting to fetch for a painless white source. I can see situations where drawing a Plains in the opener could bungle our plans, but I want to try it.
- I want to play a card like Smallpox, but I often want to start with R mana for Faithless Looting or Lightning Axe to kill Deathrite Shaman, making turn 2 Pox awkward. At least with Liliana of the Veil I can run out BB on turns 2 and 3.
- Sun Titan, in theory, will be able to get dredged Lilianas and Seismic Assaults into play if I can't find Borborygmos Enraged. Just some added insurance. Plus, I can hard cast it if I need to.
- Anyone think Ajani Vengeant could have a place in this list?
- The sideboard probably needs work, but I'll start with that and see what I need after playing games.
Also, a light aside, I play the Exodus art Seismic Assault. How 'bout y'all?
@ theMonster: Looks like a good place to start at. I hope testing goes well for you. Ajani Vengeant is definitely a good card but outside of that, it doesn't do a ton with the other cards in your deck. Maybe as a sideboard card to bring in against Mid-Range decks? If you feel you really need to run him. I think you'd be fine without though.
I run Exodus Assaults in my deck but I have a foil 8th Edition for EDH decks. Original Ravnica Loams as well. But I was working on getting the Legacy Loam deck together before Modern became a thing. So I've had the cards for awhile. Haha.
I played my RUG ControLoam deck at a Modern tournament yesterday. Took second place. I technically never lost but I went to time playing against a durdly UW Control deck. Game 1 I dug through 38 cards and didn't find a single Loam and ended up losing to a resolved Sphinx's Revelation. Ground out the second game. Then went to turns game 3. I was going to win too. Just didn't have time. Also played against a Big Boros brew and BW Tokens. With both of them being essentially "fair" decks, getting Assault online was pretty much game over for them. Infect took first place, but I'm sure I'd do well against that. I never got to play him though. Merfolk showed up at my shop now which I'm genuinely worried about. Haha.