That's an option, although I can't tell for sure as I never played with the RUG version of the deck.
Have you tried Haakon, stromgald scourge and nameless inversion for added win con and creature control? I would drop the 4 ghast and 2 pyroclasm for 3 haakon and 3 inversion. I am not sold the main board sweeper is necessary.
Kaixo Ally! Although it may be playable, I don't think it's viable. Fetchlands are almost mandatory in order to fix our manabase.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I was trying to make a Loam Naya deck, with Countryside Crusher and Knight of the reliquary as creatures and maybe young pyromancer. The problem is I have no fetches (no modern playable fetches). Its still viable to play Loam without fetchlands?
If you make your mana base solid enough to support colors without fetches and still feel ok with it then sure. Fetches are ideal because they enable life from the loam sooner while fixing your mana. Without fetchlands you may end up with out enough lands to target with loam
@Xour: You could look into the RUG or RG lists that have been doing well recently. They work with Young Pyromancer and other creatures to provide two game plans. Goyf isn't necessarily needed in those decks but he just has great synergy with the deck. You could try a creature heavy GR deck that just happens to have Loam and Assault. I can see why graveyard hate would be giving your current list a lot of trouble though.
@Ally: Fetch lands are super important for this deck's functionality. They let you put lands into play and then have a land to grab back with Loam. So on top of color fixing (which is super important for a three color deck looking to drop a RRR spell on turn three) the fetches provide a lot of necessary utility to the deck. You could probably get away with a straight GR list with Terramorphic Expanse type fetches but getting Naya to work, especially with Knight of the Reliquary, is going to need the actual fetch lands unfortunately. :/
@Capt. Nick: I'll give the RUG / RG list a go. Thanks for the suggestions.
@Ally: My aunt teaches Euskara, I should learn as well!
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I don't think I would try it. It doesn't really fit into any type of curve for the deck. If you drop an assault turn 3 you usually wanna follow up with loam or other cards turn 4 because chances are that your opponent probably has creatures on the board that you want to answer. It could be a neat way to lock someone out I just don't see if it would actually improve our games any except against UWR control and that is only if you land one on them. As for tron you are better off chaining ghost quarters because if you wait until turn 4 to cast this and they already have tron set up, it is probably going to be an uphill battle at that point. Ghost quarter still helps to deal with the greedy control mana base since they only run a few basics.
As far as I know I don't think anyone has tried it. It's an interesting effect but it is no Devestating Dreams . Four mana is a lot of mana and don't have a way to recover from saccing your own lands as well as in legacy without Mox Diamond. The effect is strong but without testing it, I can't say if it would be worth it. However, with my experience running Cryptic Command, 4 drops are extremely unweildy in this deck and unless it straight wins the game, I don't think I'd ever play anything that costs more than 3.
So, I am currently running the creatureless Jund splash blue list. The issue that I have is surviving against hyper aggro and losing to control if I can't land an assault. I had a thought today about running Pack Rat as another win condition. We have enough stuff in our hand to constantly be pumping out rats, the BB requirement it nothing for the deck, they quickly outpace all creature decks if we can stabilize, and they can close out a game quickly only really being wiped to something like Wrath or Supreme Verdict. Any opinions?
So, I am currently running the creatureless Jund splash blue list. The issue that I have is surviving against hyper aggro and losing to control if I can't land an assault. I had a thought today about running Pack Rat as another win condition. We have enough stuff in our hand to constantly be pumping out rats, the BB requirement it nothing for the deck, they quickly outpace all creature decks if we can stabilize, and they can close out a game quickly only really being wiped to something like Wrath or Supreme Verdict. Any opinions?
Losing to control? Raven's crime does massive amounts of work against control. You should be looking for it when you play them.
The problem with adding Pack Rat as an alt win con in your deck means that you'll turn on the removal that your opponent has which defeats the purpose of the creatureless build. Not to mention you'll need 5 mana in order to not get immediately blown out by a removal spell. While it isn't impossible for the deck to get to that mana (especially with Loam and fetches) it isn't exactly timely and it isn't necessarily game altering. If you are having trouble with aggro in your meta, run more Pyroclasm effects MB. If you aren't running the full 4 of Assault, I'd highly recommend it. We are, to some extent, a combo deck and we need to see our key cards to win. I tried for a long time only running 3 and I constantly felt like I was spending too much time durdling and digging to interact effectively with the opponent in a meaningful way. You could look into Zombie Infestation or running more Flame Jabs as alternate ideas for closing out games.
