I think you should run at least 10 Fetches in your land base. They work really well with Loam, Lynx and Knight and will add a bit more consistency. If you are running a bunch of creatures that survive through Pyroclasm, I think it might be worth looking into running some 'Clasms of your own mainboard. Maybe over a Lightning Bolt and a Lion/Ape.
I'm not particularly enamored with Waves of Aggression. You're trying to win with a bunch of vanilla 2/3s, which aren't particularly strong later on in a game. Giving yourself an extra attack step won't help them punch through a wall of blockers or bigger creatures.
There's a handful of lands I would recommend trying out. Gavony Township, as well as Slayer's Stronghold. You get to tutor for them with Knight and they give you some decent utility. Township can definitely win games, and Stronghold will let your smaller guys trade up. Dryad Arbor might also have some decent utility. You can tutor it up for some instant speed chump blocking, or you can sac it to Knight after blocking and tutor for something else. Horizon Canopy gives you some card draw if you're flooding on lands. Skarrg, The Rage Pits might also be worth looking into. Teetering Peaks gives you some "burn" in response to an unblocked attacker. The new Scry lands could be useful but probably too slow. Hideaway lands might be interesting as well. Depends on how big your Knights get regularly though, since Mosswort Bridge is probably the most directly useful one.
Yeah I know about those lands just not to sure on how many colorless sources I would want to run. I haven't had a lot of experiences with 3 color mana bases so any advice I can get is great. I agree on the fetches I'm just a little reluctant to shell out too much on lands, but I should probably just suck it up as they'll always be good. And yeah running so many vanilla 1 drops can lead to weak late games, but I figure that faithless looting can just cycle them away. I do agree on waves seeming kind of weak. What would pyroclasm be good against if I were to main deck it?
I've actually been liking goblin guide more, so I'm gonna throw it back in there.
I'm working on a GR Wildfire deck and I've found Pyroclasm to be useful against many decks in modern. Most of the creatures in the format have low toughness, so most aggro strategies are weak to it. Jund, Hate Bears, Soul Sisters, etc. It isn't amazing against everything but having some MB tech against Geist of St. Traft and Bogle isn't terrible.
I've really like Goblin Guide in my RUG list. He pushes through a lot of damage for very little investment. I like your list. I don't know if Kessig Wolf Run is that strong for your build. I generally find myself sticking around 3-4 lands in play with my deck. With the fetches, your color fixing should be fine. You don't have to run Fire-Lit Thicket though. Nothing in your deck needs the double Green. So as long as you fetch for the right shocks, you shouldn't have trouble hitting Assault on turn 3. I could see running 2 Rugged Prairie though. It works with your Lightning Helixes. You could cut a Plains for another Ghost Quarter. I really like having access to 3 MB. Not that it has to be a norm for the deck but, just because of Tron, I'd want at least 3 somewhere in your 75.
I'm working on a GR Wildfire deck and I've found Pyroclasm to be useful against many decks in modern. Most of the creatures in the format have low toughness, so most aggro strategies are weak to it. Jund, Hate Bears, Soul Sisters, etc. It isn't amazing against everything but having some MB tech against Geist of St. Traft and Bogle isn't terrible.
I've really like Goblin Guide in my RUG list. He pushes through a lot of damage for very little investment. I like your list. I don't know if Kessig Wolf Run is that strong for your build. I generally find myself sticking around 3-4 lands in play with my deck. With the fetches, your color fixing should be fine. You don't have to run Fire-Lit Thicket though. Nothing in your deck needs the double Green. So as long as you fetch for the right shocks, you shouldn't have trouble hitting Assault on turn 3. I could see running 2 Rugged Prairie though. It works with your Lightning Helixes. You could cut a Plains for another Ghost Quarter. I really like having access to 3 MB. Not that it has to be a norm for the deck but, just because of Tron, I'd want at least 3 somewhere in your 75.
Solid point on rugged prairie and fire-lit thicket considering all the 1 drops are red/white it's good even on turn 2. I've been seeing a lot of merfolk lately, so pyroclasm does seem like it would be solid. With clasm maybe I should go 4 apes 3 guides? Also the Vigilance on Slayers' Stronghold seems crazy good with Knight of the Reliquary, so that's probably the Innistrad land I'm going to use.