If you post your list and give some idea of how both aggro and control are giving you trouble, we could probably help you out more.
So far, I like the sideboard a lot except for the Illness and Orb spots, but I need something to contest Pod and Twin. For the most part, the board feels like it does what it needs to do. I kind of want to test Pack Rat in the board. After taking game one and them removing all of their spot removal, transforming from Assault Loam to Rat Loam could be fun, but I don't know if it's more cute than effective. The never ending EE and Crypt shuts down many decks and is great at getting rid of a nasty rest in peace or Leyline. Dragon's Claw with flame jab is great to stabilize in the RDW match up The mana base works for me. The main deck slots don't quite feel right. . I find that I never want to play the Desperate Ravings in fear of loosing something that I need to keep in the hand like an Assault that I have no way of getting back, but I don't know if other card draw is really there. To be honest, I thought about giving Wild Guess a try over the ravings to stop the randomness, but we loose the instant speed. If I do take out Ravings, it can get rid of the blue dependence, but makes EE that much weaker.
The issue I have is in the American Control match-up. I end up doing a lot of damage to myself and then they just burn me out. If I do manage to land an assault, they just cryptic is back and hold up a hard counter for it. I also have had trouble in the Merfolk match up. Once they get two lords out, there isn't too much I can do and if I don't draw smallpox, I kind of just loose. Kira also hurts a hell of a lot in the match up. Any thoughts?
Sorry for the delayed response. I actually typed up a whole big thing a couple days ago but due to an accidental button click, it all disappeared on me. Been trying to work up the gumption to type it up again. So... short-ish version.
Pack Rat is most likely going to be too cute. I don't like the amount of mana you need to invest into it to get it rolling. Especially when Abrupt Decay, Bolt and those versatile "creature removal plus" spells will stick around post board that also answer Pack Rat. If you are really feeling it, give it a go. I'd love to be proven wrong in the name of pushing the deck forward. Let us know your results.
Desperate Ravings technically shouldn't give you too many problems as long as you have a decent number of cards in hand. You could always run 4 Assaults to help you dig to them faster as well as lessening the likelihood that you'll pitch one to a Ravings. If you draw into two, you'll only be able to pitch one. I understand the concern but if I remember correctly, Ravings was the card that really powered up the Creatureless builds.
You shouldn't be taking that much damage when playing against control. They'll play as slow as you let them. If you keep laying tap lands or fetching EoT, they'll follow suit. You're running instants, and other powerful spells. Bait a counter on their turn and slam a threat. You aren't going to kill them before they can stabilize, so you have to play the attrition game. I've never really had a huge issue with WUR control to be honest.
Merfolk is a pain and I'm not really sure how we deal with it. We can only handle so many X/4s and they make a lot of them. The best tech I've seen is Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and casting Nameless Inversion repeatedly. It removes their Merfolk type, dodging the lord buffs and giving the x/2 bodies +3/-3 until EoT. If you can make room for it, I'd give it a try but it is a pretty big SB investment for a specific match up. I generally just keep my fingers crossed that I don't have to play against it. It isn't all that popular as it gets rolled by a couple Tier 1 decks. So I don't worry too much about it and hope that EE and keeping them off of Aether Vial is enough to get there.
Kira is annoying, but you just focus your removal on her to begin with. Two lands from an Assault kills her off. Not really that difficult to set up, just eats up a turn.
So I piloted aggro loam for the first time in many weeks and had rather depressing results. I pilot the creatureless jund list as piloted by jabberwokki on mtgo. I made a few changes and I definitely think it was for the worse. I dropped the desperate ravings for more discard, adding 2 inquisition of Kozilek. I also added an abrupt decay and 2 engineered explosives main board. I am going to admit that desperate ravings is completely necessary. Digging through your deck when necessary and at instant speed can go very far. My only dig now is 4 faithless looting and I had multiple games where the extra digging would've essentially won it for me. It was a lot of bad luck and perhaps bad keeping on hands.
Round 1 I lost to an instant reanimater build. This match went to turn 18? We both hit and flashback on 3 faithless looting each before he was able to assemble his combo and win. I had put 2 sideboard surgical extraction which nabbed goyro's vengeance and grislebrand. He was still able to pull out through the breach and Emrakul. Much to my grief which I could not have done anything about seeing over half my deck and 1 of my 4 life from the loams was still about 6 cards away. The other three were in the bottom 10 cards. This is why I partially leave this poor run as bad luck as this occurred later against b/w tokens. I had the assault and his board locked until he was able to drop 3 anthem effects before he found his 3 white source and was able to cast 2 spectral procession after about 8 turns. I have gone back to the original list which I topped with every week for over a month and maybe make a few changes from there. Having the mainboard pyroclasms just seemed underwhelming and having the extra dig never seemed necessary and now I understand they were key cards in the deck.
I apologize this is somewhat in rant form, it has been a few days and I'm still trying to come to a final conclusion as to what the exact list I would like to pilot next Saturday. I also wanted to make sure others had more knowledge to take into account when deciding on their builds.
@redflare - Both of those lists look like good starting points. I'd be interested to hear how the second one works out for you. Loam with an active Ascension sounds delightfully brutal. Haha. The only thing I don't get is why Kher Keep? It doesn't really advance your plan or do anything more than chump block for 3 mana. Might another Ghost Quarter just be better there?
Also, given the amount of burn you have going right now, I don't think DRS nor Scavenging Ooze should really give you too much issue. They haven't been crippling for my deck and we already run a ton of removal. I feel like that slot could be utilized for something interactive or proactive in another way for either build you have. As opposed to over specializing on a single match up.
@mykatdied - Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you. Nothing to feel bad about while trying out a significant change. It could have just as easily been a good switch and been well worth the time. Just keep trying new things.
Sorry I haven't been adding much to the conversation lately. I've been spending most of my free time working on another brew. Haven't had the chance to really playtest my Loam build.
Here's a recent, well-placing deck for some discussion:
Straight GR build. 1-of Rakdos Cackler seems a bit odd. Probably just filling a flex spot. The sideboard has some interesting choices. I have a couple days off coming up here, I'm going to work on typing up a straight GR section for the primer since it looks like it is becoming more popular. Especially as an effective and more budget friendly version of the deck.
aggro loam in modern is my pet deck. I will continue to play it and test it until I drop. I just wanna make sure I report any changes I make and test so that other people will know from my experience what seems to work and what doesn't.
Please someone help me with this Creaturelss Jund Loam deck. I'm on a pretty tight budget, I know the mana base could be better, but it isn't THAT bad, still I think it is the thing I need the most help with. This doesn't have to be necessarily competitive, I won't be using this deck against tier 1 decks, and it would be in an environment where a casual mulligan is permitted. That being said, I can't afford fetches or shock lands. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Please someone help me with this Creaturelss Jund Loam deck. I'm on a pretty tight budget, I know the mana base could be better, but it isn't THAT bad, still I think it is the thing I need the most help with. This doesn't have to be necessarily competitive, I won't be using this deck against tier 1 decks, and it would be in an environment where a casual mulligan is permitted. That being said, I can't afford fetches or shock lands. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Graven Cairns really does a lot of work and is not entirely expensive. As a 4 of it really helps smooth out a lot of my draws. You coudl consider sign in blood as secondary card draw to faithless looting. One issue I see without fetchlands is that life from the loam isn't as live as it can be. It is still fine, you will get lands into your yard, but loam becomes lives much earlier with all the fetchlands most people tend to play. That is my advice as of now. If you have access you could conisder young pyromancer and adding another flame jab in place of a lightning bolt and another raven's crime in place of an inquisition. You wanna get the most value out of all your card advantage with life from the loam.
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Have you tried Haakon, stromgald scourge and nameless inversion for added win con and creature control? I would drop the 4 ghast and 2 pyroclasm for 3 haakon and 3 inversion. I am not sold the main board sweeper is necessary.
If you make your mana base solid enough to support colors without fetches and still feel ok with it then sure. Fetches are ideal because they enable life from the loam sooner while fixing your mana. Without fetchlands you may end up with out enough lands to target with loam
@Ally: Fetch lands are super important for this deck's functionality. They let you put lands into play and then have a land to grab back with Loam. So on top of color fixing (which is super important for a three color deck looking to drop a RRR spell on turn three) the fetches provide a lot of necessary utility to the deck. You could probably get away with a straight GR list with Terramorphic Expanse type fetches but getting Naya to work, especially with Knight of the Reliquary, is going to need the actual fetch lands unfortunately. :/
@Ally: My aunt teaches Euskara, I should learn as well!