Merfolk is tough. Pyroclasm isn't fantastic there because the lords pump their guys to x/3s and bigger. Otherwise you are only taking out one or two of their guys. Engineered Explosives is a bit better in that match up. And I'd say keep 4 Guide. He is really solid even if you do have to clasm him away a couple turns later. He will lose a bit of his utility further on in the game anyways.
I could see playing Commune in a more creature heavy GR variant. It works well with Eternal Witness and being able to dig for Assault is definitely nice. I think the 3 color deck lists are a bit too tight on slots to fit it in but straight GR probably could find a place for it. It's an interesting effect and doesn't seem bad though.
Put the deck together and ran a few tests. Pyroclasm has been really solid I might even want 3. Steppe Lynx while good can often be dead, so I might drop them for Loam Lion. Lightning Helix hasn't done much not sure if I should drop them or bump them up to 4 as the life gain is the best part of it. Knight of the Reliquary often needs some sort of evasion, so I'm gonna try Kessig Wolf Run.
Put the deck together and ran a few tests. Pyroclasm has been really solid I might even want 3. Steppe Lynx while good can often be dead, so I might drop them for Loam Lion. Lightning Helix hasn't done much not sure if I should drop them or bump them up to 4 as the life gain is the best part of it. Knight of the Reliquary often needs some sort of evasion, so I'm gonna try Kessig Wolf Run.
Sejiri steppe could be the evasion you need. Especially since you have slayer's stronghold to give vigilance so you can attack then tap him to fetch steppe, but I like kessig wolf run since trample is much better.
I'm thinking of going a more controlling route with naya loam my list seems too split between zoo and assault loam where I have good starts, but trail off around turn 4/5. Knight of the Reliquary has been awesome with Life from the Loam. I almost always want to see pyroclasm, so I might bump it up or add Anger of the Gods/Volcanic Fallout. Here's a rough draft.
I like the look of that list. Since you're dropping Steppe Lynx, you can probably go back to just 8 fetches. Helix may not be necessary as a 4-of. You could drop a couple of them for the MB Path to Exile to help diversify your removal suite a bit. And the obligatory recommendation of Goyf but I know you're trying to work around them. Haha. I'd love to hear details about how playtesting is going for you.
I currently play the creatureless version. Aside from getting destroyed by hate bears yesterday (+1 Liliana, completely forgot wilt-leaf liege was a card) I have been pretty happy with it. I changed it around a bunch and I found that it was pretty bad after changes. If you can look at modern top 8 decks from MTGO I am running a variant of Jabberwocky's list. I changed the sideboard slightly in reaction to b/w tokens being a deck of choice for a few at my local meta. I think Raven's crime count needs to be higher than inquisiton. i actually tried a full set of inquisition and I was highly underwhelmed. I will post the deck list for you to check out with some thoughts on a few things.
Spells 32
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pyroclasm
3 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
4 Smallpox
Sideboard 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Volcanic Fallout
For the sideboard I copied most of that players board. I added the 2 engineered explosives for tokens and aggro elves.
I added abrupt decay for rest in peace, storm and other various annoying permanents such as anthem effects (intangible virtue, honor of the pure).
I added 2 ghost quarters for the tron match up
The fallouts are for elves, tokens and hate bears.
I think the only change I made to the main board is the numbers on faithless looting and desperate ravings. I just like having the turn 1 card selection spell. Sets me up to pitch some lands I can return on turn 2 and then I am able to have extra lands for when I drop an assault turn 3. Raven's crime is a complete beast against control and combo decks, so I would suggest 3 crime and 2 inquisition as that list had. It has been incredible for me.
I think I'm gonna test with the creature-less version since It makes the opponents creature removals useless and has easier access to Its key cards. I just have a fear that it will have trouble winning in a timely manner, maybe I'll add some more manlands to get the action going. I'll try more Raven's Crime and see how they work for me.
It most certainly takes a few turns to assemble the win, but it does a much better job of denying your opponent of resources and controlling them, either into submission or until you assemble the win and get it done.
I updated the Primer a bit. I added a contemporary Jund Loam list, a straight RG Aggro Loam list that recently placed on MTGO, and added redflare's Naya rough draft. If there is anything else you guys would like me to add, let me know. I still need to get the Match Up section rolling. I'm thinking of just doing a general Great, Good, Poor, Bad for how the engine deals with different archetypes. Does that sound useful?
@Rawbean: I think you'll be happy with either the changes you suggested to your original list or trying out the Creatureless build. You definitely want to have 3-4 Raven's Crime MB. That cards just too good for the Jund builds. You might want to look into using Young Pyromancer if you go back to the creature build. It has been doing some good work for people recently.
My naya list wasn't working too well for me, so I took a little break to play zoo for a bit. Now I'm back to trying to get it to work with a little help from my newly acquired tarmogoyfs. Bought them since they're at $65 a piece on mtgo, so I figured now was the best time to grab them. Any way Here's my revised naya list with a small black splash. Mana base might need some work.
My naya list wasn't working too well for me, so I took a little break to play zoo for a bit. Now I'm back to trying to get it to work with a little help from my newly acquired tarmogoyfs. Bought them since they're at $65 a piece on mtgo, so I figured now was the best time to grab them. Any way Here's my revised naya list with a small black splash. Mana base might need some work.
I wouldn't bother with lingering souls. I would probably just drop black overall and run young pyromancer. Souls is pretty underwhelming over all. I might drop a lightning bolt for an additional flame jab. Seems better that way.
Also... The primer looks great so far capt nick. If you want input or help with match ups let me know. I have everything except goyfs so I can sleeve up most versions and test match ups to figure out how they seem
Yeah you might be right about pyromancer. I need to test both as they are quite different cards. Pyromancer is probably the stronger card it combos with flame jab and loam, as well as giving you a token for a lot of your other spells. Souls has the benefit of being milled with loam, or pitched to faithless looting for free flyers. It really depends on how aggressive I want to be, but right now I'm leaning towards winning in the late game. Tarmogoyf plus Knight is just too much for a lot of decks to deal with. They either act as walls until I get assault active, or just kill the opponent in a few swings. Goyf really is a necessity for the naya version. Here's my latest list.
It's kind of rough, but it's been winning for me. I want to work on the sideboard a little bit. I'm still running Blood Crypt as it doesn't seem t hurt me and allows for more sideboard options. The Tarfire in the main is just to grow my goyf out of dismember range.
I understand where you're coming from about Goyf I think you'd be better served by any of the awesome Planeswalkers in naya colors. They give you utility as well as buffing Goyf even more. Domri and Ajani, Caller of the Pride are solid as 3-drops. Elspeth and Ajani Vengent are good in a controlish build. Chandra Pyromaster is decent as well. I'd look into those before running a random Shock.
Also, you are probably missing out on the toolbox abilities on Knight. Definitely get a filter land in there. And probably a Horizon Canopy as well. I doubt you'll need 10 fetches. 8 should be plenty. And don't forgot about Sejiri Steppe. It's a free counterspell for you.
I don't know if I'm sold on the black splash. I don't think you gain much from the Inquisitions. You'd probably be better off with Grand Abolishers or Ethersworn Canonists depending on what you wanted the Inquisitions for originally.
You should probably run more Lilianas mainboard. She is insanely good but if you're having budget concerns I could see how that would restrict that. I'd aim for at least 2 though but ideally 3. I'd also get Pulse mainboard as well. Some extra removal would be good. Smallpox and Imp seem unnecessary. As does the Dakmor Salvage as a 2-of. You shouldn't need to dredge yourself all that much. It's only once you have Assault in play that you want to be drawing the same Loam turn after turn. If you're worried about gaining life, Kitchen Finks is a really good inclusion. Just be aware of how many 3 drops you have and how that affects your curve. I'd also recommend trying to fit some Lightning Bolts in there for opposing Deathrites but I don't know if you'd have room for them and the other cards seem a bit more important to your strategy.