I don't think I would try it. It doesn't really fit into any type of curve for the deck. If you drop an assault turn 3 you usually wanna follow up with loam or other cards turn 4 because chances are that your opponent probably has creatures on the board that you want to answer. It could be a neat way to lock someone out I just don't see if it would actually improve our games any except against UWR control and that is only if you land one on them. As for tron you are better off chaining ghost quarters because if you wait until turn 4 to cast this and they already have tron set up, it is probably going to be an uphill battle at that point. Ghost quarter still helps to deal with the greedy control mana base since they only run a few basics.
As far as I know I don't think anyone has tried it. It's an interesting effect but it is no Devestating Dreams . Four mana is a lot of mana and don't have a way to recover from saccing your own lands as well as in legacy without Mox Diamond. The effect is strong but without testing it, I can't say if it would be worth it. However, with my experience running Cryptic Command, 4 drops are extremely unweildy in this deck and unless it straight wins the game, I don't think I'd ever play anything that costs more than 3.
Rest in peace my one true love: Kikipod
Losing to control? Raven's crime does massive amounts of work against control. You should be looking for it when you play them.
If you post your list and give some idea of how both aggro and control are giving you trouble, we could probably help you out more.
Lands: 28
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Graven Cairns
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Raving Ravine
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
Other Spells: 32
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Faithless looting
3 Deperate Ravings
2 IoK
3 Raven's Crime
2 Pyroclasm
3 Seismic Assault
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Jab
3 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard:15
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Torpor Orb
1 Bolt
1 Batterskull
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Buried Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dragon's Claw
So far, I like the sideboard a lot except for the Illness and Orb spots, but I need something to contest Pod and Twin. For the most part, the board feels like it does what it needs to do. I kind of want to test Pack Rat in the board. After taking game one and them removing all of their spot removal, transforming from Assault Loam to Rat Loam could be fun, but I don't know if it's more cute than effective. The never ending EE and Crypt shuts down many decks and is great at getting rid of a nasty rest in peace or Leyline. Dragon's Claw with flame jab is great to stabilize in the RDW match up The mana base works for me. The main deck slots don't quite feel right. . I find that I never want to play the Desperate Ravings in fear of loosing something that I need to keep in the hand like an Assault that I have no way of getting back, but I don't know if other card draw is really there. To be honest, I thought about giving Wild Guess a try over the ravings to stop the randomness, but we loose the instant speed. If I do take out Ravings, it can get rid of the blue dependence, but makes EE that much weaker.
The issue I have is in the American Control match-up. I end up doing a lot of damage to myself and then they just burn me out. If I do manage to land an assault, they just cryptic is back and hold up a hard counter for it. I also have had trouble in the Merfolk match up. Once they get two lords out, there isn't too much I can do and if I don't draw smallpox, I kind of just loose. Kira also hurts a hell of a lot in the match up. Any thoughts?
Rest in peace my one true love: Kikipod
Pack Rat is most likely going to be too cute. I don't like the amount of mana you need to invest into it to get it rolling. Especially when Abrupt Decay, Bolt and those versatile "creature removal plus" spells will stick around post board that also answer Pack Rat. If you are really feeling it, give it a go. I'd love to be proven wrong in the name of pushing the deck forward. Let us know your results.
Desperate Ravings technically shouldn't give you too many problems as long as you have a decent number of cards in hand. You could always run 4 Assaults to help you dig to them faster as well as lessening the likelihood that you'll pitch one to a Ravings. If you draw into two, you'll only be able to pitch one. I understand the concern but if I remember correctly, Ravings was the card that really powered up the Creatureless builds.
You shouldn't be taking that much damage when playing against control. They'll play as slow as you let them. If you keep laying tap lands or fetching EoT, they'll follow suit. You're running instants, and other powerful spells. Bait a counter on their turn and slam a threat. You aren't going to kill them before they can stabilize, so you have to play the attrition game. I've never really had a huge issue with WUR control to be honest.
Merfolk is a pain and I'm not really sure how we deal with it. We can only handle so many X/4s and they make a lot of them. The best tech I've seen is Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and casting Nameless Inversion repeatedly. It removes their Merfolk type, dodging the lord buffs and giving the x/2 bodies +3/-3 until EoT. If you can make room for it, I'd give it a try but it is a pretty big SB investment for a specific match up. I generally just keep my fingers crossed that I don't have to play against it. It isn't all that popular as it gets rolled by a couple Tier 1 decks. So I don't worry too much about it and hope that EE and keeping them off of Aether Vial is enough to get there.