I understand where you're coming from about Goyf I think you'd be better served by any of the awesome Planeswalkers in naya colors. They give you utility as well as buffing Goyf even more. Domri and Ajani, Caller of the Pride are solid as 3-drops. Elspeth and Ajani Vengent are good in a controlish build. Chandra Pyromaster is decent as well. I'd look into those before running a random Shock.
Also, you are probably missing out on the toolbox abilities on Knight. Definitely get a filter land in there. And probably a Horizon Canopy as well. I doubt you'll need 10 fetches. 8 should be plenty. And don't forgot about Sejiri Steppe. It's a free counterspell for you.
I don't know if I'm sold on the black splash. I don't think you gain much from the Inquisitions. You'd probably be better off with Grand Abolishers or Ethersworn Canonists depending on what you wanted the Inquisitions for originally.
The inquisitions are for control or combo so you're probably right about that. Still Rakdos charm is the real reason to have 1 black source because it's so versatile. It's good against any graveyard deck, it's another removal spell for affinity and a way to kill vials, and finally the ability that seems most irrelevant just straight up beats splinter twin when they combo off.
I'll have to test some different lands, but more often than not I'm just swinging with Knight to finish the game in 2 turns cause she's almost always a 7/7 or better.
Rakdos Charm is definitely spicy. But I don't know if a 1-of sideboard card is worth it. If it isn't hindering, then I guess it isn't a huge deal. Just seems unnecessary to me and that's usually what I try to cut when refining a deck. If it works for you though, then I won't stop you. Haha.
And on Knight not being used for the utility, I understand where you're coming from but given the option of having access to it but not needing to use it sounds better than not having it if you need it.
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Modern:
RUG Forever A Loam
Counter CatUWRG
RGTitan Fall
QuestSteelUW
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I'm not particularly enamored with Waves of Aggression. You're trying to win with a bunch of vanilla 2/3s, which aren't particularly strong later on in a game. Giving yourself an extra attack step won't help them punch through a wall of blockers or bigger creatures.
There's a handful of lands I would recommend trying out. Gavony Township, as well as Slayer's Stronghold. You get to tutor for them with Knight and they give you some decent utility. Township can definitely win games, and Stronghold will let your smaller guys trade up. Dryad Arbor might also have some decent utility. You can tutor it up for some instant speed chump blocking, or you can sac it to Knight after blocking and tutor for something else. Horizon Canopy gives you some card draw if you're flooding on lands. Skarrg, The Rage Pits might also be worth looking into. Teetering Peaks gives you some "burn" in response to an unblocked attacker. The new Scry lands could be useful but probably too slow. Hideaway lands might be interesting as well. Depends on how big your Knights get regularly though, since Mosswort Bridge is probably the most directly useful one.
I've actually been liking goblin guide more, so I'm gonna throw it back in there.
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
Creatures 15
3 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Stomping Ground
2 Scared Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Path to Exile
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Torpor Orb
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Back to Nature
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
I think I'm just going to have to test to see what the best combination of creatures and spells is.
I've really like Goblin Guide in my RUG list. He pushes through a lot of damage for very little investment. I like your list. I don't know if Kessig Wolf Run is that strong for your build. I generally find myself sticking around 3-4 lands in play with my deck. With the fetches, your color fixing should be fine. You don't have to run Fire-Lit Thicket though. Nothing in your deck needs the double Green. So as long as you fetch for the right shocks, you shouldn't have trouble hitting Assault on turn 3. I could see running 2 Rugged Prairie though. It works with your Lightning Helixes. You could cut a Plains for another Ghost Quarter. I really like having access to 3 MB. Not that it has to be a norm for the deck but, just because of Tron, I'd want at least 3 somewhere in your 75.
Solid point on rugged prairie and fire-lit thicket considering all the 1 drops are red/white it's good even on turn 2. I've been seeing a lot of merfolk lately, so pyroclasm does seem like it would be solid. With clasm maybe I should go 4 apes 3 guides? Also the Vigilance on Slayers' Stronghold seems crazy good with Knight of the Reliquary, so that's probably the Innistrad land I'm going to use.