Kira is annoying, but you just focus your removal on her to begin with. Two lands from an Assault kills her off. Not really that difficult to set up, just eats up a turn.
4 Faithless Looting
3 Flame Jab
2 Sudden Shock
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Eternal Witness
Lands 23
4 Stomping Ground
5 Forest
4 Mountain
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Treetop Village
1 Raging Ravine
Any advice/criticism I can get is appreciated. Sudden Shock is tech vs DRS and Ooze. I also don't have a sideboard yet.
Also made this list that uses Pyromancer Ascension as a second engine with Flame Jab.
4 Faithless Looting
4 Flame Jab
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Manamorphose
3 Sudden Shock
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Eternal Witness
Lands 22
4 Stomping Ground
7 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Raging Ravine
2 Treetop Village
1 Kher Keep
Maybe Mulch wold be good?
Round 1 I lost to an instant reanimater build. This match went to turn 18? We both hit and flashback on 3 faithless looting each before he was able to assemble his combo and win. I had put 2 sideboard surgical extraction which nabbed goyro's vengeance and grislebrand. He was still able to pull out through the breach and Emrakul. Much to my grief which I could not have done anything about seeing over half my deck and 1 of my 4 life from the loams was still about 6 cards away. The other three were in the bottom 10 cards. This is why I partially leave this poor run as bad luck as this occurred later against b/w tokens. I had the assault and his board locked until he was able to drop 3 anthem effects before he found his 3 white source and was able to cast 2 spectral procession after about 8 turns. I have gone back to the original list which I topped with every week for over a month and maybe make a few changes from there. Having the mainboard pyroclasms just seemed underwhelming and having the extra dig never seemed necessary and now I understand they were key cards in the deck.
I apologize this is somewhat in rant form, it has been a few days and I'm still trying to come to a final conclusion as to what the exact list I would like to pilot next Saturday. I also wanted to make sure others had more knowledge to take into account when deciding on their builds.
Also, given the amount of burn you have going right now, I don't think DRS nor Scavenging Ooze should really give you too much issue. They haven't been crippling for my deck and we already run a ton of removal. I feel like that slot could be utilized for something interactive or proactive in another way for either build you have. As opposed to over specializing on a single match up.
@mykatdied - Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you. Nothing to feel bad about while trying out a significant change. It could have just as easily been a good switch and been well worth the time. Just keep trying new things.
Sorry I haven't been adding much to the conversation lately. I've been spending most of my free time working on another brew. Haven't had the chance to really playtest my Loam build.
Here's a recent, well-placing deck for some discussion:
3 Stomping Ground
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Raging Ravine
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Rakdos Cackler
INSTANTS and SORCERIES 19
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Flame Jab
OTHER SPELLS 3
3 Seismic Assault
2 Torpor Orb
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Molten Rain
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Obstinate Baloth
Source: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5835&d=233906
Straight GR build. 1-of Rakdos Cackler seems a bit odd. Probably just filling a flex spot. The sideboard has some interesting choices. I have a couple days off coming up here, I'm going to work on typing up a straight GR section for the primer since it looks like it is becoming more popular. Especially as an effective and more budget friendly version of the deck.
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/84249
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/83982
4x Smallpox
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Raven's Crime
4x Faithless Looting
4x Life from the Loam
3x Noxious Revival
3x Wild Guess
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Pyroclasm
2x Flame Jab
1x Blood Crypt
2x Copperline Gorge
2x Dragonskull Summit
3x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
5x Mountain
1x Raging Ravine
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Savage Lands
2x Sulfurous Springs
3x Swamp
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Graven Cairns really does a lot of work and is not entirely expensive. As a 4 of it really helps smooth out a lot of my draws. You coudl consider sign in blood as secondary card draw to faithless looting. One issue I see without fetchlands is that life from the loam isn't as live as it can be. It is still fine, you will get lands into your yard, but loam becomes lives much earlier with all the fetchlands most people tend to play. That is my advice as of now. If you have access you could conisder young pyromancer and adding another flame jab in place of a lightning bolt and another raven's crime in place of an inquisition. You wanna get the most value out of all your card advantage with life from the loam.