3 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
Creatures 15
3 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Stomping Ground
2 Scared Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Rugged Prairie
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Path to Exile
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Torpor Orb
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Back to Nature
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
I might cut a mountain for another utility land not sure if it should be Gavony Township, or a manland.
On a side note Commune with the Gods might be a relevant card for loam decks in general. Any thoughts?
I could see playing Commune in a more creature heavy GR variant. It works well with Eternal Witness and being able to dig for Assault is definitely nice. I think the 3 color deck lists are a bit too tight on slots to fit it in but straight GR probably could find a place for it. It's an interesting effect and doesn't seem bad though.
Sejiri steppe could be the evasion you need. Especially since you have slayer's stronghold to give vigilance so you can attack then tap him to fetch steppe, but I like kessig wolf run since trample is much better.
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
3 Pyroclasm
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
Planeswalkers 2
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Goblin Guide
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Lands 25
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Stomping Ground
2 Scared Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Kessing Wolf Run
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Path to Exile
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Torpor Orb
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Golgari Brownscale
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Back to Nature
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
Maybe the paths should be in the Main.
Lands 28
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Spells 32
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pyroclasm
3 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
4 Smallpox
Sideboard 15
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Volcanic Fallout
For the sideboard I copied most of that players board. I added the 2 engineered explosives for tokens and aggro elves.
I added abrupt decay for rest in peace, storm and other various annoying permanents such as anthem effects (intangible virtue, honor of the pure).
I added 2 ghost quarters for the tron match up
The fallouts are for elves, tokens and hate bears.
I think the only change I made to the main board is the numbers on faithless looting and desperate ravings. I just like having the turn 1 card selection spell. Sets me up to pitch some lands I can return on turn 2 and then I am able to have extra lands for when I drop an assault turn 3. Raven's crime is a complete beast against control and combo decks, so I would suggest 3 crime and 2 inquisition as that list had. It has been incredible for me.
It most certainly takes a few turns to assemble the win, but it does a much better job of denying your opponent of resources and controlling them, either into submission or until you assemble the win and get it done.
@Rawbean: I think you'll be happy with either the changes you suggested to your original list or trying out the Creatureless build. You definitely want to have 3-4 Raven's Crime MB. That cards just too good for the Jund builds. You might want to look into using Young Pyromancer if you go back to the creature build. It has been doing some good work for people recently.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Pyroclasm
2 Flame Jab
I wouldn't bother with lingering souls. I would probably just drop black overall and run young pyromancer. Souls is pretty underwhelming over all. I might drop a lightning bolt for an additional flame jab. Seems better that way.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Raging Ravine
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
3 Flame Jab
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
3 Path to Exile
2 Pyroclasm
1 Revoke Existence
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
It's kind of rough, but it's been winning for me. I want to work on the sideboard a little bit. I'm still running Blood Crypt as it doesn't seem t hurt me and allows for more sideboard options. The Tarfire in the main is just to grow my goyf out of dismember range.
Also, you are probably missing out on the toolbox abilities on Knight. Definitely get a filter land in there. And probably a Horizon Canopy as well. I doubt you'll need 10 fetches. 8 should be plenty. And don't forgot about Sejiri Steppe. It's a free counterspell for you.
I don't know if I'm sold on the black splash. I don't think you gain much from the Inquisitions. You'd probably be better off with Grand Abolishers or Ethersworn Canonists depending on what you wanted the Inquisitions for originally.
The inquisitions are for control or combo so you're probably right about that. Still Rakdos charm is the real reason to have 1 black source because it's so versatile. It's good against any graveyard deck, it's another removal spell for affinity and a way to kill vials, and finally the ability that seems most irrelevant just straight up beats splinter twin when they combo off.
I'll have to test some different lands, but more often than not I'm just swinging with Knight to finish the game in 2 turns cause she's almost always a 7/7 or better.
And on Knight not being used for the utility, I understand where you're coming from but given the option of having access to it but not needing to use it sounds better than not having it if you need it.